Hello all!
So i am new to the Tormek community and to the machine. i have watched almost every video on youtube on how to sharpen knives. with me its a hit or miss when sharpening, some are razor sharp, and others are as if i didnt do anything. with that being said do you guys have any tips for beginner sharpening? one of the problems ive been having is when knife sharpening my knife tends to get dragged by the wheel. i had two get snagged. and every other video ive watched they make it look effortless. sorry for the long message but any help is much appreciated!
Quote from: Alihussein8 on June 27, 2020, 02:59:32 AM
Hello all!
So i am new to the Tormek community and to the machine. i have watched almost every video on youtube on how to sharpen knives. with me its a hit or miss when sharpening, some are razor sharp, and others are as if i didnt do anything. with that being said do you guys have any tips for beginner sharpening? one of the problems ive been having is when knife sharpening my knife tends to get dragged by the wheel. i had two get snagged. and every other video ive watched they make it look effortless. sorry for the long message but any help is much appreciated!
I'll refer to this video, to help answer your questions...
https://youtu.be/R2ifZQOJA7k
For the knife catching, I have two thoughts. One is there's a chip or something in the stone that is catching the knife. Consider using the Stone Grader (fine) for a few seconds to make sure the stone is relatively smooth. Also, slightly round the edges, as explained around 16:25 in the video.
My second thought is too much pressure. You don't need a lot to sharpen. (This wiil be explained in the next section).
For beginners, I always suggest the basics. Mark the edge with a Sharpie, match the existing angle, create a burr, then remove the burr. So for this watch from 19:35-21:20. I suggest marking the whole edge, as explained in the video, so you can see where you're removing metal along the entire length, and insure you're sharpening all the way to the edge.
Then for sharpening, watch from 22:20-38:00. Note what he says about pressure, creating a burr, and then removing the burr. You can probably leave the stone graded fine, since you're matching the angle on the knife.
One mistake here, is not creating the burr, which may be why some knives come out sharp, and others feel like you "didn't do anything".
Stick with these basics until you can get a consistent edge on the knives you're practicing on. Not too much pressure... match the angle on the knife... create a burr, remove the burr. Once you have that down, you can move on to adjusting angles, reprofiling, etc.
That's my .02 :)
Use light pressure when honing as well. It does not take much to remove the burr left by sharpening. Also when you are honing concentrate on keeping the angle constant as you move the blade across the wheel.
In addition to the great advice above, I'd suggest getting a decent USB microscope or a very good magnifying glass.
That helped me a lot in understanding what's going on on the edge, and often revealed the reason for the results not being as good as expected.
Sharpen with the wheel turning away from the knife edge and it will not catch. The sharpening action is less aggressive and will take longer but it will not catch the edge. Keep the stone trued and graded. Do not let it glaze over, use the corner of the stone grader to rough it up if you need to. You need a rough stone to grind with. I don't mean the roughness caused by the stone grader that makes the stone like 200 grit but I mean a fresh surface. As you sharpen the stone clogs with metal shavings. Keep it clean by grading and or truing. The truing will not be done constantly but the grading can be done more than once per edge being sharpened.
Quote from: jeffs55 on June 28, 2020, 01:36:47 AM
Sharpen with the wheel turning away from the knife edge and it will not catch. The sharpening action is less aggressive and will take longer but it will not catch the edge. Keep the stone trued and graded. Do not let it glaze over, use the corner of the stone grader to rough it up if you need to. You need a rough stone to grind with. I don't mean the roughness caused by the stone grader that makes the stone like 200 grit but I mean a fresh surface. As you sharpen the stone clogs with metal shavings. Keep it clean by grading and or truing. The truing will not be done constantly but the grading can be done more than once per edge being sharpened.
Your post reminds me of the old joke... Doc it hurts when I do this.... well then don't do that. :D
I don't think "sharpening away" is really a solution, it just avoids the issue. Sharpening "edge leading" (into the stone) gives better results.
And I have to say, my experience is different with pretty much the rest of your post... the SG stone wear + combined with running thru a water bath stays pretty fresh and rarely "glazes over", at least on knives. (Just look at the magnet or debris in the trough at the end of a sharpening) (The SB stone might have some issues in this area). And for knives, keeping the stone graded fine or just leaving it in it's "natural state" (between coarse and fine) works well, expect for reprofile or repairs. No need to continually grade it "more than once" per knife. Especially when matching the edge while learning... you shouldn't have to grade the stone very often... although it's a good technique to learn as experience grows what the different grit finishes will do.
Your situation with your knife reminds me of the hand cut dovetail class I took several years ago. As part of the class, each of us made a Shaker candle box with dovetailed corners. The student dovetails, including mine, were not superb. Our instructor, Ernie Conover, told us that if we made fifteen boxes, the last few would be fine.
In your case, as you approach knife number fifteen, your sharpening technique will be fine. You can do it; it just requires some practice.
Ken
i thought the stone might have not been true. so i ended up purchasing the truing tool. and i was surprised at how not round the wheel was lol. when i use the stone to change the grit to "220" and attempt to sharpen the knife, it feels as if the knife is trying to get pulled. i used some hot glue and glued some earth magnets on both sided of the water trough and it seems to do great.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 27, 2020, 01:59:23 PM
Quote from: Alihussein8 on June 27, 2020, 02:59:32 AM
Hello all!
So i am new to the Tormek community and to the machine. i have watched almost every video on youtube on how to sharpen knives. with me its a hit or miss when sharpening, some are razor sharp, and others are as if i didnt do anything. with that being said do you guys have any tips for beginner sharpening? one of the problems ive been having is when knife sharpening my knife tends to get dragged by the wheel. i had two get snagged. and every other video ive watched they make it look effortless. sorry for the long message but any help is much appreciated!
I'll refer to this video, to help answer your questions...
https://youtu.be/R2ifZQOJA7k
For the knife catching, I have two thoughts. One is there's a chip or something in the stone that is catching the knife. Consider using the Stone Grader (fine) for a few seconds to make sure the stone is relatively smooth. Also, slightly round the edges, as explained around 16:25 in the video.
My second thought is too much pressure. You don't need a lot to sharpen. (This wiil be explained in the next section).
For beginners, I always suggest the basics. Mark the edge with a Sharpie, match the existing angle, create a burr, then remove the burr. So for this watch from 19:35-21:20. I suggest marking the whole edge, as explained in the video, so you can see where you're removing metal along the entire length, and insure you're sharpening all the way to the edge.
Then for sharpening, watch from 22:20-38:00. Note what he says about pressure, creating a burr, and then removing the burr. You can probably leave the stone graded fine, since you're matching the angle on the knife.
One mistake here, is not creating the burr, which may be why some knives come out sharp, and others feel like you "didn't do anything".
Stick with these basics until you can get a consistent edge on the knives you're practicing on. Not too much pressure... match the angle on the knife... create a burr, remove the burr. Once you have that down, you can move on to adjusting angles, reprofiling, etc.
That's my .02 :)
Quote from: Alihussein8 on June 29, 2020, 04:42:45 PM
i thought the stone might have not been true. so i ended up purchasing the truing tool. and i was surprised at how not round the wheel was lol. when i use the stone to change the grit to "220" and attempt to sharpen the knife, it feels as if the knife is trying to get pulled. i used some hot glue and glued some earth magnets on both sided of the water trough and it seems to do great.
Truing will help too... should have added that.
I rarely use 220g unless the knife is damaged, or needs to be reprofiled... for example sharpened at a lower angle. Then, I use it only to make the repair... switching to a finer grit to finish the edge. But, I still think the culprit here might be pressure... see if using less is more comfortable, and doesn't pull the knife.
I am pleased that truing your out of round grinding wheel has corrected your problem. Too many of us are reluctant to use the truing tool, fearing it would prematurely wear the grinding wheel. Frequent, very light truing removes very little of the wheel and insures that your wheel is in optimum condition. this practice will serve you well.
I agree with CB about the importance of understanding grinding pressure and varying the grit. Give yourself some quiet time to experiment with grits and pressures. It will be time well invested.
Keep us posted.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 29, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
I am pleased that truing your out of round grinding wheel has corrected your problem. Too many of us are reluctant to use the truing tool, fearing it would prematurely wear the grinding wheel. Frequent, very light truing removes very little of the wheel and insures that your wheel is in optimum condition. this practice will serve you well.
I agree with CB about the importance of understanding grinding pressure and varying the grit. Give yourself some quiet time to experiment with grits and pressures. It will be time well invested.
Keep us posted.
Ken
Ken, If a stone is allowed to go severly out of round or develop a large low spot do you think that overall more material will need to be removed to make it right than periodically truing the stone and removing just a little to make it round? The only thing that disappoints me is that you cannot recondition the stone back to the roughness it is at after truing.
If a knife is not damaged and I am keeping the same angle I do not even use the rough side of the conditioning stone. I like the middle ground it settles into and finer for virtually all my work.
John,
My feeling is that frequent, light truing should remove less wheel than occasional heavy truing. In the worst case, They might be equal.
You should be able to easily recondition your grinding wheel after truing it. The stone grader is not "digital", meaning only 220 or 1000 grit. Instead, the grit number can be varied. I know a Tormek rep who like to use "600 grit". In my opinion, "600 grit" just means a middle grit rather than an exact number. I think if you snuck up on your desired grit by varying the stone grader time and pressure, you would soon match you desired grit. ( Be sure to remember the time and pressure for next time. :)
I have noticed that the the coarse side of the stone grader doesn't seem to be as coarse as the TT-50.
Ken
Quote from: Alihussein8 on June 27, 2020, 02:59:32 AM
Hello all!
...one of the problems ive been having is when knife sharpening my knife tends to get dragged by the wheel...
I am also new to sharpening with the Tormek and occasionally have the same problem. I have 25 or 30 knives under my belt, and I think I have that worked.
Everytime I have the dragging problem, I am reminded of an old video on stropping. The crux of the video was that you must make a concerted effort to stop and lift the knife away from the leather before you change directions. If you don't, you will tend to drag the knife while turning it over for the next pass, effectively rounding the edge.
I had to apply the same mental technique, training myself and muscle memory to lift the blade edge up, out, and away from the stone before relaxing and allowing the knife edge to drop and grab the stone. Similarly, I have to concentrate on keeping the knife jig pressed up against the guide bar. I have found that in my attempt to finess the knife edge across the stone, I relax my hand that holds the jig and allow the stone to push the knife. When this happens, the angle quickly increases and may cause the edge to jam against the stone.
With my new T-4 just arrived I tried one kitchen knife and it went sort of disastrous so I understand OP's sentiment. Clamped the medium sized knife (steel sort unknown, but not expensive) in the new KJ-45 centering jig. I used to sharpen the knife, at unregular intervals, on a fine waterstone, freehand about 20 degree angle or so. So the Tormek manual says 40 degrees for a general cooking knife and I went with it, eager to try out setting a new edge. Used the angle master to position the jig. As instructed, I ground against the edge. I could feel the stone trying to pull the knife with it when applying moderate pressure. So I pushed quite strongly down on the jig and support bar, contrary to what is suggested in this topic by a number of folks.
Still, the stone did manage to make the knife bite into it and now I have a wonderful deep cut in my brandnew stone of about 1 mm. I blame the high advised angle, which made position the knife much too vertically on the stone. Now I feel a little discouraged to try another knife.
Quote from: miskermans on July 28, 2022, 05:37:44 PM
With my new T-4 just arrived I tried one kitchen knife and it went sort of disastrous so I understand OP's sentiment. Clamped the medium sized knife (steel sort unknown, but not expensive) in the new KJ-45 centering jig. I used to sharpen the knife, at unregular intervals, on a fine waterstone, freehand about 20 degree angle or so. So the Tormek manual says 40 degrees for a general cooking knife and I went with it, eager to try out setting a new edge. Used the angle master to position the jig. As instructed, I ground against the edge. I could feel the stone trying to pull the knife with it when applying moderate pressure. So I pushed quite strongly down on the jig and support bar, contrary to what is suggested in this topic by a number of folks.
Still, the stone did manage to make the knife bite into it and now I have a wonderful deep cut in my brandnew stone of about 1 mm. I blame the high advised angle, which made position the knife much too vertically on the stone. Now I feel a little discouraged to try another knife.
The Tormek manual is confusing, and it sounds like you used the wrong angle.
The 40 deg. suggestion is the "edge angle" which in Tormek speak is the entire angle. So, 40 deg. = 20 deg. per side...
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4364.0;attach=6669)
... as you can see the suggested angle is "edge angle"...
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4364.0;attach=6671)
I also suggest using an app instead of the Anglemaster on knives (link in my signature) since the Anglemaster doesn't account for blade taper from spine to edge.
With regard to knife catching, if you doubled the angle as @cbwx34 mentioned, that would definitely increase the chances of the knife catching.
For what it's worth, it happened to me twice since I got the Tormek, and both times i was distracted and kind of released the pressure keeping the jig against the usb.
If I keep the jig stop pressed on the USB, I feel like I could increase the pressure of the knife to the stone like crazy and it still wouldn't catch. Not that you *should* do that though.
In more physical terms, when the knife is fixed and the wheel turning, this is dynamic friction, associated with a relatively low friction coefficient. If you release the pressure on the jig and let the knife move with the wheel, the relative speed decreases, the relative angle increases, and eventually something (the USB, your hand, ...) will try to stop the knife by suddently increasing the force in the axis of the jig handle. Enter the realm of static friction: the friction coefficient increases dramatically, the knife will be pulled much more forcefully by the wheel, the relative speed will decay and next thing you know you just dent your wheel and your edge.