Hello Forum,
since this is the general questions area I figured I might use this to introduce myself and thank you all for the amazing amount of information and great community on this site. As a Tormek noob I have been reading here for the last week or so and already learned a lot. I never knew there was so much to know about sharpening :o
Thankfully I can take my time and hopefully soon make the best out of my new T8. I had an eye on this thing for the last 3 years, since I saw it on Steve Hays youtube channel. However, since we had a lot going on I couldn't make myself buy one. Until now, that is :D I have already ruined pretty much every kitchen knife in the house and at least got a decent enough edge on my chisels in the workshop. Still a long way to go until I get the perfect edge on anything other than a chisel I guess.
Anyway, just wanted to say hello and thank you for all the work that has gone into this forum.
braincramp
How did you ruin your kitchen knives? I started out practicing on old kitchen knives in the camping box. They all came out sharp but with time and practice I have "honed" my skills and they are now an par with razors.
Let us know what problems you are facing and the group here always is glad to help.
Thank you john,
Its probably bestif I upload a photo to show what I mean. The knives are sharp enough for most purposes. Its just that the edge isnt pretty. Just a lack of practice. Once I get the hang of the motion it should get better. Luckily for my favorite pocket knife it looked quite nice. I know my priorities. ;D
Let me post a photo once I am home and I'll be happy to get some advice.
Welcome to the forum,
Please find yourself some junker knives from a thrift store to practice on. It does take time to develop the sense of and muscle memory. No good reason to wear down your decent kitchen knives to get that learning. I nearly destroyed my Leatherman Wave when I first started. I have considered sending it in to have a new blade put, it was so bad. One commenter said "how did you even do that?". I don't actually know, so I could not answer.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on July 30, 2019, 08:05:28 PM
Welcome to the forum,
Please find yourself some junker knives from a thrift store to practice on. It does take time to develop the sense of and muscle memory. No good reason to wear down your decent kitchen knives to get that learning. I nearly destroyed my Leatherman Wave when I first started. I have considered sending it in to have a new blade put, it was so bad. One commenter said "how did you even do that?". I don't actually know, so I could not answer.
Rick
If you knew, you wouldn't have done it! I bought some very nasty soft metal cheap tools and ground the hell out of them when I started sharpening it's a good cost effective tip. The lessons learned pay off every time you go to the stone.
Yes that absolutely makes sense. I certainly should have done that, too. I was just to eager to get something sharpened. ;D Here is a few shots of the knives. Should be fixable with some Tormek quality time. And isn't that really what we want?
:o OMG "How did you even do that?" ;D
Rick
Haha, brilliant ;D
For the way they look they still are remarkably sharp. Here's a preliminary list of errors I probably made:
1. Impatience. I underestimated the time it takes to do a nice job
2. I seem to have pushed too hard, which makes sense considering 1
3. It seems the pressure applied was also uneven resulting in that nice wavey look :o
4. I read about the technique regarding the lifting of the handle when you get to the tip of the blade. But I did so only after I had done this already.
What do you think? Any additions?
Well, you answered the question I have : "so, now what are you going to do?". You are well on your way to success by admitting your mistakes (and even show them off), and asking for help. As they say, none of us is as smart as all of us.
So move past this, learn from it, and then you will get better.
braincramp,
I would submit the case for purchasing at least one kitchen knife of good quality and medium price range, such as a Victorinox eight inch chef's knife. You want it to be well made and of good steel to take and hold a good edge. You also want it to be your most used knife. If you are not already doing so, you will want to be doing most of the chopping in your kitchen. (You will also want a good wooden cutting board. I have used an 18x24" Boos Board for many years. It is a luxurious joy to use. Get the largest size which is practical for your kitchen.)
The eight inch chef's knife is your most used, everyday knife. You will become a better sharpener if you are also a user. This knife also has the benefit of not being precious. You can experiment with different methods and bevel angles. It can become like a much underlined well read textbook.
Ken
Your skill will quickly improve with a little practice. When sharpening I would rather make 2-3 gentle passes rather than 1 heavy handed one.
Also, care of the knife is important. Here are a few tips:
Use a wooden or plastic board
Never use the dishwasher and hand wash and dry individually after each use.
Store your knives in a block with the edge up or use a magnetic strip. Do not throw them in a drawer unprotected
If you must cut bone identify one cheap knife for that purpose. We have a lot of people that cut the knuckle off of chicken thighs to make lollipops for BBQ.
Do not use the knife's sharp edge to scrape food off the board. Most people always scrape in one direction which can't be good for maintaining the edge.
Last use a steel before each use
I would add something to John's last suggestion:
Learn how to use a steel before using one. This is more involved than one might think.
Used Judiciously, John's suggestions will become useful habits.
Ken
Is the recommendation to use a traditional "steel" steel, or ceramic?
I am under the impression that the steels are too aggressive, that the finer ceramics are better for maintaining an edge. Under microscopic examination, my sense of the steel steels is that they tear up an edge more than restore them. I don't care for what ceramics do to and edge either, but it is far more acceptable, to me at least.
Last summer, when I was doing farmers markets, there was a discussion of using a ceramic as part of the finishing process of sharpening. I tried it but did not like the results. May well be my unpracticed technique.
Rick
Dear Braincramp,
Don't be sorry or worry. Please take my word for it.
And please read the following :
Once upon a time, I was 20 y.o. (that was over 30 years ago ;) ) and I then pretended I could sharpen kitchen knives.
I bought a low-end sharpening machine and did "sharpen"...
The results were, to say the least, pretty poor.
And I went on, searching & learning.
A few years ago, I went back to the knife I had tried my sharpening "skills" on years from now.
And, believe me or not, I fully restored it, even better than it originally was.
This included a full blade polishing (sanding paper from 120 up to 2500 followed by polishing wheel with green compound and ended up with flannel wheel plus blue compound).
Mirror finish guaranteed.
Followed by hair popping sharpening.
To end the story : this is the knife (my knife) I will present to my son when he leaves home and settles in his on place.
So, don't be afraid. A knife is seldom totally ruined.
Rgds.
Quote from: braincramp on July 30, 2019, 07:42:43 PM
Thank you john,
Its probably bestif I upload a photo to show what I mean. The knives are sharp enough for most purposes. Its just that the edge isnt pretty. Just a lack of practice. Once I get the hang of the motion it should get better. Luckily for my favorite pocket knife it looked quite nice. I know my priorities. ;D
Let me post a photo once I am home and I'll be happy to get some advice.
Quote from: RickKrung on July 31, 2019, 07:34:58 PM
Is the recommendation to use a traditional "steel" steel, or ceramic?
I am under the impression that the steels are too aggressive, that the finer ceramics are better for maintaining an edge. Under microscopic examination, my sense of the steel steels is that they tear up an edge more than restore them. I don't care for what ceramics do to and edge either, but it is far more acceptable, to me at least.
Last summer, when I was doing farmers markets, there was a discussion of using a ceramic as part of the finishing process of sharpening. I tried it but did not like the results. May well be my unpracticed technique.
Rick
Rick,
There are different steels available and ceramic ones. The primary difference is that the ceramic ones remove material while the steel ones do not. The steel rods come in 3 basic configurations coarse and fine grooves and smooth. If I remember correctly Wootz's research indicates that the smooth steel used before each use of the knife is the best. I will go look at his book as that is where I think I saw it. I am convinced proper technique is key to using the steel. Maintaining the sharpening angle the most important. I have always wondered how some chefs maintain the angle when they steel a knife at breakneck speeds. Here is the one I use. I got it many years ago and I am able to set the sharpening angle then draw the knife across it while maintaining the knife vertically. The fine and coarse grooved ones will help bring a more degraded knife back to a usable state but I have found little need if I use the smooth one each time.
I do not think my steel is available but here is a picture of it.
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3955.0;attach=3233;image
Quote from: RichColvin on July 31, 2019, 04:59:25 AM
Well, you answered the question I have : "so, now what are you going to do?".
Simple, I will practice the sharpness and beauty out of many a blade until finally I succeed in getting it back to where it belongs ;)
Ken,
thanks for the suggestion. I will check out the Boos boards, but I can't promise that I can justify the purchase of one. They are very pricey. How about making a board myself? Getting a decent piece of maple should be feasible. And since the whole endeavour got started by the attempt to get my woodworking chisels sharper it seems fitting. For the knife there is no shortage in the kitchen. I shall select one and follow your advice.
Erivan,
while I am not satisfied with my results, I am far from feeling sorry :D To say it with Confucius' words. The path is the true destination. The two knives I showed you are safely put aside, until I feel confident enough to work them over.
john,
what makes a good steel? I do have one in my kitchen, but never really got into using them.
Quote from: braincramp on July 31, 2019, 09:30:09 PM
john,
what makes a good steel? I do have one in my kitchen, but never really got into using them.
I think all of the commercial steels are close to the same. The variations come in length and finish. I prefer a smooth steel that I use every day when I pick up a knife or more often if I am doing a lot of prep work. Steels also come in coarse or fine grooves. These are a little more aggressive and can be useful when you are not diligent in using the smooth one. I personally do not use ceramic or diamond ones as I feel they are too aggressive and remove material. When my knives do not respond to the steel it is time for sharpening. When a knife has been properly sharpened and maintained subsequent sharpening is an easy job. I use the SG-250 with a light touch at its finest and the leather hone. Here is a good video on using a steel. His is grooved and he does not use it every time. Mine is smooth and I do it every day. If you are not using the knife much you do not need to do it daily. Butchers will steel several times a day to maintain the edge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKYPCxx20zg
I recently added a ceramic honing rod to my kitchen. I purchased this one which has 2000 and 3000 grit options in the same rod. I chose it as it removes the least amount of steel from the edge. I am experimenting with this new rod used in conjunction with smooth and grooved steel ones in an attempt to extend times between sharpening my knives. They also offer a 1000/2000 grit rod which I may buy at some point. So far I am liking the new ceramic rod. I have used it on my most used knives with good results.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MXNV7LY/ref=sspa_dk_detail_7?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B07MXNV7LY&pd_rd_w=zGgO6&pf_rd_p=c83c55b0-5d97-454a-a592-a891098a9709&pd_rd_wg=bWVGJ&pf_rd_r=HVXVS8PWVDQQMVQ43A6D&pd_rd_r=897adb47-1587-4583-a125-d53975b4e748&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVU4wNVVDRVdKQTlTJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzA1NTU4MUFXUldTRkU3TTBQMSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTk5NjUzMVdGM0FVOVY5WEhUSSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2RldGFpbF90aGVtYXRpYyZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
My regret in this is that I did not design a proper experiment or take notes starting beginning with the initial sharpening and subsequent use of the knives. A BESS tester would also be nice but it is beneath other things on my wish list. I am trying to buy things when I have a real need and not just a desire to have it. One anecdotal bit of information; my knives with everyday steeling and now occasional ceramic honing have stayed sharper far longer than my daughter's blades. She knows how to care for hers but finds it easier to just bring them to me when they dull rather then following a good maintenance regimen.
Quote from: braincramp on July 31, 2019, 09:26:04 PM
Ken,
thanks for the suggestion. I will check out the Boos boards, but I can't promise that I can justify the purchase of one. They are very pricey. How about making a board myself? Getting a decent piece of maple should be feasible. ...snip...
Before I knew NOT to get bamboo cutting boards, I did. Two decent nice ones. I still use them. They are very hard, but I love bamboo, being a bamboo fly rod maker and user. I have, thus far, turned a blind eye to what they are doing to my knives.
I had not heard of the Boos boards until now and I see they are made from hardwood (maple, cherry and walnut) and use face grain surfaces rather than end grain. I didn't look at the prices as I know I'm not going to shell it out right now.
I am definitely interested in making a cutting board or two, now that I've gotten in to woodworking more seriously. Along that line, I wonder what the best type of wood is to use and whether I should make one (perhaps of any wood) with end grain. Are not most butcher blocks end grain? Does end grain harbor contaminants in a way that it is not a good choice?
It seems to me that making a board from hardwood face grain, the surface would be too hard and counter productive. If I decide to make a cutting board, I would like to do so such that it is the best for maintaining edges as well as serviceability. If I make one, I would not be concerned about it being "consumed" (if end grain) as I could easily resurface it and/or make another.
I stand by, hoping to be enlightened.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on January 26, 2020, 06:20:24 PM
Ken,
thanks for the suggestion. I will check out the Boos boards, but I can't promise that I can justify the purchase of one. They are very pricey. How about making a board myself? Getting a decent piece of maple should be feasible. ...snip...
Before I knew NOT to get bamboo cutting boards, I did. Two decent nice ones. I still use them. They are very hard, but I love bamboo, being a bamboo fly rod maker and user. I have, thus far, turned a blind eye to what they are doing to my knives.
Rick, here is an interesting article by forum member Wootz.
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Chopping_Boards.pdf
He found no real difference between end grain and face grain boards in edge longevity. The premise behind this seems reasonable on the surface but it does not hold up to testing.
Bamboo knots appear to be an issue as they are harder than the surrounding wood. I imagine the difference for a home user is not even noticeable.
While I have a couple of nice NSF rated wooden boards I tend to use a set of various sized polycarbonate boards more often. The primary reason for this is that I can clean them in the dishwasher. I also use commercial sanitizing wipes around the kitchen.
I had not heard of the Boos boards until now and I see they are made from hardwood (maple, cherry and walnut) and use face grain surfaces rather than end grain. I didn't look at the prices as I know I'm not going to shell it out right now.
I am definitely interested in making a cutting board or two, now that I've gotten in to woodworking more seriously. Along that line, I wonder what the best type of wood is to use and whether I should make one (perhaps of any wood) with end grain. Are not most butcher blocks end grain? Does end grain harbor contaminants in a way that it is not a good choice?
It seems to me that making a board from hardwood face grain, the surface would be too hard and counter productive. If I decide to make a cutting board, I would like to do so such that it is the best for maintaining edges as well as serviceability. If I make one, I would not be concerned about it being "consumed" (if end grain) as I could easily resurface it and/or make another.
I stand by, hoping to be enlightened.
Rick
Rick, Here is a good paper by forum member Wootz on cutting board materials:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Chopping_Boards.pdf
He found no discernible difference between end grain and face grain board as it related to edge longevity. Bamboo knots did have an impact but for a home user I doubt that the difference is noticeable.
I have a couple of NSF rated wood boards and a number of different sizes of polycarbonate boards. I tend to use these more often mainly because I can throw them in the dishwasher.