Our friend Al from New Zealand sharpens knives by means of exclusively Tormek, the stock SG wheel and leather wheel with the Tormek honing paste.
The knife on the photo has been sharpened at 10 dps on the SG wheel, and considering that the steel it is made of produces a burr "in-between" positive and negative, honed on the leather wheel at 11.5 dps, as per our deburring recommendations.
Near razor sharp (Gillette razors score 50 on this sharpness tester), and the apex is cleanly deburred of any wire edge.
I am so happy for Al, he beats my own records.
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/Al_NewZealand.jpeg)
Any Idea how hard/good that blade is???
Outstanding, Al!
Meticulous technique carries the day.
Thanks, Wootz, for sharing this.
Ken
This is a great result. I like to see how well the stock setup does.
I delivered some newly sharpened knives to a customer yesterday. The smile on her face was very rewarding as she tried cutting some vegetables and a tomato. Prior to sharpening she said she had to pierce the tomato skin to get started and she could never do a thin slice.
The Tormek is very well suited for many areas of sharpening and and adequate for many more. While the same machine may handle many types of sharpening, the sharpening requirements are not the same. I see this as a problem, especially for new sharpeners.
Sharpening a pocket or kitchen knife is different than sharpening a turning tool. so is sharpening a chisel. A roughing gouge probably removes more wood in rounding a single billet than a bench chisel removes in its owner's lifetime. A mortise chisel, struck with a mallet, gets much heavier dity than a handheld paring chisel.
Using a faster cutting diamond or CBN wheel is advantageous for heavy grinding, like removing nicks from planer blades or reshaping turning tools. A Tormek sharpener doing this kind of sharpening would be better served with diamond or CBN. What bothers me is the lack of good supporting information stating that the requirements for knife, chisel, and carving tools are different, and that diamond and CBN offer no real advantage for sharpening these tools.
When I read posts like the results of Al in New Zealand, posted by Wootz, with an extraordinary BESS score of 55 (only five points more than a new brand name double edge razor blade), I see no need for extra grinding wheels for a new sharpener, or for an experienced knife sharpener. The needed extra ingredients are focused experience and diligent study.
We have two key elements in this quest: We have the combined experience of the forum. We also have BESS Brubacher Edge Sharpness Scale) as a uniform, repeatable measurement of our sharpening progress.
We are truly in an age of evolving sharpening.
Ken
Quote from: Sam Sloane on March 26, 2019, 11:45:34 AM
Any Idea how hard/good that blade is???
The blade is a Chinese make multi-layer VG10.
The SG wheel graded with a diamond plate to #1000; leather wheel honing angle controlled with the FVB.
This way of honing ensures complete deburring and wire edge removal without rounding the edge - this knife will stay very sharp for long.
My own best result with this setup is 75 BESS, and I am delighted to see people following our methods do better.
Thanks for the kind comments but this would not be possible without all the help from Wootz
Not to mention the FVB computer software and the deburring book all supplied by Wootz at knife grinders Australia
This knife was inexpensive and VG10 steel
We encourage everyone who sharpens knives & cleavers on Tormek to make a similar Frontal Vertical Base yourself, and we will program software for your home-made FVB to control the honing/grinding angle - our software runs on all Windows and Mac Book & Air, and we also provide a version of the applet for Android smartphones and tablets and iPhone/iPad on request.
The base is the size of the Tormek Horizontal Base XB-100, thickness is 25 mm; legs are 200 mm, round bar 12mm and M12.
But make from what you have, and we will re-program our software to your make. E.g. Hanns from Germany made all by himself and his FVB base is 35mm, we only programmed for his FVB: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcT0P_Vz25vDdpz4Dn7KFFQ/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcT0P_Vz25vDdpz4Dn7KFFQ/videos)
Since I had posted my 1st FVB on this forum in 2016, many have followed, a few examples: http://knifegrinders.com.au/FVB_self-made.htm (http://knifegrinders.com.au/FVB_self-made.htm)
.
Welcome to the forum, Al. I have been intending to make the comment that Australia has become the primary center of the world of knife sharpening. I see now that I should correct "Australia" to "Australasia" (to include New Zealand).
Wootz, you have been very generous in sharing your work. I purchased my FVB from you at market price because I believe the inventor is entitled to the fruits of his inventions. I tried to pay for your applet and printed book. Your generosity is appreciated, although neither expected nor desired. I did purchase the kindle version of your book for my ipad. As much as I love printed books, I have come to think the kindle version is the most practical.
I look forward to reading of more fine work from Australasia!
Ken
Dear Kent, your comment may come as our vanity feed, but trying to remain objective, Australians do seem to know better how to sharpen.
UK 2019 Sharpest Knife Competition winner 139 BESS
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/UKwinner.jpg)
Other knives in the UK competition scored between 240 - 370 BESS.
Full results here:
Sharpest Knife Competition at IWA 2019 - The RESULTS - TACTICAL REVIEWS (http://tacticalreviews.co.uk/wp/?p=7507&)
PT50A BESS sharpness tester.
The UK 139 BESS versus Australian 40/25 BESS in the Sydney competition (https://www.australianbladeforums.com/vb4/knife-shows/38291-2018-sydney-knife-3.html?highlight=#post346579) is too much of a gap to explain by differences in individual testing manner.
If you look closely at the winner in the above photo, rough scratches from a coarse grit can be seen with the naked-eye.
I have no explanation other than Australians know better how to sharpen
:)
Wootz,
This topic proves the value of this forum. This extreme sharpness began in Holland. It picked up its system of measurement and a simple jig in the US. Then off to SAustralia and the Czech Republic for more math, followed by the US and Australia for more machining and finally to New Zealand.
It is unfortunate that Torgny Jansson is not still with us to see these spectacular results with his machine.
Ken
The FVB is next on my list of things to get.
Another tool that I use to inspect the edge as I sharpen is this pocket magnifier. I have had mine in my toolbox for almost 40 years. I find that knives that come to me have small defects that are difficult to see with the naked eye. More grinding is required to make the edge perfectly clean and remove them.
https://www.amazon.com/Bausch-Lomb-Folding-Pocket-Magnifier/dp/B00012KAAC/ref=sr_1_13?hvadid=241884699741&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9021483&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t2&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12060953469107441309&hvtargid=kwd-685613373&keywords=bausch+lomb+magnifier&qid=1553863762&s=gateway&sr=8-13
Great post, John. The Bausch & Lomb pocket magnifier is a genuine real deal classic tool. I have several, the oldest of which I inherited indirectly from a machinist born in 1863. A great tool!
Ken
Wow! It's time to stop lurking and make a post. I'm a newb with a stock T8. On a mission to restore the many neglected Henckels knives residing in the households of my large family. Dad started it all with the Henckels ;) It's going well but want to get to next level with these and my pocket knives.
Trying to decide while I already have a set of 8 inch paper wheels should I get the paper wheel support and applet from Knife Grinders, or should I just focus on getting a FVB in place for the Tormek honing wheel.
Welcome to the active forum, Ledpipes.
I suspect that your longterm choice will be "D, all of the above". (That's not a bad choice.) Which candidate to purchase first? I would lean toward the KnifeGrinders applet and the FVB. I have become spoiled working in the Tormek water cooled dust free environment.
I have purchased both the applet and the FVB. I think Wootz is doing fine pioneering research with burr removal for sharpness longevity. Presumably, with your "taking it to the next level" comment for your family Henckels, you are not under the same time constraints as a farmers market sharpener. In your case, the extra time involved in complete burr removal seems desirable. Your payback will be happier family members for longer time periods between sharpening.
I use the KnifeGrinders applet and VFB somewhat differently than is shown in Wootz' videos. I combine the speed and repeatability of the kenjig with the precision of the applet. This works especially well with the VFB. The diameter of the leather honing wheel remains constant. If the Projection of the knives in the jig(s) remains constant, the VFB setting will also remain constant. See Rich Colvin's Sharpening Handbook or google "kenjig" for an explanation of why I chose 139mm Projection. Henckel knives should all be the same steel and work at the same bevel angle. You should be able to use the applet once for the VFB and "set it and forget it".
Keep us posted.
Ken
I agree with Ken's recommendation for going with an applet and FVB and with his general statement of "All of the above". I don't use the Kenjig directly, but I use a standard projection distance of 139mm. I made my own FVB and use CB's GoCalc applet when setting the USB height with the FVB. I use the FVB on the front of my T8 nearly 100% of the time, except for drill bits. I need 3 or 4 more FVBs for my low speed grinder and buffers once I get paper wheels set up.
Last summer I did a fair bit of sharpening at a couple farmers markets. In that, I became proficient using the SB and SG stones and the leather honing wheel and could produce edges as sharp as I'd been able to using the SJ wheel and stropping. I have all three diamond wheels but found I didn't care for using them at the market sharpenings. For a long time, I took BESS measurements on all the knives I sharpened. After a while, I established that I got BESS readings below 200 nearly all the times, consistently closer to 150 and at best closer to 100. I do not take many BESS readings when doing what I now regard as routine knife sharpening anymore. For your family knife sharpening, you should not need to get any sharper than what the SG stone and leather honing wheel can provide.
Some like the Tormek DC wheel for coarse grinding. I find that even it is still too slow. I use an 80 grit Norton 3X 8" grinding wheel set up on my T8 for establishing or re-establishing bevels when knives are extremely dull. I hope to supplant it with a belt sander.
I want additional FVBs to set up with my low speed grinder and paper wheels, using the Tormek BGM-100 as the base mount. I've never used one of KnifeGrinder's paper wheel supports, so I cannot comment directly there. However, I think the versatility of an FVB and BGM setup is a greater because it can adjust in two planes, whereas I believe the paper wheel support is based on a fixed horizontal position and only adjusts vertically. I have BGMs set up on both sides of my low speed grinder and have two more in the boxes for when I get around to setting up the paper wheels. Currently, I have only my initial FVB and it is a pain to have to break down setups of it to move to the other side of the grinder or to/from the T8/grinder, which is why I need more FVBs.
My 2¢
Rick
Excellent post, Rick.
In general, I agree with your thoughts. With your use of the kenjig, I would separate the kenjig into the concept and the jig itself. You are using the concept, which ,in my opinion, is the greater part. By standardizing your Projection, you are on target. The actual jig itself is not that important. In fact, I use several variations of the jig.
I agree that the standard SG wheel and leather honing wheel are more than adequate for general sharpening. Like you, I feel that individual BESS readings are overkill for general sharpening, once you gave a good feel for what then are for your work and purpose. They are great for bragging rights, and sharp knife competitions. I think BESS readings are essential for high end sharpening
I think a practical use of diamond technology might be using the set of three DMT credit card diamond files ($25-$30) glued onto metal pieces and placed in the square edge jig. The 360, 600, and 1000 grit choices may help custom grade your wheel. I say "may" only because I have not had a chance to fully test these. Initial tests look promising. I believe they may be an improvement on the stone grader.
I like the Norton 3X wheels. They can be used wet with the Tormek and, as Rick has noted, trued with the TT-50. I found the 46 grit wheel removed in four minutes what was removed in five minutes with the 80 grit. Another in process experiment is using an 80 grit seeded gel wheel (from Packard Woodworking). According to Alan Lacer, these seeded gel wheels are a much better wheel than the 3X. They cost teice as much, $100 instead of $50. According to Lacer, they also cut faster than an 80 grit CBN wheel. (I have not verified this, although I have both wheels.)
We are in the middle exciting changes with knife sharpening. The game is afoot.
Ken
We measure sharpness on the BESS sharpness tester only for high-end knives for appreciating customers.
However, there is a handful of perfectionist customers that send their kitchen knives interstate for us to sharpen "by science", and for them we take BESS sharpeness score for each knife, no matter what brand.
Other than that, we use the BESS sharpness tester in developing sharpening protocols for steels new to us, and for improving our current protocols.
Regular knives final sharpness we test by cutting the Tally-Ho or Rizzla Green cigarette rolling paper longitudinally - a clean cut indicates 0.2 micron edge apex (Gillette razor has 0.1 micron apex) - it is quicker and lots cheaper than a BESS sharpness test.
Details are in our Sharpness Chart http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf (http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf)
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/cig_paper_swibo.JPG)
Wootz,
A very practical balance of quality sharpening and cost effective business practice. I'm sure that even your everyday sharpening is a cut above.
Ken
Excellent! Guded leather wheel honing it is then.
Yes, by 'next level' I only mean that I want to get things sharper. Doing this as a hobby that has therapeutic affects but also.... addictive
Thanks for your helpful advice!
I just ordered the FVB and program; I am looking forward to using it on a couple of cleavers and the leather wheel.
The inclusion of the book was a pleasant surprise. Thank you Wootz.
I too recently ordered the FVB and was surprised to find a hard copy of the book included. I had just purchased a copy also on Amazon for the Kindle version and got the hard copy as a surprise.
Thank You and am working to improve my sharpening skills. I purchased the BESS scale also to help closer monitor how I am performing in improvement.
Just finished my Kindle edition of the book. A very informative and enjoyable read... Thanks Wootz
First post. Hello everyone :)
I'd like to say what a brilliant forum this is , I've been lurking for a few weeks now , reading and learning and I must say you really do come across as a very knowledgable and decent bunch . I love the sharpening handbook and have referenced it several times and am currently experimenting with a platform jig
I'm new to sharpening , had my Tormek for a month or so , picked up some pretty decent machines second hand (of the non Tormek variety ) and am slowly getting my head around things .
I have done a short training course but for me there is nothing like hands on practice at my own pace . The guy that trained me didn't use the leather honing wheel but cloth mops on a 6 inch grinder so I've experimented with that and had what I believed were decent results for a novice . Kitchen knives that wouldn't slice newspaper made to do so quite easily . I was wondering Vadim is there any idea of whereabouts on the sharpness scale a knife that can slice newspaper would be ?
Anyway I've gone ahead and ordered the FVB and the Pivot jig from Vadim and look forward to improving my skills when they make there way over from down under :)
Welcome to the forum, Luke.
You mention that the guy who trained you did not use the leather honing wheel. I do not wish to criticize him or his choice not to use the leather honing wheel. However, I believe it is important to master something before writing it off. If a top sharpener like Wootz would tell me that he prefers another method, I would pay serious attention. I know that he has developed his sharpening skills to fully understand the potential and limitations of the leather honing wheel or any other component.
I am not an only Tormek sharpener, either for equipment or technique. In my search for a Tormek compatable coarse wheel, I was the first on the forum to work with the Norton 3X 46 and 80 grit wheels. I was an early CBN user with the Tormek, especially with wet use. For many years I have developed and used the kenjig (based on Dutchman's tables) instead of using the Anglemaster or black marker. I have always deviated from Tormek exclusively because I felt better results were possible by including non Tormek products or methods. I based these thoughts on first understanding the Tormek way.
I look forward to seeing many more advances from the forum. I believe the Tormek will continue to be the heart of these advances, although the Tormek of the future will not be identical to Torgny Jansson's original machine.
Keep posting, Luke!
Ken
Cheers Ken,
Wootz ,undoubtedly is someone to listen to , a few email exchanges with him have proven to be enlightening . Taking time to explain a few simple things so myself as a novice can understand - I'm sold :)
Quote from: Luke on April 15, 2019, 08:44:11 PM
...
I was wondering Vadim is there any idea of whereabouts on the sharpness scale a knife that can slice newspaper would be ?
...
Hi Luke, newsprint papers differ widely, but for the common cheaper one clean slicing indicates a working edge, sharp but not "very sharp", details are in our Sharpness Chart http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf (http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf)
Speaking of knife sharpening, there are 2 major milestones in mastering Tormek: first you learn how to put a shaving edge on your knives, and then how to put a
lasting shaving edge by removing the wire edge from the apex. Where time per knife is not a restriction, everything can be done by means of Tormek.
Speaking of knife sharpening, there are 2 major milestones in mastering Tormek: first you learn how to put a shaving edge on your knives, and then how to put a lasting shaving edge by removing the wire edge from the apex. Where time per knife is not a restriction, everything can be done by means of Tormek.
[/quote]
There is much wisdom in this quote from Wootz. The second part reminds me of a question I asked Steve Bottorff several years ago. Steve had retired from teaching at the time, but had very graciously invited me to spend a day with him at his home. He shared the essence of his sharpening class with me. It was both a very pleasant day and a rare learning opportunity. Steve´s method of using the Tormek to set the bevel and finishing with either paper wheels or an F Dick sharpening machine is well known. Sharpening a hundred knives on a Saturday morning requires speed. I asked Steve if it would be possible to do the entire procedure with the Tormek if speed was not so paramount. He told me that the Tormek was quite capable of doing the entire procedure if speed was not a priority. For me, as a low volume sharpener, not having the expense for the extra equipment easily outweighed the time saving.
When two outstanding sharpeners on opposite parts of the planet reach the same conclusion, I am convinced.
Ken
Quote from: wootz on March 26, 2019, 09:37:06 PM
Quote from: Sam Sloane on March 26, 2019, 11:45:34 AM
Any Idea how hard/good that blade is???
The blade is a Chinese make multi-layer VG10.
The SG wheel graded with a diamond plate to #1000; leather wheel honing angle controlled with the FVB.
This way of honing ensures complete deburring and wire edge removal without rounding the edge - this knife will stay very sharp for long.
My own best result with this setup is 75 BESS, and I am delighted to see people following our methods do better.
:oI'll be a stubborn guy, but I have to understand !!!
How do you recognize that this blade is VG10 if it is not written on the blade?
Perhaps only the great experience can lead to this determination
You have to do some research. Many knife making companies advertise the steel they use for their blades. For this one you can look on their site and for many of their knives it is in the specifications. No one can tell the chemical composition of a steel by looking at it. If you have a good memory or a notebook you can keep track of the knives you sharpen. Here are a couple of lists of the steels used for blades. The knife manufacturers are normally good about advertising what steel they use. For some of the really cheap knives it is sometimes a little harder to find the information; if a knife is cheap it is safe to assume it is not made with anything exotic.
https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/steel-types-for-kitchen-knives.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blade_materials
Graces for information.
Then knowing the knife manufacturer is important to know the type of steel used. This is ok for a new knife or kept in good condition. But for knives that have been used for many years and worn it becomes difficult to evaluate
Quote from: van on April 20, 2019, 04:49:46 PM
Graces for information.
Then knowing the knife manufacturer is important to know the type of steel used. This is ok for a new knife or kept in good condition. But for knives that have been used for many years and worn it becomes difficult to evaluate
When I cannot identify the knife steel I "type the burr" as explained in the latest edition of the Knife Deburring book and the video https://youtu.be/7BGOT3oJ51Y (https://youtu.be/7BGOT3oJ51Y)
This way I determine the best deburring/de-wiring angle.
Van, simply deburr the unknown blade at the edge angle, and check for wire edge. If no wire edge, the blade is finished with Chromox and can go to the customer. If you see signs of the wire edge, give the blade more honing at a higher angle, for unknown knife steel try at 2 degrees higher than the edge angle.
We call our deburring method "differential honing" because it is minimum 2-step: removing the bulk of the burr, followed by de-rooting the burr that removes the wire edge. In reality, we do more honing steps for every knife, even budget, and get a cleanly deburred lasting very sharp edge. The apex we get - we call it "de-wired" - withstands cutting load better, has better edge retention, as shown by trials in boning at a Sydney meat plant - Our 7-Carcasses Edge (http://knifegrinders.com.au/17ProprietaryEdge.htm)
As always very exhaustive. Thank you
Your book is very interesting and informative, I have some difficulty in understanding some terms in English. I'm trying to translate it all into Italian for easy reading, understanding and consultation.
Until now I have always finished knives on the leather wheel with Tormek paste.
I decided to take two other leather wheels for use with diamond / chromox paste. What advice for the choice? 8)
Quote from: van on April 20, 2019, 10:52:38 PM
As always very exhaustive. Thank you
Your book is very interesting and informative, I have some difficulty in understanding some terms in English. I'm trying to translate it all into Italian for easy reading, understanding and consultation.
Until now I have always finished knives on the leather wheel with Tormek paste.
I decided to take two other leather wheels for use with diamond / chromox paste. What advice for the choice? 8)
If you can afford two extra Tormek leather wheels:
- for removing the wire edge rub 1-micron diamond paste on one wheel;
- for finishing cleanup, cover the 2nd wheel with Chromox and rub in 0.25-micron diamond paste.
However, you can do with only one extra Tormek leather wheel with 1-micron diamond paste for removing the wire edge;
while the finishing clean up can be done on a strop with Chromox and 0.25 micron diamonds: "positive burr" blades are stropped on a hanging strop, and "negative burr" on a firm strop.
Thanks Wootz,
maybe it's a question of Google translator, but diamond paste and Chromox are the same thing?
I meant pure Chromium Oxide. Can be used as is or mixed with 0.25 micron diamonds.
We use Chromox (green) by Thiers-Issard https://www.thiers-issard.fr/en/razors-accessories/79-506-chromox.html (https://www.thiers-issard.fr/en/razors-accessories/79-506-chromox.html)
As to the diamonds, I buy oil-based diamond paste from a Hong Kong factory https://www.thk.hk (https://www.thk.hk)
They also sell through eBay - search for THK diamond paste.
There must be producers in Italy/Europe, just Hong Kong is closer to us.
As can be seen on SEM images done by Todd Simpson, the chromium oxide grains, and a commercial diamond spray labelled as 0.25-micron, are close in size, both ranging from 0.15 to 0.5 microns. Because of this range, because the manufacturers label the diamonds by average size, when we say that finishing cleanup is to be done with <= 0.5 micron diamonds, practically we buy diamond spray or paste labelled "0.25 micron".
Chromium Oxide
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/SEM_ChromiumOxide_s.jpg)
0.25-micron diamonds
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/SEM_025micron_mono_diamond_spray_s.jpg)
It took us a lot of sharpness tests in trial and error to conclude that the 1-micron abrasive de-roots the burr best of all - we recommend 1-micron diamonds for preventing/removing the wire edge.
Having removed the burr root, we do finishing "cleanup" honing with <= 0.5 micron diamonds, as above.
Van, I see you like it certain, and this is how to deburr mainstream stainless steel knives:
So, you have ground bevels and apexed the edge, as you mentioned before at 15 degrees per side (dps); you can feel the burr by brushing the edge with your thumb.
Control the grinding angle with our Grinding Angle Setter software.
1) Deburr on the Tormek leather wheel with the Tormek honing compound at the exact edge angle (e.g. at 15 dps) - till you cannot see and feel the burr; control the honing angle with our software for Frontal Vertical Base.
2) Remove the burr root (wire edge) on the 2nd leather wheel with 1-micron diamonds at 2 degrees per side higher (e.g. at 17 dps) - give it 3 slow passes alternating sides; again, use our software for Frontal Vertical Base to control the angle. No pressure on the blade at this step, just the weight of the knife and the knife jig - the diamonds will cut off the wire edge at its root.
3) Clean up with 0.25 micron diamonds, or with Chromium Oxide (Chromox), or a mix of them. You can do it on a 3rd Tormek leather wheel, or on a hanging strop, leather (smooth side) or denim. Finishing is important to clean up the deburred areas on the edge from any weak metal left after the burr breakout to get an "ideal" apex.
If you'll be using the wheel, do just 1 pass each side at the exact edge angle (15 dps); if you'll be using a strop, do 4 gentle passes alternating sides.
Between the honing steps clean the blade with turpentine to prevent cross-contamination of the honing compound.
As a result, the knife will stay very sharp for long time. You only have to advise your customer to use an edge-friendly chopping board (no bamboo, no hard plastic etc).
Vadim, I have a couple of follow up questions. At the end of your last post you say to not use hard plastic or bamboo for a cutting board. Is the hard plastic you are referring to PE (polyethylene) or HDPE (high-density polyethylene plastic)? Boards made of these materials can be found in most restaurants and many home kitchens. They are preferred as you can use stronger disinfectants and they are dishwasher safe. I did not realize bamboo was not edge friendly.
If the PE or HDPE plastic is not edge friendly how would you finish a knife that would be used for cutting vegetables and meat in a commercial kitchen?
Second question; In your original post am I correct that the blade was done at 10 dps and then honed at 10 dps followed by honing at 11.5 dps all using Tormek standard products? This is essentially steps one and two in your post yesterday. Step 3 is a refinement on how Al sharpened the knife.
I appreciate the time you put into answering these questions and my customers appreciate it as well. I think most of them think their knives were sharp out of the box and when they cut their first tomato after I sharpen them they are amazed.
Thank you
Yes that's correct 1st honing was at 10 dps. 1 pass each side then repeat 1 more pass each side. The Bess at this stage from memory was around 180.then did 1 more pass each side at 11.5 dps and the Bess was 65. This result was all due to the patience of Wootz answering all my questions
Quote from: Al on April 21, 2019, 11:37:13 PM
Yes that's correct 1st honing was at 10 dps. 1 pass each side then repeat 1 more pass each side. The Bess at this stage from memory was around 180.then did 1 more pass each side at 11.5 dps and the Bess was 65. This result was all due to the patience of Wootz answering all my questions
Al's example is an illustration of the wire edge removal, and getting a clean robust apex, using the Tormek honing paste.
By using 1-micron diamonds for wire edge removal, we get even better sharpness, <= 50 BESS, and strong apex.
Quote from: john.jcb on April 21, 2019, 05:49:50 PM
Vadim, I have a couple of follow up questions. At the end of your last post you say to not use hard plastic or bamboo for a cutting board. Is the hard plastic you are referring to PE (polyethylene) or HDPE (high-density polyethylene plastic)? Boards made of these materials can be found in most restaurants and many home kitchens. They are preferred as you can use stronger disinfectants and they are dishwasher safe. I did not realize bamboo was not edge friendly.
If the PE or HDPE plastic is not edge friendly how would you finish a knife that would be used for cutting vegetables and meat in a commercial kitchen?
...
The only truly edge-friendly plastic board is
polyvinyl acetate Yoshihiro Hi-Soft cutting board.
May I refer you to this older thread? - https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3452 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3452)
When I start with a new commercial kitchen customer, I give his chopping board 20 slices, checking BEFORE and AFTER knife sharpness on the tester. True that several times I met plastic boards out there that do not roll the edge and are not those expensive Yoshihiro, but unfortunately those boards were unbranded.
In the meat plants operators cut on the conveyor belt, and this belt is the main cause of the edge rolling; similarly the plastic chopping boards in commercial kitchens.
When we see that, we have to sharpen the edge at 14-15 degrees to better withstand the chopping board they use.
This is one of my go-to threads for a discussion on how to use Tormek products (mostly) to obtain a razor sharp edge. Since the last post Wootz has done some excellent research and testing using various cutting boards. The results are surprising. To complete this thread I am adding a link to his work on this subject.
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Chopping_Boards.pdf
Discussion of this subject is also contained in this thread:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3955.0
Hello. First Time poster.
IF i have used the black marker method to get the same angle for The knife on the sharpening Stone, how can i change the lenght of the legs of the USB so that i can Quickly change from Stone to leather wheel?
Best regards
Nik3
Hello Nik and welcome to the forum! :)
You are asking a good question! As far as I know there is not an easy and quick method to accomplish your task. Probably the easiest way is to use the marker method again, this time for the leather honing wheel.
When you know your bevel angle and also wheel diameter and edge protrusion you can calculate the distance between the wheel surface and the USB.
Sometimes I use the so called double-ended kenjig. Principle of this method is described in reply#8 of the following thread https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3320.msg19878#msg19878
Jan
Quote from: Nik3 on June 10, 2019, 02:19:42 PM
Hello. First Time poster.
IF i have used the black marker method to get the same angle for The knife on the sharpening Stone, how can i change the lenght of the legs of the USB so that i can Quickly change from Stone to leather wheel?
Best regards
Nik3
Hello Nik3,
you can use TormekCalc https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3919.0 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3919.0) for reverse calculation of bevel angle through "marker method" (see "Bevel angle" sheet).
Then use this angle for USB heigth calculation for other stones/wheels (see "USB height" sheet).
Quote from: Nik3 on June 10, 2019, 02:19:42 PM
Hello. First Time poster.
IF i have used the black marker method to get the same angle for The knife on the sharpening Stone, how can i change the lenght of the legs of the USB so that i can Quickly change from Stone to leather wheel?
Nik, there exists an angle setting tool for knives which may solve your task, but it is not easy/commercially available, so I did not mention it in my previous post. It is limited to selected bevel angles and assumes protrusion length 139 mm. It works for all wheel diameters.
I have designed it several years ago as a modification of Tormek TTS-100 (Turning Tool Setter). It was discussed in a very old thread, which was partially resurrected by Rick last year. https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.120
Jan
Nik,
To elaborate slightly on Jan's posts: More sophisticated versions of the kenjig were designed to compensate for the decreasing diameter of the grinding wheel through wear.
The leather honing wheel does not change diameter. Therefore no wear compensation is needed. Jan's double ended kenjig or a separare kenjig made for the leather honing wheel will provide consistent angles over time. This assumes a consistent bevel angle. If you want to vary the bevel angles, you really need the Knife Grinders applet.For my home sharpening, I have standardized at 15° for each bevel. This would also be a good standard angle for farmers market sharpeners.
Like the leather honing wheel, diamond and CBN wheels do not change diameter and work well with the kenjig. Diameter reduction occurs very gradually over the life of the grinding wheel. Frankly, for most sharpeners, I feel diameter changes with one wheel is a minor concern.
Be sure to check Rich Colvin's online Sharpening Handbook. Over coffee I recently made the comment to Rich that although I wrote the kenjig instructions, the quickest way for me to find them was on his sharpening handbook. Rich's handbook has lots of good information, including Dutchman's grinding tables. Find Rich's member listing. His signature includes a link to his sharpening handbook.
Ken
Here is a link to the handbook:
http://www.sharpeninghandbook.info/
Quote from: Jan on June 12, 2019, 09:59:58 AM
Quote from: Nik3 on June 10, 2019, 02:19:42 PM
Hello. First Time poster.
IF i have used the black marker method to get the same angle for The knife on the sharpening Stone, how can i change the lenght of the legs of the USB so that i can Quickly change from Stone to leather wheel?
Nik, there exists an angle setting tool for knives which may solve your task, but it is not easy/commercially available, so I did not mention it in my previous post. It is limited to selected bevel angles and assumes protrusion length 139 mm. It works for all wheel diameters.
I have designed it several years ago as a modification of Tormek TTS-100 (Turning Tool Setter). It was discussed in a very old thread, which was partially resurrected by Rick last year. https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.120
Jan
Jan's jig is quite formidable to make. Enough so that I made four "single angle" jigs based on Jan's work. I did these four single angle jigs as a stop-gap measure because I was starting sharpening at a farmers market very soon.
Info on my first two jigs starts here (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.msg24599#msg24599) at 16º and 18º. I added two more here (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.msg24628#msg24628) 12º and 14º. I used these four jigs and found them to be just about everything I needed for fast and accurate setting of angles on grinding wheels of varying diamter (SB, SG, SJ, three diamond wheels and the leather honing wheel).
If you are going to work with just a single angle, it should be relatively easy to make one like I did. If plans (a drawing) of dimensions has not already been posted (no time right not to look), I can post them for the ones I made.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on June 12, 2019, 05:14:11 PM
Jan's jig is quite formidable to make. Enough so that I made four "single angle" jigs based on Jan's work. I did these four single angle jigs as a stop-gap measure because I was starting sharpening at a farmers market very soon.
Info on my first two jigs starts here (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.msg24599#msg24599) at 16º and 18º. I added two more here (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.msg24628#msg24628) 12º and 14º. I used these four jigs and found them to be just about everything I needed for fast and accurate setting of angles on grinding wheels of varying diamter (SB, SG, SJ, three diamond wheels and the leather honing wheel).
If you are going to work with just a single angle, it should be relatively easy to make one like I did. If plans (a drawing) of dimensions has not already been posted (no time right not to look), I can post them for the ones I made.
Rick
Rick, it was a great pleasure for me to read your post about how you use the jig. Thanks for sharing your experience. :)
The back engineering of the TTS-100 was quite challenging task, but it revealed its design and enabled me to modify it for knives. In a nutshell: the key component of the jig design is the pair of contact discs which define the tangent to the wheel at the contact of the wheel with the edge. The direction of this line does not depend on wheel diameter...
Jan
Well done, Jan. (I would expect nothing less from you!)
Ken
Quote from: RickKrung on June 12, 2019, 05:14:11 PM
...snip...
If you are going to work with just a single angle, it should be relatively easy to make one like I did. If plans (a drawing) of dimensions has not already been posted (no time right not to look), I can post them for the ones I made.
Rick
There has been a request for drawings of the single angle HanJigs. So, I am posting PDF files of the four drawings I made for making my jigs. I'm happy to answer questions and help in other ways as may be desired.
There are four drawings, one for each angle. However, the major dimensions are the same for 12º and 14º jigs and only the USB hole placement differs between the two. Same for 16º and 18º jigs. These are in "inches". If you cannot do conversion to metric, I can generate them with metric dimensions.
Rick
Quote from: Ken S on June 13, 2019, 09:45:50 PM
Well done, Jan. (I would expect nothing less from you!)
Ken
Thank you Ken, it is my real pleasure to see that the jig works fine. :)
It is my reward for stumbling in the darkness during the deconstruction of the model jig TTS-100. ;)
Jan
Quote from: Jan on June 15, 2019, 10:34:24 AM
Thank you Ken, it is my real pleasure to see that the jig works fine. :)
It is my reward for stumbling in the darkness during the deconstruction of the model jig TTS-100. ;)
Jan
Methinks you are too gracious. I love reverse engineering stuff. I do it very frequently, when designing an adaptation to a jig or other tool/contraption, to get the "base" into CAD and then build the "whatever". On the surface, from a physical perspective, the TTS-100 is simple enough. I think the brilliance was in "thinking" of adapting it for knife sharpening. And then there was figuring out the geometry/math.
Again, well done.
Rick
Thank you Rick! :)
Jan
I was on this thread as part of my binge-reading this excellent forum to otpimize my learning curve with the T8.
Quote from: wootz on April 21, 2019, 02:29:10 AM
As can be seen on SEM images done by Todd Simpson, the chromium oxide grains, and a commercial diamond spray labelled as 0.25-micron, are close in size, both ranging from 0.15 to 0.5 microns.
The site https://www.thiers-issard.fr/fr/accessoires-de-rasoirs/79-13467-chromox.html (https://www.thiers-issard.fr/fr/accessoires-de-rasoirs/79-13467-chromox.html) mentions 3.6 and 2.5 micron granulometry, not .25 or .5 ... Is there some kind of breakdown of the chromox crystals that crushes them to a smaller average size ?
Hi Nick,
you're right, there are different specifications around.
The (German) datasheet of the Kremer pigments I use says "predominant grain size" is 0.3.
No mentioning of "maximum grain size" or the like. https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/elements/resources/products/files/44200.pdf (https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/elements/resources/products/files/44200.pdf)
As most sources agree that green compounds with Cr2O3 are very fine and also are suitable for polishing tasks I tend to believe that.
Mike