Tormek has an impressive new knife repair video:
https://youtu.be/bv1ApResgCQ
Enjoy!
Ken
Very nice.
The new knife repair video is most welcome (and long needed!). In my opinion, most Tormek videos focus on everything being done quickly and easily in an ideal Tormek marketing world. In the real world, Tormek users must deal with difficulties such as broken tips, deep nicks, and stains.
As a Tormeker, I am pleased that Tormek is sharing its experience with coping with the world we face. It speaks well of Tormek.
As informative as I found the video, it also left me wanting more. I should state that I realize that many of us on the forum, including me, are not typical Tormek users. In that spirit, I offer a suggestion to Tormek. I can understand how providing much more information in the knife repair video might appear to be confusing to Tormek's concept of the typical user. In fact, I agree with that. What I would like to see is a forum post from Tormek with more background details, and, ideally, an eventual second supporting video. I would like to see the following related topics addressed:
How was the grinding wheel prepared. I would presume the wheel should be dressed and trued with the TT-50 before starting.
Should the side of the wheel be refreshed with the coarse side of the stone grader? (or not)
I presume the stainng on the knife was removed with PA-70 honing compound on the leather honing wheel. This was glossed over lightly in the video.
Again, I give the video high marks. I just hope that Tormek will reply to the forum with more information.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 05, 2019, 03:12:25 PM
Tormek has an impressive new knife repair video:
https://youtu.be/bv1ApResgCQ
Enjoy!
Ken
The first thing that popped in my head was, "how long"? So, I asked in the comments... how long did this take? Their reply...
QuoteThe whole process took about 25 minutes, including polishing the blade and sharpening on the Japanese Waterstone. You can do it faster if you have the SB-250 och DC-250. This particular knife didn't have so hard steel either.
... I find that hard to believe. First, pause here, and go feel the side of the SG stone. Mine is very smooth... not to mention the difference in how the side will cut vs. the face. I'm not sure it can be graded with the Stone Grader like the face... I've never tried, but it doesn't look like it was in the video, and if it was, well, that's an important step to leave out.
So, I took a screen capture of his watch at the beginning and end
(yeah I went there)... attached below... (the only thing I did was rotate them 180° so they would face up). The way I read it, that video started at 11:45 and ended at 3:15. Yes, I know, that they're making a video, and I'm sure other things were going on. But, "about 25 minutes"? I would put heavy emphasis on "about". :o
I've done a lot of repairs, and I use the wheel's face... if I switched to another type stone, I'd try both ways. ::)
I think the technique is decent (especially the edge repair)... but I don't think it's efficient. (My conclusion). :) To me, a training video should show the entire process (like Jeff Farris did)... this is more "infomercial" than "educational". (If you have to edit for time, that's fine, but still document the actual time).
---------------------------------
Part II
I started to post the above this morning, but thought I'd do a little testing.
First, attempting to grade the side of the stone "coarse", did nothing, other than clean it up a bit.
Second, I checked the amount of metal removed. I was looking for a quick test, so I took a utility blade... planning to grind the tips on either side of the blade in 5 second intervals. It was obvious after the first round, the face of the stone (graded "natural" at this point), easily removed more metal than the side.
Like I said, not convinced that Tormek's video is the route I'd take. Maybe with some of the other wheels mentioned, otherwise I'd use the face of the wheel... maybe the side for a little "cleanup".
p.s. Is it good to start wearing the side of the stone? Another question I'd be curious about... repairs often cause more wear than sharpening... on knives anyway.
p.p.s. I've concluded that if you have questions, ask in the video comments or Instagram post... you're more likely to get a response from Tormek there. ;)
CB,
Alas, I must agree with you; the time involved should have been included in the video. I have no illusions about the SG being fast with reshaping. It is really designed for sharpening rather than reshaping. I would not have thought of reshaping using the side of the wheel. I reshape using the edge of the wheel, which is easily trued and kept coarse with the TT-50. I grind at a ninety degree angle, using either the Torlock platform or the top of the support bar pushed very close to the grinding wheel. (Do this carefully.) Be sure to use the vertical, grinding into position.
Either the diamond or CBN wheels reshape more quickly, but at a price. The low cost, fast cutting option (around $75 US) is an eight inch diameter 46 grit Norton 3X wheel. You need to add a stainless steel 5/8" to 12mm reducing bushing from woodturningwonders.com and some 12mm bore washers, either fender washers from a hardware store or Tormek stone washers from Advanced Machinery. This option will get the job done quite adequately for the rare job requiring this much grinding.
Is reshaping with the SG "efficient"? Certainly not in terms of time. However, if one chose to go with the $300 DC diamond wheel instead of the $75 3X, I could spend a fair amount of time with a one off job to save $300. I would use the TT-50 frequently to keep the SG coarse.
I rarely use the side of the SG. Use David Charlesworth's Ruler Trick for bench plane blades. Buy Lie- Nielsen or Veritas chisels which leave the factory ground flat. Better to have a few top of the line chisels than a plethora of chisels requiring a lot of flattening work.
pps. I think questions from the forum deserve replies just as promptly at the facebook and instagram crowd.
Ken
Reshaping and repair is easily done on a belt sander. I use 80 grit zirconia on a 1x42
as it doesn't generate much heat, then finish up on the tormek. 10-15 minutes of work. For someone who has the time
and no other equipment that would work well. I do appreciate seeing any and all methods of how other people do things.
I always learn something.
Thanks for postiong
Tim
Tim,
I confess my 1x42 belt sander is never far from reach. It makes quick work of many jobs. It also makes a very useful complement to my Tormek.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 06, 2019, 03:13:40 AM
Tim,
I confess my 1x42 belt sander is never far from reach. It makes quick work of many jobs. It also makes a very useful complement to my Tormek.
Ken
I agree.
Hi everyone, My namn is Sebastien and i work as a Country sales manager at Tormek. I'm really glad to see all the entusiasm around our new video and questions arising. I will try to answer some of them for you in the best manner I can.
1. To remove material from a knife from a Tormek machine the best is to start with truing the stone with the TT-50 because then you get it as aggressive as the SG-250 can be.
2. You can use the stone grader on the outside of the stone which was done in the video. With the Coarse side to speed things up in this case.
3. Regarding using an other machine like a "dry grinder" to remove material is possible and off course faster then with the method showed in the film. But in this case we wanted to show that the whole process could be made on the Tormek in a satisfying way.
4. When you want to remove material on a knife with the SG-stone you can do it both on the stone and on the side of the stone. It's up to the user what he prefers. I personally prefer the side of the stone just like Wolfgang did in the video. What's new with the new TT-50 together with the MB-100 is that you can actually true the side of the stone. Not to many times but it is possible to do with a good result. This is a News that we will come with more information up ahead.
5. Regarding the time it took the whole process 25 minutes is accurate. The steel was quite soft on this particular knife. Then the process of filming takes longer with retakes, diffrent angels and so on. Wolfgang also needed lunch so we took a break during the filming :D ;)
Hope I answered most of your questions and I'm looking forward getting to know you all better.
Now I'm off to Holland for four sharpening courses.
Best regards
Sebastien Ehnevid
Quote from: Sebastien on March 07, 2019, 10:37:40 AM
...
2. You can use the stone grader on the outside of the stone which was done in the video. With the Coarse side to speed things up in this case.
...
5. Regarding the time it took the whole process 25 minutes is accurate. The steel was quite soft on this particular knife. Then the process of filming takes longer with retakes, diffrent angels and so on. Wolfgang also needed lunch so we took a break during the filming :D ;)
....
Hope to see more on grading the side of the stone... 'cause I tried it and saw little difference.
I'm still skeptical of the time... I think it was an "after the fact" estimate. ;)
Thanks for the response.
Welcome to the forum, Sebastian. Members of Team Tormek are always welcome here. You will find the forum members enthusiastic, innovative, and sharing. I hope you will post often.
Looking at our posts and forum stats, you will discover that we represent a wide spectrum of the Tormek community. Our members include many of what the English woodworkers might call, "the veriest tyros" (new beginners seeking help purchasing and learning to use their Tormeks). We have many professional sharpeners in our ranks. We also have some members who have risen the bar for efficiency and sharpness with the Tormek. Our ideas come from Tormek users around the globe.
While you are in Holland, you should meet our member "Dutchman". Ton's seminal work with his grinding tables booklet in 2013 has revolutionized the way we set bevel angles on knives. There are now several variations of this new technique, however, they are all rooted in Ton's work.
I have found the handbook an invaluable resource. I have a collection of different editions and also have it in ibooks on my ipad. I have read it several times and refer to it often. I have also found that it has changed very little over the years. It does not include new techniques developed in recent years. Things like new grinding wheels, including the SB and SJ, are barely mentioned in passing. Tormek innovation has been outstanding; sharing that innovation knowledge has been frustratingly marginal.
In the past, Tormek has made some outstanding videos. I consider Tormek's turning DVD to be the gold standard of Tormek training videos. Alan Holtham's videos are a close second, especially his video on using the DBS-22 drill bit jig. As I use my DBS-22 infrequently, I always watch Alan's video first. The interview that Stig did with Stumpy Nubs is very informative. It should be required viewing for prospective Tormek owners, as well as more experienced owners.
I like Wolfgang as a presenter. The knife video provides a lot of good information without needing a Hollywood movie set or a "cast of thousands". Tormek has a capable staff and a nice studio/teaching facility. There are numerous topics which could be well covered in depth in short, five to ten minute videos. While aimed at skill development, these would also have good marketing potential.
We of the forum would happily offer suggestions for videos. We represent serious Tormek users around the world. Whereas an instagram or facebook viewer may decide to purchase a T8, many of us use more than one Tormek, including everything from the T8 to the T4 and SuperGrinds, to a surprising number of T2s. We have purchased multiple grinding wheels, DBS-22, and a fair number of diamond wheels. We are also eager to watch and study the videos that Tormek makes.
We deserve to be notified first hand about new videos and products. I don't bother with facebook and instagram. I don't want to wade through a lot of content looking for possible Tormek material.
Keep up the good work and please keep us posted.
best regards,
Ken
ps I would not object if you made a video of one of your classes for us. It would cost considerably less than bringing all of us to Holland or Sweden. :)
Hi again and thanks for the welcome. I appreciate all the input and we will try to be better in the future to inform you guys about news etc.
We would like to post more videos in the future but it is often a matter of time. Even a short movie that isn't Hollywood produced takes a great deal of time and several of us Country sales manager like Wolfgang and myself travel a lot also so it is at times difficult to produce videos at the paste we would desire.
But I completely agree with you Ken, videos are important and good way to show people what a great machine the Tormek is and help people using the machine at its full potential, which you guys on the forum are doing a great job with.
Unfortunately I didn't have time to contact or meet the "Dutchman" with an already busy scheduele. Perhaps next time in Holland.
A video sharping class broadcasted on internet perhaps could be a good Idea. I will discuss the possibilites with out media departement.
Best regards
Sebastien
Quote from: Sebastien on March 09, 2019, 06:25:00 PM
...
We would like to post more videos in the future but it is often a matter of time. Even a short movie that isn't Hollywood produced takes a great deal of time and several of us Country sales manager like Wolfgang and myself travel a lot also so it is at times difficult to produce videos at the paste we would desire.
...
Sebastien
Videos don't have to be that involved... just point a camera at a machine and show what you're doing. Look at Jeff Farris' old videos... simple but effective.
Most of what you're doing now, education wise, is barely worth watching... it has very little actual "how to" content, IMO. The video in this thread is a good example. Very little explanation... glossing over most of the "how to". You could have put out a 30 sec. clip... "look you can make repairs on the side of the wheel"... and it would have covered about all that was shown. (And you could have had an even longer lunch). ;)
Ouch! I think you are being a little rough, CB. I think this latest knife sharpening video is a good step in the right direction. I want to encourage Tormek to continue making videos. I hope this video will be the first fruit in a series of more technical videos. Admittedly, some of us have advanced beyond this stage. However, we have many beginners in our ranks. I would not want the first video to intimidate them. It is a good building block, something long overdue. I welcome it and eagerly anticipate more.
I follow the forum stats regularly. Usually there a few logged in members online AND perhaps thirty guests. (I realize that some of the "guests" are really members who have not logged on, however, there are still a lot of interested guests!) I have never believed that Tormek management fully appreciates the financial value of the forum to Tormek. If the forum was fully appreciated, management would allocate sufficient resources to training videos. Tormek has resources: trained, experienced personnel and a fine studio/ training facility. If financial resources were routed to training videos, they would not only benefit us; they would bolster the dealer/sales personnel staff.
I live in hope.
Ken
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 09, 2019, 07:18:55 PM
Videos don't have to be that involved... just point a camera at a machine and show what you're doing. Look at Jeff Farris' old videos... simple but effective.
Most of what you're doing now, education wise, is barely worth watching... it has very little actual "how to" content, IMO. The video in this thread is a good example. Very little explanation... glossing over most of the "how to". You could have put out a 30 sec. clip... "look you can make repairs on the side of the wheel"... and it would have covered about all that was shown. (And you could have had an even longer lunch). ;)
cbwx4, there are sure several ways to word your comments. Let me give you a feedback that sometimes tone of your comments is discouraging others from posting on this forum. As you can imagine, there may be sensitive persons that prefer to stay in the "read mode" not to lay themselves open to ridicule.
I know you long enough, you bear no malice, only some of your comments that you put as entertaining are not perceived as such by the readers.
The intention of this video scenario to complete all tasks using only Tormek machine is clear to everyone, and the video makers know there are quicker ways to do big repairs. Yet smaller repairs and bolster reduction we often do on the side of the stone wheel.
Now let me make a polite caution regarding the comment in the video that the diamond wheel would work faster - no blade should be ground perpendicular to the diamond layer as it will strip off too many diamonds. As a matter of fact we do not even grind scissors on our CBN wheels at 60 degrees because of that; we avoid any grinding on our CBN wheels that requires over 30 dps – the higher the grinding angle, the more CBN/diamond crystals are stripped off.
.
Quote from: Ken S on March 10, 2019, 01:44:53 AM
Ouch! I think you are being a little rough, CB. I think this latest knife sharpening video is a good step in the right direction. I want to encourage Tormek to continue making videos. I hope this video will be the first fruit in a series of more technical videos. Admittedly, some of us have advanced beyond this stage. However, we have many beginners in our ranks. I would not want the first video to intimidate them. It is a good building block, something long overdue. I welcome it and eagerly anticipate more.
I follow the forum stats regularly. Usually there a few logged in members online AND perhaps thirty guests. (I realize that some of the "guests" are really members who have not logged on, however, there are still a lot of interested guests!) I have never believed that Tormek management fully appreciates the financial value of the forum to Tormek. If the forum was fully appreciated, management would allocate sufficient resources to training videos. Tormek has resources: trained, experienced personnel and a fine studio/ training facility. If financial resources were routed to training videos, they would not only benefit us; they would bolster the dealer/sales personnel staff.
I live in hope.
Ken
Quote from: wootz on March 10, 2019, 03:06:52 AM
cbwx4, there are sure several ways to word your comments. Let me give you a feedback that sometimes tone of your comments is discouraging others from posting on this forum. As you can imagine, there may be sensitive persons that prefer to stay in the "read mode" not to lay themselves open to ridicule.
I know you long enough, you bear no malice, only some of your comments that you put as entertaining are not perceived as such by the readers.
I'm totally serious in my comments... that video had very little info of value. Could either of you recommend that video to someone who came along wanting to know how to repair a knife... without any other info?
I stand by what I wrote. ;)
Edit: maybe I should explain why. They spent 3 1/2 hours, shooting a video for what they said was 25 min. work. Now, which would you rather see, a <5 min. video with "retakes, different angles" etc. (what Sebastian wrote earlier) barely covering what was done, or a one or two camera video showing the entire process from start to finish, from grading the side of the stone, to the end? Sure you could edit out some of the time of just repairing the knife... after perhaps explaining how to hold it, how to move it so you don't gouge the side, how to manipulate the knife, etc. Then a quick cut where you say... "we spent 10 min. on this part"... and continue on to repairing the edge... how to shape it, don't just focus on the damage, etc.... then on to sharpening (maybe a quick tip here to keep your bevel that you've now flattened on the side of the stone centered, etc.) on thru to the final result. With some of the "monotonous work" edited out, you now have a video full of tips, that's 10-12 mins. long.
That's the point I'm trying to make. I don't think I'm being harsh at all.... I think they should refocus their effort on making a more educational video.
p.s. And Ken just for you (well Tormek too)... how about a quick trip down memory lane?
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2102.0
Hopefully, I've made my point? :-\
Not having looked at the video until the recent above discussion, I believe the video is well done. True it would be easier understood by one somewhat familiar with the general process of knife sharpening. I obviously am not one who has delved into the intracacies of the fine art of knife sharpening like Wootz, CB, Grepper etc., but it made good sense to me. I also feel it showed enough that with a little research, a beginner can decipher what is happening.
Thank you Tormek.
My nephew just gave me a cleaver with 2 large gouges in the blade. I want to try to repair. What about grinding/reshaping the edge by grinding the edge with the face of the grind stone not the side of the stone?
Quote from: GeoTech on March 13, 2019, 12:20:09 AM
My nephew just gave me a cleaver with 2 large gouges in the blade. I want to try to repair. What about grinding/reshaping the edge by grinding the edge with the face of the grind stone not the side of the stone?
That's what I would do. I do most repairs simply by sharpening, but at a much higher angle. A cleaver may present some challenges, depending on how you sharpen (jig/freehand), and the actual damage... but with a bit of practice you can freehand the blade on the face of the stone, at a high angle... (almost 90° in some cases), and grind out the damage and/or reshape the blade as needed. I move it across the stone, similar to how it will be sharpened. Once the damage is gone, then lower the angle and sharpen in a new edge.
I would use a similar method to CB. Before starting I would lightly true the wheel to grade it for its maximum sharpness. Using the vertical grinding into position, I would set the Torlock platform at a right angle to the wheel. If you don't have the Torlock platform, set the support bar (usb) very close to the grinding wheel as a platform.
No need to flip the knife over at this stage. You will be grinding it square.
You can use either the Torlock platform or the support bar as a support rest when you regrind the bevels.
Ken
Ken, I do have a Torlock platform and that is how I planned to do it. Thanks guys.
SteveB has a short clip on making a tip repair on the face of the wheel...
https://youtu.be/xYrlJizVGbQ