When I wrote my CBN review a couple years ago, I contacted two vendors, woodturnerswonders and D-Way. My intention was to test both brands using the Tormek wet and dry. Ken Rizza of woodturnerswonders informed me that his wheels should only be used dry. His website also stated that using them wet would void the warranty. Dave Sweitzer of D-Way told me his wheels could be used wet or dry. This information, combined with only D-Way making wheels to fit my T4, caused me to proceed with only D-Way wheels.
I purchased a D-Way 180 grit wheel for my T4. Dave also loaned me 80 and 180 grit wheels for my T8, which I later purchased. I reviewed only the D-Way wheels.
I just learned from Ken Rizza that his woodturnerswonders wheels can be used wet with the Tormek. He adds the caution that they should be used with an antioxidant solution, just like the D-Way wheels and Tormek diamond wheels should be used. He also stipulates that they should be dried off after use. Again, this is good practice with any CBN or diamond wheel. I advised him that I would correct my review to reflect the new information.
I understand why a vendor would be reluctant to have his wheels used wet. Not all users would be careful enough to use antioxidant solution and dry off the wheels.
Ken also told me that he just received his first order of CBN wheels for the T4. They are 8x1.5 inches with a 12mm bore, an ideal fit for the T4. They should soon be on his website. I do not know grit sizes. Another new accessory is a 5/8" to 12mm reducing bushing. This will allow any of the present lineup of eight inch CBN wheels to be used with a Tormek. (12mm spacer or fender washers may be necessary. They are available in hardware stores.) One of these reducing bushings would be a real improvement over my primitive reamed out plastic pipe solution for Norton 3X wheels.
I am pleased to see that more CBN wheels can be used wet, the way a wheel should be used with the Tormek. I am very pleased to see more CBN wheels available for the T4.
When I write reviews, I try to present the information fairly and objectively. When facts change, I feel obligated to update the reviews.
Ken
Thanks for the update Ken. I am glad that Ken Rizza has spoken about this with you. I think that he is being too conservative with his strict warnings against using the wheels wet, when it is really just rust that is the problem, not water. But like you, I can see his conundrum: customers are sure to fail or forget to use and antioxidant additive and then complain to him about the rust.
As I have noted before, I got my CBN wheels to use dry (to keep the raw wood knife handles dry) but use them wet on tools that I don't mind getting wet. I have been surprised to find that I don't mind using the wheels dry. It runs against my instinct, but I have gotten used to the sound and the grind scratch pattern looks the same to me. I don't sense any appreciable airborne particulates and I get the feeling that they grind faster when dry. But that might just be me reading my assumption into the result, I haven't tried to test it.
It is good to hear about the bushings, but I was on the verge of justifying a hobbyist metal lathe to make x" to 12mm bushings; now I will have to conjure up some other pressing need.
Gord
Does the grit on the CBN wheels eventually wear out.
If so, what is the expected life and/or can they be refurbished
by the manufacturer?
Best Wishes
Tim
Good question, Tim. I forwarded this topic to a major CBN wheel vendor. I will post his reply.
Ken
Here is a link to the new CBN wheels for the T4:
https://woodturnerswonders.com/products/tornado-jr-cbn-wheel-12-mm-arbor
Ken
Tim,
Here is Ken Rizza's reply to your longevity wuestion:
"Hi Ken- thanks for the email update. I did go in and read it all. Well done. Regarding the longevity its a hard question. Anything abrasive is going to wear out at some point and it is a function of use, care, and materials being ground. A popular wood turning tool manufacturer uses CBN wheels in his factory to profile his tools before shipping them out. His grinder never shuts off during the day and they last him about a year. That is a lot of grinding which compared to most wood turners would translate to years I would think. It isn't economically feasible to re-coat them I don't believe. We are the same age so I don't even buy green bananas anymore. 😱☺"
On a practical level, the T4 size CBN wheels cost just under twice the price of a replacement SG-200. Costwise, if a CBN lasts more than twice as long as an SG-200, it becomes cost effective. I have no doubt that the useful life of a CBN wheel is far longer than two times the useful life of the SG-200. This does not take into account the cutting rate of a CBN wheel or the advantages of using the side for flat grinding.
I have no illusion of any grinding wheel lasting "forever". I do believe that an occasional user like me will probably expire before the CBN wheel expires.
Ken
To me there is another factor that should be considered. What happens if the wheel gets messed up? For instance falling off a farmer's my table (did I read that some where?) or slip from one's hand? What then?
This is comparing apples to oranges, but I do a fair amount of chainsaw chain sharpening. I would really like to try a CBN wheel on my chain grinder, but I am afraid to. Why? Because I have broken several grinding wheels by various accidents. Yes, mostly because I got into them with my wheel chair. But when a CBN wheel costs 10 times more than a regular wheel for my chainsaw grinder.......🤔
The wheels for the Tormek are many times thicker than the chainsaw wheels.
It might be that the CBN wheel for the Tormek might withstand more abuse than SG?.
These are just some rambling thoughts.
Elden,
You raise an interesting issue. No doubt, you are aware of the ring test in traditional dry grinding. It is good practice (for safety) to hold a new or newly acquired grinding wheel with a rod through the bore. The side of the wheel is then tapped with a wrench. An undamaged wheel will give off a ringing sound. A wheel with an internal crack will give off a thud sound.
A ceramic grinding wheel, like a ceramic plate or cup, can crack if dropped. A CBN wheel is made like a machined pulley, with a machined steel or 6061 aluminum body. I can't imagine one cracking, although I can envision one possibly bending if hit with enough force.
I have never sharpened a chain saw chain. I have seen someone sharpen one with a file and flexible shaft Foredom grinder. I have no idea what grinding wheels, either ceramic or CBN, for a chain grinder might look like or cost. You know better than I do, what is the probability of bending a chain grinding wheel?
Sharpening chain saw chains might become a profitable side line for some of our members with a sharpening business.
Ken
Quote from: Elden on January 19, 2019, 07:37:22 AM
To me there is another factor that should be considered. What happens if the wheel gets messed up? For instance falling off a farmer's my table (did I read that some where?) or slip from one's hand? What then?
...snip...
Elden,
That was me, an SJ wheel fell off of a folding table that collapsed as I was loading up at the end of a farmer's market activity. Cracked it beyond use/repair. Still have not replaced it.
I agree with Ken about a metal grinding wheel probably not cracking, but I can see it getting dented in such a way as to be not usable. I would not want to have any of my Tormek diamond wheels fall that way.
Rick
Ken,
I am acquainted with ring testing. Attached are a couple of pictures which will give a fair idea of a CBN wheel for chainsaw grinding. The two common thicknesses that I use are 1/8" and 3/16". When a handle on a power wheel chair connects with a regular grinding wheel, they are broken before one knows what is happening. While the CBN probably would not break, I think they would bend very easily. 0.125" (1 /8") and 0.1875" (3/16") are not very thick. A bent chainsaw grinding wheel would practically worthless.
The CBN wheels would be much more substantial to applied side pressure. I can not help wonder what damage would be sustained if the wheel was dropped on the face. Simply said, do not ever drop it and find out! However, dropping things occur regularly with me. :-[
Rick,
I knew it was either you or Rich. Didn't take it the time to look it up. That makes all of us feel sick for you. :-X
Best regards,
Elden
Elden,
Is the difficulty the wheel or the way the chain grinder is secured to your wheelchair?
Ken
Ken,
The grinders (2 of them) are mounted onto a 7/16" piece of wafer board using bolts and T nuts. That is clamped to the shop work bench. When the weather is nice, it can be clamped to an outside table / work bench. The problem is when I spin around without paying enough attention to what I am doing. I have snapped a couple or so due to the lack of proper attentiveness. Recently it has not been as much of a problem due to more open floor space and the dreaded extended handles are not on my current chair. Not sure why they were ever put on a power chair!
The grinder head sticks out beyond the edge of the work bench. The chain does not contact the bench, but hangs down toward the floor. Attaching another photo that was online. While this picture shows it mounted on its own stand, you can get the idea of how it would be mounted on a bench.
This is a personal problem that has nothing to do with the Tormek. It just made me wonder what would happen to any CBN wheel that happened to get dropped, particularly on the grinding face.
Elden
Elden,
I could have used your help several years ago. I hired a tree trimmer to remove several ash trees which had been infected and died. I had no idea that the previous owner had tried to "fix" the problem by filling one of the trees with concrete. The concrete and the chainsaw did not play nicely together. :(
Maybe you should post speed limit signs in your shop to slow that cowboy driver........
Ken
Ah, the joys of not knowing what is hidden inside of a tree! One of my son's first jobs, had a tree with a steel T fence post buried inside of it. Of course, it wasn't visible, either. It just happened to be a new chain.
Ken,
Any idea why CBN wheel vendors say not to use them in water ?
Kind regards,
Rich
Good question, Rich. I do not have a definitive answer, just a somewhat educated guess. I think the answer has two parts: the water, and the antioxidant.
Based on the number of stories we have heard over the years, a number of Tormek users just leave their grindstones in the water between sharpening sessions. While rusted shafts are mostly in the past, staining of the grinding wheels persists. I gather that water may cause trapped grinding particles to rust.
Ideally, the water trough should be left dry and clean between sessions. It should at least be lowered (T8) or dismounted to leave the grinding wheel dry. If one was not diplomatic, one might consider this due to ignorance or laziness.
CBN and diamond both seem to need an antioxidant compound. The first CBN test I ran was with the eight inch D-Way wheel I purchased and plain water. Surface rust quickly appeared on the steel reducing bushing and the drilled balance holes. The very light rust was easily and quickly removed. I discontinued plain water testing. I had no problem when I used Honerite Gold anti oxidant compound.
(Tormek ACC was not yet available.)
At the risk of being blunt, I think some of us may just be too cheap to buy the antioxidant compound, forgetting the cost of the wheels.
I know the least about Tormek's DWF and DWC-200 diamond wheels. They are marketed only for dry use and only with the T2. They are supposedly constructed differently than the newer diamond wheels. I gather (from Tormek) that they will disintegrate if used wet. I do not understand this.
This is not a good answer; we need better answers.
Ken
Thank you for the follow-up Ken. I don't use a T-4 at this time. I have seen the T8 compatible CBN's in a 180 grit for a comparable price of a new tormek wheel.
Seems reasonable to use this for more aggressive grinding on very worn bevels or new bevels after reshaping a blade,
and considerably extend the life of my tormek stone. Would also be useful for axe blades. I see many advantages to having a wheel that maintains a consistent size also.
Seriously considering as my next purchase and will share my results when I do.
Best Wishes
Tim
Tim,
I think you have a good plan. The SG does yeoman service for sharpening, however, Tormek has never made a really coarse grinding wheel for heavy grinding. The DWC-250 coarse diamond wheel is a good step in that direction, but only part way there.
I don't believe this will apply to you, however, for the benefit of our readers, I always recommend replacing a grinding wheel before it is fully worn. This is especially important if someone is replacing an SG with another wheel, such as the SB or a diamond wheel. Leave enough useful grinding wheel to be able to compare the old and new wheels "side by side".
Keep us posted.
Ken
The only thing I'd add to Ken's last comment is to find someone else who may have a Tormek and befriend them. They will often offer chances to try before buying. And you may be able to help them too.
Kind regards,
Rich
I agree completely with Rich. How many of us would purchase a vehicle or a home sight unseen? How many would purchase that vehicle without the customary test drive?
I was very fortunate when I purchased my first Tormek T7. A month prior, I took a weekend handcut dovetail class with Ernie Conover. Ernie was a longtime trusted teacher, sharpening expert, and friend. I had the opportunity for an honest, informative one on one discussion with him.
Several years later, I had the rare good fortune of meeting and working with Steve Bottorff. Steve has become both a friend and my knife guru.
A third happy occurance has been getting to know Stig Reitan as a friend and Tormek expert.
Few people are this lucky. A typical dealer store may have a T7 or T8 on a display shelf. I have seen an occasional T4, always still in the unopened box. I have never asked, but would be surprised if one of the salespeople could give a demonstration and let me try using the Tormek. There may be a bright spot here. A few dealers offer a sharpening service. If I was intending to purchase a first Tormek, I would call ahead. If the dealer offered the sharpening service, I would make an appointment when the head sharpener was working and meet with that person. You will want to both see the Tormek and talk with a knowledgeable sales person/ Tormek user.
A woodworking or knife show has the potential to be a good opportunity to see and learn about the Tormek. I offer these suggestions to avoid some show pitfalls: 1) Before the show, call Affinity Tool (for US residents. Affinity is the Tormek importer which sends out the demonstrators.) Verify that they will be at the show. Also, ask how early they will be there and if more than one demonstrator will be attending.
The other pitfall is the regulars who only want their pocket knives to be sharpened for free. This can tie up a Tormek demonstrator. Plan to devote several hours of interrupted conversation with the Tormek rep. Hopefully you will have the benefit of talking with more than one rep. If you are lucky, you may be there during a slow time. Do good preplanning. Study videos and write down questions.
Discounts are generally available at shows. Reps generally receive a sales commission. If you are ready to buy, and if the rep has been helpful, he has earned a commission.
If, as Rich suggests, you are fortunate enough to have a Tormek knowledgeable friend, by all means ask him to share his experience with you. Pay the favor forward when you become experienced.
Ken
I replaced my SG at about 210 cm but still use the old one for cleavers and other very wide blades
Best Wishes