My first attempt trying to use the new diamond wheels was a surprise. In fact, it was a disaster. I used my T8, the coarse diamond wheel, and water with the recommended Anti Corrosion Compound. I thought everything was by the book.
My plan was to begin by flattening the back of a chisel. I gradually filled the water trough until the water level almost covered the diamond abrasive on the side of the wheel. Then disaster struck; water came cascading out of the trough.
I am not posting this to be negative about the new new diamond wheels. I do not know what caused the flood. My water trough is not cracked. I am posting this because I might have possibly done something wrong. Someone, or multiple someones, might make the same mistake and blindly blame the Tormek. I like to think I am more open minded.
I did not get far enough along to see how much of the side is usable when used wet.
I have worked with CBN wheels before. CBN wheels are non absorbent. I assume diamond wheels are also non absorbent. With the CBN wheels, I premeasured water and Honerite Gold. Tormek could publish similar numbers, for the T4, T7, and T8. The numbers for the T7 should include different amounts for the older and redesigned water troughs. The measurements for all models should include numbers for use with just the face of the wheel and for using the edge.
I am leaving the jury out on this. I am contacting support. It is after closing time now in Sweden until Monday morning. I will report support's reply. I will also continue exploring for an answer.
I will keep you posted.
Please see my later reply for the second attempt and the solution.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 08, 2018, 08:30:55 PM
...
I gradually filled the water trough until the water level almost covered the diamond abrasive on the side of the wheel. Then disaster struck; water came cascading out of the trough.
I am not posting this to be negative about the new new diamond wheels. I do not know what caused the flood. My water trough is not cracked.
...
I've seen that when "prepping" the T-4 and slowly adding water... there seems to be a point where the wheel will start slinging water out of the trough. Add a little more, and it stops. So... maybe try again with a bit more water... and see what happens?
CB,
I will try your filling suggestion. At this point, the prime suspect is an uninformed operator.
I have not encountered your slinging water problem with the T4; I will investigate.
My next step is to verify that the Tormek is sitting level and very gradually add water from a graduate until I notice spillage. I have seen both a T7 and a T4 run all day at a woodworking show with almost no spillage. (I was carefully checking this.) We will get to the bottom of this.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 08, 2018, 09:06:04 PM
I have not encountered your slinging water problem with the T4; I will investigate.
...
Not really a problem... more of an "anomaly"... no need to investigate. It's not so much that it causes an issue (on the T-4)... just thought it might be a related situation worth mentioning.
It is an interesting issue. It is also one which should be corrected.
Ken
perhaps we can only use the outer third of the diamond wheel when using the side ?????
Later reply, with solution
I started my second attempt essentially the same way as the first attempt. The only difference was the amount of fluid.
With the first attempt, I tried filling until the water level almost covered all of the side abrasive. At 700ml, I first noticed the water spillage. I proceeded more slowly with the second session. I don't remember the height click I used for the first attempt. For the second attempt, I used the highest full click.
I had no spilling at 450 ml. I added another 50ml plus another 20ml to compensate for the ACC. Still no spilling. With that amount of fluid, the side abrasive was almost covered. When I tipped the end of the chisel down to the bottom of the abrasive, everything worked fine. No spillage.
I accept full responsibility for overfilling the water trough. If I had looked more closely, I should have noticed the fill line. While it does not excuse my oversight, I do think the instructions might have been more thorough.
In future posts on the diamond wheels, I plan to develop a milliliter chart for the T4, both T7 troughs, and the T8 trough. The chart will include both levels for regular and side grinding.
The first entry in this chart is 500ml water + 20 ml ml ACC. This measurement is for the T8, top full stop, and side grinding. Since the diamond wheels are non absorbent, these measurements should remain constant.
One related suggestion: I suggest lowering the trough and allowing the excess water to drip off.
Sorry for all the fuss; I hope it heads off problems from other users.
Ken
With all the water, I almost forgot:
Based on only preliminary use, the new coarse diamond wheel reminds me of its smaller brother, the Tormek DWC-200, which I like very much. Even though it is officially 360 grit, I find both of them cut much better than the the 220 grit SG-250 or SB-250. This thought is preliminary. I don't know if the grains have fully stabilized, however, things look promising.
More soon.
Ken
very good report Ken, it definitely is a learning curve.
Thanks, Grizz. I think the hard part of the learning curve with the diamond wheels is unlearning the years of using heavier grinding pressure preached by Tormek. Jeff Farris mentioned it in his chisel video and it is still very much a part of the handbook, even the brand new online version. Old habits die hard.
My observations at this point are only preliminary. I will keep everyone posted. I hope those of you who have ordered diamond wheels will post your thoughts and observations.
Ken
Ken, movement of water caused by rotation of the grindstone partially immerged in water is quite complex matter. When I read your first post about the water cascading I was wondering about increased water adherence to the diamond wheel caused by the addition of the Anti-Corrosion Concentrate.
The water trough overfilling explanation has removed my doubts. :)
Jan
Jan,
In hindsight, this is becoming a good learning situation. Grinding with the side of the wheel on the Tormek is a new experience. I am normally cautious with filling my water trough. I add water gradually during the initial absorbtion period. My goal is always to have adequate water, but no extra. I use a turkey baster to empty the trough. I rarely have any spillage beyond a couple drops. In this new side grinding situation, to use an English idiom, "my brain was out to lunch".
No harm was done. After some quiet reflection, this triggered my response for controlled troubleshooting. After spending thirty five years troubleshooting telephone circuits, that is my thought process. My water trough was not cracked. I thought my table surface was level. After ckecking this with a good level (habitually I also test the level by flipping it end for end, making sure the bubble readings agree), I was confident that all was level.
Whenever I fill with an additive in the water, I use some of my old photo darkroom graduates. I confess that my note taking is not always as conscientious as it should be. I recall the first run having 700ml of water and ACC.
After the spillage, my gut feeling was that I might have overfilled the trough. I reread the instruction booklet which came with the grinding wheel and found no reference to recommended fluid volume. Then I posted my initial caveat post. I also emailed support. I believe that any mistake I am capable of making might also be made by others. I wanted to try and prevent repetition of the same error.
I do not think precise measurement of ACC and water is essential. It seems like watching a chef add olive oil or wine. I do think it is good practice to spend some time initially using graduates (measuring cups) borrowed from the kitchen. I use empty plastic food jars. If we carefully measure XXX ml of water, pour it into a plastic jar, and mark the level with our black marker; any future water poured to that line will be the same volume.
My next order of business will be to use a small graduate to measure the volume of different levels in the ACC bottle cap. (I save things like graduated cold medicine cups for this purpose. After measuring fluids other than water, I don't mind disposing of these; I always have several on hand. My latest larger graduate was a 500ml plastic graduate from my kidney stone stay in the hospital. It was used to measure my urine volume. Hospital practice is to dispose of them. My nurse packed up mine for me; it is now in my shop.
Homemade measuring practice is like using a kenjig or janjig. Precise measurement required only once. Most users will only need measurements for one water trough, and only two measurements, one for regular grinding and one for side grinding. Make a label for how many capfuls of ACC and stick it on the water bottle. Good to go!
I still need to work on brevity in post writing.......
Ken
ps I should mention the Tormek Rubber Workmat. While these are not inexpensive, they are very well designed and manufactured. They are a heavy duty, quality product. Unlike an expensive jig we think we might use someday, the rubber work mat does trooper service during every sharpening session. They make a great Christmas or birthday present which will last for the duration.
Quote from: Ken S on June 09, 2018, 02:02:09 AM
...
Based on only preliminary use, the new coarse diamond wheel reminds me of its smaller brother, the Tormek DWC-200, which I like very much. Even though it is officially 360 grit, I find both of them cut much better than the the 220 grit SG-250 or SB-250. This thought is preliminary. I don't know if the grains have fully stabilized, however, things look promising.
More soon.
Ken
Most diamond stones have a "break-in" period... Tormek acknowledges it in their literature...
Quote from: TormekAt first usage, the diamond surface will seem aggressive, so you should
expect to feel and hear that some diamond grits stand out. After a short
break-in period, the diamond crystals will stabilize to a uniform level to give
a finer surface. This process normally takes 2–5 sharpenings.
Quote from: Jan on June 09, 2018, 12:07:55 PM
Ken, movement of water caused by rotation of the grindstone partially immerged in water is quite complex matter. When I read your first post about the water cascading I was wondering about increased water adherence to the diamond wheel caused by the addition of the Anti-Corrosion Concentrate.
The water trough overfilling explanation has removed my doubts. :)
Jan
I'm glad this was solved, without having to see the math on that! ;)
Quote from: Jan on June 09, 2018, 12:07:55 PM
Ken, movement of water caused by rotation of the grindstone partially immerged in water is quite complex matter. When I read your first post about the water cascading I was wondering about increased water adherence to the diamond wheel caused by the addition of the Anti-Corrosion Concentrate.
The water trough overfilling explanation has removed my doubts. :)
Jan
Interesting. I would have thought the ACC would act as a surfactant, reducing adherence. I have no idea why I thought that as it depends on what the ACC is composed of, of which I also have no idea.
Quote from: Ken S on June 08, 2018, 08:30:55 PM
...snip...
My plan was to begin by flattening the back of a chisel. I gradually filled the water trough until the water level almost covered the diamond abrasive on the side of the wheel. Then disaster struck; water came cascading out of the trough.
...snip...
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 09, 2018, 12:21:26 AM
Later reply, with solution
...snip...
With the first attempt, I tried filling until the water level almost covered all of the side abrasive.
Ken
So, I am curious about your focus on filling so far as to cover all the side abrasive surface. I am wondering how necessary that is.
My assumption (there it is again) is that as the wheel rotates water would spread downward, due to gravity and the lack of absorption, to cover some of the uncovered grit area. Also, I would think the working of a tool on the side would "spread" the solution downward, to some degree (we've all see water build-up on edges on the outer surface and how it flows off to the sides).
I have no experience with diamond wheels (yet), so this is just curiosity.
Rick
Rick,
I have been rethinking my break in strategy with the diamond wheels. My first thought was to use my sharpening chisels to break in the entire wheel of all three wheels. In general, I still think that is a good plan. The bevel of the chisels provide a good grinding surface for the front of the grinding wheels; the chisel backs are ideal for breaking in the side. Among the side benefits is getting a good feel for how the wheels cut. For the review, I will follow this plan.
For my personal use, I don't know if that is the most logical plan. I am sure I will find more uses for flat grinding in the future, however, for the present I live in the round ground world. For jobs like flattening chisel backs, if the coarse wheel was too coarse because the wheel was not broken in, I would just start with the fine wheel. With much side use, the break in issue would take care of itself.
One overlooked thing with the diamond wheels is that in addition to maintaining a constant wheel diameter, they also cut continuously. In a five minute cutting test, they cut as well after several minutes as they do at the start. No wheel dressing is necessary or possible. Read that carefully: DO NOT TRY TO GRADE, DRESS, OR TRUE DIAMOND WHEELS!
I look forward to reading your machinist's thoughts on both the diamond wheels and the Multi Base.
Ken
Ken, I was wondering if the DE wheel leaves a smooth polished surface or a toothy surface ?
Grizz, I will post as soon as as I test it I will post. In the meantime, maybe our friend from Norway will post.
Ken
I think my DE-250 needs more break-in time because the scratch pattern is a little to "heavy" for my taste, I like polished edges.
The edge in the picture is around 0,75mm wide, knife is a Gerber Sportsman V-Steel (1980) sharpened on DF-250, DE-250 and honed on Tormek leather wheel.
BESS 103.
Sorry for crappy picture, I only have a cheap eBay microscope.
Cheers,
TM
Interesting photo. Scratches look pretty much like after mine broke-in #1000 CBN, but I have to say that in the beginning this CBN wheel was like #800, so I see a pattern here.
My schedule has allowed time to use the new diamond wheels in small doses. Most recently, completed today, I reshaped a turning skew, This involved extensive work with the DC-250 360 grit wheel. The project took most of a week, due mostly to my inexperience with sharpening turning tools. I did notice that as my technique improved, the wheel cut better.The non changing wheel diameter gets most of the press. However, what really stands out to me is the grinding sound. The diamond wheels start out with a good grinding sound. Unlike the SG and, in my experience, the SB, that healthy grinding sound and feel does not lessen. (After the initial breaking in period)
I have not had a chance to sharpen knives with the diamond wheels. My experiences with the skew chisel is very positive.
Ken
I have all three diamond wheels now and have been using them more. I am experiencing what I consider excessive water spillage when using them, compared to the stone wheels. With the stones, there is always some water spillage, mostly collecting in the swivel base and sometimes spilling onto the table or stool that the machine is on. But nothing like what I'm seeing with the diamond wheels.
It is annoying in its own right, having to mop up that much water and being careful about what is in its path that could be damaged, but it is concerning how much of the ACC laced water is "consumed". For my last farmers market gig, I started with a pint (16oz/473ml) and came home with a cup (8oz/236ml) and I really didn't sharpen that much (that's another story). That is one whole dose of 10ml of the ACC lost to spillage, and that is happening just about every time I use the diamond wheels. At 25 "doses" per bottle and $20 per bottle, that could amount to $20 per month with regular usage. That seems excessive also. (More on the order of $10/mo. at my usage rate.)
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3635.0;attach=2551)
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3635.0;attach=2553)
This is not the same as what Ken S posted about previously, "slinging" out of the trough. This is water that rides up on the blade and either drops off on the case to the left or directly onto the bench beyond the trough to the right. I put the drip guard on to catch the spillage on the right, but have not done anything about it on the left. And this is happening with medium sized knives (6"/152mm).
It seems there is a lot of water that rides along the edge of the knife after is passed over the diamond wheels and drops off. I've tried tilting the knife a little to try to get the water to drain back onto the wheel, but that is not all that effective. I've also tried lowering the trough so only a little bit of the wheel is immersed, but it quickly "runs out of water" and goes dry, requiring the trough to be raised or more ACC water added and that doesn't wet the side of the wheel much at all.
I believe this is not a matter of the machine being out of level. It is on a level table, on either my (nearly) level garage floor or a level concrete sidewalk. Both of those surfaces have to have some slope, but it is very minor ~ 1%. If those aren't level enough, then there is a machine design flaw, IMHO.
I'm seriously considering fabricating a drip guard to put over the case that would direct the spillage back into the trough, but there isn't much space down between the wheel/case/trough and it would have to extend over the upper lip of the trough as it is raised and lowered. A modestly tricky feat. A thicker backing spacer could be used, but dang it, that just shouldn't be necessary.
Has anyone else found anything similar and I hope there will be good ideas on what is happening and what can be done about it?
Rick
This has bugged me to (with the regular stone). I've had better luck keeping it under control by tipping the knife slightly sometimes (not really a good solution), and by slowing down the travel across the stone, giving the water a 'chance' to run off the knife back down the stone, and not across and onto the machine. If you try this and pay attention... you'll notice the faster you move a knife across the stone... the more water seems to flow onto the machine.
The old Supergrind models were elevated on one side to help the water flow back to the outside... might try that. (I know it's been talked about before, but couldn't find it).
If you type spillage in the search box... you'll find several threads... so it's definitely an issue. In one, I found this idea that I posted before (made by someone else)...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BEnC8BPgCgU/
... (since you like to build stuff). ;)
I first started measuring the amount if water I put into the trough when I tried using CBN wheels wet with Honerite Gold on my Tormek. Ignore the water level lines on the water trough when using CBN ir diamond wheels; they are designed for the Original (absorbtive) wheels.
By measuring, I learned that the water efficient T8 water trough required 125ml of water (+ 6ml of either Honerite Gold or Tormek ACC). I have not experienced more than a little spillage with that amount if water. The longest knife I have ever sharpened is is eight inches (200mm). I have never used the attachment for long knives. I am sure that I should use it; I have just never felt the need to use it.
I suspect my passes are done more slowly than other users.
I will observe my future use more carefully. For the present, I suspect the spillage problem may be caused by overfilling.
Incidentally, reusing the water plus ACC does not seem to cause problems. My plan is to first reuse it a few times with the diamond wheels and then, before discarding it, to use it with an Original wheel.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on September 15, 2018, 04:02:55 PM
...snip...
Incidentally, reusing the water plus ACC does not seem to cause problems. My plan is to first reuse it a few times with the diamond wheels and then, before discarding it, to use it with an Original wheel.
Ken
With a smile, I can say that I am reusing "what ACC laced water" remains after a session. I put it in a yogurt container to let whatever settle and then pour it off to a cup sized Mason jar and let it settle again.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on September 15, 2018, 04:20:26 PM
With a smile, I can say that I am reusing "what ACC laced water" remains after a session. I put it in a yogurt container to let whatever settle and then pour it off to a cup sized Mason jar and let it settle again.
Rick
From what I hear... "yogurt knife sharpening" might appeal to some areas of Oregon... ;)
If you are ready to get into diamond wheels, here is a deal. Tormek is running a 10% off sale on accessories, I find that I am overstocked on the Diamond wheels and need to clear out a few sets. Go to:
https://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/student.htm
There you will find sale prices plus additional student discounts. Continental USA only.
Student discounts are refunds of fees I have collected from my students and refunding them does not violate Tormek pricing policy as long as I do not advertise them. This webpage is unlisted, please do not share it outside this forum.
Do not overlook the listing on Steve's website for his Sharpening School video. I have always thought it was a bargain at the original full price. I would not pass up this price for this excellent training aid.
Ken
Quote from: cbwx34 on September 15, 2018, 05:20:58 PM
...snip...
From what I hear... "yogurt knife sharpening" might appeal to some areas of Oregon... ;)
Yes, but that is definitely NOT Halfway Ore. even Baker County.
Portland, Eugene, Ashland and Bend, yes:
Portland - just eclectic and "weird",
Eugene - dominated by a liberal state university and the "hippie-center" of the state,
Ashland - Shakespeare theatrical center and "border-town" to California and
Bend - assimilated by the Borg-California
8)