Tormek Community Forum

In the Shop => Knife Sharpening => Topic started by: cbwx34 on April 06, 2018, 11:35:20 PM

Poll
Question: What angle (per side) is the knife sharpened at?
Option 1: 12.5° votes: 1
Option 2: 19° votes: 1
Option 3: 22° votes: 2
Option 4: 25° votes: 1
Option 5: 28° votes: 2
Option 6: 31° votes: 0
Option 7: Other... votes: 1
Title: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on April 06, 2018, 11:35:20 PM
The pictured knife has a side taper of 3° per side. 

The Angle Master, sitting on the taper area, reads 25°. 

What angle (per side) is the knife sharpened at?  ???

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2003)
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: Fedor on April 07, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
Is it a matter of holding a quiz? A question on wits?
If you need an exact answer, it's best to use:

http://ermak-laser.ru/services/lazernyj-uglomer-ermak-50/

http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/lgpm.htm

http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/lkep.htm

Or use the method as in this video:

https://youtu.be/3ICnxj6TDjs

Yours faithfully Fedor.
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: Fedor on April 07, 2018, 02:08:36 PM
I apologize for the offtopic.
For lifehack you will need:
Laser modul:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=High+Precision+635nm+5mW+Red+Line+Laser+Diode+Module+for+Marking+device&_sop=15

The transporter with his own hands:

http://www.luaz967.ru/compiz/transportir-svoimi-rukami/

https://yadi.sk/i/3HXvbXIP3UBxR2

We get
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on April 07, 2018, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: Fedor on April 07, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
Is it a matter of holding a quiz? A question on wits?
If you need an exact answer, it's best to use:


Thanks for the reply.  Just a "thought provoking" quiz.  (No question of "wits", answers can be anonymous). ;)

Good thoughts though!
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: SharpenADullWitt on April 07, 2018, 06:43:17 PM
Try the OUTSIDE of the anglemaster.  What angle does it fit, divide in half.
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on April 07, 2018, 06:55:40 PM
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on April 07, 2018, 06:43:17 PM
Try the OUTSIDE of the anglemaster.  What angle does it fit, divide in half.

The answer is in the question... no measuring needed.  ;)
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: bisonbladesharpening on April 07, 2018, 07:53:50 PM
I look at it just like a secondary bevel, so 22 plus 3 =25 from the spine of the knife.
Sharpening angle should be 22.


Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: SharpenADullWitt on April 07, 2018, 08:08:33 PM
Quote from: cbwx34 on April 07, 2018, 06:55:40 PM
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on April 07, 2018, 06:43:17 PM
Try the OUTSIDE of the anglemaster.  What angle does it fit, divide in half.

The answer is in the question... no measuring needed.  ;)
No, no measuring needed, because it is already set.  That doesn't mean I don't think some future reader will get the idea this is the way you are supposed to use it. ;)
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on April 07, 2018, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on April 07, 2018, 08:08:33 PM
Quote from: cbwx34 on April 07, 2018, 06:55:40 PM
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on April 07, 2018, 06:43:17 PM
Try the OUTSIDE of the anglemaster.  What angle does it fit, divide in half.

The answer is in the question... no measuring needed.  ;)
No, no measuring needed, because it is already set.  That doesn't mean I don't think some future reader will get the idea this is the way you are supposed to use it. ;)

Not sure I understand your thinking... measuring the angle on the side of the Angle Master, won't tell you what angle you're sharpening at.

Edit to add:  I might understand the disconnect here... I'm just looking for... what angle is the knife being sharpened at (before sharpening), not seeing what it is after it's done.
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: Fernando on April 10, 2018, 09:40:45 PM
Quote from: Fedor on April 07, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
Is it a matter of holding a quiz? A question on wits?
If you need an exact answer, it's best to use:

http://ermak-laser.ru/services/lazernyj-uglomer-ermak-50/

http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/lgpm.htm

http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/lkep.htm

Or use the method as in this video:

https://youtu.be/3ICnxj6TDjs

Yours faithfully Fedor.

It would be great to have such a tool
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on June 05, 2018, 11:35:21 PM
The answer....

The AngleMaster, if used according to the manual, sets the angle being sharpened based on the area above the bevel, as seen in the Tormek Handbook...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2236)
... however this assumes a flat surface above the bevel...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2238)

...to correctly set the sharpening angle.  Most knives however, as shown in the original question, have a "secondary grind" that is also angled, throwing off the AngleMaster...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2240)

... so if you want to sharpen the knife at 25dps, you set the angle at 28°...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2242)

... and if the AngleMaster is kept at 25°, the sharpening angle is actually 22°...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2244)

So, the answer in this example was 22°. :)

Thanks for playing!  :D

My next poll may be... do you like polls? ::)
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: WolfY on June 06, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
If measuring on the Primary bevel, e.g the blade and it is not straight but have an angle like in your case, I deduct the degrs from the reading like you did. I don't measure it so precisely but know that for kitchen knives it is normally about 1.5dgrs/ side.
Exactly like explains in the Tormek bible + self thinking/ understanding  :P
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: wootz on June 06, 2018, 01:06:03 PM
@cbwx34 - as much as the upper side of the blade "throws off" the angle by 3 degrees, the other side does the same in the opposite direction, and in the end you get on your edge what the AngleMaster shows, don't you?
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on June 06, 2018, 03:00:56 PM
Quote from: wootz on June 06, 2018, 01:06:03 PM
@cbwx34 - as much as the upper side of the blade "throws off" the angle by 3 degrees, the other side does the same in the opposite direction, and in the end you get on your edge what the AngleMaster shows, don't you?

If the AngleMaster was being placed directly on the bevel being sharpened, as seen in the top photo...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2236)

... you would be correct.  But when it's placed on the secondary bevel, as in the bottom of the photo, and that bevel has an angle... it effects the reading, but doesn't "cancel out".

BTW... that is one advantage of using something like your calculator... it measures the "true" angle, and you don't have to deal with this. ;)

Quote from: WolfY on June 06, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
If measuring on the Primary bevel, e.g the blade and it is not straight but have an angle like in your case, I deduct the degrs from the reading like you did. I don't measure it so precisely but know that for kitchen knives it is normally about 1.5dgrs/ side.
Exactly like explains in the Tormek bible + self thinking/ understanding  :P

Yea... a good "rule of thumb"... a degree or two for kitchen knives, 3-4 degrees will cover most pocket style knives, etc.
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on June 06, 2018, 06:55:08 PM
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 06, 2018, 03:00:56 PM
BTW... that is one advantage of using something like your calculator... it measures the "true" angle, and you don't have to deal with this. ;)

In fact, I'll expand on this a bit...

I took a knife that had a decent secondary bevel, measured the dimensions, and calculated it with a "Triangle Calculator"...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2254)
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2256)

... this came out to around 11.5°, so about 6° per side.

I then set the angle using the "Knifegrinders Calculator" to 20° per side...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2258)

Now comparing it with the AngleMaster set at 20°...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2260)

vs. setting it to "correct" for the secondary bevel at 26°...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2262)

shows the adjustment that is needed.

p.s.  Don't confuse it with measuring directly to the primary bevel(edge angle in the Tormek manual)...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3573.0;attach=2264)

... that would be set to the total angle being sharpened = 40°
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: Ken S on June 07, 2018, 12:22:49 AM
You may call me the odd man out, however, I do not use the  Anglemaster with knives.

We have to decide how to choose bevel angles: Do we religiously follow the angle used by the manufacturer? Do we follow the angle(s) established by whatever means by former sharpeners? Do we follow the recommendations of the handbook and other sources? Or, do we follow the well done research performed by our own Wootz (Knife Grinders)? (In my humble opinion, the most intelligent choice.)

Do we establish our choice of angle by trying to use the Anglemaster? (fine for chisels, but difficult for knives) The black marker is a favorite method of duplicating angles. My simple needs have been well served by the humble kenjig, very efficient in use and based on Dutchman's excellent grinding booklet. For those willing to trade a bit of speed of use for superior accuracy, Wootz' (Knife Grinders) computer applet will not disappoint even the most demanding user.

I would be remiss if I failed to mention the humble Substitute Target designed to provide a flat measuring surface instead of tapered knives.

I would not want to be without my Anglemaster, I hardly ever use mine.

Ken
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: Grizz on June 07, 2018, 01:35:51 AM
I pretty much agree Ken. I sharpen all my kitchen knives to 12 degrees and use Wootz app to set everything up. I rarely have to use the angle master
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: cbwx34 on June 07, 2018, 04:00:05 AM
No argument from me... there are better ways. ;)
Title: Re: What Angle Is This Knife Sharpened At?
Post by: Ken S on June 07, 2018, 01:19:23 PM
In my opinion, not all Tormek jigs and accessories have  advanced at the same pace. I think the drill bit jig leads the pack as the most sophisticated jig. The best combination is the new 186 gouge jig and the TTS-100 set up tool. The woodturners also have the best Tormek video, although The drill bit jig has also been covered by Tormek video. I really like the adjustable camber feature of the new SE-77 jig.

I think the five new diamond wheels (two for the T2/4; three for the T7/8) are a giant step forward, although video support has not caught up yet.

I feel knife sharpening is advancing at a slower pace, both in jigs and video support.   I also feel that the stone grader will eventually be made of diamond or CBN.

Ken