https://www.tormek.com/international/en/about-tormek/news-archive/new-diamond-wheels-and-multi-base/
I hope to be able to sharpen concave blades(e.g. karambit) using the edge of the wheel.
Excellent reporting, Sharpco!
I have long believed that Tormek would eventually include diamond or CBN wheels in its product lineup. I have been very pleased with the performance of my three third party CBN wheels and, more recently, with the DWF and DWC 200 mm wheels originally designed for the T2. (They also work quite nicely with the T4.)
Based on using these related wheels and reading the announcement from Tormek, Tormek seems to have blown all the other wheels out of the water!!!! In addition to a complete line up of grits 220, 600, and 1200), Tormek has made the flat side of the grinding wheel at least an order of magnitude more useful with both a generous (huge) diamond flat area AND, a new jig to fully utilize this flat area. I am excited!
European manufacturers traditionally introduce new products during the Spring Fair in Cologne, Germany. (This was where the 35mm Leica camera was introduced in 1925.) I have been expecting Tormek to follow its tradition of new innovations to be announced in Cologne. Having recently introduced the T4, T8 and T2, I expected the innovation to be more oriented toward jigs and accessories. Just as many of the upgrades in the T8 began with the major redesign of the T3 into the T4, I have thought the diamond wheels of the T2 were the harbinger of things to come with diamond wheels. These three new diamond grinding wheels have certainly far exceeded my expectations and hopes.
One of the things I truly admire about Tormek's loyalty to its customers is its philosophy of non obsolescense. These three new diamond wheels and jig are totally usable on every 250mm model Tormek. There is no need to replace a venerable SuperGrind to utilize the latest technology. I call that customer care.
Tormek has truly outdone itself this year. They have made a world class machine markedly better. I will also note that even with all of these exciting new accessories, the basic Tormek with the SG 200 or 250 grinding wheel remains a premiere grinding system. The range of grits available with the included stone grader remains almost as extensive as the three diamond wheels. The SG wheel will serve Tormek users of the future as well as ever. If I was not a Tormek junkie, the Tormek of either diameter with an SG would more than satisfy all of my sharpening needs. However, my inner Tormek junkie looks forward to pushing back the frontier with the four latest additions to the Tormek line.
Well done, Sweden.
Ken
More thoughts....
As an old Tormeker, I have become spoiled by Tormek's water cooled, dust and spark free working environment. When I started doing my CBN testing, I wanted to test them both wet and dry. I consulted two manufacturers. One flat out told me CBN wheels do not work with water. His company later announced that using water with their wheels would void the warranty. The second manufacturer told me his wheels work wet or dry, although he uses them dry on a high speed grinder. They do work well wet, however, the steel reducing bushings and balancing hole areas will quickly rust unless a rust inhibitor like Honerite Gold is added to the water. This is not a game changer, however, it does add slightly to the cost and set up procedure.
Some notable expert users seem to be happy to dispense with the water trough. I lean toward the water preferences stated by Glenn Lucas and Nick Agar in the recommendations. I like the clean environment provided by water. Used dry, there is little heat problem with the Tormek. Used wet there is no heat problem, and the lubrication of the water may actually produce a finer finish. With no wheel debris and a magnet to capture the steel particles, the water trough should stay very clean. This is a nice pairing with the lowerable water trough of the T8.
Stig has informed me that the new diamond wheels include a bottle of rust preventative additive.
The found connecting surface on the new multi angle jig looks like it is based on the much improved jig setting surfaces of the SVD-186. I consider this the most outstanding improvement of the SVD-186.
No doubt more information will come to light as this jig and three wheels become available in June. We are witnessing a major step forward in the ongoing evolution of the Tormek.
Ken
Does anyone have an idea as to what these new diamond wheels might sell for? I'm assuming they are not yet available to the retail market as I can't find them listed with any Canadian retailers. Nor could I find this information in the email / website I received from Tormek this morning.
Just curious. Thanks. Soared up to minus 15 yesterday in Whitehorse. Damn near tropical. RR
Quote from: SHARPCO on March 04, 2018, 10:30:48 AM
https://www.tormek.com/international/en/about-tormek/news-archive/new-diamond-wheels-and-multi-base/
I hope to be able to sharpen concave blades(e.g. karambit) using the edge of the wheel.
For recurves (concave blades), a wheel you can round the edges on would be a better choice. From the pics/video of the new diamond wheel, it looks like a pretty sharp corner, which is what you want for many things, but not necessarily recurves.
I think if you bought and dedicated a standard wheel for recurves, with nice rounded edges, you'd get better results, (and I'm bettting a cheaper solution).
New diamond wheels look nice though... and I'm really interested in the "Multi-Base"... I already see an "outside the box" use for it. ;)
I have seen concave sharpening stones designed to directly sharpen cambered plane blades. Why not a convex grinding wheel designed to sharpen concave knive shapes? (An almost worn out SG-250 might be an excellent candidate?)
Ken
Hello From France,
Today I received Tormek's pre announcement of New Diamond Wheels.
Surprisingly I am frustrated by the fact that they seem to be in 250 mm diameter only. So unusable by T4's owners.
The second frustration is that the French email is very bad translated with various "gender " problems. A "Wheel" in French is Female. So you can guest how many time this word was repeated in the message !
As support, I can help Tormek's Communication team to translate, in French if needed.
Ken, do you have some backdoor information about 200 mm Diamond Wheels ?
Or an Upgrade program for T4's to T8 ?
Have a nice week end.
Quote from: Ken S on March 04, 2018, 05:55:56 PM
I have seen concave sharpening stones designed to directly sharpen cambered plane blades. Why not a convex grinding wheel designed to sharpen concave knive shapes? (An almost worn out SG-250 might be an excellent candidate?)
Ken
Yup. My thoughts too.
There is "radius edge" CBN (and maybe diamond?) wheel already available... that fit the Tormek... and would probably do the trick also... but a profiled SG wheel, should work as well.
My thought would be related to volume. For frequent use professionally, I would look into an alternative. For the very occasional concave knife, I would repurpose an almost worn out SG-250 worn to perhaps 200mm.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 04, 2018, 08:47:32 PM
My thought would be related to volume. For frequent use professionally, I would look into an alternative. For the very occasional concave knife, I would repurpose an almost worn out SG-250 worn to perhaps 200mm.
Ken
I agree, but I would caution against using a wheel worn too small. One thing you need to do when sharpening recurves, is raise and lower the handle as you move thru the curve. If the wheel is too small, the handle might end up hitting the casing.
Don't have one to test... but it's something to consider.
Rem - The announcement says the diamond wheels will go on sale in June.
Tournevis - Ken found a Tormek retailer in the US that sold the diamond wheels for the T-2 as spare parts, and the wheels are a perfect fit on the T-4. I don't know if the T-2 wheels have the flat sides with diamonds. Perhaps a retailer in the EU also has the T-2 wheels.
Ken - I think the course diamond wheel is 360 grit, not 220.
Mike
Quote from: AKMike on March 04, 2018, 10:12:05 PM
Tournevis - Ken found a Tormek retailer in the US that sold the diamond wheels for the T-2 as spare parts, and the wheels are a perfect fit on the T-4. I don't know if the T-2 wheels have the flat sides with diamonds. Perhaps a retailer in the EU also has the T-2 wheels.
Mike
Perhaps I am wrong but it seems that T2 diamond wheel do not have flat sides with diamonds, Multi base neither.
Regards
Quote from: Tournevis on March 04, 2018, 11:15:57 PM
Quote from: AKMike on March 04, 2018, 10:12:05 PM
Tournevis - Ken found a Tormek retailer in the US that sold the diamond wheels for the T-2 as spare parts, and the wheels are a perfect fit on the T-4. I don't know if the T-2 wheels have the flat sides with diamonds. Perhaps a retailer in the EU also has the T-2 wheels.
Mike
Perhaps I am wrong but it seems that T2 diamond wheel do not have flat sides with diamonds, Multi base neither.
Regards
You're correct, the T-2 Diamond Wheel does not have diamonds on the side.
The "Multi-Base" should work on the T-4... (if you found a stone that worked).
A bit more info....
If you go to Tormek's Instagram feed... they're answering questions over there...
Q: Will the diamond wheels be available for the T4 in the future?
A: At the moment it's only available for the T-8 and previous Tormek models with a 250mm wheel diameter. That's what we can say for now.
Q: Any idea on price yet?
A: The exact price will be released when the products out on the market in June. But we can say it will be similar to the SJ-250 Japanese Waterstone.
I have started several replies today, only to have them interrupted. I will try to post re. diamond wheels and the T4 tomorrow.
Ken
Glad this came out now ! My SB wheel is getting ready for replacement, & I'll probably opt for diamond wheel(s). Maybe a course & a fine ...
How long is the life of a diamond wheel ? Wonder how the cost per sharpening compares to the SB & SG stones ...
My quiet very early morning quiet time. Several related questions:
Mike, you are correct. As I recall, the DWC-200 coarse wheel for the T2and T4 is 360 grit and the DWC-250 wheel for the T7/8 is 360 grit. I find that the DWC-200, being diamond, actually cuts more aggressively than the 220 grit SG. Frankly, I would not get hung up on grit numbers. I find the DWC-200 a nice balance between fast cutting and smooth finish. All of the diamond wheels should be available from any Tormek dealer, although probably by special order.
Tournevis, I agree, it would be nice to have wheels with full side coverage for the T4. Having used both sizes, I think the T4 is a better machine than Tormek realizes. It comes from the heritage of the T1200 and the T3. These were designed more for the amateur, hobbiest market. With the redesigned machined zinc top, Tormek corrected the overheating problem which plagued earlier models. The zinc top for the T4 has served as the prototype for the flagship T8. The T4 really is a heavy duty machine, however, it still has the undeserved stigma as being the less expensive amateur model. Notice that Tormek does not make the SB blackstone in the 200mm size. The SB works best with lighter grinding pressure. I see no reason why it would not work very well with the T4.
Although the two diamond wheels are perfectly compatible (and more versatile) with the T4, they were originally designed for the T2.
Do not despair about a lack of grinding wheels for the T4. I presently have six grinding wheels for my T4, with grits ranging from 46 to the SG-200 graded fine. I could have more; the constraint is not selection, it is my wallet. The T4 with a 46 grit Norton 3X wheel or an 80 or 180 grit CBN wheel is formidable!
Jeff Farris posted about shaping his SG with a radius on the inside face. For those of you wanting a round profile for sharpening concave knives, this might be an inexpensive, workable plan. I do not think such a radius would interfere with the normal uses of the SG and could be used even at full size. If the radius proved not to be of any benefit, it would soon be worn down. I would think an inexpensive diamond T dresser would form such a radius quickly.
I would urge all of us to be patient with Tormek's diamond wheels. Tormek works deliberately and carefully. The T4 was an opportunity to work with a precision machined zinc top. This technology was later used with the T8 and T2, as well as several redesigned jigs. The T4 also served as the basis for the T2. The T2 was Tormek's first application of diamond wheels. This was a radical departure for Tormek. Originally, the T2 was only marketed in Sweden, a much more controlled environment for Tormek.
With no inside information, I believe these three new diamond wheels will become a major part of the future for Tormek. We will always have the home workshop user wanting to keep his woodworking, turning, carving and cutlery tools sharp. For these users, the relatively inexpensive SG wheels are ideal.
We are entering an era where the more production sharpener, be it for knives, turning tools, drill bits or planar blades, requires the faster production time of not having to dress the grinding wheel or grade the wheel. These new diamond wheels allow that user to maintain the control of the Tormek with the latest grinding wheels. The press release mentions grinding carbide. I am awaiting word as to how much carbide grinding is proven with the new wheels.
As the new diamond wheels become quickly accepted, I hope Tormek will eventually introduce the full line in 200mm diameter.
CB, you and I are thinking alike. Like you, before I even completed reading the announcement, I was thinking of other uses for the multi base. This is a big step forward for a long thinking process. I have posted an idea or two using the usb and platform jig in different configurations. The multi base will expand those options.
Incidentally, the SG-200 presently sells for $109 US. The DWC-200 sells for $234. I suspect that a price comparable to the SJ-250 for the new larger diamond wheels is a good guess. (They will be available in June.) Posts from several heavy users indicate that the SB wheels last longer than the standard SG wheels. Tormek uses the wording "exceptional durability" in describing its diamond wheels. For a heavy user, I suspect that exceptional durability means lower cost per sharpening due to longer life and no time lost to dressing the wheel. I think "forever" is hopeful hype promoted by enthusiastic marketing departments. For most of us, I think exceptional durability means that our heirs will enjoy the same diamond wheels we purchase. I have no product complaints with that.
Mentioned, but not yet explained, is a modified WM-200 Anglemaster for the new multi base.
This is an interesting year for Tormek and Tormek users.
Ken
EDITED TO CORRECT DWC GRIT TO 360
Quote from: Ken S on March 05, 2018, 12:05:57 PM
...
Mike, you are correct. As I recall, the DWC-200 coarse wheel for the T2and T4 is 325 grit and the DWC-250 wheel for the T7/8 is 360 grit. I find that the DWC-200, being diamond, actually cuts more aggressively than the 220 grit SG. Frankly, I would not get hung up on grit numbers. I find the DWC-200 a nice balance between fast cutting and smooth finish. All of the diamond wheels should be available from any Tormek dealer, although probably by special order.
...
Seems a bit odd that the coarse rated stones would be two different grits... ??? You are right that diamonds typically are more aggressive than their equivalent grit rating with other stones... numbers don't tell the entire story.
Quote from: Ken S on March 05, 2018, 12:05:57 PM
...
Mentioned, but not yet explained, is a modified WM-200 Anglemaster for the new multi base.
...
My impression from reading is, it's the same AngleMaster, with an additional set of numbers printed on it for the Multi-Base (since it says you can use the old AM by "adding 18° to the desired angle").
Quote from: RichColvin on March 05, 2018, 04:01:30 AM
How long is the life of a diamond wheel ? Wonder how the cost per sharpening compares to the SB & SG stones ...
The only thing I can find from Tormek (on Facebook) was this...
Quote from: TormekIt's hard to say exactly what the lifetime is, the Diamonds offer an exceptional durability, meaning the wheel will last for a long time of sharpening. But it's sensitive for high pressure so therefore it's important to always sharpen with low pressure. Glenn Lucas Woodturning have used it for almost one year in his workshop and he's very satisfied.
BTW, on the question of... Will it be available for the T-4, at least Tormek's answer is... only the T-8
for now... as opposed to their answer for the SB stone being available for the T-4 which was.... no. :-\ (Maybe a glimmer of hope there...).
CB,
I was mistaken on the grit number; the correct number for both sizes is 360. Whatever the exact nmber, I think it cuts faster than the SG graded coarse.
We will all have to relearn our grinding pressure habits from the SG. The SB works better with low pressure, also.
I hope your hunch is correct about diamond wheels for the T4 in the future.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 05, 2018, 04:11:25 PM
CB,
I was mistaken on the grit number; the correct number for both sizes is 360. Whatever the exact nmber, I think it cuts faster than the SG graded coarse.
....
Ken
At 4 in the a.m.... who can blame you? ;)
What's scary is that according to the forum advanced stats on me, I have posted during all twenty four hour periods of the day.........I need a life. :-\
Ken
Quote from: AKMike on March 04, 2018, 10:12:05 PM
Rem - The announcement says the diamond wheels will go on sale in June.
[/quote
DUH. !!! Thanks, Mike. I'm a dufus. R
A few diamond wheel pictures I "stole" from Tormek's Instagram feed...
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3540.0;attach=2231)
8)
(Edited to fix the picture).