Currently doing a bit of tinkering, as in making my own version of Herman Trivilino's knife rest (using a cut-off piece of Torlock and 2 scrap pieces of aluminium), plus testing an MDF wheel with 1.0 micron diamond paste.
I'm already a bit further with the knife rest (ground in the hollow part on the SB-250 stone and put plastic tape on top to avoid scratching knife blades), and the first cheap knives i did came out quite well.
Probably going to replace the aluminium pieces with one piece of more rigid steel, but for now it seems to do the job.
(https://s18.postimg.cc/8tc1zmydh/GEDC1593.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8tc1zmydh/)
The MDF Wheel is a testbed to find out what it can do exactly and how well.
I have been using MDF benchstrops with diamond compounds succesfully for quite some time now, and it was time to see if a motorized version would also work.
So far i found that it indeed works very well for removing burrs on harder & more wear resistant steel types (think S30V, ZDP-189, etc), as well as touching up existing edges on the same steels.
On softer steel types the leather wheel works noticeably better.
Also experimenting with various slots in the surface, both to trap steel debris as well as to find out if the direction of the slots has any influence in burr removal.
Will make a few more of these wheels in the future.
Quote from: kwakster on January 27, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
Currently doing a bit of tinkering, as in making my own version of Herman Trivilino's knife rest (using a cut-off piece of Torlock and 2 scrap pieces of aluminium), plus testing an MDF wheel with 1.0 micron diamond paste.
I'm already a bit further with the knife rest (ground in the hollow part on the SB-250 stone and put plastic tape on top to avoid scratching knife blades), and the first cheap knives i did came out quite well.
Probably going to replace the aluminium pieces with one piece of more rigid steel, but for now it seems to do the job.
The MDF Wheel is a testbed to find out what it can do exactly and how well.
I have been using MDF benchstrops with diamond compounds succesfully for quite some time now, and it was time to see if a motorized version would also work.
So far i found that it indeed works very well for removing burrs on harder & more wear resistant steel types (think S30V, ZDP-189, etc), as well as touching up existing edges on the same steels.
On softer steel types the leather wheel works noticeably better.
Also experimenting with various slots in the surface, both to trap steel debris as well as to find out if the direction of the slots has any influence in burr removal.
Will make a few more of these wheels in the future.
Cool. 8) Love to see a post with the word "Tinkering" in the title... ;)
I would think the aluminum (vs. steel) knife rest would be more than adequate... since it's mostly just a guide.
I thought you did your work on a bench grinder with paper wheels with various compounds... not by hand on benchstrops?
Some interesting ideas you have going on here. Never thought about using angled slots in different ways to see the results.
On your comparison of hard steels vs. softer steels on MDF vs. leather... is that using the same compound?
Thanks for posting. Nice idea! Please post your additional results! :)
At this point i'm not yet convinced that this aluminium scrap material is the right choice for the knife rest, as it seems to exhibit some flex in the hollow part.
I think the surface needs some more rigidity, but i intend to find out with practicing.
I do indeed use my slower speed bench grinder with various Wheels quite a lot, but my trusted T7 fitted with an SB-250 stone is my choice for repairing broken points, hollowed out edges, bent bevels as well as establishing initial edge grinds on heavily used knives.
For intermediate work i use 2 Rubber Wheels coated with diamond powders, and for finer work as well as deburring i use various Paper Wheels coated with fine diamond compounds.
I have been using MDF benchstrops (as well as leather and hard cardboard) for quite some time now, and i also give them to certain customers sometimes.
They work more aggressively than either leather or cardboard using the same compound, and function well for both deburring and touching-up of various high carbide volume steel types, based on my own use as well as customer feedback.
On the Tormek leather wheel i've experimented with both the original Tormek paste (friable mix of 3.0 to 1.0 micron aluminium oxide in oil) as well as 1.0 micron diamond compound (non-friable mono-diamond in a mixture of oil and clay) made by 3M
On the MDF wheel so far i have only experimented with the same 1.0 micron mono-diamond compound, while on various handstrops (MDF, cardboard, and leather i've experimented with 0.25 micron, 1.0 micron, 3.0 micron, 6.0 micron, and 15 micron mono diamond compounds.
Thanks for the reply.
(Probably worth mentioning for those who aren't aware of your work... that you sharpen at a very high level of finish/results). 8)
(Use this as an excuse to post some pictures)... ;)
Having made two platforms using the Torlock platform, I would recommend using the platform of the scissors jig like Herman did. I think the lower center of gravity works better. Also, as Herman has stated, the platform can also be used as originally intended for scissors just by removing the added part.
Ken
@Ken: maybe i will try to make Herman's knife rest in a later stadium to find out how that would work, but what i like on the one i have now is the freedom of hand movement it allows me on both sides.
With Herman's original version it looks to me like your left hand holding the knife handle could be obstructed somewhat by the rest of the scissor jig that sticks out on that side.
What is your experience regarding that aspect ?
@cwbx34: thanks for the kind words, but most of my pics show edges finished on modified Rubber and/or modified Paper Wheels.
I don't think i have any pics of knife edges done solely on a Tormek.
Quote from: kwakster on January 27, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
...
(https://s18.postimg.org/8tc1zmydh/GEDC1593.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8tc1zmydh/)
The MDF Wheel is a testbed to find out what it can do exactly and how well.
I have been using MDF benchstrops with diamond compounds succesfully for quite some time now, and it was time to see if a motorized version would also work.
So far i found that it indeed works very well for removing burrs on harder & more wear resistant steel types (think S30V, ZDP-189, etc), as well as touching up existing edges on the same steels.
On softer steel types the leather wheel works noticeably better.
Also experimenting with various slots in the surface, both to trap steel debris as well as to find out if the direction of the slots has any influence in burr removal.
Will make a few more of these wheels in the future.
Hi KWAKSTER,
The image of the slots in the MDF surface went lost.
I'd appreciate if you could repost it please, I want to have a closer look. Supposedly the slots should be advantageous for deburring, how do you find them?
Thank you
-------------------
UPDATE:
Thanks to Curtis' help, the image has been recovered:
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/Tormek_patterned.jpg)
Quote from: kwakster on January 30, 2018, 05:42:10 PM
@Ken: maybe i will try to make Herman's knife rest in a later stadium to find out how that would work, but what i like on the one i have now is the freedom of hand movement it allows me on both sides.
With Herman's original version it looks to me like your left hand holding the knife handle could be obstructed somewhat by the rest of the scissor jig that sticks out on that side.
What is your experience regarding that aspect ?
@cwbx34: thanks for the kind words, but most of my pics show edges finished on modified Rubber and/or modified Paper Wheels.
I don't think i have any pics of knife edges done solely on a Tormek.
I think the constraint we have with adapting either the scissorsjig or Torlock platform is trying to keep them dual purpose. I made my two small platforms by cutting a Torlock platform into two pieces. I think having a spare platform, available as a spare part, for the scissors jig would made a more usable knife platform. The extra platform could be cut to size without the constraint of returning to a scissors jig.
As far as freedom of hand movement, the little knife jig with the T2 has a lot of possibilities.
I also noticed in the handbook a description of removing part of the Torlock platform to work with scrapers which are too short to work with the full Torlock.
Ken
Kwakster,
This forum seems to be a home for tinkers (or is it tinkerers?). While the Tormek gear seems well suited for most work, there are many areas where the jigs or accessories are on the less than ideal portion of the parabola. ¡Viva tinkers!
Keep us posted about the MDF. I will do the same with my hard felt testing.
Ken
Quote from: kwakster on January 30, 2018, 05:42:10 PM
With Herman's original version it looks to me like your left hand holding the knife handle could be obstructed somewhat by the rest of the scissor jig that sticks out on that side.
This is the reason I made the platform thicker on later versions. It's about 0.5 inches (12 mm) thick. This will also help with the rigidity issue.
Replies to Kwakster and Herman:
Kwakster,
Your use of MDF mounted on the leather honing wheel is clever. Aa alternative plan might be to use an MDF wheel instead of the leather honing wheel. It wiuld fit directly on the shaft and be oriented by three mounting pins, just like the leather honing wheel. The disk would be secured with the standard Tormek "quick change connection" (the original name for the then optional, now standard T7/8 dry side lock nut). The idea would be to make an accurate jig to replicate numerous times with different disks. Once the original was perfected, the disks could be batch made for wear replacement, different nicron dize compounds, etc.
Herman,
The small platform idea has really blossomed. I used to say that every well equipped Tormek sharpener should have one of your platforms. Since the range of desired use has expanded, I am now thinking that more than one might be in order. The original concept of a platform for very small blades might not be the optimal size for machetes. I think the scissors jig you use is the optimal, general purpose base. The T2 knife jig might fit smaller applications better, as would Kwakster's design. This concept gets increasingly interesting.
A smaller platform jig would allow a smaller, thinner platform. Would that be an advantage? I'm not sure....
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on May 27, 2018, 10:32:08 PM
...
Your use of MDF mounted on the leather honing wheel is clever. Aa alternative plan might be to use an MDF wheel instead of the leather honing wheel. It wiuld fit directly on the shaft and be oriented by three mounting pins, just like the leather honing wheel. The disk would be secured with the standard Tormek "quick change connection" (the original name for the then optional, now standard T7/8 dry side lock nut). The idea would be to make an accurate jig to replicate numerous times with different disks. Once the original was perfected, the disks could be batch made for wear replacement, different nicron dize compounds, etc.
...
I don't think it would be quite this simple... since the leather wheel is concave and fits over the drive wheel, but the Paper Wheel wouldn't, so the shaft isn't long enough. (Maybe on the T-4....).
You could adapt the shaft extension from the LA-120 to hold the Paper Wheel, as an option.
I agree. This would not be simple. However, I do think it is doable and maybe even practical.
Ken
Here it is with a shaft from the LA-120 (https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/products/1240-shaft)...
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3509.0;attach=2211)
...I just used a couple of rounds of masking tape to take up the slack on the shaft, and extra washers to get it to fit. Tried it on a couple of knives, it worked better than I anticipated. (I think the paper wheels work best at a higher speed, but this worked pretty well).
8)
Well done, CB!
Ken
I can't find where I read it earlier today, however, I remember reading a reply which stated that paper wheels work better at higher speeds (3450 rpm; 1725 would not be fast enough.) I found out that the paper wheels need the high speed to generate enough heat to melt the wax. I believe the wax binds the abrasive together on the abrasive wheel. I do not know if there is any other reason to run the wheels fast. If not, diamond paste with a Tormek might also work.
Would this be an improvement over the leather honing wheel? I don't know. I post this only to bring the wax melting into the duscussion.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on May 30, 2018, 08:22:21 PM
I can't find where I read it earlier today, however, I remember reading a reply which stated that paper wheels work better at higher speeds (3450 rpm; 1725 would not be fast enough.) I found out that the paper wheels need the high speed to generate enough heat to melt the wax. I believe the wax binds the abrasive together on the abrasive wheel. I do not know if there is any other reason to run the wheels fast. If not, diamond paste with a Tormek might also work.
Would this be an improvement over the leather honing wheel? I don't know. I post this only to bring the wax melting into the duscussion.
Ken
You're right... the wax is on the abrasive wheel, and it does need a higher speed to make it work properly. (One company makes a wax if you want to run it slower... but I think it was by "special request"). It doesn't really bind the abrasive together that I know of... it's advertised purpose is to run a bit cooler, (and not as aggressive). It doesn't apply to the honing wheel though.
The other thing is how true it runs... on a high speed grinder, they run pretty true (I know it's not entirely correct, but I'm sure you get the idea). On the Tormek mod I did yesterday, it "wobbles" noticeably... and while I could true it a little, it would be hard to do if you really wanted it smooth. (But at the low speed, it doesn't really matter a whole lot).
I only did a couple of knives... they came out great. I think they're "more forgiving" than the leather wheel... but I'm sure part is operator efficiency, results you want, etc.... and it might take one of them "string cutting thingies" you have to find out. ;)
Quote from: wootz on May 20, 2018, 11:25:08 PM
Quote from: kwakster on January 27, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
...
(https://s18.postimg.org/8tc1zmydh/GEDC1593.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8tc1zmydh/)
The MDF Wheel is a testbed to find out what it can do exactly and how well.
I have been using MDF benchstrops with diamond compounds succesfully for quite some time now, and it was time to see if a motorized version would also work.
So far i found that it indeed works very well for removing burrs on harder & more wear resistant steel types (think S30V, ZDP-189, etc), as well as touching up existing edges on the same steels.
On softer steel types the leather wheel works noticeably better.
Also experimenting with various slots in the surface, both to trap steel debris as well as to find out if the direction of the slots has any influence in burr removal.
Will make a few more of these wheels in the future.
Hi KWAKSTER,
The image of the slots in the MDF surface went lost.
I'd appreciate if you could repost it please, I want to have a closer look. Supposedly the slots should be advantageous for deburring, how do you find them?
Thank you
-------------------
UPDATE:
Thanks to Curtis' help, the image has been recovered:
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/Tormek_patterned.jpg)
Here is my alternative, still in prototype stage:
(//)
Sorry. I am having dufficulty posting the other three photos. My set up uses a 8x1" hard felt wheel. I debated between hard felt and rock hard felt. These wheels are also available in 10" diameter.
Rick made me a really nice reducing bushing and two bushings for my felt wheel. The set up works with either the T 4 or T7/8.
I have not had a chance to work enough with this to know if it will do anything the leather honing wheel or not. I will keep you posted.
My reason for posting this is to show that there are multiple paths to honing.
Ken
Interesting alt. for the leather wheel. But if you already on a material that is not restricted by the form like leather why not trying to give an angle so the knife handle will be free from touching the stone?
Also I was playing with the thoughts of making a angled USB and accordingly true the stone. I was thinking of 10dgrs.
Wolfy,
I realize the photo and brief description may not explain it well, however, in my version the felt wheel replaces the grinding wheel. It does not touch the grinding wheel because it is placed on the shaft where the grinding wheel would normally be located.
Incidentally, the tapered rubber honing wheel for the T2 is an exact fit and works just as well with the T4, as do the two diamond wheels from the T2.
Ken
Quote from: WolfY on June 02, 2018, 01:17:15 PM
Interesting alt. for the leather wheel. But if you already on a material that is not restricted by the form like leather why not trying to give an angle so the knife handle will be free from touching the stone?
Also I was playing with the thoughts of making a angled USB and accordingly true the stone. I was thinking of 10dgrs.
I was going to mention the T-2 honing wheel, just so I could say... you are prohibited from any other projects, until I'm seeing a
self-centering knife jig. ;)
Did some measurements today. Will make a USB with 5dgrs angle and true the stone accordingly. I wonder how it will feel to sharpen in an angle and not symmetrically for both sides (motion wise).
As for T-2 parts. I will get some T-2's next shipment and will be able to test and try. Still don't like the Magnet behind the knife and that the knife is absorbing the metal particles from the sharpening. Would rather use the SG/SB stones with water.
All my projects are not instead of the Self centering Jig, cause they are less dependent on others help.
Ken, I thought that u experimented with felt wheel instead of the leather. Got it now.
Quote from: WolfY on June 02, 2018, 10:50:34 PM
Did some measurements today. Will make a USB with 5dgrs angle and true the stone accordingly. I wonder how it will feel to sharpen in an angle and not symmetrically for both sides (motion wise).
As for T-2 parts. I will get some T-2's next shipment and will be able to test and try. Still don't like the Magnet behind the knife and that the knife is absorbing the metal particles from the sharpening. Would rather use the SG/SB stones with water.
All my projects are not instead of the Self centering Jig, cause they are less dependent on others help.
Ken, I thought that u experimented with felt wheel instead of the leather. Got it now.
You could always prop your machine up on one side... that might give you an idea of what it would feel like? I think your idea would be a first.
I didn't notice an issue with the magnet on the T-2 like you describe, (but I also wasn't looking for it). It's not a strong magnet, FWIW.
Just kidding about the other projects...
(honest I am). ;)
CB,
Did some knife sharpening with tilted machine after the post :)
Looked little strange but felt OK as I look primarily on the water/ knife contact with the wheel.
Another benefit is that the water drips out of the machine and not on or towards the leather wheel. It is also good if you take of the leather wheel for handle clearance.
I got a good feeling about it. Will make a 5dgrs tilted USB a.s.a.p.
Don't worry about pushing me with the project. I will always have some projects on my head. Not only in our field.