Hi,
I was wondering what the best practice is when using the Japanese waterstone (SJ-200). Do I use the stone rotating towards the knife or away from it? I have tried both and can't seem to figure out, which works best. However I have experienced the knife blade "catching" on the stone when rotating towards the knife, which left a very nasty cut mark on the stone, which I had to remove with the truing tool. How do you guys use the stone?
Quote from: DonWerner on January 02, 2018, 04:28:33 PM
Hi,
I was wondering what the best practice is when using the Japanese waterstone (SJ-200). Do I use the stone rotating towards the knife or away from it? I have tried both and can't seem to figure out, which works best. However I have experienced the knife blade "catching" on the stone when rotating towards the knife, which left a very nasty cut mark on the stone, which I had to remove with the truing tool. How do you guys use the stone?
Welcome to the forum.
I use mine both directions... rotating towards the knife will typically leave a better edge. But I use mine mainly just to clean up the edge... I don't use it to polish. You should get a decent edge either direction... one trick is to finish with a couple of light (pressure), alternating passes, at a higher angle, to insure burr removal, and a clean edge.
Not sure about the stone "catching"... did it do it at the edge of the stone? I put a slight bevel on the edge of the stone... similar to what is done on a flat waterstone, to keep it from chipping, etc. You can slightly cant a knife to reach all the way to a bolster, etc. if needed. As hard as the stone is... I suspect there might have been a slight anomaly that you didn't notice that caused it to catch? My guess anyway.
Hope that helps! :)
Welcome to the forum, Don. You don't say whether you are using the knife jig or sharpening free hand.
Ken
I mostly use the knife-jig, but I also go freehand from time to time. The one incident where the knife caught the stone and left a nasty mark was when I was using the knife-jig. It was towards the edge of the stone it happened. I think the knife was at a too steep of an angle and that is probably why it happened.
Another thing I was wondering, when you sharpen a knife, do you take from grit 250 every time or only when you need to reprofile? I am new to knife sharpening, so I am still learning and trying to figure out best practice.
Quote from: DonWerner on January 02, 2018, 08:09:18 PM
I mostly use the knife-jig, but I also go freehand from time to time. The one incident where the knife caught the stone and left a nasty mark was when I was using the knife-jig. It was towards the edge of the stone it happened. I think the knife was at a too steep of an angle and that is probably why it happened.
...
Kinda what I figured... that it was the edge. As for the angle... if you're familiar with using a Sharpie to check where you're removing metal, don't hesitate to remark the bevel when changing stones... just to insure you're keeping everything consistent. Even if you're using the AngleMaster, or some other method... the Sharpie will quickly tell you that everything is OK. Also, again, you may want to slightly bevel the edges of the wheel... you can do that with the fine side of the stone grader (I just hold it against the edge for a few seconds).
Quote from: DonWerner on January 02, 2018, 08:09:18 PM
...
Another thing I was wondering, when you sharpen a knife, do you take from grit 250 every time or only when you need to reprofile? I am new to knife sharpening, so I am still learning and trying to figure out best practice.
Grit/Abrasive level is something you can experiment with, but in general, 220g is for repairs/reprofiles... 1000g is for sharpening. But, you can, for example, leave it at 220g if you want a "toothier" edge, or, some leave it in the stone's "natural" state, where they don't use the stone grader at all, which leaves the stone somewhere in between 220g - 1000g. If you're seeking a more polished edge, than grade it 1000g prior to the leather wheel or SJ wheel for better results.... (so, the short answer... 220g for reprofiles/repairs, 1000g for sharpening... at least when starting out). ;)
Thanks for the reply - very useful!
I haven't quite figured out the Tormek yet though. I also have the Lansky system with diamond stones and with that system I can get razor sharp results, but I am finding it a bit more difficult on the Tormek for some reason.
I use the sharpie method. I don't find the anglemaster very useful on smaller folding knives, which is mostly what I sharpen. Also, I have run into a problem when sharpening my Global kitchen knives, which have a very narrow small edge. I can't really use the sharpie method, since the edge is very shallow. There's really no room for the sharpie to leave a mark. Any advice?
Learning how to sharpen is really a process. :-)
Quote from: DonWerner on January 03, 2018, 08:35:41 AM
Thanks for the reply - very useful!
I haven't quite figured out the Tormek yet though. I also have the Lansky system with diamond stones and with that system I can get razor sharp results, but I am finding it a bit more difficult on the Tormek for some reason.
I use the sharpie method. I don't find the anglemaster very useful on smaller folding knives, which is mostly what I sharpen. Also, I have run into a problem when sharpening my Global kitchen knives, which have a very narrow small edge. I can't really use the sharpie method, since the edge is very shallow. There's really no room for the sharpie to leave a mark. Any advice?
Learning how to sharpen is really a process. :-)
My .02... the Tormek does take a bit of getting used to... mainly because, unlike most other sharpening methods, the position on the wheel also changes the angle... so you have an additional factor to deal with, that isn't a factor in other sharpening methods. Once I got used to that... it makes sharpening a lot easier, and better results. (Might be the same reason you're finding it more difficult).
I think the Sharpie always helps... if you can't see it, you might look into some of the pocket magnifiers... they're inexpensive and can be a big help in seeing what is going on... especially with small bevels. (Small bevels might also mean the knives could use a little reprofiling... so you might want to check the angle and get an idea where they're at?) You can also "overmark" the edge with a thicker/wider mark, so you can see what's going on... isopropyl alcohol will clean off the excess Sharpie when done.
I also suggest that you use the knife jig when starting out... it makes it easier to see the various "factors" involved in sharpening on the Tormek, and helps eliminate the "location on the wheel changing the angle" issue. Once you get consistent results, then you can add freehand sharpening to the mix. (If you have a knife that the jig won't work with... I'd set it aside for now).
There's also other options available if knives are the main thing you're sharpening, for example Herman Trivilino's Homemade Knife Rest (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1592.msg6634#msg6634) might interest you.
Hope that helps! :)
It centainly helps alot, thanks mate. I will try with a small pocket magnifier, never thought of that. :-)
Don,
I had the same problem you are having with setting the angle with knife bevels. The bevel area is just too small, in my opinion, to work well with the Anglemaster. I also think the bevel is smallish for the black marker. I devised two workarounds. Using Dutchman's grinding angle tables (Do a member search for Dutchman and then check his posts, you will find it. I suggest printing the booklet.), I started the kenjig. From the kenjig idea the idea of a substitute target developed. (Do forum searches for substitute target and kenjig. You will find this information.)
The substitute target measures the Projection from the end stop of the knife jig (which abutts the support bar) to the edge of the knife blade. A piece of metal or a couple thicknesses of plastic gift card are substituted on the jig for the knife, and set for the same Projection. This creates a large flat surface for the Anglemaster.
Your post inspired me to do something I have been thinking about for a while. I created a second forum identity, ken s2. I will only post links to posts I need to find frequently, perhaps only a dozen. Finding posts on my regular identity, with more than 4200 posts is impossible. If ken s2 only has a very few posts should be an easy member, then post search. I hope this will help.
Ken
Hey Ken,
Thanks for your reply. I have looked at the Kenjig and it looks like a very useful jig. However most of my folding knives are not 30 degrees, mainly 20 and 25. Should I make a seperate jig for those then or just reprofile them to 30 degrees?
I also had a brief look at the Dutchman booklet, but it looks sorta complicated, so I 'm not sure how helpful it will be for me. :-)
Welcome to the forum Don. I understand Dutchman's tables looking complicated. I just kind of passed over them on the first reading. Sometime later I read them again and thought they were not as complicated as I realized he has already done the math computations. It should not be much of a problem to make different Kenjigs for different desired angles. Also one could get Wootz's program if money is not an issue.
Quote from: Ken S on January 03, 2018, 05:07:59 PM
Don,
I had the same problem you are having with setting the angle with knife bevels. The bevel area is just too small, in my opinion, to work well with the Anglemaster. I also think the bevel is smallish for the black marker. I devised two workarounds. Using Dutchman's grinding angle tables (Do a member search for Dutchman and then check his posts, you will find it. I suggest printing the booklet.), I started the kenjig. From the kenjig idea the idea of a substitute target developed. (Do forum searches for substitute target and kenjig. You will find this information.)
The substitute target measures the Projection from the end stop of the knife jig (which abutts the support bar) to the edge of the knife blade. A piece of metal or a couple thicknesses of plastic gift card are substituted on the jig for the knife, and set for the same Projection. This creates a large flat surface for the Anglemaster.
...
Well... hopefully noone is trying to measure the actual bevel on the knife... but is measuring the angle from the side of the knife as shown in the manual... ??? Of course, you then have to adjust for the knife grind angle... not a big deal on many kitchen knives, but can be several degrees on a smaller pocket/EDC knife. The "substitute target" actually compensates for this... you just have to insure that the "target" sticks out the same distance as the knife you want to sharpen.
Quote from: Elden on January 03, 2018, 08:24:16 PM
Welcome to the forum Don. I understand Dutchman's tables looking complicated. I just kind of passed over them on the first reading. Sometime later I read them again and thought they were not as complicated as I realized he has already done the math computations. It should not be much of a problem to make different Kenjigs for different desired angles. Also one could get Wootz's program if money is not an issue.
Like Elden said, Dutchman's booklet is pretty simple... just ignore the formula part. ;) (It's not that it's not important, but it's not necessary to make it 'work'). If your stone is new (it's either 250 or 200 mm... since you titled this SJ-200 I'll guess the later), just flip over to "Table 6". You just need the angle you want to sharpen at, the distance between the jig stop and the edge of the blade (A), and the distance from the USB to the stone (S). Basically adjust 'A' and or 'S' until it lines up with the angle you want to sharpen at. (I'm sure that's clear as mud, :o but play with it a bit, and I think you'll see how it comes together... if not, there's a few other threads on it that can be tracked down).
I'm kinda in the "Keep it Simple" mode when starting out though... since you already have the fundamentals of sharpening from your Lansky days, I'd stick with: clamp the knife in the jig, mark the edge with a Sharpie, remove the Sharpie, and hone ;)... once you have that down, then you'll get an idea if you have a need for some of the other methods mentioned. (But everyone's different, so pick what works best for you). :)
Quote from: DonWerner on January 03, 2018, 06:34:37 PM
Hey Ken,
Thanks for your reply. I have looked at the Kenjig and it looks like a very useful jig. However most of my folding knives are not 30 degrees, mainly 20 and 25. Should I make a seperate jig for those then or just reprofile them to 30 degrees?
I also had a brief look at the Dutchman booklet, but it looks sorta complicated, so I 'm not sure how helpful it will be for me. :-)
Hey, Don.
Once you get accostumed to Dutchman's tables, they are very fast to use. For example, look at the table for 250mm wheel diameter (p7). Go down the left column a few lines to 15°. Then go across on that line to 139. That's the millimeter Projection I used. Look up at the top of that column and see 80mm Distance.
For 10° (20° combined bevel), start at the top line (10°). Slide over to the projection you want to use and then look up for the Distance. For 25° combined, split the difference between 12 and 13°.
I suggest making a separate kenjig for each bevel angle you use. I have made several out of cardboard, both as early prototypes and for "one off" work. Try cardboard to see if you like the idea.
My last math class was in high school in 1968. I found Dutchman's tables "kinda complicated" initially. The little bit of extra effort involved has proved most productive. You can do it!
With the jigs, you only do the set up once (for each bevel angle). If you sharpen six or sixty knives with that bevel angle, you will save a lot of time and tedium and your work will be consistently accurate.
Ken
I'm using the sharpie method and it works okay, the problem I am left with is that my knifes get sharp, but not super razor hair popping sharp, like I could get with my Lansky system. I wonder why I can't get the last 10%. Maybe I am too impatient when I sharpen and dont take enough time. How many passes or minutes do you guys use on your knifes, if you're sharpening from grit 250->1000->honing?
Quote from: DonWerner on January 05, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
I'm using the sharpie method and it works okay, the problem I am left with is that my knifes get sharp, but not super razor hair popping sharp, like I could get with my Lansky system. I wonder why I can't get the last 10%. Maybe I am too impatient when I sharpen and dont take enough time. How many passes or minutes do you guys use on your knifes, if you're sharpening from grit 250->1000->honing?
Time IMO is irrelevant... it all depends on the knife. Some knives take 2 minutes... some 10.
How the knife is finished is to me, what makes the difference. I like to make very light alternating passes on the sharpening wheel, before moving to the honing wheel. (Usually only takes a couple per side, up to around 1/2 dozen per side). This gives me a very clean, and nearly burr free edge. If I move to the honing wheel, (in particular, the leather wheel), and have a significant burr... which will be indicated by the leather wheel throwing up a lot of 'dust' or debris... I find the results are an edge that is not as sharp. So, translated, I don't use the honing wheel to debur... but to clean up the edge.
I also don't spend a lot of time on the leather honing wheel with this method. Usually just a light pass or two (at, or near the same angle as sharpening) to refine the edge gives me the best result. If on the SJ wheel, a couple of light alternating passes at a higher angle (2-4 deg. higher) will produce a "hair popping" edge. (So if you want to "mirror polish an edge, do that at the same angle on the SJ wheel, or slightly lower on the leather wheel, then do the light alternating passes at the higher angle).
Notice I use the word light (as in light pressure)... a lot. ;)
Don,
I just reread this entire topic. It's all to easy to just read the last post before replying. I think this topic is worthy of several quiet rereads. CB has shared a lot of valuable experience. I have not replied much because he has done such an outstanding job.
I would add only two minor suggestions: 1) Working with really good light can make a huge difference. For years I worked in a poorly lit garage. "Poorly lit" is a charitable description. Then one day I set up my Tormek on a Workmate just outside the garage. I was astounded with the difference working in daylight made. My present basement workshop looks like it has good light, lots of fluorescent fixtures. This is actually poor task lighting. Try holding a LED flashlight over your work.
I now have an AC powered LED light with a magnet over my Tormek. It is better, but not perfect. The light is good, however, the gooseneck is less solid than I would like. The magnet is only so so. I also have a battery powered magnetic base light. The light is quite good, as is the magnet. The gooseneck is adequate (but not great). The major design flaw is that most AA batteries are too thick for it. They fit into the holder, but cause the holder to jam. There is an acceptable diameter range for AA batteries. Most of the better batteries are within the larger range. Some of the cheap batteries will fit. If this unit had an AC adaptor, it would be ideal.
My lighting is now much better, however, I am still looking for improveed lighting.
2) Don, you used the word "knives". I suggest changing your focus to "knife", singular. If you want to sharpen six knives, put five of them out of sight and out of mind. CB is dead right; time is not the issue. Work with that one knife until you get it hair popping sharp. Pay attention to how you got to that point. Once you finally arrive at that sharpness, bring out the second knife. Stay with it until it is also hair popping sharp. Efficiency will come with practice, however, it will be impeded if you lose focus and start thinking about the next knife before you complete the first one.
Expect to experience a pleasant rush of success when that first knife is finally hair popping sharp.
Again, very solid advice, CB.
Ken
I appreciate that... but I hope others will also chime in. My way isn't the only way... just seems to work for me. ;) I'm sure others have tips/tricks that are effective... and may come closer to solving the issue... or providing that "ah-ha" moment.
There are many paths to sharp! 8)
I tried some of the advice today, I was giving in this thread. I decided to focus on one knife like Ken suggested, and I also used a pocket magnifier and took my time making sure the angle was spot on, before I started sharpening - and lo and behold, I just sharpened my first hair popping sharp knife. I didn't use the waterstone, but just the leather honing wheel, not sure if I could have gotten it even sharper, if I finished it off with the waterstone?
Ofcause I wanted to try and duplicate the result on another knife right away, but didn't quite get the same result. Still got it very, very sharp, but maybe lacking the last 5%. I will try again tomorrow.
How important is the angle when using the waterstone? Do I need to pay the same amount of attention to the angle as when I'm using the sharpening stone? The reason I ask is because I always hone freehand (on the leather wheel) and it doesn't seem to be that important if I hit the exact same/right angle when honing - but I might be completely wrong?
Thanks for all the great advice guys. I think I am finally on the road to cracking the code. :-)
Quote from: DonWerner on January 06, 2018, 05:15:49 PM
I tried some of the advice today, I was giving in this thread. I decided to focus on one knife like Ken suggested, and I also used a pocket magnifier and took my time making sure the angle was spot on, before I started sharpening - and lo and behold, I just sharpened my first hair popping sharp knife. I didn't use the waterstone, but just the leather honing wheel, not sure if I could have gotten it even sharper, if I finished it off with the waterstone?
Ofcause I wanted to try and duplicate the result on another knife right away, but didn't quite get the same result. Still got it very, very sharp, but maybe lacking the last 5%. I will try again tomorrow.
How important is the angle when using the waterstone? Do I need to pay the same amount of attention to the angle as when I'm using the sharpening stone? The reason I ask is because I always hone freehand (on the leather wheel) and it doesn't seem to be that important if I hit the exact same/right angle when honing - but I might be completely wrong?
Thanks for all the great advice guys. I think I am finally on the road to cracking the code. :-)
Glad it's working out. ;D
I think angle is always important,,, even on the leather wheel. It's not critical to match the angle exactly, but when I use the leather wheel, (and like you it's usually freehand, even if I sharpen with a jig), I always try and "sneak up" on the edge... starting at a slightly lower angle and gradually increasing it until I hear/feel it reach the edge... then back off ever so slightly. Too high an angle may leave you a sharp edge... but can sometimes take away that extra "5%" you're looking for... slightly dulling the edge, and leaving it not quite as sharp.
I think angle is even more important on the SJ wheel. If I use a jig to sharpen a knife on the regular wheel, I'll use it for the SJ wheel, following the guidelines I mentioned earlier. If I freehand, I still try and pay attention and be as accurate as possible.
Even though honing isn't removing as much metal, I still think it's important to watch the angle. Even if I'm maintaining a knife on a ceramic rod... which for me is usually only one or two passes per side, I find if I get careless, I can "kill" an edge.
I think it's good that the details are starting to matter... tells me it's coming together for you.
Yay! It's really coming along now. :) Just tried again with another knife with great results. Seems like I've not been paying enough attention to the angle. ::)
I tried sharpening the knife from grit 250->1000->leather honing->4000 waterstone. But finishing off with the waterstone actually made the knife less sharp than when I tested the sharpness right after I did the leather honing. I then used the leather hone again after the waterstone and got a good result. What is your guys procedure? Do you skip the leather hone if you're using the waterstone or finish with it instead?
Quote from: DonWerner on January 07, 2018, 02:54:34 PM
Yay! It's really coming along now. :) Just tried again with another knife with great results. Seems like I've not been paying enough attention to the angle. ::)
I tried sharpening the knife from grit 250->1000->leather honing->4000 waterstone. But finishing off with the waterstone actually made the knife less sharp than when I tested the sharpness right after I did the leather honing. I then used the leather hone again after the waterstone and got a good result. What is your guys procedure? Do you skip the leather hone if you're using the waterstone or finish with it instead?
Cool. 8)
If using the SJ wheel... I would skip the leather wheel step after the 1K... since the leather might slightly alter the angle... making the SJ wheel less effective. OTOH, I have had a couple of knives that after the SJ wheel, they just didn't seem to 'clean up' well, so I made a couple of passes on the leather wheel... so you can go that direction if needed. (Not sure if it was the knife or me). :o
Did you try a couple of really
light alternating passes on the SJ wheel at a bit higher angle? (2-4° higher). See if that makes a difference.
(If this doesn't help... say so, and I'll let someone else chime in). ;)
Quote from: DonWerner on January 07, 2018, 02:54:34 PM
Yay! It's really coming along now. :) Just tried again with another knife with great results. Seems like I've not been paying enough attention to the angle. ::)
I tried sharpening the knife from grit 250->1000->leather honing->4000 waterstone. But finishing off with the waterstone actually made the knife less sharp than when I tested the sharpness right after I did the leather honing. I then used the leather hone again after the waterstone and got a good result. What is your guys procedure? Do you skip the leather hone if you're using the waterstone or finish with it instead?
My result is the same. I think the leather wheel makes a sharper edge.
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 06, 2018, 04:20:19 PM
I appreciate that... but I hope others will also chime in. My way isn't the only way... just seems to work for me. ;) I'm sure others have tips/tricks that are effective... and may come closer to solving the issue... or providing that "ah-ha" moment.
There are many paths to sharp! 8)
I have found it interesting while reading, the difference in the approach of cbwx 34 and that of wootz in obtaining the final edge. I am not contesting either one's method. I am sure they both are obtaining sharp edges.
2 Quotes from cbwx34:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3479.msg21988#msg21988
I also don't spend a lot of time on the leather honing wheel with this method. Usually just a light pass or two (at, or near the same angle as sharpening) to refine the edge gives me the best result. If on the SJ wheel, a couple of light alternating passes at a higher angle (2-4 deg. higher) will produce a "hair popping" edge. (So if you want to "mirror polish an edge, do that at the same angle on the SJ wheel, or slightly lower on the leather wheel, then do the light alternating passes at the higher angle).
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3479.msg22012#msg22012
Did you try a couple of really light alternating passes on the SJ wheel at a bit higher angle? (2-4° higher). See if that makes a difference.
Quote from wootz:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3384.msg20799#msg20799
You must either be setting an angle on the SJ too steep, or overhoning the edge.
Try the following.
Having ground an edge on your SG wheel, change to the SJ, and adjust the US height to the edge angle as accurately as you can, by whatever method you use.
Then LOWER the US by 1 digit.
This way you will spare the very edge apex from the impact.
http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=209&pid=1602#pid1602
For CBN (or diamond) wheels, the crucial discovery was to hone on paper wheels at 0.1 degree less. E.g. an edge set on a CBN wheel grit #1000 at 15 degrees per side, is honed at 14.9 degrees.
To set a paper wheel with such precision would not be possible without our software.
This refines the edge not touching the very apex that is already 0.1 micron after the grit #1000 as shown by SEM.
Thanks to that, even the Grepper's beloved toothiness is preserved.
The remnants of the microburr are then removed by honing at the exact edge angle (15 degrees in our example) on a paper wheel with the finest diamonds 0.25/0.5 micron, and USB microscope shows the toothiness is all there, which is to advantage for knives.
Regarding microbevelling on the SJ wheel, I am aware that many apply it successfully, just it never worked for me.
It's all about how we hone, but can't tell what exactly differs till we watch each other side by side, which is hardly going to happen.
I must definitely be honing on SJ in a way that overhones the apex.
As soon as I tried a shallower than the edge angle, I started getting it sharp.
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 06, 2018, 04:20:19 PM
There are many paths to sharp! 8)
That's why cbwx34 often advises to try both approaches, and see which works for you.
In addition to saying, there are many paths to sharp, I should probably add, there are many levels of sharp, and there are many types of sharp. For example, wootz is testing his blades with some specific equipment, and some specific results in mind. I test to a different (and probably not as high) a level. So, for example, honing at a higher angle leaves me a "cleaned up" and better edge, it may do the same for wootz or others, but it's not the edge or "type of sharp" he's looking for... so for him it's a "fail".
As for types, some prefer a finer edge that easily goes thru what's being cut, others want a "toothy" or coarse edge, that isn't as "sharp" but is better at cutting rope for example. So, what I might consider "not sharp" to them might be "extremely sharp". Some think an edge that is as narrow as possible is sharp, while others will consider an edge sharp if it holds up for a trip in the backcountry performing a variety of "hard use" tasks, with minimal maintenance.
So, when I say, "there are many paths to sharp", it's the shorter and easier version of... "There are many paths to different types and levels of sharp, as well as the type of edge that will work best for you. It's why I always recommend trying different methods, and finding the one you like the best. :)
p.s. I should also add that the geometry of the knife also plays a part in what may or may not work.
Point well made.
Ken