After the compound is piled on the leather wheel, it's eventually peeled as shown in the picture. The peeled piece is like a bark. I usually sharpen the knife and apply a little pressure to the leather wheel. How can I avoid this problem?
The photo looks like you are using too much honing compound. Try using your honing wheel for a while without adding compound. You might also try using the side of a chisel as a scraper to remove some of the xcess compound.
Ken
"Too much compound" is something you see a lot, even in the YouTube instructional videos. I think the instruction steps...
- Apply a thin string of the compound before starting the machine. Rotate the wheel by hand.
- Start the machine and distribute the compound by pressing a tool gently against the wheel. Let the compound penetrate the leather.
... are overlooked. Also, Its why I recommended using a toothbrush in the other post. (My teeth are really shiny too). ;)
Another "mistake" I see in videos is applying compound before every knife/tool is honed. One application should last for a while.
Quote from: TormekOne application lasts for about 5–10 tools.
... according to Tormek's instructions.
I'll second... scrape some of the excess off
Thank you.
You're right. It seems to be caused by applying more PA-70 than necessary. However, even if a proper amount of compound is applied, it will eventually accumulate. If so, should I strip it off sometimes?
Sharpco,
As I recall, you have two Tormeks. Yes? Having two Tormeks is the ideal way to work through problems like this. You will need some sharpening practice tools. My choice, as I have stated before, would be 3/4" (19mm) chisels. (I have a dozen of these. Three or four would be a good number. They are inexpensive. Stick with the Irwin brand, as described.) I know several of you prefer knives over chisels. Either way, you need some learning objects for practice.
You also need some quiet time when you are not sharpening for customers.
After you remove the excess compound on both wheels, try adding just a very small amount to one of the wheels. I like CB's toothbrush idea. Don't add any to the other wheel. Start polishing several of your practice tools. I would place simple labels on them marked "no added compound" and "added compound". Marker or ink on pieces of masking tape is fine. Do enough polishing repetitions to see the effect of not adding any compound.
I like this kind of learning because it strips away distractions. All you are looking for in this case is the effect of very little added honing compound compared with no added compound. That is how I prefer to learn, one specific skill as simplified as possible, without the distraction of having to sharpen a dozen customer knives. This might seem like wasted time, however, once you truly master each small skill, you will work more efficiently from that time forward.
Keep us posted about your progress.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 31, 2017, 11:54:08 AM
Sharpco,
As I recall, you have two Tormeks. Yes? Having two Tormeks is the ideal way to work through problems like this. You will need some sharpening practice tools. My choice, as I have stated before, would be 3/4" (19mm) chisels. (I have a dozen of these. Three or four would be a good number. They are inexpensive. Stick with the Irwin brand, as described.) I know several of you prefer knives over chisels. Either way, you need some learning objects for practice.
You also need some quiet time when you are not sharpening for customers.
After you remove the excess compound on both wheels, try adding just a very small amount to one of the wheels. I like CB's toothbrush idea. Don't add any to the other wheel. Start polishing several of your practice tools. I would place simple labels on them marked "no added compound" and "added compound". Marker or ink on pieces of masking tape is fine. Do enough polishing repetitions to see the effect of not adding any compound.
I like this kind of learning because it strips away distractions. All you are looking for in this case is the effect of very little added honing compound compared with no added compound. That is how I prefer to learn, one specific skill as simplified as possible, without the distraction of having to sharpen a dozen customer knives. This might seem like wasted time, however, once you truly master each small skill, you will work more efficiently from that time forward.
Keep us posted about your progress.
Ken
Thank you, Ken.
You're right. I have two Tormeks. One is in the van, and the other is in my house. So I can put two Leather wheels in one place and do a comparison test.
Today, I stripped the compound from the leather wheel before starting work. And I did not apply any more compound to honing customers' knives. Surprisingly it worked fine.
I checked how sharp the edge was after polishing and when I felt it was not sharp enough I added very few compounds.
So far, I am satisfied. However, I should be careful not to apply more than necessary compounds.
Quote from: sharpco on October 31, 2017, 03:52:05 AM
Thank you.
You're right. It seems to be caused by applying more PA-70 than necessary. However, even if a proper amount of compound is applied, it will eventually accumulate. If so, should I strip it off sometimes?
If you don't apply too much compound (or oil), the wheel will last a really long time without cleaning. I've occasionally held a towel against mine to get some of the accumulated "black gunk" off, then add a bit of compound... but not much other than that.
Sharpco,
We have had questions about the leather honing wheel for at least as long as I have been a forum member (2009) and probably since the forum started in 2003. Once in a while, a member says or does something which sheds light on the issue. Your question is one of those light shedding moments. If you really spend some time working with different amounts of compound with good notes, you can get us closer to a deeper understanding.
The Tormek is a versatile tool. It can serve basic sharpening needs with very little preparation. It is also capable of more in depth work in the hands of someone willing to put the effort in mastering it. You are one of those persons. As another such traveler, I know this path can be both frustrating and rewarding. Do not get discouraged. I have seen the frontiers of knowledge pushed back in the last few years. Both the Tormek and its users are evolving. Be part of the evolution.
Ken
Quote from: cbwx34 on October 31, 2017, 03:05:27 PM
Quote from: sharpco on October 31, 2017, 03:52:05 AM
Thank you.
You're right. It seems to be caused by applying more PA-70 than necessary. However, even if a proper amount of compound is applied, it will eventually accumulate. If so, should I strip it off sometimes?
If you don't apply too much compound (or oil), the wheel will last a really long time without cleaning. I've occasionally held a towel against mine to get some of the accumulated "black gunk" off, then add a bit of compound... but not much other than that.
Thank you for letting me know that even with the right amount of compound I sometimes need to strip it off.
Quote from: Ken S on October 31, 2017, 03:29:35 PM
Sharpco,
We have had questions about the leather honing wheel for at least as long as I have been a forum member (2009) and probably since the forum started in 2003. Once in a while, a member says or does something which sheds light on the issue. Your question is one of those light shedding moments. If you really spend some time working with different amounts of compound with good notes, you can get us closer to a deeper understanding.
The Tormek is a versatile tool. It can serve basic sharpening needs with very little preparation. It is also capable of more in depth work in the hands of someone willing to put the effort in mastering it. You are one of those persons. As another such traveler, I know this path can be both frustrating and rewarding. Do not get discouraged. I have seen the frontiers of knowledge pushed back in the last few years. Both the Tormek and its users are evolving. Be part of the evolution.
Ken
I agree.
I saw a few people who disappointed Tormek and sold it. But they did not try to understand and master Tormek and did not participate in the forum.
I am glad to be able to participate in this forum.
Thank you.
Youngbin,
I over-oiled my leather wheel at first and had to scrape it clean again. It is a very resilient bugger, and has been working greatly ever since. Don't fret : We all have to learn. Some of us just take longer.
Rich
We had a member who was ready "to bin" his Tormek after one day. I thought he was very short sighted, and has moved on. I must be a slow learner. I am still learning after eight years of working with the Tormek.
Ken
The leather wheel should feel dry and sandpapery to be effective.
Dried honing paste works better than freshly applied.
Initially, one honing paste application may last for just 10 tools, but with every next application lasts for longer and longer.
Probably because more and more abrasive particles get embedded in the leather
Well stated, Wootz.
Ken
Quote from: sharpco on November 01, 2017, 12:07:01 AM
Thank you for letting me know that even with the right amount of compound I sometimes need to strip it off.
Might just be a confusion of words, but I just clean a little off... not totally strip it.
Quote from: wootz on November 01, 2017, 06:43:26 AM
The leather wheel should feel dry and sandpapery to be effective.
Dried honing paste works better than freshly applied.
Initially, one honing paste application may last for just 10 tools, but with every next application lasts for longer and longer.
Probably because more and more abrasive particles get embedded in the leather
This is true. Probably one of the mistakes I see a lot in videos... adding a ton of compound for every knife or tool sharpened... when they take it off, it looks like it was used to stir vanilla frosting. :o
The compound gets finer as it is used more also.
It sounds as though one tube of compound should last a long time. I should be interested to know, however, whether anyone has tried an alternative to the Tormek brand. Is it their own "secret formula" or just a standard product re-branded for convenience?
Quote from: ega on November 01, 2017, 04:34:59 PM
It sounds as though one tube of compound should last a long time. I should be interested to know, however, whether anyone has tried an alternative to the Tormek brand. Is it their own "secret formula" or just a standard product re-branded for convenience?
I think the fact that some people who don't even use a Tormek but buy the Tormek honing compound... might be a clue.
But can't really answer your question. The only similar compounds I can think of are some of the auto chrome/aluminum polish compounds. For a while some swore by "Meguiars Hot Rims & Aluminum Polish" (but I'm not sure if it was for the polish or the cinnamon scent). :o There's another chrome polish whose name escapes me that acted similar (broke down as you used it), but never made a comparison.
Obviously there's other honing compounds but the differences are more than just the abrasive... for example wax compounds can be applied, but the wax builds up and need to be cleaned off more often. I mentioned in another thread... some compounds that work well on one medium (paper wheels for example), may not work as well on the Tormek due to the speed difference. And of course, if you change the grinding wheel, a different compound may work better.
So the Tormek compound formula matches the purpose well... but not sure if it's "rebranded" from something else.
I recall way back when, Jeff was advocating Dursol. I see that it is still on Advanced Machinery's website (https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/collections/tormek-accessories/products/dursol-honing-compound) I've never used the stuff, though.
Brett
Quote from: brettgrant99 on November 01, 2017, 10:09:22 PM
I recall way back when, Jeff was advocating Dursol. I see that it is still on Advanced Machinery's website (https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/collections/tormek-accessories/products/dursol-honing-compound) I've never used the stuff, though.
Brett
Your post jarred some memories loose. After you posted Dursol... I remember I had a tube of something I tried years ago... so I went and dug around. Wenol is what I tried, and from what I remember, it was similar to the Tormek compound. Even smells the same. (No idea on how they compare $$$wise). Couple of other random thoughts...
The MSDS on Tormek's compound... PA-70 MSDS (https://www.tormek.com/media/105177/pa70_material_safety_data_sheet.pdf)... for an idea of what is in it. If you look at some auto polish MSDS... they're similar.
An earlier forum thread... Honing Compound PA-70 - Alternatives? (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2516.0)... that also mentioned Dursol.
So something tells me they're similar anyway....
Good question!
cbwx34 and brettgrant99:
Thanks for the insightful replies. The MSDS route seems likely to provide the best answer; that said, I just took a sniff of the Tormek and followed up with AUTOSOL (Dursol) metal polish which smells similar to me. I notice that there is a Sweden-only health warning on the Tormek tube so I shan't be making a practice of "inandning" it!
I suppose the practical point is that using a different compound might help to achieve a desired result - but would you need to have a separate honing wheel for each compound?
We have an Australian woodworker whose job is in a microscope lab, and he checked the Autosol metal polish.
Autosol abrasive particles are 6 to 3 micron in size, while Tormek honing paste 3 to 1 micron.
That woodworker uses Autosol for honing after a coarser wheel, in his case a #280 CBN wheel; while Tormek honing paste should be used after #800-1000.
Dursol is one of Autosol products, but honestly have no idea if they are the same.
Quote from: ega on November 02, 2017, 11:28:32 AM
...
I suppose the practical point is that using a different compound might help to achieve a desired result - but would you need to have a separate honing wheel for each compound?
Pretty much yes... since one compound will affect the results even if another compound is added. You can add a "more coarse" compound to a wheel that had a finer compound on it to see the results, but not the other way around.
Of course, you could attempt to clean the wheel between compounds... but not really practical, unless you're going to leave it that way for a long period of time.
Quote from: wootz on November 02, 2017, 12:03:39 PM
We have an Australian woodworker whose job is in a microscope lab, and he checked the Autosol metal polish.
Autosol abrasive particles are 6 to 3 micron in size, while Tormek honing paste 3 to 1 micron.
That woodworker uses Autosol for honing after a coarser wheel, in his case a #280 CBN wheel; while Tormek honing paste should be used after #800-1000.
Dursol is one of Autosol products, but honestly have no idea if they are the same.
From my understanding, a lot of these "polish compounds" are designed to quickly break down in use (that's what gives the polish)... so I'm not sure it can be this easy of a comparison... unless you're constantly "recharging" the wheel to obtain the results of the more coarse compounds
Page 44 of the Handbook says: "One application lasts for 5-10 tools."
This seems to be the cause of the problem. I think it is too much to apply a compound every 10 honing.
I check the sharpness of the edge after each honing and decide whether to re-apply the compound.
Quote from: sharpco on November 04, 2017, 05:29:09 AM
Page 44 of the Handbook says: "One application lasts for 5-10 tools."
This seems to be the cause of the problem. I think it is too much to apply a compound every 10 honing.
I check the sharpness of the edge after each honing and decide whether to re-apply the compound.
Totally agree. My main point was,,, not before every tool. Also, a little goes a long way.