Hi Tormek people and fans,
My name is Tom and I`m from the Netherlands. I have an obsession with sharpening knives which I incurred the last year. Started with sharpening on water stones and really like it. Not the best at it but I can make a kitchen knife hair shaving sharp. Now I have sharpened most of my friends knives and would like to take it to the next step. I enjoy sharpening so much that I`m thinking of the idea of charging people for it and be a bit more serious about it overall. Now I have watched hours on end on Tormek videos on youtube the last year and I really need that machine. Not really really but I have to give myself a valid reason to buy one. That`s why I thought I could make some money with the Tormek. What is you guys take on that?
There are some "old school" sharpeners here in the Netherlands but they mostly use those big old wheel grinders freehand and are not even water cooled. Not saying I can do a better job but would already be happy if I can deliver the same quality.
I understand learning the Tormek would take time. I already have lots of questions and hope you nice people can help me with that in the near future. Willing to learn and listen.
I hope to buy the Tormek T8 next month. It`s a big investment for me and really need to save up some money. Can buy the T4 already but with the semi professional sharpening plans I thought it would be a good idea to go for the T8.
Well that was it in a nutshell. Thank you for your time and sorry for the bad English.
Tom
Welcome to the forum, Tom.
If you look at the first post in the Tormek General Questions (Tips and Techniques), you will find my advice for new Tormek users. The topic has grown much too large. Reading just the first post will give you the flavor of it.
Basically, I recommend starting your Tormek training with a Blue Chip 3/4" (19mm) chisel, either Irwin or Marples, it is the same tool. I know you want to sharpen knives, however, you can learn much from one inexpensive chisel. The Irwin or Marples recommendation is very important; do not substitute another brand or size of chisel. This is exlained in the topic.
This size chisel fits easily in the SE-77 jig which is included with the T8. It lets you work with one large, easy to see bevel. You will learn the feel and sound of grinding with it. You will learn the necessary skills of using the TT-50 Truing Tool, stone grader, and leather honing wheel. you will become fluent with your Tormek. At that point, you have a head start working with knives.
Enjoy your happy task of learning the Tormek. Do not skimp on this learning stage. The time spent will serve you well. Keep posting your successes and questions.
Ken
Welkom Tom
On Wootz' website you can find the following info on his pricing: http://knifegrinders.com.au/02Prices.htm (http://knifegrinders.com.au/02Prices.htm)
Succes met het opstarten van je onderneming. ;)
Ton
Welcome to the forum.
My recommendation is to find some "practice" knives to start with and learn on... knives that you don't mind making mistakes on. This goes with my next tip... learn to fix knives with damage. You will undoubtedly encounter chips, broken tips, uneven bevels, etc. so on those same practice knives, learn how to fix damaged knives... at least minor damage. Many of these can be easily fixed on the Tormek.
Learn to sharpen freehand on the Tormek. While the jigs, guides, etc. can be used, its worthwhile to learn to do some work freehand.
Visit the "Sharpening Made Easy" (http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/) website. Lots of information there. There's even a "Sharpening School In a Box" (http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/video.htm) package that you might find worthwhile.
I'll second Dutchman's advice... forum member wootz has a lot of good information on his site.... http://knifegrinders.com.au/.
Ask questions and... Good luck!
Quote from: tomerus on October 10, 2017, 10:28:29 AM
I hope to buy the Tormek T8 next month. It`s a big investment for me and really need to save up some money. Can buy the T4 already but with the semi professional sharpening plans I thought it would be a good idea to go for the T8.
I'll add one more thing, related to this, as I was sharpening a knife this a.m. It depends on your definition of "semi-professional", but if you're thinking of this being a part time or occasional endeavor, the T-4 is more than adequate for the task. I got one a few months ago, and have taken it to friend's house to sharpen knives... does the job.
SteveB (the owner of the sharpeningmadeeasy site), took one to a job a while back, and had a couple of comments about it, you can read here (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3328.msg19956#msg19956)... one being the leather wheel was too small, however the T-2 has a slanted honing wheel, that could be used on the T-4, as a workaround (or hone with an alternative method).
Just giving you something to think about... I think a part time business could be run with the T-4... and you could always "upgrade" later, if the business took off... (and less money spent if for some reason it doesn't work out).
Ken's words of wisdom are sound and well grounded. While knives are readily available for a little money or free, there are things that are easily seen and learned while dealing with the wider face bevel of a bench chisel. Becoming well acquainted with the Tormek being one reason.
The grinding results of changing the grinding wheel back and forth between coarse and fine (also the in between grits and the coarse, straight after the trueing tool) are more easily seen on a bench chisel than a knife. There are things available (microscopes, USB scopes, edge testor, etc.) that allow the edge to be seen and analyzed, however, the bevel is more easily seen with the naked eye on a bench chisel. Most individuals, probably, are not ready to pay for these extras after laying down their money for a Tormek for a while. While they are not necessities for knife sharpening, we sure see them discussed here on the forum (the rest of us who do not have them, tend to remain silent! ::)).
Usually the first building project for a carpenter is not a skyscraper.
Well stated, as always, Elden!
Ken
Quote from: Elden on October 10, 2017, 09:07:05 PM
Ken's words of wisdom are sound and well grounded. While knives are readily available for a little money or free, there are things that are easily seen and learned while dealing with the wider face bevel of a bench chisel. Becoming well acquainted with the Tormek being one reason.
The grinding results of changing the grinding wheel back and forth between coarse and fine (also the in between grits and the coarse, straight after the trueing tool) are more easily seen on a bench chisel than a knife. There are things available (microscopes, USB scopes, edge testor, etc.) that allow the edge to be seen and analyzed, however, the bevel is more easily seen with the naked eye on a bench chisel. Most individuals, probably, are not ready to pay for these extras after laying down their money for a Tormek for a while. While they are not necessities for knife sharpening, we sure see them discussed here on the forum (the rest of us who do not have them, tend to remain silent! ::)).
Usually the first building project for a carpenter is not a skyscraper.
Everything in your post can be learned just by sharpening a knife... no chisel, microscopes, etc. needed. The problem I see with this chisel idea,,,, you're learning to sharpen something that is totally different... different jig needed, different design, different approach to the wheel, different steel, different movement... to name a few. It's like saying, to learn the clarinet, you must first learn the piano.
The "skyscraper" analogy doesn't really apply either... moving from chisel to knife is learning something different... not necessarily more complicated. If it were true, then a person who knows how to sharpen a knife on the Tormek, should, without knowing anything about how a chisel is sharpened, or the jig used, be able to pick one up and sharpen it correctly... do you think that's possible?
If a wide bevel is so important... why not just recommend a wide bevel knife to start with? At least you'd still be learning the right jig, movement, etc.
I'll stick with what I said,,, want to sharpen knives... learn on knives... a chisel sharpener does not a knife sharpener make. :)
What part of the Netherlands are you in? I spent last summer in Eindhoven. I would look for some turners or a turning club that might have a tormek that you could try out. Or look for a used one.
Good luck.
Brett
I would humbly suggest that if you want to learn to sharpen knives, get a bunch of cheap sacrificial knives from your local thrift store to practice with and have at it. At least that's what I did. If you are sharpening for other people, no doubt sooner or later you will need to:
Learn to sharpen so that you don't concave the blade at the center.
Learn to sharpen the tip and maintain an even bevel.
Learn to fix a broken off tip.
Learn to deal with chips on the edge that you will see all of the time with hard steel knives like Shun.
Learn to flatten the edge if it's not flat.
Learn all about using the stone grader and how various levels of abrasiveness grind an edge.
Learn how you need to constantly use the stone grader to maintain a particular level of abrasivness.
Learn all about the truing tool and keeping the wheel flat.
Learn how to sharpen curved knives like a bird's beak knife.
Learn how to sharpen very hard steel (RHC 60+) knives.
Learn how to sharpen cheap, crappy steel knives without the edges chipping away.
Learn about toothy vs smooth ground edges.
Learn how smooth edge roll and get dull quickly.
Learn how to sharpen very small blades like pen knives.
Learn how with small blades the knife jig hits the wheel. Learn to deal with it.
Learn about sharpening blades with unequal or single side bevels.
What about serrated blades?
Learn how to sharpen very long knives.
Learn how to sharpen cleavers.
Learn when to bail and recognize knives you can't sharpen.
Sooner or later someone will ask you to sharpen a pizza cutter.
Take a knife, grind the edge completely flat and then sharpen it.
Last, but maybe it should be first on the list, learn about deburring and how important it is.
Learn how much compound you want to use on the leather wheel.
Learn how much the compound smoothes a toothy edge if a toothy edge is what you want.
With one exception, I completely agree with Mr. cbwx34; learn to sharpen knives on the Tormek by sharpening knives on the Tormek.
The exception is that a microscope and an edge sharpness tester are invaluable in learning about sharpening. With those instruments you can lean more in a couple of months than years of sharpening without them. Those instruments allow you to really understand and actually prove what is going on at the edge rather than just speculating about it. For instance, a microscope allows you to see a burr and understand exactly how your burr removal method is working. An edge sharpness tester demonstrates how the burr affects sharpness. An edge sharpness tester allows you to understand and numerically represent the sharpness of your blade and how different sharpening procedures affect sharpness. You don't need those instruments to get a sharp edge, but if you really want to understand what is happening they are amazing instruments. For example, here's a post about when I tried to duplicate a commercial kitchen knife edge: http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=68
Anyway, that's one way to go about it. :)
Wow, I have never had a welcome this big on any board. Thank you all for your input and advice. I`m going to follow up on all. I thought I had to learn a lot with sharpening on waterstones but sharpening on the Tormek is at least evenly demanding. I think I`m going to give myself a good year to really get the Tormek and all of its ways. I have no illusion I have it all figured out in a month.
Maybe I can even find a sort of mentor who can show me some techniques first hand later down the road.
For now I`ll be studying the forum and its the wonderful posts. Again thanks for the welcome and the words of advice.
Tom,
I am starting to feel like Martin Luther at a Vatican Council advocating my chisel idea. :) However, here I stand.
Learning to sharpen with the Tormek does not require an arduous apprenticeship. Sharpening well does require acquiring some basic skills. Using the example mentioned of learning to play the clarinet; No clarinetist is required to also be a concert pianist. However, every student in a music conservatory is required to have mastered at least minimum skills on a piano in order to graduate. I am not suggesting a "double major" in knives and chisels. I am suggesting that a basic chisel is the easiest edged tool to learn to sharpen and that the skills learned with the chisel transfer to any edged tool. A chisel has a straight, flat bevel. It has only one bevel. The bevel is large enough to be easily examined. The 3/4" width fits in the jig easily and the long, wide back makes setting with the Anglemaster easy. The steel used in chisels is easily ground with the standard SG Tormek wheel.
The SE-77 square edge jig is included with the T8. The Irwin Blue Chip chisels I recommend as learning tools are inexpensive. I have paid an average of $8 US for them and probably have a dozen. One is adequate, although having a second allows visual comparison.
Having one of these chisels nearby is valuable for those inevitable times when sharpening is not going well. If you can sharpen your chisel, the difficulties are not with your Tormek or your grinding wheel. This is a very efficient troubleshooting practice.
Most of us, like you, have begun working with the Tormek with sharpening skills learned with bench stones. By spending some time with a chisel, when you sharpen your first knife, you will recognize the sound and feel of good grinding. You will know that your water bath is working well. You will know that your grinding wheel is true and graded properly for your intended task. You will know how to check your bevel angle setting with a black marker.
This background will give you confidence and allow you to focus on the actual knife grinding part of the process.
Before closing, I would like to comment on the T4. I have used a T4 for several years. I have found it a useful and underrated tool. Having used a T4, T7 and T8, I believe over ninety percent of our members using the larger size Tormek models would be just as satisfied with a T4. One argument for it that I reject is the alleged cost savings. When calculating the cost of any Tormek, you must include the cost of a TT-50 truing tool. Any grindstone will wear and need to be retrued eventually. (Eventually is sooner than you think.) I have never liked Tormek's price point marketing by not including the TT-50 with the T4. As much as I like the compact T4, I think you are probably best served with a new T8. I would emphasize new. As a new user, unless you are fortunate enough to have a mentor to help guide you, starting with a new unit gives you the full protection of Tormek's outstanding seven year warranty. It also eliminates potential problems from past use and starts you out with the present state of the art in Tormek machines, jigs and accessories. Although the Tormek jigs I purchased eight years ago still work as wellas ever, most have been superceded by improved models. Give yourself every sdvantage when you begin.
I respect the thoughts of our learned knife oriented members, many of whom have considerably more knife sharpening experience than I do. That stated, I stand with my belief in the wisdom of beginning with a chisel.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 11, 2017, 11:55:21 AM
By spending some time with a chisel, when you sharpen your first knife, you will recognize the sound and feel of good grinding. You will know that your water bath is working well. You will know that your grinding wheel is true and graded properly for your intended task. You will know how to check your bevel angle setting with a black marker.
Again, everything "learned" with the chisel, can be learned with a knife.... with the advantage of using the actual knife jigs & techniques. :-X
You probably have some good points about the T-8... but $490 (T-4 + TT-50) vs. $719 (T-8) (prices found on the net this a.m.)... is not an "alleged" savings. I think the real advantage of the T-8 is a wider wheel to work on (and will last longer if you plan on sticking with it, or have a lot of business).
How funny, you made the clarinet/piano example fit. (That'll teach me to make analogies on something I don't know about...). :D
Tom,
I like our members and guests to be able to make informed choices. You certainly have lots of information here! All is well intentioned. I would not say that any of it is wrong. Purchasing a Tormek is a long term investment. Since purchasing my Tormek, I have switched vehicles and houses. There are no wrong choices with Tormek, only choices which may suit your needs better. You must make your own choices in which Tormek you want and in how you wish to train yourself.
As you have seen already, we are a civil community that can disagree politely. I hope youwill remain active. I have learned a lot from the forum members, and will continue to do so. I hope you do, also, and that you will share the knowledge you gain.
Welcome aboard.
Ken
Well what happened today was the following.. I went to see a store which sells Tormek. Talked to the owner and asked if I could get a little demo. After getting everything explained (already knew the most but nice to hear it from another) he asked what I`m gonna use it for mostly.. and I said strictly knife sharpening. He said in that case I`ll make you a deal. He kept the chisel jig which comes with the T8 in the box and gave me the 2 knive jigs brand new (see photo) and a bit extra discount as well. Thought it was a bit of a now or never moment and bit the bullet.
It`s standing on the dinner table now looking at me, and I`m eyeballing back of course. Saturday is my day off and going to give it a go. There`s a nice DVD in the box and a rather thick manual that I will be studying intensively
So Ken I am absolutely not neglecting your advise to start off with a chisel but this came on my way so to speak. Sorry about that..
Thanks all again for all the input and I WILL keep you posted on things.
Don't forget about sharpening all manner of other items.
My answer to your question is to think about your friends, associations, coworkers, etc and go where the money is if you want to make a few bucks sharpening. My mom is big into quilting and sewing, She recently got me access to a group of quilters making kids blankets for those affected by the hurricanes. I went and stayed pretty busy sharpening scissors for 4-5 hours, put a healthy sum in my pocket, made a donation to the cause, and also felt like I did my small part for the blanket making/hurricane relief. So while you are waiting to purchase/researching. Look around your social sphere and get some ideas for where/what you can sharpen"_____________" for a couple bucks here and there.
A friend of mine processes deer on the side, I sharpened his knifes for cheap/free, and he spreads the word to hunters that I do a great job sharpening knives. In the long run sharpening his knives for cheap/free gets me a good bit of business.
Woodworkers know other woodworkers in the area, Foodies know other foodies, gardeners other gardeners, etc.
Don't turn down 300 Euro just because you only sharpen knifes not scissors
Point well taken.
Ken
Quote from: tomerus on October 11, 2017, 07:05:10 PM
It`s standing on the dinner table now looking at me, and I`m eyeballing back of course. Saturday is my day off and going to give it a go.
Wow! Congrats!
Bet you can't hold off until Saturday... 8)
Congratulations and good luck!
Quote from: cbwx34 on October 11, 2017, 09:00:21 PM
Quote from: tomerus on October 11, 2017, 07:05:10 PM
It`s standing on the dinner table now looking at me, and I`m eyeballing back of course. Saturday is my day off and going to give it a go.
Wow! Congrats!
Bet you can't hold off until Saturday... 8)
You are right! Just did my first kitchen knife and almost made it kukri knife lol
Ooh well can`t be bothered part of the fun. Think I used way to much pressure and DIDN`T read the manual.
Going to read now :-)
No doubt you will get the hang of it much faster than you suspect.
Maybe a good place to start is to understand how the stone grader affects the wheel. There is a big difference between an aggressive wheel made coarse with the rough side of the stone grader, and a glass like smooth wheel created by using the smooth side of the stone grader.
Possibly dress the wheel with the rough side of the stone grader and grind away on some junker knife. Experiment with different pressure when sharpening. Then dress the wheel perfectly smooth with the smooth side of the stone grader and do the same thing. No doubt you will notice a big difference!
Everybody here went through the same thing at some point, and everybody here enjoys helping and answering questions. Before you know it using your Tormek will seem easy. :)
Quote from: grepper on October 12, 2017, 04:20:14 AM
No doubt you will get the hang of it much faster than you suspect.
Maybe a good place to start is to understand how the stone grader affects the wheel. There is a big difference between an aggressive wheel made coarse with the rough side of the stone grader, and a glass like smooth wheel created by using the smooth side of the stone grader.
Possibly dress the wheel with the rough side of the stone grader and grind away on some junker knife. Experiment with different pressure when sharpening. Then dress the wheel perfectly smooth with the smooth side of the stone grader and do the same thing. No doubt you will notice a big difference!
Everybody here went through the same thing at some point, and everybody here enjoys helping and answering questions. Before you know it using your Tormek will seem easy. :)
Thank you, will experiment with the stone grader for sure.
Can I ask another question?
I was having doubts yesterday using the anglemaster correctly. Does the plastic part that you use to set the angle need to touch the stone and the blade of the knife altogether? (see pictures) Or do you set that part of the anglemaster on the blade itself without touching the stone? Also when sharpening a long thin flexible blade (see in picture orange handle) it seems impossible to find the angle. So because it`s a sort of filet knife you set in on say 12.5% on the anglemaster?
Another question. How to set the knife correctly in the jig? Does the end of the jig (the part that actually holds the knife) needs to be parallel to the back/shoulder of the blade or should it be parallel to the cutting edge? (see pictures)
Lot`s of questions.. sorry about that.
Also when I set the universal support bar almost touching the stone and you can only see a little light shining through and I spin the wheel I can see the stone is higher on one part. Does this mean it`s time to truing my stone?
Thanks all :-)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/lVLd3N6mWpr8Jwt13
https://photos.app.goo.gl/UVNy2v1hD4NDvc533
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Cv1SRkyeom3nOl7P2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xRn5wicuyvKMBOJk2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/omiYi38H8YXbHU1j2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wlt2WUjmPh3OIpDO2
Quote from: tomerus on October 12, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
was having doubts yesterday using the anglemaster correctly. Does the plastic part that you use to set the angle need to touch the stone and the blade of the knife altogether? (see pictures) Or do you set that part of the anglemaster on the blade itself without touching the stone? Also when sharpening a long thin flexible blade (see in picture orange handle) it seems impossible to find the angle. So because it`s a sort of filet knife you set in on say 12.5% on the anglemaster?
Another question. How to set the knife correctly in the jig? Does the end of the jig (the part that actually holds the knife) needs to be parallel to the back/shoulder of the blade or should it be parallel to the cutting edge? (see pictures)
Lot`s of questions.. sorry about that.
Also when I set the universal support bar almost touching the stone and you can only see a little light shining through and I spin the wheel I can see the stone is higher on one part. Does this mean it`s time to truing my stone?
First I'll answer a couple of your questions (and I 'stole' a couple of your pictures)...
The Anglemaster should touch the stone and blade (but it's OK to cheat a little bit if needed)...
(http://image.ibb.co/mGuVow/IMG_0030_01.jpg)
The edge of the jig should be parallel to the cutting edge...
(http://image.ibb.co/jDDO8w/IMG_0029_01.jpg)
My take on truing the wheel. For knives it's not that critical... if I can't "feel" the stone being out of round during sharpening, and it's not obvious looking at it, I don't worry about it. (In other words, if you're only seeing it by closely examining it while comparing it to the support bar... don't bother at this point). (As you gain experience, you can true it as needed/desired).
Now, here's my suggestion to get started.
Watch the video Jeff Farris made on knife sharpening (more than once)... https://youtu.be/fYURcwkKGPs
(For practice, your chef's knife is a good candidate for this... easy to set up and sharpen).
Grade the stone "fine" (for most knives, it's all you'll ever need, unless it needs repairs).
Set the angle by matching the current angle on the knife. Use the "Replicating the Existing Edge Angle" found in the manual in the Knife Jig SVM-45 section. (You can do this for the fillet knife too... but do that knife later).
Sharpen the knife as shown in the video. Pay attention to how the marker is removed, especially in the belly to tip area. Practice moving the clamp closer to and farther away from the belly/tip area.... remark with a marker each time, and notice how it changes. Then, set the clamp so the belly/tip area matches the rest of the blade for sharpening.
Sharpen the knife... dull it... resharpen it a couple of times. Address any problems you encounter or questions you have at this point.
Don't move on until you can sharpen the knife, matching the existing angle, to a great cutting edge, without issue.
Hope that helps... ask more questions as needed! :)
@ cbwx34 Thank you for your advice and help!
So last night I had my second go with the Tormek and I must say I think I really managed to sharpen a knife. When first time using the Tormek I was very tensed and in my head it had to succeed on my first attempt. Well that seldomly works. So I loosened up a bit and changed my attitude and got in a more "Zen" state if you will.
Tried my old chef knife but I could hear the wheel with every spin eating the blade at a certain point so I thought I had to true my stone in order to progress.. I made 2 short youtube clips about that, before and after:
https://youtu.be/U_l57W_9520
https://youtu.be/ZBEYaOp4SDQ
Now that the wheel was OK I took off.. Used the Anglemaster (more) correctly and sharpened away. The trick for me was very little pressure and a fluid motion. One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
So all in all a rather succesfull evening and with time I know for sure now the results will get better and more persistent.
Well.. till next update! :-)
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Quote from: tomerus on October 13, 2017, 08:59:11 AM
So last night I had my second go with the Tormek and I must say I think I really managed to sharpen a knife. When first time using the Tormek I was very tensed and in my head it had to succeed on my first attempt. Well that seldomly works. So I loosened up a bit and changed my attitude and got in a more "Zen" state if you will.
Tried my old chef knife but I could hear the wheel with every spin eating the blade at a certain point so I thought I had to true my stone in order to progress.. I made 2 short youtube clips about that, before and after:
https://youtu.be/U_l57W_9520
https://youtu.be/ZBEYaOp4SDQ
Now that the wheel was OK I took off.. Used the Anglemaster (more) correctly and sharpened away. The trick for me was very little pressure and a fluid motion. One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
So all in all a rather succesfull evening and with time I know for sure now the results will get better and more persistent.
Well.. till next update! :-)
Congrats... sounds like you're well on your way.
I can tell you know a lot about sharpening, by your burr removal technique.
I always suggest grading the stone fine (or as someone else said, just leave it in its "natural state" without using the stone grader) to avoid excess metal removal, but i rarely find the need to actually grade it coarse. I will be interested to see if you still find the need for this over time... might depend on how much pressure is used, and/or how fast you move the knife on the stone (I had to learn to slow down a bit... I used it like a belt grinder when I first started). (Just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that... just my experience). Interesting part about truing the stone also.
Thanks for sharing... looking forward to the next update! :)
I do not disagree with the advice put forth by the knife people. I believe it is most probably the way most Tormek users learn knife sharpening. I certainly would not speak sgainst the videos of Jeff Farris.For the many years he worked with Tormek, he was without a doubt one of the top Tormek experts.
Whether or not having a true wheel is required for knife sharpening, I would not use this as an excuse for slipshod practice. Call me an old fuddy duddy; I believe in the importance of using a true, properly graded wheel. I have been plagued by gremlins too many times caused by an untrue wheel which looked OK. I believe it is important to begin by developing fastidious habits.
I am hesitant to mention it to beginners, however, the SG is not a two grit grinding wheel. We live in a digital world, where things are believed to be either coarse or fine. Several years ago, I learned from forum member Ionut that a third grit existed. A freshly trued wheel has a coarser grit than the stone grader graded coarse. More recently, Stig told me that the SG could be graded to intermediate grits by using the fine side for shorter grading times. I tested this myself by using the stone grader fine side for a much longer time. My SG was noticeably finer; I had been using my SG at an intermediate grit.
Another revelation first learned from Stig was the effect of finishing with a lighter touch. The finish is noticeably finer.
As I stated, I do not dispute the program of the knife people. It is solid. I might suggest that it is not the end all.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 13, 2017, 08:34:12 PM
I do not disagree with the advice put forth by the knife people. I believe it is most probably the way most Tormek users learn knife sharpening. I certainly would not speak sgainst the videos of Jeff Farris.For the many years he worked with Tormek, he was without a doubt one of the top Tormek experts.
Whether or not having a true wheel is required for knife sharpening, I would not use this as an excuse for slipshod practice. Call me an old fuddy duddy; I believe in the importance of using a true, properly graded wheel. I have been plagued by gremlins too many times caused by an untrue wheel which looked OK. I believe it is important to begin by developing fastidious habits.
I am hesitant to mention it to beginners, however, the SG is not a two grit grinding wheel. We live in a digital world, where things are believed to be either coarse or fine. Several years ago, I learned from forum member Ionut that a third grit existed. A freshly trued wheel has a coarser grit than the stone grader graded coarse. More recently, Stig told me that the SG could be graded to intermediate grits by using the fine side for shorter grading times. I tested this myself by using the stone grader fine side for a much longer time. My SG was noticeably finer; I had been using my SG at an intermediate grit.
Another revelation first learned from Stig was the effect of finishing with a lighter touch. The finish is noticeably finer.
As I stated, I do not dispute the program of the knife people. It is solid. I might suggest that it is not the end all.
Ken
Tools that require things to be as perfectly "square" as possible to perform correctly, as well as jigs that have two mount points on the USB, typically require the stone to be as true as possible. That's why, if you notice in the manual, a step for these tools/jigs is to 1st check and true the stone (SE-77, SVH-320, and others). Knife sharpening seldom meets either of these requirements. (A third requirement might be if you're measuring angles in fractions of a degree...).
That's not to say the stone shouldn't be kept true... it's just not as essential to be that precise for good results. Like I said before, if it's noticeably out of true, or you can tell when sharpening, (which was the case here), then yeah, true the wheel. But, I don't consider it "slipshod practice" to say that it doesn't need to be kept true to the degree that some of the other tools/jigs require (close examination comparing it to the USB as required by some jigs, which is what as first mentioned). Common sense applies when evaluating the stone and what's being sharpened. (Obviously, not saying that your knife should look like a surfer paddling out to catch the "big one" as it rides on the stone).... ;)
Also, not that I've had a lot of new wheels pass thru my life, but I've never seen one out of the box that needed truing. Apparently it happens though (assuming this stone was new).
While a freshly trued wheel does have a more coarse surface, my experience is it will quickly "settle in" closer to the coarse finish of the stone grader. But you're right, you can finesse a coarser or finer finish out of the wheel. The "intermediate" finish you mentioned, is probably what I referred to earlier as its "natural state"... the stone seems to fall in between the coarse/fine stone grader (favoring the coarse side, or in your case, the fine side, since you used the stone grader), if the grading stone is not used for a while... especially if initially left coarse. Probably why the manual suggests occasionally "refreshing" the stone with the coarse side, if doing some heavy grinding.
Hope that clarifies my earlier post a bit. :)
CB,
Sometimes a comment has a ring of truth about. Your statement about tools which must be square or jigs with two point mounting has that ring for me. Good point.
One of my forum projects is to successfully use the SB-250 blackstone for heavy grinding, such as reshaping a hss turning gouge. I am not an active turner, however, I have several hss turning tools. The project is ongoing, although I have become convinced that the problem is using too much pressure when grinding. My problem was that the grinding wheel glazed over very quickly. It was very frustrating. One positive outcome of this frustration was that it forced me to become very fluent with the truing tool. You are quite correct; the freshly trued coarser stone quickly reverts to being less coarse. In this case, that meant glazing over again. For that test, that brief period of coarseness was the only time when any significant grinding occured. I need to continue the testing using much lighter grinding pressure. I believe the blackstone will continue cutting well longer. The CBN wheel did not cut any better than the blackstone cut initially; the CBN wheel just did not glaze and continued cutting.
The "third coarseness grade" is far from ideal. It soon wears off, however, in my opinion, it is worth keeping in the quiver as a reserve strategy.
I ended up keeping the truing tool mounted on a separate support bar and making many quick changes. I also made much deeper cuts with the truing diamond. These were successful. I still prefer multiple very light cuts when time and temper permit. It is nice to be able to grind quickly when needed. I also became adept at shortening the travel time of my truing cut to make the surface initially more coarse. The test did not pass. However, the skill gained with the truing tool has proved valuable.
I agree with you about most Tormek wheels being true out of the box. My suggestion to true the wheel is probably a leftover from dry grinding thinking. I have owned a six inch high speed dry grinder since 1972. I have not used it in recent years, however, high speed dry grinding remains in my memory banks. There are two reasons beyond "good standard (dry grinding) practice" that I recommend early truing. The first is psychological. Actually going through the process of truing a wheel changes the mental situation from believing a wheel is true to knowing the wheel is true because you have trued it. The second reason is my belief that many Tormek users are apprehensive about the truing process. I was this way, and, I am sure that I was not alone. If a new essentially true wheel is user trued, only one or two very light (half a number) cuts may be necessary. When a very light cut produces continuous grinding around the circumference and scross the wheel, the wheel is true. The surface loss is miniscles: the wheek becomes "known true"; and the user becomes more confident and more skilled.
I try to approach life without the impediment of an ego. I think civil differences in thought can be very productive, and try to evaluate comments equally, whether they are mine or from others. We are all products or our various background influences. Sharing those influences and discoveries benefits us all.
Keep thinking and exploring, CB; you make me think and grow. At the end of the day, we may still have our original beliefs, however, those beliefs will be broadened and supported by the inclusion of other ideas.
Ken
Ken,
I recognize that this reply is a bit off the knife topic, but wanted to add it due to your note about high speed steel (HSS) and the black wheel (SB-250).
My experience has shown that reshaping a tool where the cutting edge is more than ⅛" (2-3 mm) wide is REALLLY slow on the Tormek wet grinder. If I need to reshape an edge on something like a skew or a point tool :
- I reshape it on the high speed grinder using the BGM-100 to hold the universal support bar (USB), and hold the tool using the appropriate Tormek jig. Note : I do stop often to cool the tool in water.
- Then, I sharpen the tool on the Tormek grinder.
This takes me well under 10 minutes, even with setup.
When I tried to reshape such tools on the Tormek grinder, it could take upwards of an hour. I highly recommend the BGM-100 when reshaping. It has been a worthwhile investment for lathe tools.
Please note: I have not tried this approach with knives. It may or may not be the best. Kind regards,
Rich
Good comments, Rich.
There is another option. I reshaped a turning gouge from jig setting two to four in five minutes. I returned it to two in another five minutes. I used a 180 grit CBN wheel wet with the Tormek. This let me combine essentually equal speed with the dust free wet environment of the Tormek. There is no cooling time with the Tormek. Using a CBN wheel, even used dry, an experienced Tormeker should not need cooling time when using the wheel on a Tormek.
I appreciate the idea behind the BGM-100. I just think the process can be handled with a Tormek and the right wheel.
Ken
Quote from: RichColvin on October 14, 2017, 04:22:57 PM
Please note: I have not tried this approach with knives. It may or may not be the best.
I have used a dry grinder (free hand) to shape a knife that's had its tip broken off. It works well but you do need to be careful and keep dipping it in water to avoid getting it too hot. That will ruin the knife in the sense that you will never be able to maintain an edge on the tip. This is especially important with things like a small pocket knife where the tip is used a lot. That is usually the part of the edge that dulls first on my pocket knives.
In this video, Our own Steve Bottorff demonstrates how to repair a broken knife tip with a Tormek. Stronger measures might seem necessary for a major repair, however, I think the Tormek with an SG grinding wheel should handle most broken tips.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 15, 2017, 07:17:13 PM
In this video, Our own Steve Bottorff demonstrates how to repair a broken knife tip with a Tormek. Stronger measures might seem necessary for a major repair, however, I think the Tormek with an SG grinding wheel should handle most broken tips.
Ken
This video???
https://youtu.be/xYrlJizVGbQ
;)
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on October 15, 2017, 05:44:09 PM
Quote from: RichColvin on October 14, 2017, 04:22:57 PM
Please note: I have not tried this approach with knives. It may or may not be the best.
I have used a dry grinder (free hand) to shape a knife that's had its tip broken off. It works well but you do need to be careful and keep dipping it in water to avoid getting it too hot. That will ruin the knife in the sense that you will never be able to maintain an edge on the tip. This is especially important with things like a small pocket knife where the tip is used a lot. That is usually the part of the edge that dulls first on my pocket knives.
I would offer that you're the exception to the rule. Knives and "high speed grinders" typically don't mix.
The Tormek does a good job on tip repairs, reprofiles, etc. For example, I started to remake a "safety" knife with another (manual) sharpener, but quickly switched to the Tormek to do the job...
(https://image.ibb.co/kdTPGG/Safety_Knife_Tip_Add.jpg)
... with the standard (SG) wheel. One tip (pun intended) :) to using the Tormek is the ability to keep the knife on the stone vs. the quick passes followed by cooling needed on the grinder... you can get quite a bit done in a reasonable amount of time. Common broken tips, chips in the edge, etc. can easily be done on the Tormek.
Yes, that's the video. I did the copy and forgot the paste. Oops.....
My suggestion would be to become skilled with things like tip repairs with the standard SE grinding wheel. At that point, if the grinding time still seems too long, consider a CBN wheel, SB, or a dry grinder. You must decide if the time you realistically save is worth the extra equipment cost.
Ken
Quote from: tomerus on October 13, 2017, 08:59:11 AM
...
One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
..
I am a little surprised no one have told you yet to change the parts I've highlighted in red, before they turned into a habit.
Do not aim to raise a burr on one side first - in doing so you will, first, overgrind and concave the middle portion of the blade under the clamp, and second, waste the life of your blade by grinding away too much steel.
Alternate sides with each pass. On a finely graded wheel maybe with each 2 passes.
Do not aim to raise a burr all along the edge in one go - your wheel is not a bench stone. The burr first forms in the clamped portion of the edge, then at the tip portion, and finally at the heel. As soon as you feel the burr anywhere on the edge, stop grinding that segment, and grind only the segments falling behind - alternating sides!
When you get all portions of the edge done, do one long bolster-to-tip pass on each side to even up.
"After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. " This way you deform the straight line of the edge you've got under the burr, doing it no good - the burr shouldn't bother you, it is dealt with by honing.
Tormek honing paste is omnipotent on leather, covering all grits of your SG wheel - you can go to honing straight after the coarse 220 grit wheel, and still deburr completely, getting a very sharp toothy edge - not good enough for chisels, but OK for kitchen knives.
Quote from: wootz on October 16, 2017, 02:16:42 AM
Quote from: tomerus on October 13, 2017, 08:59:11 AM
...
One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
..
I am a little surprised no one have told you yet to change the parts I've highlighted in red, before they turned into a habit.
Do not aim to raise a burr on one side first - in doing so you will, first, overgrind and concave the middle portion of the blade under the clamp, and second, waste the life of your blade by grinding away too much steel.
Alternate sides with each pass. On a finely graded wheel maybe with each 2 passes.
Do not aim to raise a burr all along the edge in one go - your wheel is not a bench stone. The burr first forms in the clamped portion of the edge, then at the tip portion, and finally at the heel. As soon as you feel the burr anywhere on the edge, stop grinding that segment, and grind only the segments falling behind - alternating sides!
When you get all portions of the edge done, do one long bolster-to-tip pass on each side to even up.
"After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. "
This way you deform the straight line of the edge you've got under the burr, doing it no good - the burr shouldn't bother you, it is dealt with by honing.
Tormek honing paste is omnipotent on leather, covering all grits of your SG wheel - you can go to honing straight after the coarse 220 grit wheel, and still deburr completely, getting a very sharp toothy edge.
I know I read your thread on the subject of concaving the middle of the blade... might be worth a read at this point.... Middle Overgrinding Problem (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3055)... to better understand your post.
Raising a burr on one side, then switching sides, is a tried and true technique. In most cases, the grind starts at the shoulder and moves to the edge, so there's little chance of removing too much metal, (or pushing the edge "off center", which some think is possible). If it's a major job, I'll occasionally switch sides, just to insure that things are staying even, but you'd have to elaborate a bit for me to understand how this grinds away too much steel. (An exception being if the edge is super dull or was repaired leaving the edge "flat", then you have to pay attention not to off center the edge, or overgrind one side).
As for raising a burr "all along the edge in one go"... that might just be how the concept is interpreted, but your description is accurate... you do raise a burr all along the entire edge, but some areas might need a little more work than others. I also think this eliminates the concave issue described in the other thread. I think constantly alternating sides might make it more difficult to detect when a burr is created... you might have to adopt a different technique (marker method, magnification, visual inspection, etc.)... (unless I'm misunderstanding something here).
Finally, all I can say is, I adopted reducing or removing the burr prior to honing a long time ago, and my edges improved noticeably, both in initial sharpness, and longevity. I'm a firm believer in this. Honing for me is to further refine the edge, and remove any remaining burr that didn't get removed using the technique tomerus described. I don't leave the burr for the hone. You're probably the first I've ever heard say that it will, "deform the straight line of the edge....", so again, you'd have to elaborate.
What you say, my friend, I read as an extrapolation of a bench stone experience onto a rotary wheel - the wheel works little differently.
On a bench stone I would also get rid of the burr before moving to a strop, as everyone else, but with the rotary wheel you can't get an even grind all along the edge that is already at about 2 micron apex width in the area adjacent to the burr - try to visualise what's happening to an edge like that when you repeatedly drag it across a rotating wheel which even finely graded has 10-15 micron grains, flipping over and over.
It probably benefits to finish with a very light SINGLE pass on the side with the burr - remnants of the burr will still be there though - but not by "a couple VERY light passes on both sides..."
A raised burr is a breaking point in any sharpening session, because the edge apex next to the burr is at 1-2 micron width, no matter what grit.
It is a very delicate length of steel which is easy to deform by grinding further - stop here, and change to a finer wheel or straight to the leather wheel. Because from this point on, it is too easy to dull the edge apex by too much diligence. You physically can not refine an edge with the burr by continuing on the same grit that has raised that burr, and on a rotating wheel you can only worsen it.
Extrapolating my bench stone experience onto a wheel, I kept raising a burr on one side first, before flipping to the other, till realised all the wrongs this technique brings with it. Steve Bottoroff recommends flipping over with each pass - but do I really have make an authority call to be heard? You grind away more steel off your blade using this approach for exactly the same reason why you can not raise a burr simultaneously all along the edge - where in a straight edge knife, sheepsfoot etc you get a concavity from overgrinding the middle, in all other edges you waste metal from the same overgrinding while raising a burr on one side first.
I've been told I may sound mentorish when I try to put things black-and-white clear, apologies if I do, it's not my intention.
So Tormek friends.. a little update and of course some new questions. Hope y`all don`t mind.
As I gain more confidence the bevels get more smoother and better looking overall. That part is going okay and it improves with every knife thankfully.
Now today I got a bit confused. I sharpened a chef knife (cheap) and got it razorsharp. Went on to the next knife. Did all the steps looked beautiful (edge wise) tried it on a piece of paper and it couldn`t cut anything.. not even butter.(note: I sharpened this knife before and made it dull for resharpening) I figured out I used the Angel Master wrongly. Probably went from a steeper angle to a wider angle so I need to focus on the angle master more.
Some other thing that I thought was weird (most likely to my misunderstanding or wrongfully using the machine) I noticed when skipping the honing wheel and went straight for my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife was MUCH sharper. So I think I use the honing wheel wrong perhaps. Used a bit extra oil AFTER I put on the Tormek compound because it looked so dry. Awfull thing to do I read in other topics. So later on I thought wait a minute what if I put a bit of extra fine compound on the honing wheel (same as I use on my leather paddle) results got a bit better but I think I now made all the mistakes one can make with a honing wheel and have to buy a new one. Well.. first stone and honing wheel I offer to the learning process than :)
Below some pics of my progress on the Tormek
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V89is5W8TJfkUWCx0sXwjqZvb4zuCxufkngXilWy7Xa8dToPzJzFE32qQdQtnuWbcOa22xoINsn9mORnJx_VTYyuTjSR712NWTpuPjXqANzcveOA_2L04WbQGxx_nRc2bM3n-NaB2E8eTmsWRHyYL431YGxasXMeMyhzVkfTvpzLsPDdM926y_WHAt1XYUeJLvYLVWQbAZWXsMLWVt-6thOmOad7ICASBTfvn9pM5WSaoMaUd-QLLAZBcotgz26o3Org0dXy0b8oAcSjcvAPkQRIqGNIiA5Vf1bjb781FCgUyg1IZ8pVjkdmeWr4H-fHWIO9hmBhCyXb3UTVVomGuDMxvvUnCCN7G3KTwgWFMZlv5cHjmaAdLaHzU5YuxiFjo8T4MB5u1DmHeF4E9UZTvd58VDTKmtMA-xlc88U2aDZCmqGxcWCgzyQyIUNuTAIKPJz1T90-AxsNMqnQHxt5PQvXqklhr__bI89peG6gMNvUCgeB3ZbkV5swRGeLA6zmSestuYKx6U0HURNaYmz7iIuQw0FG28MHtW6G_WPaOpVvAmARNdGK3A6CIUibpiNDgTZAn6dEz8AQ0D0bqL7jfcfH9Oy6zpveLSkuKJjMb756zzlc6o9e8_odfvPPnB9eDiLqZAnFo4fyxCEdUmmHXqqQMPL0R1VXSnY=w506-h899-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Oi5ERfTMXabVueuiZAfoOahB_ibhPr4UgccC6LdHDjM9FqjhvYc4A8SwfK64nSxfrQ-aOnCrPIx3m_zeoQ7afWUz0h2HBKPTSs8QzcofB6349_b6OiuZXGmsVLxp_Zjq71LSHoDE5lXAHUN8V8tsv8JY8d4wfX_Kv_ytyQ3VTeWmc1bsqmBpiny8CL31Eyqr6A4UGRQw0huD86skfMLuOa_vGqAFeZZtB3CsMqKJJPjgcwEA513H-6nbVU4CaMBb8kDvWYodeiTStaFnApm-LgGmeUW49gWrQXwikWPRTVxT29waJalNEQjw2ps0jUVUNwWTRDcZIKWasych4PlRkXiVGhq26xCHb6HBlr8a3FGCYayChKUiIKj22gU7e3yC5ZhSAQw1qcdVGtQQv2rgF-zEi_KGwYRaKrEl2t8ea7ono7EgXYp9BQMEBjLSW1SO0RddNFS8H9vWZOtIUR8aE2rSZYDrTiU-sydZlSODL23yO-Iuqgm6cOtbxgJqglOGFeD6ycjZt-qGHH0LbW8c8iw_gAITQTON1Wfn13eG4Ka4O41HWFy5NLOKWmc7bbo5qe-vo3lRhpBm-Fo4H2OHMns5CYQE2gzrYA3OZ1ZnkZDQiak_Y5N4sAhPuIYrNRjszVqscxBkeAb6ZSAvCmjJ42seqlAtTp7B2n0=w1598-h899-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YJC6ssgWRCjZ80wP3c-2Z9YAaw060LEmIzwc2Gaj-FVVmfBnlfTOElBSwYbsQbycFmFLqpFzDqPnHMzx7OsCBVDiDlLhkTTbROEjcpnSgkpYp5HJVYaFe98b1Qzy2e07uxf3XnEmKn3vUM6V-TJoeVpK3JtshjmGLuYZG7fdL2Spx14seomFW8yMdnfsx-j8ZNRQqOr_TpNBYmQvNuI2ocEbAPWmZ_QZloURINeJCA9GbHIySZtByVaDyO2pQFPRFpUNJ6ee2cjh_p5MKPRf3xkoD3fBsxWpGnRn0Jvm3s_GB2Fa9H7uO_xITofqrkyhxQZ_qOz9jNAgvMPdVboYqauTYP2y7BVmA_KjWePvq5bYpoJBaUDpTmbuZqlPuaDHgJ_E2d6DzFIfWCRtMUP1V9DVqDsc7BIVFGyI8Eiod_rgEHduW5i3Ky811EkKtrkVNJ1q29HaOAfYnInE4FEmiFRE4n-ttJKT_hS2V5TbOoQ22HYx2CzjG735e57yWq3yMWqs46qD_E0hVuGoxzTpIIKaIwy4Yi7LwTw6PqCKYW8wOsCuAwO9cXCA9zA1WYv5lJcey_-bo3fAhp8VzeqWtKTw_3vS3nAr5NRIF82OveVB2zx0tN220WXQCnIW-kNsBAgRg11gfXNvv4_L4lDcaAWFJnHp-VegMkE=w1598-h899-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mOnyJkte641m4vizx-f-2ZNXRDqjDqq_jJ8rKuQIbPC6cmfeEsAhyafqTHWGt2nLm_FqME7a99RmAojpbSHLZY7RLJjSfJDr3vx9yNyKcfytd5zd08RecCL2toQsoE1ifcAZ0VCnNX7s9z3PiwM9n6ifvvB_rajRkjhWqSV7FNDORclT53btlWrD_BUveqUVxXJTJjrFdw2tjHjZOwgVUz6CdrJPslzuRQGlVZrL_yRGmOiPIublNWYT35FqoTdTTxPGUM0aFd3_BmIaWyfIu1NLbtA6DjYnwaVI0yTwtwmqg6g7PLU0bd9Fr6GzXOo8e_o_nYculYBiMYHtL48cv93NZ_jx4zQOZ8FICbp8teAIH4FH0mXPIOl2AtPhTuEaGTAkYnPX5T8-AKBXxEHwRFaz8_EEt7pbhF94Bx4wLERm_rJmfEjIOknoiC6WU5DsB2HgfM4uyJ4NJoSdI3IZ-pif0A6oPhONtRIlRtf_ht-VeQ-kJARdjrnICLAYDtKxv7ogHdz-8mKf492At1KN57lg8Vd23rwBVBujLFvA0Wq-MXGQqhNuiXTbeRN_xpUAQz0DGG6euyxLuwyM_YL1_t5wO0KAJgPkfb_vjH-DMwrjN-xTasIWL7G_6aBzUTHIkc-I3qqraphNmgMRjnvup3kw82apiJrgCMI=w506-h899-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MziIE2eaYNCBtRHI_VeDbr-HKaZWox5veA81oIapUAsDN-u75PRbPUicN67tN8rgsuKHbVPF611tQ7TFL-m_uwm2j3Vn-_x4ZbWStPVGikD7jv6yp7sYRjvkHD2txixaq45sGpz_oiW0lBMkP7X7QX4wLuWD_h6MwZnQhfFz9znyRSGzh9WUrft5dW4RrvGeHX-MaPBABhkfH3RJfJQXDRorYsb6CWiMWcvUK46nZxixfb5kBZrKmzJy6LiG_uUvTvEAV6v65FNh0dIECf6Z8Xee8-mWky_vsbyKZz8KD0sUG0H5e5Xa8BAlHgFumbDpQ6Mp7i83rLZtJlUXcJ5i63bC7g5NbqxUgExC1gHY78XSAh-36lAmqPo2A7hNCgoX4vKKVXzYetURvkUBc9_a6Fm76QcAew1os5n3--kuUxuqi1S8ZLXv39tq1ba_k_vdhWJakM_UMCPSbWBqODvUnR1vLBZQCUswS7OnIk2US_r57xyT3XIUsmMLnBTOFejh0DHLFChL-SmRVEPSP_M2Yt4WvBWEWJeSgrYaxMb5CKAdXlHdBz0y9E2eocNl2AYd3kVBBtE4YofYMQLRjFdClDAIMPTMg46uSKXVMD65qrUdFwPfHoyoab5N9sTiswwi2NxhSynErFJqQqeenrn1CzqdoulmXfkJPyU=w506-h899-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V89is5W8TJfkUWCx0sXwjqZvb4zuCxufkngXilWy7Xa8dToPzJzFE32qQdQtnuWbcOa22xoINsn9mORnJx_VTYyuTjSR712NWTpuPjXqANzcveOA_2L04WbQGxx_nRc2bM3n-NaB2E8eTmsWRHyYL431YGxasXMeMyhzVkfTvpzLsPDdM926y_WHAt1XYUeJLvYLVWQbAZWXsMLWVt-6thOmOad7ICASBTfvn9pM5WSaoMaUd-QLLAZBcotgz26o3Org0dXy0b8oAcSjcvAPkQRIqGNIiA5Vf1bjb781FCgUyg1IZ8pVjkdmeWr4H-fHWIO9hmBhCyXb3UTVVomGuDMxvvUnCCN7G3KTwgWFMZlv5cHjmaAdLaHzU5YuxiFjo8T4MB5u1DmHeF4E9UZTvd58VDTKmtMA-xlc88U2aDZCmqGxcWCgzyQyIUNuTAIKPJz1T90-AxsNMqnQHxt5PQvXqklhr__bI89peG6gMNvUCgeB3ZbkV5swRGeLA6zmSestuYKx6U0HURNaYmz7iIuQw0FG28MHtW6G_WPaOpVvAmARNdGK3A6CIUibpiNDgTZAn6dEz8AQ0D0bqL7jfcfH9Oy6zpveLSkuKJjMb756zzlc6o9e8_odfvPPnB9eDiLqZAnFo4fyxCEdUmmHXqqQMPL0R1VXSnY=w506-h899-no)
You can mix your fine stropping compound with the Tormek honing paste, no problem.
It's your technique rather than the leather wheel - you must be rounding the edge.
Try the following:
Remove the stone wheel.
Hold the side of the blade, edge up, at 3 or 2 o'clock on the honing wheel (instead of 12), about half an inch (1cm) from the edge, stand just above and stare straight down into the gap between the edge and the leather wheel. Bring the edge to the leather slowly until the exact point where the gap disappears, until the edge just barely touches the leather. STOP!
Do a slow pass across the leather wheel.
Do no more than 4 passes alternating sides, often less is all needed.
Wootz,
Do not apologize for sounding mentorish. As an experienced and innovative professional sharpener who has chosen to share his expertise through teaching, I would be disappointed if you did not sound mentorish. Keep up the good work!
Ken
Quote from: wootz on October 16, 2017, 05:30:02 AM
What you say, my friend, I read as an extrapolation of a bench stone experience onto a rotary wheel - the wheel works little differently.
On a bench stone I would also get rid of the burr before moving to a strop, as everyone else, but with the rotary wheel you can't get an even grind all along the edge that is already at about 2 micron apex width in the area adjacent to the burr - try to visualise what's happening to an edge like that when you repeatedly drag it across a rotating wheel which even finely graded has 10-15 micron grains, flipping over and over.
It probably benefits to finish with a very light SINGLE pass on the side with the burr - remnants of the burr will still be there though - but not by "a couple VERY light passes on both sides..."
A raised burr is a breaking point in any sharpening session, because the edge apex next to the burr is at 1-2 micron width, no matter what grit.
It is a very delicate length of steel which is easy to deform by grinding further - stop here, and change to a finer wheel or straight to the leather wheel. Because from this point on, it is too easy to dull the edge apex by too much diligence. You physically can not refine an edge with the burr by continuing on the same grit that has raised that burr, and on a rotating wheel you can only worsen it.
Extrapolating my bench stone experience onto a wheel, I kept raising a burr on one side first, before flipping to the other, till realised all the wrongs this technique brings with it. Steve Bottoroff recommends flipping over with each pass - but do I really have make an authority call to be heard? You grind away more steel off your blade using this approach for exactly the same reason why you can not raise a burr simultaneously all along the edge - where in a straight edge knife, sheepsfoot etc you get a concavity from overgrinding the middle, in all other edges you waste metal from the same overgrinding while raising a burr on one side first.
I've been told I may sound mentorish when I try to put things black-and-white clear, apologies if I do, it's not my intention.
I don't think you sound "mentorish". :) (I actually appreciate direct, "to the point", responses).
I'm not sure about your answer though... mostly 'cause my results seem to differ from yours. I saw the same improvement in my edge on the Tormek, by removing/reducing the burr prior to the honing wheel, that I saw with other methods. The only difference (and maybe this corresponds to what you said ) is that it does only take one or two light passes to do this.... it's not several alternating passes that might occur on a stone. My experience, you can refine an edge on the same grit, by making the passes very light... not worsen it.
Like I suggested earlier, some of this may be subject to interpretation. For example, "raising a burr along the entire edge" doesn't translate for me to... make passes from heel to tip until a burr is raised along the edge, it translates to... work areas as needed until a burr is raised along the entire side. And, I pay attention to the knife... if I have an area that is really "off", then I would work both sides alternating every few passes, until I got things where I wanted. I'm not sure why sharpening to a burr causes more metal removal on a Tormek wheel vs. a stone... maybe it goes back to what I said earlier (don't work the entire side trying to raise a burr, if there is a burr in some areas already). Alternating sides just takes longer to reach a burr on one side (not longer overall), but how it influences what you're saying... I guess I'm not seeing why sharpening one side first vs. alternating, results in "overgrinding".
Quote from: tomerus on October 16, 2017, 01:51:59 PM
So Tormek friends.. a little update and of course some new questions. Hope y`all don`t mind.
As I gain more confidence the bevels get more smoother and better looking overall. That part is going okay and it improves with every knife thankfully.
Now today I got a bit confused. I sharpened a chef knife (cheap) and got it razorsharp. Went on to the next knife. Did all the steps looked beautiful (edge wise) tried it on a piece of paper and it couldn`t cut anything.. not even butter.(note: I sharpened this knife before and made it dull for resharpening) I figured out I used the Angel Master wrongly. Probably went from a steeper angle to a wider angle so I need to focus on the angle master more.
Some other thing that I thought was weird (most likely to my misunderstanding or wrongfully using the machine) I noticed when skipping the honing wheel and went straight for my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife was MUCH sharper. So I think I use the honing wheel wrong perhaps. Used a bit extra oil AFTER I put on the Tormek compound because it looked so dry. Awfull thing to do I read in other topics. So later on I thought wait a minute what if I put a bit of extra fine compound on the honing wheel (same as I use on my leather paddle) results got a bit better but I think I now made all the mistakes one can make with a honing wheel and have to buy a new one. Well.. first stone and honing wheel I offer to the learning process than :)
I think you're edges look great!
Consider using a marker to mark your edges, even if using the AngleMaster... this will quickly tell you if you made a mistake setting the angle with the AngleMaster.
I don't think your honing wheel is ruined... I "over oiled" mine too, and did clean some of it off (I used a waterless non-abrasive hand cleaner), and then just added the honing compound to it, and it works. So it's probably more of a technique issue.
I agree with wootz ideas for honing... you want to be right at the edge. One thing you might try while practicing (in addition to what he said)... when honing, with the wheel on, I'll start with the knife on the honing wheel at an angle where I know the edge isn't contacting, the slowly bring the edge to the wheel (either rotate the knife or move down the circumference)... you can hear and feel when the edge contacts the wheel. Then I'll hone from heel to tip at this position. It's easier to feel where you're at on a strop vs. the honing wheel, that might be why your results differ.
@ Wootz.. thank you for your honing wheel tips> The result is getting better. Still not there but better. I noticed I did not always had the knife straight on the wheel which gives me bad results. Just need some more experience with it I guess.
@cbwx34.. Thanks for the Sharpie Tip. Haven`t sharpened knives much couple of days but I am practicing with the sharpie. So every knife I can find I color the edge and try the find the angle on the Tormek. This is the reason I couldn`t resharpen my kitchen knives after making them dull. I couldn`t reproduce the same angle as the first time I sharpened the knife. So I really need to develop this skill to quickly find/reproduce the original edge bevel. Must admit I find it difficult to do.. Just have to practice more. Will get it down eventually :-)
Quote from: tomerus on October 19, 2017, 11:42:24 AM
@ Wootz.. thank you for your honing wheel tips> The result is getting better. Still not there but better. I noticed I did not always had the knife straight on the wheel which gives me bad results. Just need some more experience with it I guess.
@cbwx34.. Thanks for the Sharpie Tip. Haven`t sharpened knives much couple of days but I am practicing with the sharpie. So every knife I can find I color the edge and try the find the angle on the Tormek. This is the reason I couldn`t resharpen my kitchen knives after making them dull. I couldn`t reproduce the same angle as the first time I sharpened the knife. So I really need to develop this skill to quickly find/reproduce the original edge bevel. Must admit I find it difficult to do.. Just have to practice more. Will get it down eventually :-)
I try and spend as little time as possible on the honing wheel, just my preference. (It's why I try and remove as much burr as possible prior to the honing wheel). The more you hone, the more refined the edge becomes... not always a good thing. I typically only do one or two passes per side.
If you haven't already, you might spend some time on wootz website, to get a better idea of the relationship between the various parts of the setup... in particular his Computer Software page (http://knifegrinders.com.au/05Equipment_scripts.htm). Whether or not you purchase the software (does work well though), it's a good study in the dynamics of setting the edge.
You probably already know this, but keeping things as consistent as possible (how you clamp the knife, set the angle, etc.), makes repeatability much easier.
Mr. cbwx34 uttered, "The more you hone, the more refined the edge becomes... not always a good thing."
Yup. I agree.