Hi all, just joined the forum, could anyone tell me if the jigs fit all models. Bill.
Yes, Bill, they do !
Thanks for that Rich.
Welcome to the forum, Bill.
As Rich said, all jigs fit all models. The reverse is also true; all models fit all jigs. Some judgement should be applied. While an older SuperGrind can be fitted (at extra cost) with the latest stainless EZYlock shaft, universal support, and water trough, or used quite nicely as is, some of the older jigs really are obsolete. The newer square edge jigs are much improved. The newer TT-50 truing tool is, in my opinion, essential. The new SVD-186 gouge is far superior to its predecessor, the SVD-185, which was the state of the art at the time.
If, by chance, you are looking to purchase an older model, pay particular attention to price. Priced right, older Tormeks may represent a lot of tool at a bargain price. As the price approaches the cost of a new unit, I would heavily factor in the value of Tormek's seven year warranty. Please feel free to post questions. You are among friends.
Ken
Thanks for the info Ken. I will be buying a new one, just deciding which one to t4 or t8, hence my question re jigs. Have a number of jigs I have been given which are now.
Sorry it was meant to say the jigs are new.
Unless the lighter weight and smaller size of the T4 are an advantage for you, get the T8.
I definitely agree. One of the wheels, I believe it is the Japanese water stone, isn't available on the T4.
The T8 is a nice machine !
Rich
The Japanese stone is available for the T-4... the SiC Blackstone is not (yet). 😊
While size/weight is a factor, I think "how much" sharpening is an important factor... for example the "continuous motor" on the T-8. And of course budget plays a factor, although the T-4 seems pretty solid for being the less expensive choice, there's advantages to the larger machine.
One point that I would be curious about, that maybe someone can answer that's used both, is the accuracy of the setup between the two... particularly on woodworking tools that seem to require it.
A few thoughts on the T4: The standard grinding wheel supplied with the T4 is the SG-200. The 200 stands for the new diameter, 200mm. The standard grinding wheel for the T8 is the SG-250, with a 250mm diameter. (I believe the SG is for SuperGrind, the manmade stone as opposed to the original single finer grit natural stone.) Tormek also makes the 4000 grit SJ-200 grinding wheel for the T4. I have an SJ-250 wheel for my larger Tormeks, however, I hardly ever use it, and have not purchased the smaller SJ-200.
Tormek does not sell the blackstone (SB-250) in the 200mm size. I would be surprised if it is ever offered.
I do not see any difference in the set up accuracy between the models. Theoretically, the machined zinc top and sleeves of the T4 should be more accurate than the older design on the T7. This same machined zinc top technology is now part of the T8. Frankly, I would not worry about it.
I would also not worry about "continuous duty" with the T4 motor. That is a holdover from the old T3. The T3 housing, being all plastic, would hold in the motor heat, sometimes causing part of the housing to melt. The new zinc top of the T4 acts as a radiator, eliminating the problem. The problem never was the motor itself. I wish Tormek would not continue the motor duty nonsense. Although the T4 motor is technically not continuous duty, the operator (you) will tire long before the motor.
Forget comparing price. When you add in the TT-50 truing tool and the SE-77 not supplied with the T4, the price is essentially equal. What you should consider is the use. If you leave the Tormek in place, as in a larger shop, the T8 is the logical choice. If your use is highly mobile or you do not have a permanent place in your shop, consider the T8.
There is no bad choice;either model is a Tormek. Depending on your use, one or the other may be a better choice.
Incidentally, the smaller diameter and slightly higher motor RPM essentially cancel each other out. The surface feet per minute is almost the same. The larger wheel will last longer than the smaller wheel. It also costs more to replace. To me, that's a wash, also.
In the end, especially for younger users, I would probably lean toward the T8, although not by much.
Ken
Interesting info about the "continuous duty". Thanks.
Any reason why the SiC Blackstone wouldn't make it to the T-4?
Just my personal opinion......
I think Tormek considers the flagship T8 the "professional" (heavy duty) model, and the blackstone the "heavy duty" grinding wheel for harder steels. I see no reason other than marketing preference not to make the blackstone for the T4.
I use a 180 grit CBN wheel with my T4 for heavy grinding. It does a very credible job of reshaping high speed steel turning tools. I have not sharpened planer blades, although I am confident the T4 and CBN would handle the job.
Ken
The comment by cbwx34 is worth noting. I switched from the SG stone to the SB stone as I sharpen a lot of turning tools and most of them are HSS. I also find it works well for the other metals I sharpen.
So, to me, not being able to use the SB stone is a sure reason to use the bigger machine.
Kind regards,
Rich
Good point, Rich. I know the SB-250 works well for people I respect like you and a few others. I have not had that positive experience with it. I suspect operator error, and am hoping that Tormek will do a good video on using it when the new studio is ready this fall.
CB, please remember when reading my thoughts on the T4 that I am 67 and planning eventually to move to smaller senoir quarters. I am hoping to have enough shop space for a simple one Tormek set up, down from three. At present, multiple Tormeks are a real luxury, and I do really like the T8. For a younger person with some space in a shop area, the T8 is a fine choice. I could be quite happy with a venerable SuperGrind, like Rich uses. (We live in the same area, and I have visited him in his shop.) For someone purchasing a first Tormek, I think it makes sense to start with the the latest technology.
You won't go wrong with either choice. You might even decide you "need" both. :)
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on July 27, 2017, 04:08:59 AM
You won't go wrong with either choice. You might even decide you "need" both. :)
Ken
Among my many inimitable sayings is another one appropo to this. If all we ever bought was "needs", then there would be no joy as "wants" is what makes you happy.
Thanks guys for your input and taking the time to reply.Cost not being a factor I will be getting the T8. Bill.
Bill,
Jeff's comment is wise. There should be joy in getting and using a Tormek. For the most part, my life is very simple and "needs" oriented. I do enjoy my "wants" splurges. Photography, Mac and Tormek comprise the majority of my wants. Apple and Tormek put a fun factor in first opening their products. Enjoy the experience.
Be sure to read the first topic posted in Tormek General Questions, the Tips and Techniques topic. I started it to get new owners off to a good start. It has grown much too long. I really need to edit it. In fact, it really should be a video. You can learn much from sharpening a humble Irwin blue chip chisel.
By all means, register your Tormek through the tormek.com website. This establishes your warranty. Once you log in, be sure to watch the videos, especially the T8 video with Alan Holtham. It is very well done, and more in depth than most earlier videos. Registration also documents your serial number. When my first T7 was stolen, I emailed Tormek to get the serial number for the police report. Tormek replied promptly.
Spend some time getting acquainted with your Tormek. Read the handbook. Make notes in it Before you even mount the grinding wheel, become fluent with mounting and dismounting the water trough. The T8 water trough is held in place with a magnet near the bottom. A gentle arcing motion, pulling the bottom away, releases it. The easiest way to learn this is before introducing water and the grinding wheel. This is an easy but necessary skill. Learning it will help your technical fluency; not bothering to learn it will add to your frustration.
Don't lose the plastic shipping sleeve attached to the shaft. You will need it later when you transport your Tormek (grinding wheel removed is the preferred method)
Learn the feel and sound of Tormek grinding. Set it up in good light, especially when learning the Anglemaster. (Good lighting is covered in the handbook, although I stumbled upon it later when I set up my Tormek outside one day.)
Get a turkey baster. These simple kitchen tools are the cat's meow for removing water without spillage. The grocery store variety work fine, however, I wish I had splurged and bought the Lee Valley model. It is expensive, but it looks like a joy to use, and you will use a turkey baster every time you sharpen.
Keep posting and keep learning. Enjoy the journey.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on July 26, 2017, 11:45:19 PM
Forget comparing price. When you add in the TT-50 truing tool and the SE-77 not supplied with the T4, the price is essentially equal.
In that case, portability is the only issue to consider because the SE-77 and especially the TT-50 are essential. And even then, I would carefully consider the portability issue. Moving the machine around the shop is not difficult. If there's a problem just remove the grindstone to reduce the weight. If you need the portability because you're a professional sharpener, I would still choose the T8 because it is heavier duty and therefore more suited to commercial applications. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where the T4 would be an advantage because of its portability.
I've said this before. It is a common marketing scheme to make a scaled-down version of a piece of equipment at a bit more than half the price of the original. I think it works because the buyer doesn't have to rationalize the purchase price in one step. First, become convinced that the lower-priced unit is a worthwhile use of your money. Once you do that you've mentally committed yourself to spending that much money. Now, for step two, all you have to do is justify the smaller amount more needed to purchase the better piece of equipment.
Herman,
I agree with your thoughts, especially the marketing scheme (certainly not unique to any one company or industry. I am old enough to remember the introduction of "compact" cars.) The smaller size Tormek has been made for many years, and directed primarily at the European market. With the introduction of the zinc top on the T4, the smaller unit became much more viable.
The T4 is not only lighter than the T8, it is smaller, more compact. In a shop with enough room for a sharpening station, the T8 is certainly the logical choice. In a smaller shop, where space is at a premium and there is no alloted permanent sharpening station, in my opinion, the more compact T4 may be the logical choice.
Unfortunately, we rarely have an opportunity to compare them side by side in actual use. A typical dealer store will have an open (but not set up to actually be used) T7 sitting on a shelf, If there is a T4, it is usually in an unopened box on a lower shelf. As an aside, the T7 at one local dealer store in a large metropolitan area still had the old one piece leather honing wheel mounted. In this sad state of marketing, the only way I have been able to realistically compare the two sizes is by using them side by side in my shop.
Even at shows, often only the larger size is demonstrated. Seasonal special price reductions, generally including a "free" jig or accessory, are generally limited to the larger size models.
The imp in me would like to go to a dealer store and purchase both a T4 and a T8, informing the dealer that I would give both models a good faith trial, and would be returning the size which did not suit my requirements. I would not really do this; it seems unfair to the dealer. However, it also seems unfair to me for the dealer to expect me to invest in a Tormek without first having both models demonstrated to me in the store and having an in store chance to try both. Would we purchase a car or truck without a test drive?
Having used both sizes, I could be quite happy with either. The T8 is certainly a fine machine, a worthy long term investment. On the other hand, I am not aware of cases of T4 owners trading up.
I no not speak against either model; they are both fine tools. I do advocate fair and full evaluation of all the options.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on July 28, 2017, 02:59:55 PM
On the other hand, I am not aware of cases of T4 owners trading up.
In case you misunderstood me, I wasn't talking about making the purchase of the T4. Just rationalizing the purchase in one's mind. Once that's done, it's much easier to rationalize the additional cost of the T8 than it is to rationalize the full price of the T8.
You make a good point about shop size. I hadn't thought of that. There may be people who just don't have room in their shop for a T8. Again, though, that's hard for me to imagine.
My .02... I think cost and intended use are probably the main factors. Space (mainly storage) would have to be at a premium... since, in use, you still need pretty much the same amount of room to work. If mainly used for knives, (like me), the added jigs are of little value. (I've maintained my stones with an XXC DMT for years, and have been able to keep it true, at least enough for knives... probably not accurate enough for the other uses though). For the home user, cost of the larger stones may not be worth it, since you may never "wear out" even the smaller stone of the T-4. So, lower cost, light use, and type of sharpening (knives) may point to the T-4. And of course the reverse... heavier use, sharpening more than knives, need for the included accessories, etc. point to the T-8. (That's my take anyway).
I bought my T7 in 2009 because my hands hurt after working too much with water stones. Ernie Conover, the teacher and guru I consulted, spoke well of the Tormek, but felt he could achieve similar results using the Tormek without many of the jigs. With the benefit of half a century of extensive sharpening, he certainly has the skill. For the rest of us, the jigs help achieve a higher quality edge quickly and consistently.
You won't regret choosing the T8. Incidentally, all the jigs fit all Tormeks. If you should someday decide that you want to add a compact Tormek for traveling, all your jigs will work.
Enjoy your new Tormek.
Ken