The videos of the new T8 are starting to come in. I am pleased, in that they seem to be more accurate and informed than the T4 reviews. We are still awaiting an Alan Holtham review of the T8 from Tormek. As the new Tormek flagship model, I believe Tormek has devoted much more marketing effort to the T8 than to the T4.
These thoughts represent my opinions, rather than anything official from Tormek.
In my opinion, from a cost standpoint, the T8 represents the best bargain in Tormek's lineup. While my T7 has given me trooper service, I do not believe the present $600 US clearance price represents enough of a discount to bypass the $700 T8. At this point, I think it would be shortsighted for a woodworker to opt for the T7 with the older SE-76 Square Edge jig for such a small savings.
Also, if one compares "apples with apples" with the T8 and T4, The cost of the T8 unequipped like the T4, without the TT-50 Truing Tool and SE-77, the cost difference is minimal.
I have long felt the used Tormek market is generally too overpriced to represent enough of a bargain to pass over the benefits of a new macine with full warranty.
As I have written before, I believe the choice between the larger Tormek models and the T4 should be based on the need or not need for portability. The T7 or T8 are the logical choices when the Tormek is stationary. For the sharpener on the move, the small size and weight of the T4 are very pleasant. For anyone not sharpening planer blades, the T4 is a very adequate machine.
For new purchases, I believe the T8 is the most logical choice. It represents Tormek's latest technology. As a second Tormek, having the option of purchasing only what is needed (as from Advanced Machinery) can be very cost effective. Speaking as someone with three TT-50 Truing Tools, having more than one is not cost effective. Nor is having more than one square edge jig or Anglemaster.
What about the Tormeker with his faithful SuperGrind? Should he buy new? In my opinion, the best Tormek is the one already in your shop. The best is even better if it has been upgraded with a stainless steel EZYlock shaft, microadjust universal support, and the TT-50 truing tool (either the TT-50 or the TT-50U, upgrade unit which reuses your present diamond). The new SE-77 Square Edge jig is nice to have, also. With the exception of the EZYlock shaft, a new T8 can be purchased later without these tools at a reduced price. This combination gives the older Tormek almost all the features of the newest T8, and allows a lower cost option of switching later if desired.
Ken
Your thoughts on the T4, verses the T7 currently, with the discount?
I ask because the T7, comes with the diamond hone, the ability for three stones, and while it ways a bit more, if one is only moving it off a shelf and back (and isn't using the SE-76 jig), the T7 might be a better buy. (doesn't the T4, currently have the 76 jig)
I think I have talked my friends restaurant, into their own machine, and I can see the owner, borrowing some other jig (namely axe), ones in a great while.
Ken, I would add one more thing. If you haven't upgraded from the SVD-185 Gouge Sharpening Jig to the SVD-186, then you simply MUST do that.
Interesting thought, SADW.
I think the real total cost of any Tormek model should include the cost of a TT-50 Truing Tool. I would expand this thought to include any grinder including a means to true and dress the wheel. Jigs can be considered optional, depending on the tools being sharpened. Chances are a restaurant would not need a square edge jig. Any Tormek user will require a truing tool.
This puts the T4 within just over a hundred dollars of the cost of a T7. Given the availibility of the SB grinding wheel only in the 250mm size, I would lean toward the T7 if portability was not an issue. I do not feel there is a wrong choice here, just possibly that one or the other might be a better fit.
The T4 comes with no jigs. Judge it on the individual need for portability. For one restaurant, portability might not be an issue.
Rich, I totally agree with you about the SVD-186. It is the one Tormek product I have reviewed which I would give an unqualified replacement buy to those using the older SVD-185.
Ken
The zinc casting of the Universal Support mounts should not be overlooked when considering the T-8 over the T-7. It may be that this is a superior way to keep the Universal Support rod true and parallel to the axis of the grindstone. This alignment is crucial for without it truing of the grindstone will get you nowhere.
There was a poster who was totally frustrated with the fact that he couldn't get square ends on his chisels and plane irons and I strongly suspect that this alignment issue is the problem. A problem perhaps known to Tormek and fixed with the zinc mounting supports in the T-4 and T-8.
Excellent point, Herman.
The machined cast support sleeves eliminate the possibility of the universal support being out of alignment. That is a major step forward.
Ken
On the T7 the front support is cast zinc screwed to a steel chassis, the back supports are steel fastened to a steel chassis. The new zinc casting should be less expensive to manufacture vs a steel chassis that has to be bent, welded, various parts need to be attached manually and painted. The zinc chassis won't rust vs steel possibly rusting if not cared for. The T8 has a couple of new features but I don't see where it is a giant step over the T7's.
Hi,
The T7 was a great machine and will serve well during many years to come but had some issues we always had to keep an eye on. No problems for the end-customer but for our staff we had a very high standard quality-check. Of course we don't do less effort in quality check with the new T-8, we want them to last for a long, long time.
The T-8 with a casted housing and sleeves inbeded in the housing makes the tolerances better when you need that extra precision.
Zink is sometimes cheaper than steel and vice versa but we use more Zink than steel so the cost is the same, also the cost is the moulding tools, the time spent to build them and design them, adding that to the machine it's more expensive.
The giant step over the T-7 is the precision of the sleeves, the water-tray, the drivewheel in Zink that will have never brake and it comes with the SE-77, which itself is a giant step from the SE-76.
Best,
Stig
Also, on the T8, the water tray seems to be bigger to catch more falling drops, and the lift for the water tray is really cool !
Kind regards,
Rich
I see the Tormek as an evolving product. The original Tormek, powered by an electric drill was remarkable for its day. During that time, I was unaware of the Tormek. I was using a dry grinder and oilstones.
Including a built in motor was a giant step, as was the universal support. Over the years many more steps happened. Although some were substantial, I do not consider most of them in the same giant step catagory as the motor or universal support.
I do not consider the T8 a giant step over the T7. I do consider it a substantial improvement. I do not expect to see the forum unloading their faithful SuperGrinds or T7s. I do believe new purchasers of the T8 to be getting a more advanced machine. Most of us may never notice the improved accuracy. I never had any complaints with the T7, although I can appreciate the advancements in the T8.
I stand by my earlier comment. For anyone purchasing a new Tormek, especially a woodworker, I do not feel the hundred dollar saving for the T7 is enough of a bargain to warrent passing up the advantages of the T8.
Ken
Quote from: Stickan on August 12, 2016, 09:11:43 AMThe giant step over the T-7 is the precision of the sleeves, [...]
Stig, does this precision of the sleeves issue affect the ability to get square ends on chisels and plane irons?
I saw a friend over the weekend who had a long career as a machinist making precision bolts, etc for the Eaton Company. I recalled seeing screws which were zinc coated. He confirmed my belief that the zinc coating improved rust resistance. Zinc would seem practical, offering rust resistance in an environment like the Tormek which really does not require stainless steel, and machining more easily than stainless.
Herman,
On the T-7 we had to manually adjust the sleeves to get them correct. There is always room for human error even if we have strict quality controls.
On the T-8 they are casted which means that the sleeves will get perfect.
Also, the holes are tighter in the sleeves on the T-8 which make the supportbar better aligned every-time you lock it.
But even if this is improved, the "problem" not getting a square tool is the way you mount the tool and press on the tool while sharpening.
Even if the sleeves are 100% aligned and the tool is perfectly mounted in the jig, the pressure you use and where on the chisels back can actually sharpen it out of square.
If so, press on the opposit side the get it square.
The new SE-77 will help this but even the SE-76 is a very good jig when used correctly.
Best,
Stig
Stig,
thank you for your explanation accompanied with the chisel example. I fully agree with you. :)
From my own experience I would add some assumptions concerning the shank of the chisel. The shank should not be twisted and its cross section should be square. Otherwise all our effort to get a perfectly square tool "is vanity and a striving after wind". Modern chisels are usually OK but older or ancient tools are sometimes not. ;)
Jan
These posts about the improved accuracy of cast/machined sleeves remind me of the decision I made in 1976 to purchase a color photographic enlarger. I paid $50 US more to have stabilized voltage included. In hindsight, I do not believe I really needed it, however, having the lamp voltage stabilized eliminated a potential problem.
Having cast/machined sleeves for the universal support eliminates the possibility of the universal support being out of alignment.
Please note that in order to take advantage of this improved accuracy, the grinding wheel must also be kept true. The TT-50 Truing tool should already be our friend.
Ken
Quote from: Stickan on August 16, 2016, 08:56:23 AM
Herman,
On the T-7 we had to manually adjust the sleeves to get them correct. There is always room for human error even if we have strict quality controls.
On the T-8 they are casted which means that the sleeves will get perfect.
Also, the holes are tighter in the sleeves on the T-8 which make the supportbar better aligned every-time you lock it.
But even if this is improved, the "problem" not getting a square tool is the way you mount the tool and press on the tool while sharpening.
Even if the sleeves are 100% aligned and the tool is perfectly mounted in the jig, the pressure you use and where on the chisels back can actually sharpen it out of square.
If so, press on the opposit side the get it square.
The new SE-77 will help this but even the SE-76 is a very good jig when used correctly.
Best,
Stig
Sounds like you should have just quoted Douglas Adams, the author of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series......
"a common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
SADW,
Great quote!!! It made me laugh and makes me think......
Ken
Hi,
I forgot to mention the tools itself can sometimes be tricky. A chisel or a plane blade can be tapered which many times can be hard to see or it can even be crocked after years of use.
Best,
Stig
Be sure to only sharpen tools which are Tormek approved. :)
Actually we live in a world which is rarely square, plumb and level, and where levels, thermometers, and even rules do not always agree. Good judgement is important.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on August 16, 2016, 03:00:30 AM
I saw a friend over the weekend who had a long career as a machinist making precision bolts, etc for the Eaton Company. I recalled seeing screws which were zinc coated. He confirmed my belief that the zinc coating improved rust resistance.
Ken, it's my understanding that most of the steel hardware seen in a home center is coated with zinc. For example, bolts, nuts, gate latches and hinges. If not, they'd rust on the shelves and no one would want to buy them. Also, galvanized steel pipe. In fact, the very term galvanized derives its name from the galvanic action used to adhere the zinc to the steel. In Italy, Galvani was a pioneer in the study of electricity. Building on what he'd done, Volta was able to invent the first battery.
Be careful not to weld galvanized steel unless well ventilated. The high heat make some toxic fumes.
Herman.
Good info. If it wasn't for prople like Galvani and Volta, my career would not have existed (telepnone installer/repair tech). Traditional telephones are powered by very large DC batteries in the switching stations. The sound waves over the carbon transmitter introduces an irregular ac factor, which the receiver converts to sound.
I am very glad to live in a world with zinc.
Rich,
I am not a welder, however, your caveat is good to know.
Ken
Quote from: RichColvin on August 20, 2016, 10:58:57 AM
Be careful not to weld galvanized steel unless well ventilated. The high heat make some toxic fumes.
On the other hand zinc is believed to be an antioxidant that may protect against aging of skin and muscles. Zinc deficiency is associated with major depressive disorder. ;)
Jan
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on August 08, 2016, 04:12:11 PM
I ask because the T7, comes with the diamond hone, the ability for three stones, and while it ways a bit more, if one is only moving it off a shelf and back (and isn't using the SE-76 jig), the T7 might be a better buy. (doesn't the T4, currently have the 76 jig)
SADW,
I just sold a T-7 with this arguments. I have also discounted the T-7 and the price of T-4 (That the client intended to buy at first) is not convincing without the TT-50 and SE-76. I also offered him the SE-77 instead of the SE-76 adding very little to the price. So he too the hole package and some more jigs and accessories.
Currently (in Israel) there is a 15% price difference btw T-7 and T-8. T-4 is 33% less than T-7.
Buy the way, I'm the one that had to discount the T-7 as I got no notice from Tormek about the T-8 coming out and had some in stock.
But for me as a professional? I would definitely buy the T-8. I have daily use of the elevating water trough.
WolfY,
I agree with your comments. As much as I like the T4, the reason to purchase or not purchase it is the size andweight. The cost difference is not substantial for a long term tool. Depending on individual usage, the availability of the SB wheel may be a significant. Also, when moving is infrequest or minimal, lighter weight may not really be a factor.
Both the T4 and T7 are proven performers, however, I agree with you about the convenience of the elevating water trough for professional use, especially, as in the case of the hardware store you mention, for intermittent use. ( A turkey baster can help to level this advantage, although it is not a co plete solution.)
I have often said that there are no wrong choices with Tormek, just some choices which are a better fit.
Ken
I helped my friend decide on the T-7.
The T-4, has advantage of small size, and the ability to use a long lasting SJ stone, with a jig (so you don't round the edges on the leather wheel), for maintenance, and the SG stone for grinding. (mentioned in a carving thread)
However the cost difference, is little currently (and as you mentioned, some have old stock, or maybe demo models that they are swapping) that the T-7 was a better buy, since they can borrow some stuff from me to try.
I asked in a PM if the flap of the AWT-250, would work on the T-8, as it also helps provide a way to pour water in, and spill less. (and since they are the restaurant/knife users and this is something they want to try)
If this were someone starting out, from square zero, then they would have to judge between the T-4 and the T-8. (as of the date of this posting)
But for those of us, having access to more then one machine, the ability to swap parts, to me is kind of self insurance. (known them for so long, we trust each other with blank checks) I will own one machine, but have access to at least two. If I ever bought/needed a third, my T-4 advantages comment, would explain why/what I would get. I think I could design a way (or modify some store bought item) to raise and lower the water tray, if I knew that I needed that).
I agree that someone starting from scratch would be well served beginning with the latest technology, in this case the T8 or T4. However, you are an experienced user with a special situation. I think the T7 makes good sense for you. Listen to your inner voices; you have been around Tormeks for many years.
Keep us posted.
Ken