I recently purchased the SVX-150 (I think thats the right model number) for sharpening scissors. I put the support plate on and adjusted it to the proper angle and mounted the scissors in the holder with the blade as far forward as it's design allowed (it was one of those bright orange sewing shears). However, when I tried to sharpen it, I ran into a problem. The lower (wider) portion of the holder would hit the stone :-[ before the blade. Evidently, this is cockpit error, so any help on what I'm doing wrong ??? would be appreciated. I ended up doing it freehand.
Let's go over a few points to make sure that you did the set up correctly.
Fiskars (the orange handled scissors) are what I demonstrate with all the time, so we obviously have some confusion someplace.
Fiskars (and most scissors for that matter) should be ground at 60 degrees. The TORMEK Owner's Handbook suggests that you measure that angle with the support plate mounted to the Universal Tool Support and the blade clamp resting against the support plate. I find this quite difficult, because the top of the clamps obscure your view of the AngleMaster. You can measure the angle relative to the support plate, but the wedge shape of the blade clamp must be taken into account. The back section of the blade clamp is a 10 degree wedge. If you set the AngleMaster to 70 degrees (instead of 60) you can set the angle relative to the support plate.
I hope this was your problem. If not, we can dig a little deeper.
Quote from: Jeff Farris on January 14, 2004, 04:52:41 PM
Let's go over a few points to make sure that you did the set up correctly.
Fiskars (the orange handled scissors) are what I demonstrate with all the time, so we obviously have some confusion someplace.
Fiskars (and most scissors for that matter) should be ground at 60 degrees. The TORMEK Owner's Handbook suggests that you measure that angle with the support plate mounted to the Universal Tool Support and the blade clamp resting against the support plate. I find this quite difficult, because the top of the clamps obscure your view of the AngleMaster. You can measure the angle relative to the support plate, but the wedge shape of the blade clamp must be taken into account. The back section of the blade clamp is a 10 degree wedge. If you set the AngleMaster to 70 degrees (instead of 60) you can set the angle relative to the support plate.
I hope this was your problem. If not, we can dig a little deeper.
I was having a hard time seeing the angle setter in between the clamps.
This tip and the 10 degree wedge would be very useful to be included in the Tormek manual.
By the way, I'm still wondering why didn't Tormek make the length of the angle setter longer (extend the tip not touching the wheel)?
It would be a lot easier to tell the difference in the angles if the length is extended, within limits.
Joe,
I thought the same thing about lengthening the anglemaster. In fact, I even made redesign sketches. What changed my mind was the first time I used the Tormek in really good (dare I say proper) light. The anglemaster design as is worked fine in good light. I set up my Tormek on a workmate just outside my garage door on the north side of my house. The light was quite bright but soft. The handbook discusses good lighting.
You might try making up your making your own angle template for scissors. It is easy to do, and can be quite accurate. The angle master works on the principle of measuring two points on a chord. (the bottom edge of the adjuster and the bottom of the diameter adjustment) I recently saw photos of the previous anglemaster, the 100. The present design is far better. In the original design, there are two points and an angle. It would be easy to lay out a seventy degree angle from the bottom of a piece of cardboard and hollow out the bottom such that only two points were sticking out. You could make the measuring surface as long as you wish.
Have you watched Jeff Farris' scissors video?
Keep posting.
Ken
Thanks Ken.
I mostly play with it at night but I plan on putting extra lights. I'm sure it will help.
Yes, after posting the earlier message, I saw Jeff's video and he was talking about the same thing as what he wrote.
Ken is right. Good light turns the Tormek into a totally new experience.
I have found that having a magnifier handy is also helpful. I have a lighted magnifier mounted right above my Tormek. I also have a dissecting 40X microscope near by. Both are a big help.
I tried sharpening a pair of cheap scissors with the scissors jig set at 60 degrees.
As can be seen in the picture, the bevel near the pivot has a double bevel, one scissors less than 60 and the other scissors with a double bevel more than 60 degrees.
I have tried putting a little bit more pressure and time on the edge near the pivot to even things out for the one with primary bevel more than 60 degrees but seems like I have to grind off a lot more to get rid of the double bevel. If I grind off too much at the pivot edge, that means I will have to grind off the rest of the edge to make the entire bevel uniform. This will make the scissors narrow and likely to look 'funny'.
First question is, is the double bevel an operator issue or it could be that the knife wasn't uniform to begin with (unlikely?).
Second question is, what are the side effects of double bevel, be it more or less?
Thanks.
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q614/worldtac/scissors_zps47lkbcyv.jpg)
It seems doubtful to me that the scissors were manufactured with an uneven bevel, so I suspect operator error. I'm guessing you created a new bevel on the rest of the blade that differed from the original grind. I find it useful to always inspect a blade before sharpening, so I have a good idea what I'm working on.
Do you use the felt tip (magic) marker trick to set the sharpening angle to the existing bevel angle of the blade? If not, use a marker to cover the bevel or a portion of it, and then turn the wheel by hand with the blade on the wheel. Adjust until the wheel evenly wipes the marker off the bevel.
Unless the area near the center where you did not grind is really dull, I doubt you will notice the difference. Those look like inexpensive scissors anyway, so I doubt you are using them to cut hair, fine silk or some mission critical materials. More likely just paper and stuff around the house.
Scissors can be strange to sharpen, but the Tormek will do a great job at it. I've had pretty strong vibrations start and sharpening is a vibrating, squealing freak show! I thought all the shrieking, squealing and vibrating would mess up the edge but it didn't. It can actually be pretty loud.
Just like with knives, it's a good idea to get a few pairs of cheap scissors and practice a bit. Practice sharpening right up to the center. Happily grind away until they are just stumps! Grind off the edge and then sharpen them again. Put a good nick in the blade and see what it takes to grind it away. Merrily grind a new bevel angle if you want. Play and have at it! After a few of those you'll feel much more proficient and know what to expect. :)
Quote from: grepper on January 27, 2015, 02:02:35 PM
It seems doubtful to me that the scissors were manufactured with an uneven bevel, so I suspect operator error. I'm guessing you created a new bevel on the rest of the blade that differed from the original grind. I find it useful to always inspect a blade before sharpening, so I have a good idea what I'm working on.
QuoteYes, I think it's my error. What puzzles me is why that happens.
Do you use the felt tip (magic) marker trick to set the sharpening angle to the existing bevel angle of the blade? If not, use a marker to cover the bevel or a portion of it, and then turn the wheel by hand with the blade on the wheel. Adjust until the wheel evenly wipes the marker off the bevel.
QuoteNo. I just set it to 60 degrees. Getting the same bevel wasn't a priority. I wanted to get a new nice even bevel.
Unless the area near the center where you did not grind is really dull, I doubt you will notice the difference. Those look like inexpensive scissors anyway, so I doubt you are using them to cut hair, fine silk or some mission critical materials. More likely just paper and stuff around the house.
Scissors can be strange to sharpen, but the Tormek will do a great job at it. I've had pretty strong vibrations start and sharpening is a vibrating, squealing freak show! I thought all the shrieking, squealing and vibrating would mess up the edge but it didn't. It can actually be pretty loud.
Just like with knives, it's a good idea to get a few pairs of cheap scissors and practice a bit. Practice sharpening right up to the center. Happily grind away until they are just stumps! Grind off the edge and then sharpen them again. Put a good nick in the blade and see what it takes to grind it away. Merrily grind a new bevel angle if you want. Play and have at it! After a few of those you'll feel much more proficient and know what to expect. :)
QuoteIndeed. This is fun and frustrating at the same time. Thanks for your encouragement
I get bevels like that a lot. The one on the bottom has no effect because you have the same bevel angle along the entire length of the blade. The top pair of scissors needs additional grinding to make the bevel reach the entire length of the cutting edge. It will take just a few minutes more and won't remove anywhere near as much steel as you seem to think it will. Alternatively, if the scissors cut fine now you could just leave them and fix it the next time they need sharpening.
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on January 27, 2015, 10:07:09 PM
I get bevels like that a lot. The one on the bottom has no effect because you have the same bevel angle along the entire length of the blade. The top pair of scissors needs additional grinding to make the bevel reach the entire length of the cutting edge. It will take just a few minutes more and won't remove anywhere near as much steel as you seem to think it will. Alternatively, if the scissors cut fine now you could just leave them and fix it the next time they need sharpening.
I'll practice more. It's an eyesore to see double bevels. 8)
Some scissors come apart, others don't. (I haven't sharpened any yet, been waiting for garage sale season)
I am wondering if part of the reason for the dual bevel, is getting close to the other side and it either hitting something like the stone (or whatever else it was sharpened on), or the sharpener, trying not to get stuck by it, and then somewhat changing the angle of attack?
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on January 28, 2015, 06:56:14 AM
Some scissors come apart, others don't. (I haven't sharpened any yet, been waiting for garage sale season)
I am wondering if part of the reason for the dual bevel, is getting close to the other side and it either hitting something like the stone (or whatever else it was sharpened on), or the sharpener, trying not to get stuck by it, and then somewhat changing the angle of attack?
You might find some scissors lying around. Try it, it's fun.
I doubt the hitting caused it. I'm been reminding myself to make sure the holder rest against the platform be it hitting or not. Regardless, I'll go find more scissors to try out.
It's simply because you didn't spend enough time grinding on that spot. What you're calling a double bevel appears simply because you are seeing two surfaces, the original and the one you just created.
Scissors don't have the same bevel along their entire length. The Tormek grinds at one angle, so you can't match the existing bevel everywhere. The bevel angle is not critical, anyway. At least not for the scissors a Tormek can sharpen. The much more expensive scissors, like the ones used to cut hair in a salon, might be different. I've never seen anyone recommend they be sharpened on a Tormek, though.
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on January 29, 2015, 04:37:14 AM
Scissors don't have the same bevel along their entire length. The Tormek grinds at one angle, so you can't match the existing bevel everywhere.
Oh, all along, I thought scissors have the same bevel throughout.
Recently I have sharpened my hair-cutting (not thinning) scissors. I set the sharpening angle to the existing edge angle. The edge angle was between 75 and 80 degrees, i.e. slightly beyond the range of the AngleMaster. The scissors jig worked fine, despite some vibrations and squealing. I was not able to sharpen the end of the bevel near the pivot (some 1/8"). The scissors cut fine.
Regards Jan
The bevel angle is usually more blunt near the hinge. On some scissors it's more pronounced than on others. I have seen scissors that don't do this, but most do.
Thank you Herman for your important comment! You are correct. :)
The sharpest part of the scissors edge is called "knife edge" and has an angle approx. 45 degrees. It is followed by the middle part of the edge with some 60 degrees. The final part of the edge near the hinge may approach 90 degrees.
From the mechanical point of view it is fully justified. Scissors, as a typical double-lever, have much larger mechanical advantage near the hinge than near the tip.
In my understanding this concerns mainly high-quality scissors.
Regards Jan
Scissors are some of the most poorly made things that I have ever sharpened. The blades don't have the same angle. The same blade has different angles and most of them are not made with hardened material. Any sharpening will improve them. While the Tormek is not good for removing large amounts of materials, I have removed lots of material from abused scissors without difficulties.
I find sometimes they are more like the old paper cutters. On blade has a 90 degree angle and one blade has more of a cutting angle.
On the other hand, taking an old pair of scissors that has been abused and bringing them back to functional shape, even better than new, is very satisfying. I have taken so much material off of abused scissors that the tip would no longer close. I have to grind the tip down too. :)
Interesting posts. One of my jobs along the way at the telephone company was a cable splicer. The easiest way to spot a splicer in a crowd is to look for a small leather pouch threaded into his belt. The pouch holds a pair of snips (scissors to the rest of the world) and a "blue knife". These knives have a blade about an inch and a half long and,traditionally, a blue handle. ("civilian" versions are now available with orange handles.) The knives are also called skinnin knives. They are used for skinning the outer insulation from cables.
These are often very abused tools. They are well made, but get industrial use. I have several very used ones of both. I enjoy bringing them back to life with my Tormek. I would not quite call them restored. They are sharp again and work well, however, they are far from pristine. They are useful.
I believe one of the satisfactions of working with a Tormek is restoring tools to usefulness.
Ken
Quote from: Rhino on January 31, 2015, 06:03:46 AM
On the other hand, taking an old pair of scissors that has been abused and bringing them back to functional shape, even better than new, is very satisfying. I have taken so much material off of abused scissors that the tip would no longer close. I have to grind the tip down too. :)
Before grinding down the scissors tips, I always consider whether the problem can be solved by grinding down the inside of the finger rings. Some scissors have here a bumper or stopper.
Quote from: Ken S on January 31, 2015, 11:16:08 AM
The easiest way to spot a splicer in a crowd is to look for a small leather pouch threaded into his belt. The pouch holds a pair of snips (scissors to the rest of the world) and a "blue knife".
As a non native speaker I have sometimes to look up the meaning of words. What are the differences between "snips", "shears" and "scissors"? :-\
I got the following answers:
1) Snips are shears used to cut metal.
2) The word "scissor" comes from the Latin word "cisoria" meaning a cutting instrument. The verb "scinder" means to cut or separate. The word appears in Old French between 842-1300 A.D. as "Cisoires," from which the Modern French word "Ciseaux" derives. In late Middle English, about 1400 A.D., there is found reference to "sisours" and "cysowres. "
The word "shears" has a different derivation, originating from the Germanic/Teutonic root "Sker, " which later changed to "Skeresa. " In Old English, the word became "Scear." The word in German is today "Schere. "
Today both words, shear and scissor, are used interchangeably in the English language. One definition is that a scissor is up to 6" in length. Anything longer than 6" is generally considered a shear. Another definition is that even sized fingerings are a scissor and uneven ones a shear.
http://www.chrissystems.com/customer-support-center/grooming-scissors-education.aspx (http://www.chrissystems.com/customer-support-center/grooming-scissors-education.aspx)
English is a very difficult, irregular language.
Be happy you are native speakers. :)
Engineers also use the word shear to describe the direction of the force applied to the material being cut. As in the comparison of shear waves (transverse waves) to pressure waves (longitudinal waves) occurring during an earthquake. Or as in the shear force versus the tensile force applied to a bolt. The shear force is the force you'd apply if you tried to cut the bolt with a pair of shears whereas the tensile force is the force you'd apply to stretch the bolt. Then there is the shear force versus the bending moment applied to a beam under a load.
Good comment, Herman. From the mechanical point of view the scissors cut material, when the shear stress at the point where the blades meet is larger then the shear strength of the material.
:D
Replying to all of the above -- I came here to learn more about sharpening knives and scissors and am amazed at the depth of knowledge many of you have on all things related to tools, cutting, sharpening, etc. I appreciate it all and thank you for taking the time to share it.
The true razor edge eluded me for decades. I've been able to reach only "sorta sharp" on the many handstones I've worn down in trying. My Tormek fixed that; Now I know what it means to truly slice a tomato.
Welcome to the forum, Bob. Glad to have you a board. You are correct. There is a lot of good information posted here. I learn different things quite regularly. Feel free to post questions or information to be added. Glad to hear the Tormek is working well for you.
Many scissor/shear designs combine the cutting action of a knife with the shearing action of scissors. The most straight forward example is the dressmaker "knife-edge" scissor. The thumb or base (lower) blade is sharpened at about 15 deg (75 deg) while the finger blade is sharpened at 45 deg (45) Since a knife sharpened at 22.5 would have a total included angle of 45 deg, this blade is potentially as sharp as a knife, allowing it to cut through thick material up until the final shearing moment. In my practice I leave the thumb blade rough at 120 grit and hone to finger blade to 400 grit or better.
Salon shears are knife or razor sharp on both blades. They shear when being closed but slice cut when used for slide cuts.
In more extreme cases the base blade is corrugated to prevent slipping. Examples are kitchen shears and some metal snips.
An oddity - beauticians and barbers hold their shears opposite the paper cutting/dress making hold, so the base blade is the finger blade, and it is sometimes corrugated.
Steve, thanks for sharing your experience with asymmetrically sharpened scissors blades. :) It is very important to know about it in advance and not be surprised by that during the actual grinding.
Having a concept is especially important when sharpening ancient scissors, where the initial edge angles are no more easy recognizable.
(http://img19.rajce.idnes.cz/d1902/11/11771/11771137_37021e568ec44478b9ce7dc74d286378/images/NUZKY_SOLINGEN_640_DPI.jpg?ver=0)
Tailor's shears made by A. Wingen Jr., Solingen/Germany, about 1910.
Jan
If only those scissors could talk, a lot has happened in your country since 1938.
Jeff, I inherited the shears from my grandmother, who was a dressmaker.
I hope that after the next hundred years the shears will tell my grand-grand-grandchildren how carefully I sharpened them on the great Swedish water cooled grinder.
I wish so much the shears will not have to experience another world war. :)
Jan