Last week Stig travelled from Sweden to Ohio to train me on the new SE-77 Square Edge Jig. Seeing Stig is always a joy; his excitement about the Tormek is contagious. The trip also gave him a chance to see Affinity Tool, the US importer and the major dealers.
In an interview Stig was asked what kinds of tools he sharpens. He responded. "knives.....and chisels." I am just the opposite. Chisels, planes and I go back over five decades. Knives are fairly recent, mostly a result of meeting Steve. For me, the Tormek and SE-76 jig were a welcome relief from oil and water stones and dry grinders, however getting squarely ground edges required some finesse. Adding camber (a slightly convex edge) with plane blades never seemed very precise and was tedious.
The new SE-77 Square Edge Jig changes all of that. The two smaller knobs allow quick and easy squareness adjustment. No longer is it necessary to loosen, adjust and retighten the chisel for perfect dquareness. Camber can be precisely controlled. The SE-77 brings the same level of versatility, precision and repeatability to chisels and plane blades that the SVD-186 brings to gouges. This new jig should appeal to fastidious woodworkers who demand uniform plane blade edges and very square chisels.
The new design also makes it possible to sharpen shorter spokeshave blades with the SE-77.
Holding just the SE-77 in my hands, I found it difficult to understand how the adjustments worked. When I mounted the jig on a universal support, the mechanism made sense.
The jig is made of zink, a real improvement over the aluminum of the older jigs. Zink can be precisely machined and it has a more solid feel.
The knob away from the registration fence is movable from full width to approximately 30 mm or justover an inch. This makes accurate tightening easier with narrower blades. Securing the blades in place is very solid.
To be very critical, I did note that the underside edges of the threaded rings for the adjustment knobs are a bit rough. These are out of the way, and not where they might catch a finger. I actually enjoy putting a little sweat equity into tools, so this doesn't bother me. A quick minute with a small file and all is well.
Just my opinion, I believe this jig could benefit from an equivalent TTS-100 as designed by the forum. While the Anglemaster works very well with longer flat blades like chisels and plane blades, a specially designed TTS-100 like tool would make set up quicker and more accurately repeatable.
From the forum standpoint, Tormek has kindly left us some enjoyable work. The two adjustment knobs, like micrometer screws, are capable of very precise adjustment. Except for a neutral mark, Tormek has not calibrated them. For those of us willing to spend some calibration time, some basic tests could easily be done to determine, for example, how many knob turns would be necessary for a .002" camber for a smooth plane; how many turns would be necessary for a .006" camber for a jointer plane and how much camber is added with the knobs fully backed out. This would add the repeatablilty of the jouge jigs to square edge work. This is a fertile area for the technically inclined on the forum.
With the adjustment knobs in neutral, the jig seems as fast to use as the earlier jigs. As with many Tormek jigs, it offers the versatility of using it for basic chisel and plane blade sharpening or adding finesse. While the earlier square edge jigs remain as good as ever, "good" just got a whole lot better with the new jig. I always ask two questions with new Tormek products: 1) For a new buyer, is the new product substantially better than the older product? 2) For those Tormek users already using the older product, is investing in the new product worthwhile? In my opinion, the answer to both questions is an unhesitating YES.
Stay tuned.
Ken
Thanks for the update. I believe that you mean zinc instead of zink. I could go on about zinc alloys, but won't. I am assuming that the finish of the jig is much better than the past, and that is what impressed you.
I was a locksmith in a former life, and zinc alloys are used extensively in those products. They tend to be quite brittle, but I know that this can be overcome by the makeup of the alloy. I never really though much about the old jigs, how do you know that they were made out of a aluminum? Something that you read, were told, or assumed? I know that I don't know, and I always thought of them as zinc alloy. Perhaps a zinc aluminum alloy? It doesn't really matter. I am obsessing about something that I haven't even seen. Just ignore my ranting.
I am glad that you are impressed with it. Everything sounds good with it. I may have missed it, do we know the price point for it yet? And when it may be available? Or did you get a preproduction version?
Quote from: brettgrant99 on May 02, 2016, 04:21:11 AMI was a locksmith in a former life, and zinc alloys are used extensively in those products.
The Tormek T3 was upgraded to the T4 recently and one of the improvements was a zinc mounting for the universal support.
QuoteI never really though much about the old jigs, how do you know that they were made out of a aluminum? Something that you read, were told, or assumed? I know that I don't know, and I always thought of them as zinc alloy. Perhaps a zinc aluminum alloy?
Perhaps. I also doubt that they are pure aluminum, but like you I don't know for sure.
Love to see a comparison video.
Brett, zink is what zinc becomes after almost fifty years away from school. Let's go with zinc.
I am no metallurgist. I am not certain about the alloys old or new. The new jigs are heavier and the finish is better.
My SE-77 is the production model. They should be available soon. I am not certain about price point. I believe the price will be close to the price of the older jig. Although I did not purchase this jig, in the past I have purchased two Tormeks, almost all of the jigs and accessories, and extras of some at market price. I would certainly have purchased the new SE-77.
Upgrading from the all plastic housing of the T3 to the plastic housing with the zinc upper portion of the T4 made the T4 a much more capable machine. It eliminated the overheating problem. The "motor problem" was actually caused by internal heat not being disapated in the T3. The zinc top acts as a radiator
Ken
Zink is the German name for zinc derived form "zincum" or "zinken" coined by medieval German alchemist Paracelsus.
A bar of zinc, when bent, produces a specific sound described as screaming. It is caused by the crystal twinning in the metal and demonstrated in crystallography lessons.
Jan
P.S.: Zinc is also the primary metal used in American one cent coins. The zinc core is coated with a copper to give the impression of a copper coin. ;)
Thanks for the clarification.
Brett
Quote from: Ken S on May 02, 2016, 12:36:08 PM
Brett, zink is what zinc becomes after almost fifty years away from school. Let's go with zinc.
I am no metallurgist. I am not certain about the alloys old or new. The new jigs are heavier and the finish is better.
My SE-77 is the production model. They should be available soon. I am not certain about price point. I believe the price will be close to the price of the older jig. Although I did not purchase this jig, in the past I have purchased two Tormeks, almost all of the jigs and accessories, and extras of some at market price. I would certainly have purchased the new SE-77.
Upgrading from the all plastic housing of the T3 to the plastic housing with the zinc upper portion of the T4 made the T4 a much more capable machine. It eliminated the overheating problem. The "motor problem" was actually caused by internal heat not being disapated in the T3. The zinc top acts as a radiator
Ken
I finally realized my error. I must have shifted into Swedish. The English word "zinc" is "zink" in Swedish.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on May 02, 2016, 12:36:08 PM
My SE-77 is the production model. They should be available soon. I am not certain about price point.
Advanced Machinery is currently accepting pre-orders for $69.95 US. Shipping in early June.
26 April is the date stamp on the announcement email messages I received, one from Tormek AB, one from Advanced Machinery.
Thanks, Herman. Incidentally, the Advanced Machinery website also lists the older SE-76 for $60. For anyone contemplating the purchase of a square edge jig, the SE-77 is the no brainer choice, even if one needs to wait.
Ken
PS
I discovered one of the announcements from Tormek AB in my spam (junk) file. I hope my effort to change that setting was successful and will more carefully monitor spam in the future.
Ken
I still have and use the older SVH-60 Straight Edge jig. It takes experience and skill to get a square end on a chisel or plane iron. For the work I do, the ends are square enough for me.
Your point is well taken, Herman. You have skill and experience with the Tormek and, I am sure, with sharpening in general.You can make a very keen edge as square as you need. You have also developed a realistic sense of how square you need your chisels to be for the task at hand.
Many newer users have not developed that skill. You worked in the age of the framing hammer. Younger people today live in the edge of the nail gun. I remember one new user who was ready "to bin" (discard) his Tormek because his first day results were not the perfection he expected. I don't recall further posts from him. Our megabit age requires very quick results. I believe the new jig can help produce those results more quickly. That level of perfection may not be necessary or practical, however, people want it.
I have a couple SVH-60 jigs, and would be quite happy using them if they were still the state of the art. I feel the new SE-77 has pushed back the frontier of the state of the art, especially for plane blades. Some of our new users will achieve a high level of skill. Some of them will seem naturally talented. Some will advance less quickly. Any improvement in the Tormek or its jigs which promotes this level of proficiency is, in my opinion, desirable.
Ken
Hi,
Just to clarify regarding material of the jigs and parts on machines. In the past we always used Aluminium and some jigs are still made of Aluminium. The last years we have been using Zinc as it gives us better tolerances among other benefits. The first Zinc jig was the drill-bit holder on the DBS-22. Then we changed the SWM-45 , followed by the top of the T-4, SVS-38, SVD-186 and now also on the SE-77. I don't know how many members on the forum has both versions on any of these but the difference is very noticeable, both in the way they look, weight and performance.
Best,
Stig
Thank you Stig for the overview of jigs where zinc material is used. :)
You are correct, the increase of weight is very noticeable. The density of zinc is circa 7.1 g/cm3 while the density of aluminium is only circa 2.7 g/cm3.
Jan
Stig,
Interesting post. I have both the SVD-185 and SVD-186 gouge jigs. The difference is astounding. The new SVD-186 has a much more solid feel and cleaner machining in addition to the improved operation. I did not know about the redesigned SVM-45 knife jig. Frankly, although the older jig works fine, the casting never impressed my with either of the knife jigs. I thought Tormek would eventually redesign them in zinc. I hope Tormek will notify us of all future changes;we like to know.
With the SVD-186 and the SVS-38 it is easy to certain one is ordering the newest jigs. How can we be certain during the ordering process that we are not inadvertently ordering old stock, especially with the hand tool kits? In a store, we can hold the jig. For a new user, the instruction sheet with the jig should mention zinc. Ordering online would be more difficult.
I also notice that the new SVM will handle smaller angles and has a self locking length adjustment. Are there any other improvemenrs I have missed?
Jan, thanks for posting the density differences. I measured the weight of both gouge jigs on my postal scale. Your information explains the difference much more scientifically.
Ken
The SVM-45 came about 3 years ago with the Zinc cast and improved angles.
The handtool kits gets the upgraded jigs before we send our the jigs itself. So by the time the jigs gets out in stores the Kits has been updated a bit earlier.
Stig
Thanks, Stig. Good information.
Ken
Ken, I have the redesigned SVM-45 Knife jig with the zinc cast and improved angles. :)
I have received it some two years ago as a part of the HTK-706 Hand Tool Kit. My long Knife Jig SVM-140 is still made of aluminium.
The surface of the zinc jig is smooth compared with the granular surface of the aluminium jig. The zinc Knife Jig is heavier than the larger aluminium Long Knife Jig. You simply feel that you are holding a solid tool, a steel like jig. ;)
Jan
Interesting observation, Jan.
My jigs are almost all the older models. The knife jigs work fine, but the finish never wowed me. I have been wanting a second SVM-45 for my kenjig work. This should prove a good opportunity to compare old and new. I presently use the SVM-45 with the SVM-00 Small Knife holder for paring knives; the SVM-100 (now discontinued) with my slicing knife; and the SVM-145 with my chef's knife. All are adjusted to 139 mm to use the same distance between the universal support and the grinding wheel. The use of three jigs means that very little if any adjustment is necessary.
The second SVM-45 would be for the odd paring knife which didn't fit well in the SVM-00. I would make up a second kenjig for this jig set to a calculated shorter distance.
The process continues.
Ken
Ken, thanks for sharing your intentions. Please do not worry about your kenjig concept and the zinc knife jig. I am sure that the redesigned knife jig will work with kenjigs equally well as the old one, possibly allowing slightly smaller edge angle than the old knife jig. :)
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/11/11771/11771137_37021e568ec44478b9ce7dc74d286378/images/KNIVE_JIGS_700DPI.jpg?ver=0)
The surface of the zinc knife jig (left) is smooth compared with the granular surface of the aluminium long knife jig (right).
Jan
Jan,
Your photo clearly shows the difference in the two jigs. (Granted, the self locking length adjustment is not shown, but the aluminum/zinc texture is very clear.)
I am sure you understand my motivation with the whole kenjig project, What piqued my curiosity was the belief that using the Tormek is slow. Most knives are dull instead of deeply nicked. With good technique, the actual grinding time seems acceptable. What seems to be time consuming and stressful is adjusting the jig for the proper bevel angle. My goal is to make a convincing difference in set up time and difficulty.
My personal knife sharpening needs, my own kitchen knives, doesn't require speed or efficiency. The farmers' market efficiency profile joined my original plan of simplifying knife set up for beginners or "infrequent flyers". Meeting Steve added the efficiency factor.
The kenjig process fascinates the amateur tinker in me. When math becomes very practical I become interested.
Ken
Ken, please continue your kenjig work, it is really very useful concept. I use the double ended kenjig in all standard situations. :)
Jan
Thanks, Jan.
I think your double ended idea is a valuable insight. My only reservation with it is that for beginners or busy sharpeners with a large workload, having the double ended feature adds one more decision. I like the idea of having both single and double ended options available and letting our members decide for themselves.
Ken
Ken, your point is well-taken.
Jan
Jan,
One of the many things I like about his forum is the opportunity to be exposed to numerous points of view and grow from the variety of thought.
Ken
Ken, at the bottom of the page http://tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/svm-45-knife-jig/ (http://tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/svm-45-knife-jig/) you can find a sketch comparing the improved angles of the new knife jig cast in zinc with the previous knife jig cast in aluminium (dashed). :)
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/11/11771/11771137_37021e568ec44478b9ce7dc74d286378/images/Zinc_knife_jig_700.jpg?ver=0)
Jan
Jan,
Good find.
I must confess to poor scholarship. Too often I refer to my comfortable well worn older print edition of the handbook which came with my original T7. This edition predates the new knife jig. Sloppy research; I must improve.
Ken
Ken, do not be so hard on yourself! :)
The reason why I have copied the sketch here is that it is not in the handbook but only on the Tormek web site. From there it could be removed any time. Just the comparative style of the sketch may be useful for your kenjig work.
If you acquire the zinc knife jig, I think a good use for the aluminum one may be its modification for thick knifes as described by Wootz. For thick knives sharpening the larger jig angles are usually not a problem because also the edge angle is larger – some 400 or more.
Jan
Excellent thought about modifying the aluminum knife jig, Jan
Ken
Quote from: Jan on May 06, 2016, 09:11:25 AM
If you acquire the zinc knife jig, I think a good use for the aluminum one may be its modification for thick knifes as described by Wootz. For thick knives sharpening the larger jig angles are usually not a problem because also the edge angle is larger – some 400 or more.
Also, a thick knife is bound to be wide, so the little bit of extra metal (dotted line in drawing) will not rub the grindstone, even if the bevel angle is small.
The only time I consider bevel angles to be critical is when I have a valuable knife and I wish to duplicate it so as to remove as little metal as possible.
One thing I discovered is that the cheap paring knives in my kitchen drawer wear out faster for me as a Tormek owner. I find myself sharpening them much more often than I ever did before I owned a Tormek. Some of them are downright skinny and I've had to trim the bolsters to keep up with it.
Ok, does the new knife jig solve the problem of different sharpening angles on thicker bladed knives? For me, the material used to make the jig is irrelevant as long as it does what it is supposed to do. Sure, the zinc allowed a finer finish but what are we really wanting? A beautiful jig or a better jig? I would like a jig that allowed me to hone a thick bladed knife, ie more than 1/8 inch across the spine and have each side of the blade at the edge the same appearance when completed. What I mean is the edge will necessarily be polished wider on one side than the other unless you physically remove the knife and reset it in the old jig for each side when sharpening.
Jeffs55, unfortunately the zinc knife jig does not solve the problem with thick knives. :-\
The term "improved angles" concerns only its ability to sharpen smaller edge angles than the previous knife jig. I am afraid it is not realistic to expect the solution of the thick knife problem's soon, it is a principle problem.
If the knife is thicker than 3 mm (1/8") or thinner than 2 mm the side asymmetry starts to be visible (for people who are aware of it). For thin knives you can compensate it using suitable shims, while for thick knifes only Wootz's solution can resolve the problem. I agree with you that it is annoying.
Jan
Part of my brain is wondering if the switch to zinc is just about cost (cost to make, reuse/recover unused material, defects in production, etc), or if the tighter tolerances, have some other bearing? (for example if Tormek decided to get into the shim game for thinner knives, or if they have some idea of another adapter or replacement piece to make the jig work better with thicker blades. (so the SVS-50 wouldn't be the only multijig)
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on May 07, 2016, 05:46:45 PM
Part of my brain is wondering if the switch to zinc is just about cost (cost to make, reuse/recover unused material, defects in production, etc), or if the tighter tolerances, have some other bearing?
I suspect the two notions are inseparable. It seems to me that if it's easier to machine zinc to tighter tolerances, then it'll be less expensive, too.
Quote from: jeffs55 on May 07, 2016, 06:30:50 AMI would like a jig that allowed me to hone a thick bladed knife, ie more than 1/8 inch across the spine and have each side of the blade at the edge the same appearance when completed.
If you own the scissors jig the platform is easily modified to temporarily accommodate a home made platform that will easily accomplish this. I have posted extensively on this topic. The platform is easily removed so that the scissors jig can be returned to use as a scissors sharpener.
You can make the platform out of wood, plastic, or metal. I've done all three with success. The plastic one is seen in the photograph in my profile.
The jig can be used to sharpen the smallest of pen knives, machetes, and everything in between. Once the jig is set up for a particular bevel angle you can use it sharpen as many knives as you want without any adjustment or re-attachment of the jig.
I agree with Herman. I have the advantage of having seen the new T8, which uses a lot more zinc. I think we have to differentiate between achieving lower cost by lowering the quality and lower cost achieved by improved technology with no decrease or an increase in quality.
My first experience with Tormek's use of zinc was the DBS-22 drill bit jig. At the time I had no knowledge about it being made of zinc. I just knew it seemed like a very well designed and machined product.
I knew beforehand that the new gouge jig, the SVD-186 was made of zinc. It seemed like enough of a major improvement to me to recommend it as a replacement for present SVD-85 users.
Considering the new T8 will sell for $699 US and the former price of the T7 was $665, the use of zinc must have been a very intelligent way to lower production cost without lowering quality.
In my opinion, the Tormek knife jigs are primarily designed for cooking knives, specifically for restaurants. The chef uses his knives extensively day in and day out. His knives must be sharp. The thicker knives are generally hunting knives and frequently used more occasionally. If Tormek actually designed and manufactured a special knife jig for thicker knives, I wonder how much demand there would be for it. Yes, it can be done, and Wootz has modified his knife jig for that purpose. However, we get back into a situation that just because something is possible does not mean it is a wise business choice.
Personally, I think that serious Tormekers should also make one of Herman's jigs. There are situations when Tormek's impressive line up of jigs don't seem ideal. Herman's small knife jig fills one of those gaps nicely.
Ken