Reading about the gridstone or stone grader : Stone Grader SP-650
i find this info, and have read the last part (Made in bold) many times and wonder, how often do i have to do this, and or when do i have to do this, and is it really true that it doesn't wear and tear on the stone if you do it all the time, i've been told to do it every time i sharpen a knife, and is a bit sceptical. Because in my mind it have to be "hard" on the stone to do that, and the stone isn't free you know. So guy and girls. how often do you use the Stone Grader SP-650 and in your experience how hard is it on the stone when using the Stone Grader SP-650
The grading of the grindstone is made by pressing the fine side of the Stone Grader onto the grindstone, which makes it work as a fine grit stone (approx. 1000 grit). When pressing the coarse side onto the grindstone, the smoothened surface is returned to its normal condition (220 grit). This process does not place excessive wear on the grindstone and can be repeated any number of times.
use it frequently and use it hard. It will not denude the grindstone in any measurable way. If you DONT do it the grindstone will glaze over and stop cutting making it impossible to sharpen anything. Don't worry about it, just lean hard on the grader to resurface the stone.
Will i know by touching the stone if it need a good grind? :o
you'll know because your chisel/plane iron etc will stop being ground as the grindstone glazes (stops cutting).
When you have freshly graded the stone with the 220 side of the grader, it should feel slightly rough to the touch. When it is graded to the 1000 grit side, it feels smooth.
Do you always go 220 first and then 1000 grid. Or does that depend on how damaged the edge is, talking about knifes in general. i'm tottally new to this, sharpende like 3 knifes now. so i might be asking really stupid questions.. I do apologizes about that.
don't worry about asking stupid questions....if we didn't ask stupid questions...we'd all be stupid :-)
You grade the stone to whichever cutting strength the job needs. If you're just tickling an epensive knife with no dings, use the 1000 grit and grind away from yourself. If you're sharpening a plane iron with a 1mm ding in it, use the 220 grit and grind towards yourself for a more aggressive cut AND regrade the stone to 220 grit frequently.
Generally speaking I would say almost always grind knives at 1000 grit and away from yourself as you don't want to remove much steel at all.
Hi Jimmy and welcome to the forum. Like others have said, one of the purposes of the stone grader is to refresh the surface of the grindstone. This is necessary because it quickly clogs with particles of steel. You can actually hear and feel it happening when the grindstone has been prepared to the finer 1000 grit state.
In my opinion using the stone grader does put wear on the grindstone, but it's necessary to the process. Trying to save that wear is futile. It'd be like trying to save on brake pad wear by not using your brakes! Brakes are designed to wear, it's part of the engineering that goes into the functioning of the device. The same is true of the Tormek grindstone.
Quote from: Jimmy R Jørgensen on May 14, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
Do you always go 220 first and then 1000 grid. Or does that depend on how damaged the edge is, talking about knifes in general.
It takes a little experience to figure this one out. Certainly you can always start with the coarse grit and finish with the fine. I definitely do that if there are nicks in the cutting edge. On the other hand, if I have a fine piece of steel I'll want to start with the finer 1000 grit. If I do that, and I find that I'm not raising a burr, I'll switch to the coarser 220 grit.
I always keep two rags handy. One for wiping away water from the blade, the other for wiping away honing compound. When I use the rag to wipe away the water I see if the burr on the knife has snagged threads all along it's edge. If it has then I know I've raised a burr and I'm ready to switch to the other side of the knife.
Jimmy,
Welcome to the forum. I think the key words in the quote are "excessive wear". The grindstone is consumable; we expect it to wear out eventually. Using the stone grader cannot help but wear the stone, but very little, much less than using the truing tool.
Ken
Quote from: Rob on May 14, 2015, 06:16:10 PM
Generally speaking I would say almost always grind knives at 1000 grit and away from yourself as you don't want to remove much steel at all.
so to grind with the stone going away from myself i would use the "bar" in the horizontal position or?
That's it :-)
What about the Tormek Slibesten SJ-200 is that a bit overkill for normal kitchen knifes etc?..
In other posts, recently, there has been some discussion about that stone, verses the leather wheel and compound. (very similar grits)
Use of that stone, means skipping the leather wheel, and is a polishing stone, verses a grinding stone (you would have to use it on the knives, frequently, and it won't do chips). Where I saw it recommended, was for use on things like Sushi knives (and I know a Japanese chef and German chef, so I know there are some different needs). I would love one of those stones to try, honestly but I think it is just a want, no where near need (or even worth it for my uses).
"The stone isn't free, you know"
Jimmy, I detect a common beginning situation, "precious grinding wheel syndrome". Hopefully you will soon soon come to see the grindstone as a consumable, just like brakeshoes. Tormek grindstones, like all abrasives, are designed to be consumed. Like brakeshoes, the consumption period is extended.
The worth of the grindstone is the edges sharpened, not in the stone itself.
When the stone wears out, buy another one. The good news is that the stone has a long life, so the cost per edge is low. One pleasant side effect of this cost is the increase of skill.
You refer to the SJ-200. Are you using a T4? If so, you may have to replace the grinding wheel more frequently. However, the cost of a replacement is just over half the cost of a T7 wheel. Keep in mind that many users find that the original wheel will last for the duration. Don't worry; be happy.
Ken
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on May 14, 2015, 06:31:19 PM
In my opinion using the stone grader does put wear on the grindstone, but it's necessary to the process. Trying to save that wear is futile. It'd be like trying to save on brake pad wear by not using your brakes! Brakes are designed to wear, it's part of the engineering that goes into the functioning of the device. The same is true of the Tormek grindstone.
My Dad got many more miles out of brake shoes and/or pads than most people, myself included. It was because he anticipated his stops and would slow down ahead of time. :) He also got more mileage out of tires than most.
However in regard to the Tormek grinding wheel, the only way to save wear and tear is to quit using it! :D
I thought Herman's brake shoe analogy was a cracking good one :-)
Quote from: Rob on May 14, 2015, 06:16:10 PM
Generally speaking I would say almost always grind knives at 1000 grit and away from yourself as you don't want to remove much steel at all.
I almost always grind towards the edge and find that the 1000 grit is usually not enough to sharpen a dull knife blade.
Really?? Have you got those posh Japanese very hard knives or are we talking about just regular ones?
I sharpen the vast majority of knives freehand in the away from position. I've got a set of 5 global knives which I always use the jig and in that case I go topside towards me but I always use 1000 grit for fear of taking too much off (this is the SB wheel by the way). Obviously you cant really freehand with the wheel coming towards you.
Having said that, I also got given a ceramic "steel" (poor choice of words but you know what I mean) for Christmas and that really keeps them keen so I'm not taking much off on the Tormek at all.
These are just regular knives, nothing fancy. Perhaps I wait too long to sharpen.
Grind toward or away? I believe an experienced craftsman has mastered both and uses whichever suits the immediate task better.
Ken
Well i'm going to use it, but if it is overkill to use the grind stone everytime why would i do it?. And that is the question in a nutshell. Is it needed, and how ofte, not IF it is needed . If money is not a object get the knifes sharpende some where else and just pay the man.
Quote from: Jimmy R Jørgensen on May 16, 2015, 04:53:32 PM
If money is not a object get the knifes sharpende some where else and just pay the man.
But then, you might miss out the fun, the challenge and sometimes the frustration :)
Quote from: Jimmy R Jørgensen on May 16, 2015, 04:53:32 PM
Well i'm going to use it, but if it is overkill to use the grind stone everytime why would i do it?. And that is the question in a nutshell. Is it needed, and how ofte, not IF it is needed . If money is not a object get the knifes sharpende some where else and just pay the man.
It is needed. How often, will depend on the tools. A great old post by our old forum admin:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=41.msg0#new
Why, to fracture the stone to the 1000 grit, and clean particulates from it. Example from another post: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=47.0
Good posts, SADW.
Ken
Quote from: Jimmy R Jørgensen on May 16, 2015, 04:53:32 PM
Well i'm going to use it, but if it is overkill to use the grind stone everytime why would i do it?. And that is the question in a nutshell. Is it needed, and how ofte, not IF it is needed .
You use the stone grader to refresh the surface of the grindstone. You do it as often as necessary. When the grindstone is prepared coarse it needs to be refreshed every few minutes or so, depending on how much steel you're removing. It takes practice to tell how often, it's not an exact science, and there is plenty of latitude. The longer you wait to do it the less effective the grinding becomes. When the grindstone is prepared fine it has to be done more often.
Quote from: Rob on May 14, 2015, 06:16:10 PM
Generally speaking I would say almost always grind knives at 1000 grit and away from yourself as you don't want to remove much steel at all.
I'm finding this difficult. the bar on the erhhr.. then thingy on the jig hits the stearingbar , maiking it impossible to sharpen the full length of the blade. Well that is if i understand you correct, and i do it correct.. By sharpening in the direction of the stone, the use of the stearing bar is reversed and the tightening bolt is in the way.. danm i find this hard to explaine.. hope the picture tell the story lol
By the way.. i do have a feeling that is it me doing something wrong, and that i soon will have a AAA HA moment..
(http://i.imgur.com/J5BkbX0.jpg)
try sharpening it topside if using the knife jig (as you are). I should have qualified my response....I rarely use the jig, I freehand it with the wheel running away from me. Using the jig, it's going to work better with the wheel coming towards you in the top position.
Ohhh a freestyler huh.. isn't that pretty tuff to get a nice and even erhh burh (trying to use exprections i'm not all comfatable with lol)
It takes a little bit of practice to get used to holding the knife at a steady angle and in particular as you "turn the corner" towards the tip but to be honest.....it's really not that bad. I would say if you practice it on about 20 knives over a couple of hours you're going to get the right muscle memory quite quickly if you're naturally of an engineering mind set. This stuff really isn't rocket science.
The other thing is it wont give you as uniformly a "pretty" bevel as using the jig....how could it. But if its a regular "jobbing" kitchen knife and it is sharp, personally I don't fuss about whether or not it's going to win a beauty parade! It's function over form for me. Getting a continuous burr along the entire edge really is quite simple once you've got the hang of holding it steady and at the right angle.
I also own a set of global knives which are a little more expensive than the average supermarket tat and they go in the jig on the rare occasion I Tormek them. Most of the time (every use) 4 swipes with a ceramic "steel" keeps them tickled enough to rarely need any expensive gadgetry. They slice tomatoes like there's no tomorrow :-)
Interesting, Rob. You are the second person I have encountered who sharpens knives with the Tormek both handheld and with the SB-250. To see pictures of the mystery handheld sharpener, go to
sharpeningmadeeasy.com and go to the photos tab. :)
Ken
ps He told me he can often sharpen knives with only one pass with the SB-250. So, I have not given up hope for the SB-250........
LOL.......I did (look at the photos) and that technique is EXACTLY how I do mine which is to say 4 fingers spread out to steady the knife along its length. But it's like I said, it really isn't rocket science, I would imagine most level headed people are going to naturally find a holding technique which satisfies the control needed to maintain the bevel angle while being sufficiently flexible to navigate the curve at the tip. A little experimentation and that grip will suggest itself over and over again because it works.
I find this on other forums I frequent, people are so afraid to dump the jig and just try it by hand like in the old days. Somehow we've become increasingly convinced that free handing anything is just out of reach for the amateur. I'm convinced it's because of the veritable onslaught of gadgets, jigs and wotnot by the manufacturers to convince us that we simply cant do anything without parting with a huge amount of cash first.
The younger they are, the more they seem dependant on the idea that a specialist tool is needed to achieve anything. I'd be the first to admit I don't want to go back to the oil stone days because my fingers would just be too sore but with the Tormek, it's so slow and water cooled....it's an absolute gift for free hand grinding. I can even understand to some extent folks not wanting to freehand on a fast speed regular bench grinder...they are more scary for sure. Wood turners will be more confident as they use them all the time but your average weekend warrior trying to make a coffee table, perhaps not. The Tormek though....I think it should be compulsory as a confidence building exercise that for the first 2 hours of its inaugural grinding....freehand only :-)
Perhaps I should write a book.....
It also occurs to me that perhaps part of the reluctance to free hand is the desire to justify the money spent on that expensive piece of equipment. There is a certain amount of guilt associated with free handing when all those indulgent jigs are languishing unused....its just too much to bear.
Once a certain amount of time has passed and the "honeymoon period" has worn off I think you need to give yourself permission to leave the jigs in the drawer just one time and simply go ahead and "try" free handing. Just flirt with it for a while, no commitment, no harm done :-) I certainly wouldn't free hand my Globals but I do my penknives, my secateurs, all my cheapie kitchen knives, a couple of hunting style knives I have lolloping about the garage etc.
Maybe that is the real reason the marketing people sell the T4 without any jigs. Maybe they want new users to first become fluent with handheld sharpening before buying any jigs........
I agree, we have become far too dependent on jigs.
Ken
I hear you.. we do "need" stuff to help us make sure we don't f.. up.. But before i go all hippie and become barefooded knife freehand sharpener.. WHY is it that you use a jig doing you expencive knifes, and not when doing the "cheape" knife.. my logic is saying that even you don't belive in it then?..
Quote from: Jimmy R Jørgensen on May 24, 2015, 01:15:01 PM
By the way.. i do have a feeling that is it me doing something wrong, and that i soon will have a AAA HA moment..
Jimmy, I recommend sharpening with the universal support in the vertical orientation so that the grindstone turns towards the edge. Rob is free-handing, and so he has the grindstone turning away from the edge. But he is an accomplished turner and has developed the skill to hold the blade at the same angle. He doesn't need the jig. I do. When I free-hand I don't get satisfactory results.
Watch the YouTube videos.
Quote from: Jimmy R Jørgensen on May 24, 2015, 11:13:12 PM
I hear you.. we do "need" stuff to help us make sure we don't f.. up.. But before i go all hippie and become barefooded knife freehand sharpener.. WHY is it that you use a jig doing you expencive knifes, and not when doing the "cheape" knife.. my logic is saying that even you don't belive in it then?..
Quality is the simple answer. As I said before, free handing gives "function over form" which means the blade is sharp but the bevel may not look that pretty ie it wont be absolutely uniform....it wont have a single facet on each side because try as I might I'm not that steady. With the Global knives I don't just want sharp, I want pretty too. so I use the jig. To me Global knives are a bit like a Mac is to a PC....they both compute but the Mac is art as well.
Good posts. One of the things I find fascinating about the Tormek is its versatility. It can be used with the grinding wheel moving either toward or away from the tool. This allows the user the option of setting up however seems most appropriate. One way may produce more rapid grinding; another way may produce more control. It is nice to have the choice.
We have other choices. With knives we have the three Tormek jigs. We have Herman's HK-50 (HK-40 for the T4). Or we can freehand with or without the universal support. My personal testing indicates we may also be able to do very rapid touch up sharpening using only the leather honing wheel. (I do this with two rapidly interchanged leather wheels. One is loaded with valve grinding compound for rapid cutting. the other uses the standard Tormek honing compound for a final polish.)
A turner will probably leave the gouge jig set to gently restore his gouge to sharpness following the gouge shape exactly for " touch and turn" sharpening. The turner has the choice of using the same jig to create numerous shapes.
The DBS-22 drill bit jig can be amazingly versatile or consistently reproduce the same shape depending on how the operator chooses to use it.
We can establish basic proficiency with the Tormek. We can also expand our range of skills if we so choose.
Ken
PS Rob, I agree with you comment about the Mac.......at least until they changed the operating system to Yosemite. The hardware is still artful, but it functioned better before Yosemite (explitives deleted by poster).
completely with you on Yosemite Ken :-)
Reminds me of the cartoon Yosemite Sam..... Dagnabbit!
That's exactly the reason I havenot downloaded the latest software update on my T7......
I hear you Rob. I was only trying to be a little funny and to provoke you a bit. not in a bad way.. sorry if you did misunderstand my intentions.
Ofcause there is a big difference in how and where the knife is to be used.. the knife i use to cut open sacks of pellets for the furnace is not a knife that is welcome in the kicthen with the wife's knife ha ha. so yeah.
Love this forum, and the Tormek. Now i just need to become skilled barefooede hippie knife sharpner.. I have made planes to buy monkey for when i hit the road with the hole show.