Hello All,
I just purchased a T-7, set it up, and started to practice and refine my skills. I had run the machine for about 4 hours, having turned it off and on 4 to 6 times. The last time that I turned it on, I had used it for about 30 seconds, then let it run for about 20 minutes, when I heard an audible 'click' and the machine shut off. It would not re-start for about 90 minutes. I assume that it had overheated, and had some sort of internal breaker. Has anyone out there heard of this before? If so, what was the 'fix'?
I have an older 2000, which also has the continuous duty cycle motor (no overload switch), so I will watch this with interest.
I would be more suspect of the on/off switch, being tripped.
I have a 2000 that I have run for 2 hours at a time without it shutting down.
Welcome to the forum, Tyler and Steve. I have wondered if any of the Tormek motors have an over ride cut off switch. I have not read about such a switch on a Tormek. Hopefully Stig will post on this.
I am curious.....not critical, just curious.....What are you sharpening which would involve four hours of continuous motor running? Keep in mind, I'm from the generation which was taught to turn out lights, even though we often spent more in bulb replacement than we saved in kilowatts. A typical chisel resharpening might involve a few minutes, with the motor generally turned off during setup or switching to honing, if using the jig.
Do keep posting.
Ken
I thought that they were rated for 24/7 usage, or at least running. We all know that no one is going to have one under continuous load without an assistant.
Did you buy it used? If so, I guess you could check the obvious like turn it over and make sure the wiring all looks ok and that the motor is not full of crud from the wheel. You will probably have to pull the grindstone to have a good look into the motor.
Is it getting good power? Are you plugging it directly into the wall? Does the power cord look ok? Does the cord get hot?
Does it spin freely and smoothly?
Can you measure the current draw when it's running?
Hi again,
I bought the machine new, and had only ran it this first session. I had the machine for about a week.
First I want to say that I contacted my retailer and Tormek with an email to the problem. My retailer contacted the wholesaler also. It was suggested by the retailer to the wholesaler to send me a FedEx shipping label to send it back. This was backed up by Tormek. The T-7 is on it's way back. I appreciate the response time, but it sounds like it's going to be 3 weeks before I get it back. I bought this machine, plus some others in order to get geared up for commercial sharpening as soon as possible.
Steve, I had this up and running as I practiced my skills/technique on several types of knives and tools, and moving between paper wheels, waterstones, and leather pad strops all the while examining each grind/polish with both a 14x hand lens and a high powered microscope, and keeping notes. I know....a bit overkill, but I'm a semi-retired scientist with a propensity for detail. I had turned it off 4 to 6 times during this 4 hour period, with probably the longest run time being 40 minutes.
Thank you all for your thoughts and advice.
As 'Ahhnold' said..... "I'll be back"
T
Oops, sorry.
I addressed the last para to Steve when it should have been to Ken.
Thanks again.
"all the while examining each grind/polish with both a 14x hand lens and a high powered microscope, and keeping notes. I know....a bit overkill..."
Not overkill here! Other folks including myself have done the same. I found it very informative about what is really happening at the edge. Here's one I sharpened to about 1000 grit and then honed with Tormek compound. The blue line was just so I could photograph the same blade area during various steps in the process.
http://23.archivec.com/1311/1620/127/VbJ41F.png
Tyler,
Since you state you need the Tormek machine for business, I would suggest contacting either your dealer or the agent for your country. Ask them if they can send you another new machine more quickly.
One of the things I enjoy about this forum is the diversity of the members' life experiences. These experiences have pushed back the frontier in some areas of the Tormek. One example of this is Herman's HK 50 (his designation) small knife jig. Herman had his jig functioning before Tormek introduced their small knife jig. The two work differently; a proper sharpening service should have both, as each does slightly different small blades more efficiently.
Stig recently noted another use for Herman's jig ( for head knives). I believe the small platform can be adapted to many new uses.
Ton ("Dutchman") has produced a very well done booklet of triginometry for use with the standard knife jig. I believe Ton's work will produce interesting and more efficient techniques of sharpening knives with the Tormek. This might be of special interest to you with your sharpening business. (higher productivity=higher profits)
There is much fertile ground in this ancient technology for scientific and technical minds. Please keep posting.
Ken
Wow, I have to say that I am always astounded and impressed at the lengths some of you guys go to get great edges. It's almost like the sharpening is a hobby unto itself! My mind doesn't work that way, but I do respect the effort that goes into pursuit of the perfect edge. It's all very informative, but I am just hoping that I will keep my focus on my woodworking and not become obsessed with the sharpening as I am pretty slow at my age and I doubt I have the time for both! Meanwhile I am thankful to learn on the cheap from those of you who take the time to research your results and try new things.
Extract from the manual
"The Motor is Running Hot
The heat developed by a single phase motor is considerable – even when idling when it
actually reaches its highest temperature. Our motors are designed for continuous operation
(except model T-4 which is rated for 30 minutes/hour), and there is no risk of overheating.
The electrical insulations are rated to operate at a temperature up to 135 °C (275 °F) with a
safe margin against overheating.
This means that the surface temperature of the motor can be quite high, approx. 70 °C
(158 °F), which means that you will burn yourself if you touch it. This temperature is normal
and there is no risk of overheating."
It says at idling it actually reaches its highest temperature.
Does this mean the motor is actually under greatest stress when there is no load?
Welcome to the forum Tyler. :)
It is very good to have a scientist here. Sometimes we discuss various physical phenomena relevant to sharpening and we would like to hear more opinions on different issues or even be corrected by those who know more.
An apparently simple question "Why do scissors cut?" may be an example of underlying complexity.
Ken is right in his conclusion concerning sharpening
Quote from: Ken S on February 08, 2015, 08:24:39 AM
There is much fertile ground in this ancient technology for scientific and technical minds.
Regards
Jan
Ken,
here is what I sent to the retailer, wholesaler, and Tormek. I have yet to get a reply:
"Hello again,
As you all know, I had problems with my new T-7 within the first 5 hours of running. I have sent this back to xxxxxxx. In the meantime, I am now going to be delayed at least three weeks on getting my business up and running.
I would like to make a suggestion that you put in place a policy of replacing a T-7 that needs repair within the first 30 days of ownership with another new T-7 as soon as possible, as to not cause this delay in in the future.
I appreciate your timeliness in addressing the problem, but I am now losing possible income....
Thank you,
Tyler xxxxxxxx
Never a Dull Knife and Tool Sharpening
a Division of Good Shepherd Enterprises LLC
Hi Jan,
two things; be careful what you ask for. We all have our opinions and with mine you will get what you pay for! I appreciate the thoughts though.
Ken,
thanks much for the ideas and thoughts also.
Fineline,
I too picked that up in the manual. That was why I was so surprised that it stopped running for a while.
Grepper,
Great pic! I am working on trying the same sort of photography. Got rid of my old film cameras where i used to collect and photograph minerals, but now have a digital and don't yet have the capability of that sort of pic....soon I hope! When I get to that stage, I will be back asking questions on how to 'archive' pics to share with everyone who is interested.
Great forum! Now, on to the Twice As Sharp Scissors machine!
Tylers,
Unless you are otherwise inclined, you don't need to make taking those types of images difficult or expensive. You don't happen to have access to an SEM do you? I just used a USB microscope. They are available from $20 – hundreds, but a $35-$50 one will work just fine. Just Google it. If you have questions, I'd be happy to help.
When you wish, we can help with archiving and posting images. It's easy.
Quote from: Fineline on February 08, 2015, 03:59:00 PM
It says at idling it actually reaches its highest temperature.
Does this mean the motor is actually under greatest stress when there is no load?
The faster the motor spins, the greater the so-called back EMF. Back EMF is a voltage produced by the motor, and it opposes the voltage of the source. Therefore the current in the motor's windings is smaller when the motor is spinning faster. Less current means lower temperature in the windings.
On the other hand, higher rotation speeds mean there is more friction, which means a higher temperature.
So, just because the temperature is higher at high speeds doesn't mean the motor is under less load. It just means more mechanical energy is being converted to thermal energy via friction.
I can see some issues with tylers suggestion about swapping it.
If the retailer did the swap, I would expect they would do it there. If not, then you have the possible issue of the number being registered already (and being able to modify the registry). That leads to some questions about the models such as Ken's stolen one (if someone decides to register it).
Personally, I have never seen a "refurbished" Tormek for sale. Typically they go for less on a refurbished item, and I would have seen one, I thought, in my searches over the years.
A modification of tylers idea would be to send a new unit, sans stone, via mail (if requested and typically this involves a temporary charge to a CC when done with a hard drive), and the old unit gets sent back in that packing. Then it could be swapped back the same way.
I measured the electric current which flows to the T7 induction motor with an ammeter. I have found that the current is more or less independent from the regime of the motor. It means there is more or less no difference in the size of the AC current through the stator of the motor in an idling or an standard honing regime.
Of courese, if you try to stop the wheel, the current will increase.
The electric power transferred to the motor is proportional to the current. Part of the electric energy transferred to the motor is converted to heat. The rate of heat generation determines the temperature of the motor.
I like the way you think Sharpen. I would be happy with any response from either the retailer, wholesaler, or Tormek, but I have not received any response to my email.
Grepper, I no longer have access to an SEM, but I do have a nice Meiji stereo scope, but no mount for a camera...I may try to photo with just a camera and see what I get. Down the list of things to do though.
I have heard that the newest T7 are equipped with motors of the duty type S6-40%. S6 means continuous-operation periodic duty. Duty cycle is usually 10 min. Hence S6-40% means 4 min load and 6 min no–load. S6 should guarantee that there is no temperature rise when the motor is loaded at its rated output.
Quote from: Jan on February 10, 2015, 05:45:55 PM
I have heard that the newest T7 are equipped with motors of the duty type S6-40%. S6 means continuous-operation periodic duty. Duty cycle is usually 10 min. Hence S6-40% means 4 min load and 6 min no–load. S6 should guarantee that there is no temperature rise when the motor is loaded at its rated output.
Heard where? Without any proof, this sounds like either a competitor's rumor, or just gossip, which would go against the advertised (currently) stuff, that Tormek has to legally adhere to:
http://tormek.com/international/en/machine-models/tormek-t-7/
Motor: Industrial single phase, 200 W (input)
230 V, 50 Hz or 115 V, 60 Hz. Continuous duty, Maintenance free.
Silent running, 52 dB. 25,000 hour life
Yes Sharpen, it is an important issue. My good friend informed me about the duty type of T7 motors already in the autumn last year, but I did not care about it too much.
Only recently, during the discussion concerning the overheated Tyler's machine, I looked at the label of my T7 motor and found that it is ATB motor type name SRBF 0,18/4 - B41, equipped with a 4 microFarad capacitor, which is the duty type S6-40%.
Because the type name SRBF 0,18/4 – B41, 220-240 V is not uniquely defining the ATB motor I am attaching photo of the name plate from the motor.
(http://img15.rajce.idnes.cz/d1501/11/11006/11006992_f7b1a11290d1a898dd529ca059e45d98/images/MOTOR_LABEL_1.jpg?ver=0)
So, the advertising is basically true:
S6: Continuous operation with intermittent load
Sequential, identical cycles of running with constant load and running with no load. No rest periods.
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that because it is only 4uF, that capacitor spec is for its run capacitor, not the start capacitor.
Quote from: Jan on February 10, 2015, 05:45:55 PM
I have heard that the newest T7 are equipped with motors of the duty type S6-40%. S6 means continuous-operation periodic duty. Duty cycle is usually 10 min. Hence S6-40% means 4 min load and 6 min no–load. S6 should guarantee that there is no temperature rise when the motor is loaded at its rated output.
Hi Jan,
From your knowledge, is this change for the better or for the worse in terms of durability, reliability or performance?
If it is for the worse, it could be for cost reduction :(
Regardless, there should be a reason for the change but perhaps only Tormek knows.
Hi Grapper,
yes, S6 is continuous duty with no rest period.
The motor data sheet is not free available. We have to ask Tormek to make it available for us.
Hi Fineline,
the Continuous duty S1 is the best rating of a motor. All other duties, called periodic duties S2 – S10, are usually used to economize the size of the machine and yet meet the load demands.
Thanks for your reply, Jan.
Now I'm curious.
What type of motor was it for the older version; S1?
The motor is rated at S6 – 60% duty which is defined in the EN60034-1 standard as 'Continuous-operation periodic duty'. This means a sequence of identical duty cycles, each cycle consisting of a time of operation at constant load and a time of operation at no-load. There is no time at rest and de-energized. Unless otherwise specified, the time for a duty cycle is 10mins.
Periodic duty implies that thermal equilibrium is not reached during the time on load.
As stated the motors are duty rated S6 60%. Therefore for S6 60% the motor can run 6 minutes under load followed by 4 minutes at no-load. I hope this explains things.
We have had the same motor since early 80`s.
Stig
Thank you Stig for your statement and clarification. :)
1) I would like to ask you kindly, to provide this forum with data sheet for the T7 motors. This would enable us to consider some design questions and also to get details concerning temperature classification. Also the capacitor regime may be important, especially during the idle running.
2) My question is, why on the name plate from my T7 motor is indicated duty S6-40%.
Regards
Jan
Jan,
1) Maybe a good idea, however, I don't think many of us thinks about it, if you are not an electrician. So personally, I don´t find it very important. We do give the information that is acquired from us. I will take it up for discussion though.
2) We have been using S6-40% motors since we started using motors in the early 80´s, and still are, the first Tormek models were driven by a drill back when we started in 1973. But I learned today that the S6-60% is a motor we recently started to use, along with S6-40% .
Stig
I believe we have wandered away from the original post. I would state that there are two problems:
1) A soon to open commercial sharpening business which cannot operate without a working Tormek. I am looking at this from a business perspective, not a Tormek perspective. If a business cannot operate without any one product, the solution would seem to be purchasing a second, backup product. If your business were already running, would you close if someone stole your Tormek until you received an insurance settlement?
If you have customers waiting, you need to open. I would telephone your nearest Tormek dealer, and, assuming he had a new unit in stock, drive there and pick it up. You will be up and running today. Incidentally, this strikes me as a very logical situation for adding a T4. After a couple weeks you will again have your industrial strength T7 for the day to day grind. You will also have a solid, but lightweight backup which is ideal for more mobile situations. This is the first situation I have found where the marketing strategy of not having to pay for jigs you might not need makes sense. You already have the jigs. They work with either model.
Comparing three weeks' worth of lost revenue and disgruntled customers against the cost of a second Tormek; I think it's a no brainer.
The second problem is your Tormek itself. At this point, we have no definitive answer as to what the actual problem is. Tormek appears to be standing firmly behind its warranty. I hope the full report will eventually be posted.
As a scientist, you would be rightly skeptical if I told you I could reference a study of new Tormek T7s where there was a 100% satisfaction rate. You might ask the number of samples involved in this group. If I told you the group was all the Tormeks I have purchased (2), you might try to politely laugh. Rightly so.
In this case, we have 100% failure. We also have a sample size of one unit. I might add, with no disrespect, that in addition to a new Tormek unit, we also have a new user. Your posts seem well thought through. I have not detected any obvious "operator error". However, in good faith, we cannot make any judgements at this point.
I have read every post on this forum since August of 2009. Your post is the first I have seen describing this problem. I do believe there is a problem of some sort, however, I cannot believe that it is the result of an ill advised factory choice of motors. If I had read twenty or thirty similar complaints, I would think differently. Many of the forum posts are from members with Tormek units long out of warranty. I remember a couple posts where there was difficulty in starting the motors. (The poster had to spin the wheel to help get the motor running; a result of a worn out starter unit.) Even these posts are quite rare.
Worrying about motor specifications seems like a tempest in a teacup to me. The Tormek motors have proven themselves over the years. Continuous duty? I have one continuous duty motor in my house which really gives continuous duty. The blower motor on my furnace/ac has run continually since the furnace was replaced a year and a half ago. That is continuous duty to me.
Tyler, please keep us posted with your Tormek unit and your sharpening business. Best of luck on this new enterprise.
Ken
When I was first learning, I got a box of a dozen or so knives, scissors, garden tools and anything else I could find around to put an edge on, sat down at the T7 and played with it 4 hours or so. I probably turned it off every so often, but used it most of the time. The biggest pain was that I thought the water trough had to be filled to the full line, so it splashed out a lot of gucky water sludge making a mess, and I had to keep refilling it. I didn't know better, or even consider motor issues.
But even doing that I was probably being a good S6 spec user. You know, sharpen a bit, stop and look at the blade, sharpen, stop to turn the blade, sharpen, have a sip of a beverage, slice up some paper, maybe take the stone grader to the wheel, stop to put a new blade in a jig...
In real use, I don't see the Tormek motor under constant load like, say, a fan or generator motor. It's just not how it's used. At least in my experience a S6 class motor is well suited for the task.
So, duty cycle, thermal issues or whatever, as long as it works I guess I'm not really worried about the motor specs, but it is interesting nonetheless.
Grepper, I always fill the water to max, even though it's pretty obvious that it's not necessary, I just haven't given it a thought. Thanks for bringing that up. I will use a lot less in the future and greatly reduce the overslop and having to fill my shop water bottle as often.
I just fill mine enough to have even water distribution over the wheel. It keeps things a lot less messy. After all, Mr. Safety sez: A tidy shop is a happy shop! :D
Quote from: Ken S on February 12, 2015, 03:51:50 PM
1) A soon to open commercial sharpening business which cannot operate without a working Tormek. I am looking at this from a business perspective, not a Tormek perspective. If a business cannot operate without any one product, the solution would seem to be purchasing a second, backup product. If your business were already running, would you close if someone stole your Tormek until you received an insurance settlement?
The second problem is your Tormek itself. At this point, we have no definitive answer as to what the actual problem is. Tormek appears to be standing firmly behind its warranty. I hope the full report will eventually be posted.
In this case, we have 100% failure. We also have a sample size of one unit. I might add, with no disrespect, that in addition to a new Tormek unit, we also have a new user. Your posts seem well thought through. I have not detected any obvious "operator error". However, in good faith, we cannot make any judgements at this point.
I have read every post on this forum since August of 2009. Your post is the first I have seen describing this problem. I do believe there is a problem of some sort, however, I cannot believe that it is the result of an ill advised factory choice of motors. If I had read twenty or thirty similar complaints, I would think differently. Many of the forum posts are from members with Tormek units long out of warranty. I remember a couple posts where there was difficulty in starting the motors. (The poster had to spin the wheel to help get the motor running; a result of a worn out starter unit.) Even these posts are quite rare.
Tyler, please keep us posted with your Tormek unit and your sharpening business. Best of luck on this new enterprise.
Ken
When your starting out, capital and your equipment are major expenses. For years my friends pizza place operated with two pieces of equipment that without, wouldn't stay open. One is not that large (but expensive), the other isn't something you can move (80 quart mixer). When the mixer goes down, there have been places that would let them use their (I know how and have a truck so I was recruited). The other piece, I watched for, for years, and finally found a bargain on ($2,000.), and bought and had sent there. That saved them twice now (and I haven't paid for a pizza since). Yes I was reimbursed. I understand why one has only one piece starting out, let alone buying two pieces, before you have gone through the learning curve, to find you prefer another method. (not everyone prefers a Tormek, everyone is different)
That said, I couldn't find the post, but remember the teacher who couldn't get the Tormek to sharpen straight? Tormek sent him a known good one while his went back. Why would this be different? Maybe problems don't happen that often (and that would be a good thing), but maybe they should consider some sort of a swap program in the future, so when things do rarely happen, their word of mouth benefit goes up.
I expect we will hear what happens here as well. A bad motor once in a great while is a possibility, but personally, I still think the switch could have tripped, like it is supposed to after a brownout. (the newer switches)
Now motor discussion is a good thing. After all this isn't the first time it has been talked about, just maybe it should have been a different thread:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2297.0 ;)
Also, I keep wondering, if smaller knives might be easier on the narrower stone of the T4.
I had a problem getting my chisels even at first too, but soon found out I had not mounted them perfectly straight in the jig. The skew was very tiny at the jig end, but that angle was greatly magnified out at the tool edge. I now make sure that the side of my chisel shaft is registering properly against the jig edge on both the upper and lower ends.
Quote from: Stickan on February 12, 2015, 03:46:12 PM
Jan,
1) Maybe a good idea, however, I don't think many of us thinks about it, if you are not an electrician. So personally, I don´t find it very important. We do give the information that is acquired from us. I will take it up for discussion though.
2) We have been using S6-40% motors since we started using motors in the early 80´s, and still are, the first Tormek models were driven by a drill back when we started in 1973. But I learned today that the S6-60% is a motor we recently started to use, along with S6-40% .
Stig
Stig, thank you for your prompt response and explanations. :)
If you think there is no general interest in the motor data sheet, please send it to my email address jan.svancara.cz@gmail.com. Thank you.
Jan
SADW, I started the other "motor post". There was no problem motor involved. I was just reacting to an apparently correct motor statistic in an online video review of the T4. The review contained other errors, so I questioned the 10,000 and 25,000 hour statistics. Stig confirmed them for me. Most of us will never even approach 10,000 hours running a Tormek, let alone 25,000.
I understand a new business not having an overabundance of capital. However, if $400, the cost of a T4 back up unit, would cause the business to fail, the business has serious undercapitalization problems. My point was that having a backup for a piece of equipment, the lack of which would cause the business not to open, is a very good way to reduce risk.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on February 12, 2015, 03:51:50 PM
Worrying about motor specifications seems like a tempest in a teacup to me. The Tormek motors have proven themselves over the years.
Ken, I understand your point. :)
The motor duty issue discussed here, can be considered from ethical, technical and economical points of view.
1) Ethical aspect. It is not fair when on T7 front label we can read "Continuous duty S1" and in fact the motor duty is S6-60%. This should be corrected. May be it is a non-intentional omission.
2) Technical aspect. Operating motors in compliance with specifications is common good practice. It is beneficial for both, the manufacturer and the user, because the average life expectancy of the motor is larger.
3) Economical aspect. I do not know what is the price difference between a motor of the duty type S1 and a motor duty type S6-60% with the same input power. The S1 motor is usually a little bit bigger to enable continuous heat dissipation. I do not think the price is significantly different.
Regards
Jan
Hi Jan,
I agree with you.
If Tormek says S1 motor then the right thing to do is to have a S1 motor. However, I couldn't find where did Tormek says S1 motor. Could you indicate where it says S1 motor?
By the way, I search the web and ATB motor is based in Austria and that is for the S4.
Could you share the data sheet once you have it.
Thanks.
I think we need to step back and look at the big picture. I don't have a strong opinion either way on the motor situation. All I will say is that my Tormeks have worked flawlessly.
As has been stated before, we are guests on this forum. The Tormek Company in Sweden pays the freight for this website. It costs us nothing, and it is ad free, something refreshingly rare.
I have seen and made posts which have been critical of Tormek. This motor issue could be embarrassing and possibly costly for Tormek. The company management could very easily pull the forum.
I have probably gained as much as anyone from this forum. It has been an excellent source of knowledge for me. The same opportunity is available to any member, free of charge. Even the members who choose to only read and not post can learn much. I would hate to see this wonderful opportunity be jeopardized by very critical posts which, in reality, will not accomplish anything of any real value.
I suggest we move on and do not post any more on this issue.
Ken
Ken, Seriously? I think by your post, we need a head in the sand icon. :o :-X
Your post makes me think that a company must run and hide and try to cover things up, rather then step up and say, "whoops, we didn't realize, and we screwed up".
Fineline you asked and I looked at mine today, my 2000 says S1 on the label on the top, and on the motor it says S6. I think mine is an early tilt top verses the square frame, so I would expect that is a mistake that was never noticed.
I don't doubt that this will be brought up over there and corrected.
Don't you long term posters, think that Tormek gains from this feedback, as well as us posters?
Thanks Rob.
I don't mean to press on this issue but I think some messages, including mine, could have been read as an 'attack' on Tormek.
That isn't the intent and I am glad I learn some new things about S1-S6 motors.
OTOH, this exchange hopefully gives Tormek some insights to how or what the user thinks. This kind of information is 'priceless' taken in the right context, be it correcting a printing error or for product improvement.
By the way, does anybody knows what kind of motor is used in the T4? Just kidding .... it's a Friday. :)
Hi,
I must say we have some dedicated members on this forum :-)
If we go to the facts, one machine has a problem, and started this tread as "T-7 overheated" but we still don´t know if that's the problem as we have not got the motor to Sweden yet.
We are as interested as you because this is a very unusual situation , in fact, for my 5 years at Tormek, this is the first motor that is reported as a overheating.
It does say S1 on the machine-sign and have done so for many years, I will address this to the technicians.
We will not share any motor data sheet on this forum or to send it to someone. I don´t think it´s normal for many companies to share every detail.
We regularly test our motors very hard, continuous full power for up to 8 hours during several days, without any problem.
When we have tested the actual motor, I will report what we found was the cause of it. This will take 2-3 weeks.
If anyone has any further questions or worries, please send them to support@tormek.se and they will be answered from us within 24H weekdays.
Quote from: Ken S on February 13, 2015, 03:10:20 AM
I think we need to step back and look at the big picture. I don't have a strong opinion either way on the motor situation. All I will say is that my Tormeks have worked flawlessly.
As has been stated before, we are guests on this forum. The Tormek Company in Sweden pays the freight for this website. It costs us nothing, and it is ad free, something refreshingly rare.
I have seen and made posts which have been critical of Tormek. This motor issue could be embarrassing and possibly costly for Tormek. The company management could very easily pull the forum.
I have probably gained as much as anyone from this forum. It has been an excellent source of knowledge for me. The same opportunity is available to any member, free of charge. Even the members who choose to only read and not post can learn much. I would hate to see this wonderful opportunity be jeopardized by very critical posts which, in reality, will not accomplish anything of any real value.
I suggest we move on and do not post any more on this issue.
Ken
Ken, I understand your point. :)
Please do not be afraid of Tormek. Nobody here will harm Tormek. By admitting this discussion on its own forum, Tormek will acquire valuable feedback which is easy convertible in future products improvements.
It may sound old fashioned, but nowadays moral concepts, I have mentioned, play an important role in business. Companies adopt ethical codes as pragmatic necessities for successful running an organization. The ethical code includes details of how the company is going to implement its mission and visions. Code of ethics is also good guidance to staff how to achieve the goals.
So once again Ken, do not be worried about Tormek.
It is win-win situation for Tormek and the forum. Both sides may benefit from the discussion at this forum. :)
Regards
Jan
Hello Everyone,
Thank you all for a great discussion and great ideas.
As to 'operator error" - that is certainly still a possiblity, but I did what I could to minimize/eliminate it. I plugged in other equipment to the same receptacle as the 7 and the three other tools worked fine. I tried the Tormek on two other power receptacles, stil nothing.
I did my research and Tormek was my choice because of it's flexibility, durability, and reputation. I would make that same choice again. As to buying a back-up T-4, this is a good idea in retrospect. Who woulda thought?? I can afford one, but I really didn't think that it would be necessary. I am now re-thinking this idea.
I was, and full well know, that I need to practice/refine my skills/speed before I start taking in other people's knives for renumeration. Right now, all my neighbors and friends are reaping the benefits. I have been sharpening knives, archery broadheads, axes, etc., etc. for over 40 years, mostly for barter, but this was the first serious power tool other than a Baldor buffer. I can make most things razor sharp, but not quickly. That has to change. My basic knowledge of sharpening devices is good, and my dexterity is good as I tie fishing flies also. But, the power sharpening tools is a new, yet unlearned skill. Having the T-7 down stopped this practice.
My question to you folks is this: Is the T-4 similar enough to the T-7 that I would have minimal learning curve on this 'back-up' machine?
As soon as I am confidant enough in my skills and speed, I will start marketing my services in a serious way. I have all business licenses in place, business cards, price lists, invoice sheets, several power tools (minus the T-7), stones, wheels, buffers, and hand tools in my shop. I am doing what I can to get things going, but the T-7 was the mainstay. Anyone out there see any i's or t's not taken care of?
As soon as I am comfortable with enough business, I will be buying some sort of van/truck to set up so that I will be a mobile business. Suggestions/ideas on this would be much appreciated also. I've ruled out the Mercedes Sprinter - overkill; Ford Transit, Nissan NV cargo van, and used U-haul trucks are in the running. Other ideas?
Thanks to all once again.
Tyler,
I am pleased to find you holding up well. Having used both the T7 and T4, I was initially surprised with how similar they are. What really surprised me was how similar setup is with the knife jigs. I saw no mention of differences in the handbook. Tormek very cleverly moved the distance of the sleeves equivalent to the differences in the grinding wheel radaii. In most operations, they two models are essentially the same. The main difference I notice is when moving the T4.
That's why I have written that my main factor in deciding which to purchase would be the location(s) of the work. I believe a T4 would be an excellent backup unit for your sharpening business. It can function fully like a T7 for general sharpening, and, for situations where it is more convenient to work on location, like a church kitchen, it is much easier to transport. You already have the jigs; they are fully interchangeable.
With a mobile van workshop, the 120 watt motor might actually be an advantage if you are using a low wattage convertor.
After using both the T7 and T4, I have changed my idea of wanting a second T7. i am leaning more toward having both a T7 and a T4, using each for their own strengths. One project I am developing is sharpening Chinese cleavers using the T7 with the grinding wheel from the T4. We had some posts advocating a taller universal support bar. Using the T7 with the 200 mm wheel should fill the bill.
Please keep us posted. At this point, we are rally on another topic. I would suggest beginning a new topic for the benefit of future searchers.
You might also want to email Steve Bottorff in Ohio. His website and book is "Sharpening Made Easy". Steve is recently retired and no longer teaching, however, his site is worth reading, and he might give you some advice based on a lot of experience.
Ken
Thanks Ken.
I have pretty much memorized Steve Bottorf's website and book. I have also bought most of my power equipment from him. His service has been excellent.
I will keep you posted....
T
Here's some ideas:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=mobile+sharpening+service+trucks&lr=&as_qdr=all&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qDHeVPzbL4OxyAT0nIKAAQ&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=973&bih=558#imgdii=_
http://whataknifeguy.com/aboutus.html
Yes, keep us posted!
Tyler,
One of my regrets was not studying with Steve. I bought his book from his website and always wanted to take his practical weekend class. I lived only about an hour from him.
Steve is actually a member of this forum. I hope now that he is retired he will post more. He has much practical knowledge to share.
Ken
A few of you wanted me to keep you up to date with my overheating? troubles with the new T-7. I have not forgotten, I just have not heard a thing from the wholesaler. They received the returned machine on 10 Feb. I did receive an email from Stig that he had requested that they send me a new machine ASAP.....nothing yet.
It was suggested that I should buy a T-4 for backup. Really? I thought that this T-7 would be enough, as the reputation is that they run for years.
Will keep you posted....
Bummer! I'd contact the wholesaler and Tormek and get to the bottom of what's going on. A week is a long time to at least hear from somebody. Get to the bottom of the problem. Sad you should have to chase it down.
When I had a bad grinding wheel, the service could not have been better.
Hi,
We are working on it right now.
Stig
Quote from: tylers on February 18, 2015, 06:42:45 AM
It was suggested that I should buy a T-4 for backup. Really?
Not! First, it's not equivalent in the sense that it can't do what the T-7 can. If it could there'd be no need for the T-7. Second, the T-7 is a workhorse. If you need a second machine to back it up you're in an environment where it's getting enough use to justify the purchase of a second T-7.
Update to all interested.
Stig of Tormek came through and held to his word.
A new machine was delivered to me yesterday pm.
Thanks to all of you for your concern, and a BIG thank you to Stig.
T
Hurrah, Tyler!
Good job, Stig!
Ken
Quote from: tylers on February 19, 2015, 07:38:15 PM
Update to all interested.
Stig of Tormek came through and held to his word.
A new machine was delivered to me yesterday pm.
Thanks to all of you for your concern, and a BIG thank you to Stig.
T
But I am guessing that we will never know the cause of the problem. Did Tormek include anything written that said something to the effect of, "we have examined the machine in question thoroughly and although we can find nothing wrong with it, we are sending you a new machine. Our actions concerning this issue and the remedy we have offered shall in no way construe that we admit any defects nor will this be considered a precedent for any future issues of this nature." Or something to that effect. Just call me cynical.
Jeff55, You are a bit cynical ;-)
The machine has not arrived to us in Sweden yet.
Stig
Hi Stig,
Is it ok to share what happened?
Just curious.
FL
Hi,
We got the machine about 2 weeks ago and tested the machine for several hours with 122 Volt, a higher voltage, to see how warm we could get it and if it stopped.
The result was about 57 degree celsius/ 135 degree Fahrenheit witch is within tolerance and we got a lower temp when we measured on the motor housing. It worked all the time.
We can´t find anything wrong with it but it could be the switch since a click was noticed. The motor itself can´t give a click sound but the switch can.
The test did not show why it stopped. Even the switch works as it should.
We can't do much more than to test it and the customer have a new machine that works fine.
Stig
Fineline, have you checked the voltage at the outlet where you plug in your Tormek? See what the voltage is, especially under load. It could be that there is an issue with the wiring in your house, or with the voltage being supplied to your house. I would check simple things first like the outlet itself and the circuit breaker itself. Many times these parts wear out under heavy use and are just fine until you use them for heavy duty service. They are easy and inexpensive to replace.
Thank you Stig for your report!
I have used the time when the original Tylers machine was tested in Sweden, to understand why an idle running motor may be warmer then a motor under full load. I hope to understand it now, and I will try to explain here why is it so.
Single-phase AC induction motors are known by the names of the starting method used. In my opinion our motors are Permanent-Split Capacitor motors (PSC). These motors have run-type capacitor, which is permanently in series with the auxiliary winding. In the figure bellow there is a winding scheme for a PSC motor.
(http://img15.rajce.idnes.cz/d1501/11/11006/11006992_f7b1a11290d1a898dd529ca059e45d98/images/Motor_schema_1_600pix_1.jpg?ver=0)
It is common misconception that a PSC motor running below its full load will run cooler and more efficiently. On the contrary, single-phase motors may become very warm at small loads or when run idle.
Why is it so? The efficiency of an idle running PSC motor drops to zero, and hence all the consumed electric power is converted to heat power. Whereas, near full load rating, the motor efficiency is greatest. The consumed power is partitioned into shaft power and the heat power. It may happen that an idle running motor generates more heat than the same motor running at full load.
In the figure bellow there is power triangle relating apparent power to real (consumed) power for a small PSC motor.
(http://img15.rajce.idnes.cz/d1501/11/11006/11006992_f7b1a11290d1a898dd529ca059e45d98/images/Power_triangle_600pix_1.jpg?ver=0)
The figure shows, that the heat power (upper red bar) produced by an idle running motor is larger than the heat power (lower red bar) produced by a full loaded motor.
During our grinding and honing the motor load is only some 5% of full load.
Jan
Having worked as a telephone troubleshooter for thirty five years, Stig's explanation of Tormek's testing and findings sounds quite reasonable to me. Sometimes trouble just does not show any symptoms. It sounds like the Tormek people ran the proper tests. The switch sounds like a good possibility. Changing out the switch would have been an acceptable fix. However, Tormek chose to replace the entire unit even before testing the original unit. I call that exceptional service.
Herman,
The motor in the T7 is rated at 200 watts input. That's less than two amps. (Starting current will be higher with any motor.) Standard residential circuits are either fifteen or twenty amp capacity. While it is entirely possible that there may be a house wiring problem, a Tormek load would not stress the circuit.
Ken
Quote from: Stickan on March 18, 2015, 08:05:44 PM
Hi,
We got the machine about 2 weeks ago and tested the machine for several hours with 122 Volt, a higher current, to see how warm we could get it and if it stopped.
The result was about 57 degree celsius/ 135 degree Fahrenheit witch is within tolerance and we got a lower temp when we measured on the motor housing. It worked all the time.
We can´t find anything wrong with it but it could be the switch since a click was noticed. The motor itself can´t give a click sound but the switch can.
The test did not show why it stopped. Even the switch works as it should.
We can't do much more than to test it and the customer have a new machine that works fine.
Stig
Stig,
What a coincidence. The unit I have also has this 'click' when I press to turn on the machine. I'm wondering if it might be some form of arcing or voltage spike. Anyway, if you have further findings on the switch, please share with us.
Thanks,
fl
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on March 18, 2015, 08:37:48 PM
Fineline, have you checked the voltage at the outlet where you plug in your Tormek? See what the voltage is, especially under load. It could be that there is an issue with the wiring in your house, or with the voltage being supplied to your house. I would check simple things first like the outlet itself and the circuit breaker itself. Many times these parts wear out under heavy use and are just fine until you use them for heavy duty service. They are easy and inexpensive to replace.
Hi Herman,
I don't have a overheating problem with my machine. OP is Tyler.
fl
Quote from: Jan on March 18, 2015, 08:46:52 PM
Thank you Stig for your report!
I have used the time when the original Tylers machine was tested in Sweden, to understand why an idle running motor may be warmer then a motor under full load. I hope to understand it now, and I will try to explain here why is it so.
Single-phase AC induction motors are known by the names of the starting method used. In my opinion our motors are Permanent-Split Capacitor motors (PSC). These motors have run-type capacitor, which is permanently in series with the auxiliary winding. In the figure bellow there is a winding scheme for a PSC motor.
(http://img15.rajce.idnes.cz/d1501/11/11006/11006992_f7b1a11290d1a898dd529ca059e45d98/images/Motor_schema_1_600pix_1.jpg?ver=0)
It is common misconception that a PSC motor running below its full load will run cooler and more efficiently. On the contrary, single-phase motors may become very warm at small loads or when run idle.
Why is it so? The efficiency of an idle running PSC motor drops to zero, and hence all the consumed electric power is converted to heat power. Whereas, near full load rating, the motor efficiency is greatest. The consumed power is partitioned into shaft power and the heat power. It may happen that an idle running motor generates more heat than the same motor running at full load.
In the figure bellow there is power triangle relating apparent power to real (consumed) power for a small PSC motor.
(http://img15.rajce.idnes.cz/d1501/11/11006/11006992_f7b1a11290d1a898dd529ca059e45d98/images/Power_triangle_600pix_1.jpg?ver=0)
The figure shows, that the heat power (upper red bar) produced by an idle running motor is larger than the heat power (lower red bar) produced by a full loaded motor.
During our grinding and honing the motor load is only some 5% of full load.
Jan
Thanks for sharing Jan.
I remember reading in the manual that no load generates more heat or something to that effect.
Good post anyway.
fl
Thanks, FL. Yes, my explanation confirms the statement in the Tormek Manual paragraph "The Motor is Running Hot". The sentence reads: "The heat developed by a single phase motor is considerable – even when idling when it actually reaches its highest temperature".
I was a troubleshooter for the telephone company for thirty five years. That thought process has become ingrained in me. I think Tormek in Sweden ran very logical tests. In the real world trouble often does not exhibit symptoms. The noisy telephone line may be quiet and show no measurable fault when the technician tests it. In this case, Sweden tested no trouble with the motor or switch, but suspected a bad switch. Replacing the switch would, in my opinion, have been an adequate resolution. Instead, Tormek sent the customer another brand new unit completely at Tormek's expense. And, the new unit was sent to the customer even before Tormek examined the problem unit. I consider this outstanding service.
Ken
I take back my comment that said we would never hear about this again and implied that Tormek would simply bury it. There is no higher compliment than one from me as you have really got to do good. I also apologize as I am not to proud to say that I was wrong.
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on March 18, 2015, 08:37:48 PM
Fineline, have you checked the voltage at the outlet where you plug in your Tormek? See what the voltage is, especially under load. It could be that there is an issue with the wiring in your house, or with the voltage being supplied to your house. I would check simple things first like the outlet itself and the circuit breaker itself. Many times these parts wear out under heavy use and are just fine until you use them for heavy duty service. They are easy and inexpensive to replace.
Good advice.
It could also be that the guy was running his Tormek on an already overloaded circuit and killed it that way.
If the OP had invested in a cheap 'Kill-A-Watt' meter he could have very quickly ruled out any issues related to his power supply. Most guys never think to check until AFTER they have killed their motors.
I have often run my Tormeks, 2000s and T-7s, for 4 hours straight on hot summer days with no problems.
I am thinking you have a defective motor and/or sensor and would ask the distributor to replace it.