Kenny's scenario is an example of situation where a Tormek owner really needs to spend some time with someone in "tech support". Half a day with someone with factory training and/or a lot of Tormek experience would save the day. Does Tormek have such a network of trained people? If so, how would a customer get in touch with the people in charge of the program who could set up an appointment for him?
In this particular case, waiting until Sweden is through holiday August 4 is not an answer. Who would one call for real help? By real help I don't mean a clerk who can look up SKU numbers and sympathize, but someone who knows the Tormek when it is working well and when either the Tormek or the customer needs some tweaking.
The forum can help through many things, but sometimes a person needs to have an expert looking over his shoulder.
Ken
What a cracking point Ken.
Look at the regular contributors to the forum, certainly fro the UK and USA, most of who I would suggest are retired from their main careers, and could well be the basis of a formal network, should Tormek wish to invest a bit (effort/finance/facility/promotion).
Stig has suggested that users with major problems like Kenny's can be helped through digital means for example using facetime or maybe even Skype for direct video contact. Regrettably the timing couldn't be worse given the Scandinavian holiday ritual each year.
Can I suggest that one of the US based forum members hooks up a Skype call with Kenny and helps the poor bloke out before he has a heart attack. Am I to assume this massive qty of tools is for a school or college department in recess or some such, hence the need to get loads done to a deadline?
Preferably the coach will have access to a laptop with built in camera and decent lighting.
QuoteKenny's scenario is an example of situation where a Tormek owner really needs to spend some time with someone in "tech support".
While I don't dismiss the idea out of hand, I think it much more likely that you would find this training available from the dealers rather than Tormek itself. For example Woodcraft carries the Tormek line in their stores along with grindstones and probably some other supplies and jigs. They conduct workshops in various wood crafting skills as a promotion. They may be able to carry out these workshops on site with some support from Tormek. It's a good idea worth pursuing.
Craftsmen need to keep their tools sharp!
Longer term I agree training is the right solution but Kenny has an acute short term problem with a deadline looming. What he needs is a different service, what I used to call in the software industry, "at elbow support". If that can be done digitally then no one has to travel and just 1 hour should deal with it. Someone in the USA should stump up and volunteer.
Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I've got a feeling that our IT policies here won't allow skype or other similar. The school itself is in a black hole for mobile/cell reception too. I had to hold the phone in one spot long enough to upload a couple of pictures to photobucket, as that's blocked as well... The point is that despite these IT obstacles, I managed to circumvent them and get some pictures into the other thread!
I'm hopeful that someone will recognise the grinding pattern I'm getting and be able to pinpoint the trouble.
ah right....you need to do this during working hours because that's where the Tormek is? Cant you just take it home in the evening?
possibly, yes. I don't have a home workshop at present, so it's weather dependent as I'll have to use the patio!
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on July 23, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
QuoteKenny's scenario is an example of situation where a Tormek owner really needs to spend some time with someone in "tech support".
While I don't dismiss the idea out of hand, I think it much more likely that you would find this training available from the dealers rather than Tormek itself. For example Woodcraft carries the Tormek line in their stores along with grindstones and probably some other supplies and jigs. They conduct workshops in various wood crafting skills as a promotion. They may be able to carry out these workshops on site with some support from Tormek. It's a good idea worth pursuing.
Craftsmen need to keep their tools sharp!
Then you will end up with the woodcraft two step.
I went to a sharpening class, after I bought my Tormek, but was going to by the jigs I was missing from them. It SPECIFICALLY mentioned being taught on a Tormek, and they never even came close to that (was more of a things need to be sharp and here are our bench stones lecture).
I didn't buy anything from them and ended up getting it from Jeff.
In the old days, (DeWalt radial arm saw comes to mind) companies used to teach things. Now, they are worried about liability if they teach a bad habit, etc.
Its just not relevant in Kenny's case because he's nowhere near anyone who can deliver it, the equipment is owned by a school and school budgets are notoriously thinly spread. Even if he could spare the time AND there happened to be someone within 5 miles of his house, the school would almost certainly not fund it as a priority.
He and I have had a natter on the phone now and I'm confident that one way or another he'll get there.
Rob, if Kenny survives this, he should have at least a small part in the sequel to Jeff and Norm's fish and chips western. :)
Ken
"In the old days, (DeWalt radial arm saw comes to mind) companies used to teach things."
Excellent point. If Sweden is reading this, maybe you will post when and where Tormek is being demonstrated at woodworking shows.
Ken
Before I moved, my "shop" was the garage which also held my wife's car. I would set up my Tormek on a workmate just outside the garage. The light was excellent. Given a reasonably nice day, it can be a pleasant way to work.
Ken
yes...."the weather being nice" and "England or Scotland" don't usually belong in the same sentence Ken :-)
Good one, Rob!
It reminds me of a piece of paper on the bulletin board at work. (most of my coworkers played golf) There were two grizzled old Scotsmen, their beards full of ice and snow. (they were on the golf course) "Same time next week?" "Ay, weather permittin'!"
Ken
If problems like this happens and we are closed, the agent in the users country are still open and they have been trained.
However, some problems are hard to find a reason for and then somebody at Tormek should be reachable.
I´ll do my best to check it and also the Tormek moderator does and has replied.
Kenny had really bad luck with this and I will do my best to help him.
Stig
I believe the true measure of a company's customer service is how it handles the problem situations. I have mentioned my positive dealings with Lee Valley over the years. Where Lee Valley really shined was when I ordered an air cleaner. The unit arrived damaged. It had been dropped in transit. It was not Lee Valley's fault, however, Lee Valley stepped up to the plate and handled the situation to my satisfaction. My already positive feelings toward Lee Valley have been increased ever since.
This is one of those problem situations for Tormek AB. I am confident Stig will follow through and do right.
Ken
Just to follow up, Stig has been in touch, and I'm now a lot less stressed, although my pile of blunt chisel and plane blades hasn't gone down as fast as I'd hoped by this point in tiime. I'm confident that I'll get caught up fairly quickly. There's still a little question over the USB but I hope that I'll get that resolved soon.
Good news all round :-)
ditto Rob's comment!
Ken
I believe Robin W's comment says a lot:
"Regarding previous comments about contacting distributers for help and/or training, I phoned D & M Tools , a distributer of Tormek and they do not do Tormek training. Brimarc the UK importer advised that they likewise do not undertake Tormek training as people would not pay the price. They have a representative who may be in Scotland possibly every 12 weeks or so, and if contacted that person may call in to a customer who has reported problems. I don't think kennyk (or indeed anyone else) can hold his breath that long!"
I don't mean to fault Tormek AB on this issue. Adding enough trained support personnel to the payroll to give "boots on the ground" support world wide would surely sink the company. After all, Kenny's school is located within an hour of Glasgow, a major city. He could just as likely been located near a sheep station in Australia or in among the woodcarvers in Truchas, New Mexico (a nice little town, but very remote).
We live in an age of distance learning. It is truly astounding that a person on a sheep station or anywhere in the world with broad band can receive a university education online. Compared with having fifty technical assist persons on the Tormek payroll, producing several you tubes in house seems miniscule. Add to that the fact that these you tubes could easily be overdubbed in several languages. What an amazing learning tool!
Look back over this forum. The same issues keep popping up. People have trouble using the stone grader. The USB alignment puzzles new users. Grinding chisels square is a perennial issue. I believe most of us are not completely comfortable using the leather honing wheel. These are all issues which can easily be handled with a session with a Tormek expert. I believe they are all issues which can be handled by a well done you tube.
For the sake of Tormek AB, I believe it is crucial that these you tubes be produced in house. Without such learning tools, I believe Tormek's greatest competition will be the used Tormek market from discouraged users. We live in an age of instant learning expectations.
The Tormek does have a learning curve, as do all tools. The marketing videos ignore this and paint an unrealistic rosy picture. If Tormek produces videos dealing with the real world issues of learning how to use this fine product successfully, the end result will be happy users reluctant to sell their Tormeks on the used market. They would become Tormek's best advertisement. Also, if Tormek produces the videos, they won't be done by someone who might suggest a way to make a "comparable" machine at home with twenty dollars worth of scrap parts and an old motor.
We would all benefit from well done instructional videos. The expectation today is that such videos be readily available at no cost on the Internet. So be it. I have no doubt that the marketing department will subtly project the message of Tormek quality and versatility into the instructional videos. Why not? That's the way of the world, and, if the videos are genuinely instructional, we all benefit. (Just make sure that the marketing department plays a minor role.)
I believe it makes sense to rely more on videos than on dealers for solving customer problems. Most dealers (at least in the US) sell several brands of sharpening equipment, including several brands of wet grinders. The dealer makes money regardless of the brand purchased. With very well done Tormek produced brands, the Tormek name remains predominant.
I believe Kenny might have experienced much less frustration if such instructional videos were available. The Lie-Nielsen company in Maine (USA) makes world class metal planes. As part of their instructional you tubes, they discuss how to deal with play in the threaded adjusting wheels. Does this mean their planes are inferior? Certainly not. A certain amount of play in threads is just the nature of the beast. Why not deal with it intelligently so that it will not create a problem? Dealing with grinding wheel wear and alignment problems are part of the nature of the sharpening beast. Let's acknowledge this and move on as trained users.
Ken
Spot on Ken. What you're opening up here is what I suspect is the age old tension between the sales side of the house and the engineering side. Sales and marketing (operations) folks have an in built fear of allowing anything negative about the product to leak out into the market place. The classic sales mindset is that by leading the prospect down a path which only exposes them to positive aspects of the product, they will ultimately overcome any natural resistance and/or objections and the decision to buy will be a "yes". I have little doubt this would also be true of live demonstrations. The skilled demo artisan will know what "looks good" when in a (high risk) live situation and will focus on sharpening tools which show off the features to their best. They will carefully avoid operations like sharpening planar blades because its difficult and time consuming. Instead, knives, chisels, scissors etc will be what gets demo'd.
Engineering on the other hand who by the very nature of their function, deal with truths constantly. You can't "flannel" a piece of steel and "talk it round" to become the shape you want when you're designing a jig! The real world is hard and unyielding, only through a complete and utter acceptance of the true nature of material can you hope to persuade metals to adopt the geometry you want. As a consequence, many if not all good engineers are rather quiet unassuming people. They have a lot of humility because any trace of ego will be squashed out of them at the apprentice stage when their ego drives them to mistake after mistake.
My point.........engineers are kept away from customers with an almost religious like zeal because they might "spill the beans" and actually admit to the weaknesses. Herein lies the classic mistake that marketing and sales people constantly make. CUSTOMERS AREN'T STUPID. And neither are prospects in the main. They want to know how the thing really works, genuinely, sincerely and they can accept that a quality result is a journey. That journey begins with acquiring the tools and then you layer on the skills. Start small and grow the capability.
Its all in the positioning. Marketing have decided that the message is "Tormek.....its a doddle to use and you'll get instant results". In my opinion (for what its worth) the message should be: "Tormek.....it's the best there is (heirloom quality being the comparator). It will sharpen to perfection nearly every edge tool you own and we understand that, just like every worthwhile human endeavour, skills don't develop in 15 minutes, so we'll be with you every step of the way. Our free training and support will mentor and coach you.......blah blah etc
If the tool is positioned honestly and the necessary detailed, close up instructional videos are created then these bear traps for new users will be managed and minimised. Sales and marketing people....its OK to be honest, really and truly it is. Until a company gets consistent with its core brand value then it will always be batting problems from one department to another. The tension between revenue drivers and support fixers and ultimately customers will be an unhappy one.
But it needn't be. Releasing detailed instructional videos for the SE76, SP650 and the honing wheel use....whats the cost of that? £10K max if not less?? For the sake of substantially higher customer satisfaction, is that not a sensible investment?
I could be wrong about this, but I have come to understand that Tormek doesn't do any training. They don't set up training sessions or how-to classes for their customers or even as a marketing strategy for potential customers.
It could be that Tormek depends on its distributors for this. If so, do they simply leave it up to them to carry out these training sessions and classes as an option? In others words it's ok with Tormek if you're a distributor and you conduct no training sessions or classes?
I think there's a cultural shift occurring in our society that has escaped Tormek's marketing department.
I remember visiting hardware and lumber stores as a young adult in the 1970's and 1980's. This was before we had home centers and I didn't realize it then but it was the very beginning of the do-it-yourself (DIY) movement. At that time customers visiting one of these places were expected to know what they were looking for and how to use it. If I went in there unsure of how to do something I'd get a funny look and very little help. Fast forward to 2014. Now customers in these places are not expected to know what they're doing or what they're looking for. The sales staff is expected to guide the customer and help him or her to achieve success with the project.
The exponential growth in the software industry over the past 25 years has taught us a lot about how technical products are both marketed and supported.
Those products that are very sophisticated to use (like ERP systems and major back office business automation) require a clear and well thought through implementation strategy which involves business mapping, training and support.
At the other end of the spectrum come the simple commodity products like a free download that allows you to test the speed of your broadband connection. It only has 2 buttons so no training or support is needed. But in the middle comes a massive range of products which everyone can benefit from either formal classroom based training or at the very least digital self paced training or the good old ubiquitous Youtube tutorials. (I count MS Office in this category).
There is absolutely no question that the Tormek is sufficiently sophisticated (and versatile as a consequence) such that some aspects of its use merit a more formal approach to training than just the manual.....despite how comprehensive it is. In fact, the very fact that the manual is so comprehensive is testament to the fact that Tormek AB understand the need for a significant learning curve being navigated to achieve mastery.
Whats changed is the expectation to have that content in a modern format. Ie out of a book and into an online format.
Herman:
Yes, you are wrong ;) We do have classes, in Sweden actually even at our HQ for teachers.
We also do store-demo´s and education in school´s by our self but also with many of our agents around the world.
However, we have around 35 countries that sell Tormek and we are 2-3 persons trying to do our best to have demo´s and meet our customers.
Most of the agents are doing shows and store-demo's and even some stores has a Tormek in store with an staff trained.
We know that the stores needs education to learn about Tormek themselves and that's an ongoing work that we do all the time.
Stig
Thanks for the reply, Stig. It sounds to me like Tormek could benefit greatly by expanding these services and making sure that the dealers in the individual countries each have their own training schemes in place. I believe sales would increase in response. I know, for example, that without the New Yankee Workshop episode I would probably never have made my purchase. That was 12 years ago and the episode was in reruns at the time. Nowadays consumers have been conditioned to expect more in the way of training and free classes.
I know many people who would be attracted by the idea of being able to sharpen their own household cutlery and their tools as well. They just don't know where to start.
Stig, since no rational person expects Tormek to add enough staff to the payroll to really cover all thirty five countries, why not have one of the classes you give at headquarters professionally videotaped? As part of the production, different versions could be overdubbed in languages other than Swedish. These videos could be posted on the Tormek website or this forum. Your support staff could get the message out to many people at very little cost. The video of the class would probably answer most questions. The few remaining questions could be individually answered by our support staff and also posted on the forum for others to read.
Ken
Guys....YouTube is way ahead of you. English was long ago accepted as the standard business language and has already been accepted as the universal language on YouTube. Translation is generally not really needed I would suggest. It's a significant cost and operational barrier to entry if you don't have direct operations in the territory (which Tormek don't) so don't bother with it. Just tape the most succinct detailed training on the tricky things and upload that in max 15 minute bursts or preferably less. People want consumable bulletins that focus on one topic. So one on the SE76, one on the Stropping process, one on using the stone grader etc. Short and focused on the solution with no long boring lectures.
All you need to do is take the video as Ken suggests and post it in high quality format on YT. That will give people like Kenny a place to go and bone up on the tricky bits. Jeff's turning videos are the sort of quality I'm talking about here. Even they were on the salesy side and that was clearly their intent. However they were sufficiently detailed to genuinely help me start grinding my tricky tools and in fact I downloaded them onto an ipad for use offline and had them in the workshop with me when I was starting. It was like having a personal trainer in my workshop...very useful and far more consumable than the manual.
Good points, Rob. I purchased the DVD of sharpening and using turning tools before I purchased the jigs. The DVD was instrumental in deciding to purchased the turning jigs, even though my lathe is not presently set up.
I agree with Rob that separate shorter, but still in depth you tubes on the SE-76, stone grader, and stropping process would cover most of the problems. I would expect them to be high quality and well edited.
Stig, I found a very well done more general video giving more background on the Tormek and the factory. It included Hakan Persson. I have been unable to locate it again. Would you please post a link to it? I believe it would be of general interest to the forum. (After August 4 would be fine.)
Ken
There is one sizeable woodworking show in Scotland per year, and I don't recollect seeing a Tormek being demonstrated last time. It's also not the right place to try and get enough time with an "expert" to tackle your own problems in detail. It is also amazing how many exhibitors do not have their equipment powered up and available for live demonstrations.
Through the Tormek site, it lists several stockists in Scotland - it would be interesting to know if they actually have any stock, and if any of their staff are trained and experienced enough to address the types of problems as typified by kennyk's recent posts on the SE-76.
Having visited some of these companies for other reasons, I doubt if they would do a demonstration. Strangely enough none of them are companies I would approach first, and probably through the power of the internet I would go to dealers in England. (This will be even more interesting if Scotland votes for independence in September.) I actually purchased my T7 from a company some 400 miles away.
I was in a local toolstore, very good for the things they do, and I did ask one time about getting a demonstration on some machines (bandsaw; planer-thicknesser; tablesaw) but they don't do such things (they are not alone with this business stance). I suggested that they could have a separated area away from the showroom with these machines set up and have say Saturday morning demo sessions (I would have been happy to do some) - but that didn't fit in and there was also some comment about insurance and safety issues.
At one large woodworking show a few years ago, I was in the market for a bandsaw. I was examining the bandsaw of a well known company, and pointed out that it was impossible to align the scale. The company representative said that the first thing he would do is drill out the holes to 3/8". So I politely informed him that I would not be spending £500 on one of his machines if the first thing I did was start drilling holes in the table!
At the show this year I was asking about differences in dust extractors, in particular the noise figures on two models. The company representative told me the figures and followed it in a condescending manner with "if that means anything to you". Unfortunately for him, it does as I have done many noise radiation tests on hydro-mechanical equipment, and I also understand the maths behind decibels. As a friend of mine would say, "He couldn't sell you a glass of water in the desert!"
Last year I had some joinery work to do which involved a tight tolerance framework to fit in a restricted space. I came to the conclusion that if I could have the various vertical and horizontal pieces pre-made and drilled, trial fitted, it would make life easier. So I looked into pocket hole jigs, and the videos available online about a well known make. Duly bought the kit, and I am delighted to say it worked straight out the box without any problems; exactly as per instructions; saved me a shed load of time and gave me a great fitting framework. The point of this comment is that the videos were great instructional aids, and the instructions were correct.
I am also the owner of a scraper plane from a well known good quality maker. It was bought at great expense for a particular job, which despite the instruction leaflet, I managed achieve. However on subsequent jobs and after re-sharpening in accordance with the instruction leaflet, I have been unable to get it to work properly. I recently went online and found several personal videos which covered sharpening and set up issues. After studying these I then had this tool working better than ever. It's sad that these videos were posted by individuals, not the manufacturer.
We are probably all in the same position of having to purchase tools and machines with little or no access to proper demonstration or testing, and have to rely on manufacturers' sales blurb, online searches and reports by others. Whilst this is half-a-step better than buying completely blind, my experiences as exemplified above, do show that online videos which address problematic real-life issues like set up, are a great training tool and indeed aid sales.
If Tormek put some effort into addressing the SE-76 issues as too frequently reported on this forum, then the company would undoubtedly benefit.
Like I said....customers aren't stupid!
Rob and I have mentioned the "T-N-T" video (touch and turn) Jeff Farris did for Tormek. I don't like to write about something unless it is fresh on my mind. I rewatched the video earlier this evening. It won't reach as large an audience as a free you tube. However, in my opinion, the quality and amount of information well presented more than offset the cost.
While the DVD is primarily oriented toward turning tools, it goes into the fundamentals in good detail. Jeff demonstrates the use of the stone grader numerous times. The importance of aligning the universal support bar in emphasized. The use of the diamond wheel dresser is demonstrated. The use of the leather honing wheel as well as the importance of it is demonstrated several times.
I consider this DVD an important part of a Tormek user's personal library even if no turning tools are sharpened. I bought it before I purchased any turning jigs. It could serve as a standard for further training videos. it cleverly combines sharpening discussions for the individual sharpening tools. Than, if the viewer wishes and clicks "enter" on either thee keyboard or remote, the viewer is directed to a demonstration on using the particular tool. Well done!
Robin made some good points about the lack of a Tormek presence at the major annual wood show in Scotland. I attended a more local show in Hartville, Ohio. I was hoping to talk with the Tormek rep. The Tormek rep was a no show. I ended up purchasing a sharpening product from a competitor.
Tormek makes a quality product. It is well designed, solidly built and versatile. Just in the few years I have been a Tormek user, the Tormek has become much more versatile. I look forward to future innovations. However, the Tormek will not sell itself. Part of the marketing equation must be more than adequate training resources and satisfied, skilled users who will spread the word.
Ken
Hi again,
As I wrote earlier, we attend as many shows and demo´s as possible but we cant be everywhere.
In the states the IWF is coming up in Atlanta, we will be there with our US agent. In Sweden I have a demo calender on the Swedish website and I could also have one on the English website.
Stig
Ken S : Here you have the video http://www.tormek.com/en/about/index.php
The dot connecting piece in this puzzle that has always made me confused about Tormek marketing strategy is the issue of YouTube. Its such a blindingly obvious missed opportunity with staggeringly huge operations investment savings to be leveraged.
The ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC thing about the web is its ability to connect people across great distances. That includes husbands and wives, children and grand children, buyers and sellers in auctions and of course manufacturers or retailers and their prospective customers. Never before in the history of the human race has any medium even come close to the connecting power of the Internet. Add to that the modern speed of global broadband in the 1st world and you can actually stream live images around the planet. HOW COOL IS THAT? I MEAN REALLY, JUST THINK ABOUT HOW INCREDIBLY USEFUL IS THAT?
So where even in the 70's and 80's companies needed massive and expensive global operations with local language specialisation etc to really reach a global customer base, now they can literally have on demand live training and demonstration using this stunningly useful technology.
So why oh why don't you use it to handle problems like this. Instructional bursts of YT would literally strip thousands of support hours out of your cost base by simply pointing the problem customer to the YT pieces and then loop back a couple days later to check on progress. Your PONC (price of non conformance) would shrink in ways you cant yet imagine and your brand equity would stop being battered by the poor quality reporting we see here constantly with the repeated age old problems.
If the answer to that question is that marketing wont let a "negative" video out the door....just refer them to the debate witnessed here about customers being capable of handling the truth, warts n all.
A clever marketing guru would use that to your advantage in the positioning. Just think of some of the classic strap lines over the past few decades to highlight quality manufacturing versus cheaper clones:
"Some day all watches will be made this way" (Seiko)
"Stella Artois, reassuringly expensive"
"Beanz meanz Heinz" for Heinz baked beans is clearly saying there is only one choice (and the quality is tacet)
The message (not the strapline) wants to be along the lines of:
"Tormek........the pinnacle in sharpening systems innovation and manufacture for the discerning......for life.
The connotation is that by joining this exclusive family, you will be supported for life (unlike the cheaper clones who will dump product on you and run like the wind).
If it were my company (if I ruled the world etc etc) I would go far further in my digital marketing and I would have a live YT channel for the Tormek. Regular posts would come out once per week or once a month with all manner of useful bits n bites. One day it would be "how to dismantle" your Tormek, next, how to grind a bowl gouge......how to change the grinding wheel without buggering the shaft etc.......how to how to how to how to...on and on. Same presenter every time so he becomes known and loved. I would have it linked on a permanent sticky through this forum and the website. Promote it to death as the living, breathing, modern, vibrant face of Tormek.
Rob, if I am the forum diplomat as you say, then I nominate you to be the forum Minister of Propaganda. :)
You are correct, of course, in your comments about the widespread impact of you tubes. I must confess that even though I am a devout last century book learner, I have found you tubes very useful. I think they are not the wave of the future; they are the wave of the present.
I refer to the Tormek handbook often. I like having physical books for reference. I also have the latest version downloaded on my ipad. I suspect the updated download will eventually become the ready reference.
i believe the best example of how people prefer to learn today was Herman's posting the link to the you tube he made demonstrating his HK-50 small blade jig. It was well done and instantly absorbable in today's computer culture. (Great job, Herman!)
The production cost of you tubes is something which will not show up as a distinct auditable number on the corporate books. Only sales revenue is recorded. Sales will occur. Sales will go to the organization with the best presentation. In today's world, that's you tubes. Even very done DVDs by experts, often far superior in quality to the you tubes, do not have anywhere near the audience of the free you tubes.
From a strictly marketing standpoint, well done you tubes also limit the real competition. The real competition is not lower priced clones. I believe the real competition is the used Tormek market. A very satisfied Tormek user's Tormek probably won't be sold until health, age, or estate prevail.
Ken
8)
Not propaganda Ken.....positive change management :-)
Rob, if "you people" :) had just used a little "positive change management" in the 1770s and used slogans like "supporting the troops" (to help pay for the defense of the colonies during the French and Indian War) instead of "tea tax", "my people" might be enjoying a proper size pint instead of having our "positive change managers" think we were stupid enough to accept the little 16 oz. pint!
Ken :D
I detest phrases like 'positive change management'; 'centres of excellence', 'thinking outside the box' and other bullshit management speak.
However I fully endorse Rob's views on positive change management above, or any other terminology one might like to apply.
Have Tormek woken up to the fact that the bulk of contributors to the forum are of a certain demographic?
(ie not in the first flush of youth; liable to become grumpy and intolerant of stupidity; plenty of other experiences behind them; already own Tormek machines; have mastered a lot of the idiosyncrasies of the machine; hard nosed and determined to find solutions to problems; prepared to share their knowledge and help out those less experienced or with problems).
Those of us in that demographic have lived through seeing communications develop from paper and pencil and the humble telephone, to the web and its wide open facilities (and foibles); we all embrace these facilities to a greater or lesser extent. We are on the Forum!!!!
So what about Tormek's future customers? Most will be younger than us and if we can see the advantage of the web medium, then they will expect even more.
Have Tormek considered how much time and money they spend going to and from shows (include time preparing, travelling, overnighting in hotels, hanging around at shows etc) all or which is unproductive, and what is the real return? How many SE-76 owner problems have they solved?
Could they put a cost on the time we individuals have spent raising issues and the blood sweat and tears spent trying to get round the problems and trying to match the sales video hype? If Tormek covered these costs, even at a nominal rate, they would be bust.
If someone in the market for a sharpening system looked on this forum and saw the number of SE-76 debates, would it encourage that person to by a Tormek?
In comparison, how much time and effort and outlay would it take for an expert to do a half or one hour video addressing some of the SE-76 idiosyncrasies? No packing; no travelling; no hotels etc.. Set up a video camera or iPad and get started. It doesn't need an immaculate, word perfect, MGM standard of editing. It should be done as you would explain something in your own workshop. If required back track, repeat and elucidate how to do things.
Apart from standard online video showing how to set things up and cover the problems likely to be encountered, they could do a weekly/monthly webinar (live online forum with customer interaction). Thus and an "expert" would address problematic issue(s) as submitted to the forum. Others can contribute.
Not all things will be cracked first time, but try. Go and resolve before the next programme and come back to it if required. We're all human and we all learn.
This approach must be cheaper than sending representatives to do demos at shows.
(Even when I know more about a particular subject than anyone else on the planet, I would never call myself an "expert", hence the quotation marks.)
How many online videos are there, for example, sharpening and setting up a plane? Why do we go seeking out these things and learn from them, or discount some when we realise the presenter is off track?
Why do we look at the various woodwork shop type online programmes - it's because we see how others address issues and show how they work round them, or demonstrate their preferred methods. We all learn and appreciate the content.
My previous employer, a large world wide known corporation, set up marketing departments near some of our large customers, and wanted all queries routed through those departments. I also know that those same customers refused to deal with the marketing departments and wanted to 'speak to the horse's mouth' and deal with the guys who knew how the systems worked and who to speak to in the event of any problems. Every engineered item will have a problem at some time - that's not a problem, it's how that problem is handled by the manufacturer which is the problem.
I bet a dram or two that Tormek designers and staff have learned from contributions to this Forum, so they should also consider how they could capitalise on this collective expertise in future.
Quote from: Ken S on July 30, 2014, 02:54:52 PM
Rob, if "you people" :) had just used a little "positive change management" in the 1770s and used slogans like "supporting the troops" (to help pay for the defense of the colonies during the French and Indian War) instead of "tea tax", "my people" might be enjoying a proper size pint instead of having our "positive change managers" think we were stupid enough to accept the little 16 oz. pint!
Ken :D
How accidentally and yet entirely appropriate Ken. Even a Nation makes operational errors when attempting to feed an existing empire by failing to notice what is changing around it :o
Quote from: Ken S on July 30, 2014, 03:58:58 AM
Robin made some good points about the lack of a Tormek presence at the major annual wood show in Scotland. I attended a more local show in Hartville, Ohio. I was hoping to talk with the Tormek rep. The Tormek rep was a no show. I ended up purchasing a sharpening product from a competitor.
It's a moot point, as the Scotland Show has been cancelled this year. >:(
but its also academic because as Stig has said, there's just no way Tormek has the feet on the street to attend every show. Nor would anyone expect them to have, its just not reasonable.
What is both reasonable and easily achievable is a set of instructional YTubes that require zero distribution or T&E investments since they can be piped down an existing infrastructure for nothing :-)
Way to go, Robin. You have described many of us, myself included, very well. We are not just a demographic; we are Tormek's customers. I have no desire to run Tormek AB. I do hope the present management will improve the training options readily available to those of us who cannot reasonably be expected to travel to Sweden. I do hope these training improvements and expansion will be done in a manner which is both learning effective and cost effective for Tormek AB. I want Tormek AB to prosper and continue to innovate. We have seen some real improvements in recent years; I hope to see more.
I believe the tormek is a very good and versatile tool with the potential to be an even better and more versatile tool. Some of that potential can be realized from the company's engineering and support departments. Some can originate with customers and this forum.
Stig, I'm afraid you will be returning to work after holiday with a very full agenda. I hope your colleagues at Tormek AB are open to positive suggestions. We have certainly offered many.
I don't believe we should expect Tormek AB to do the whole job. I am willing to volunteer to be part of a group of individuals who would review any new company produced you tubes or videos. In fairness to the company, I would agree to share my comments only with the company until such time as the you tubes or videos are released to the general public. The comments I would share with Tormek AB would be honest, polite and presented in a positive though critical manner.
Ken
"Ken S : Here you have the video http://www.tormek.com/en/about/index.php"
Thanks, Stig. It is a little difficult to locate, but well worth the time. (It is on the Tormek website.) I would recommend everyone on the forum watch this short video. Among other things it discusses the Tormek philosophy and shows some of the inspection process at the factory. I always feel more confident in a product when I see dial indicators being used in the inspection process.
Ken
hrmpphh
At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man, that kind of "corporate identity" marketing just makes me want to reach for the sick bucket.
All that cost could have been sunk into YT's that actually help customers rather than seduce would be investors and shareholders!
Rob, you don't qualify as a grumpy old man yet. However, I see your point about the expenditure being chosen instead of more technical you tubes. Are the two mutually exclusive? Nothing gets manufactured without investors and shareholders. Investors and shareholders get no return on their investment without customers. Satisfied customers become repeat customers. Repeat customers make more dividends and R&D money.
I found the short glimpses of the inspection process and company philosophy interesting. I also hope to find the upcoming technical you tubes most interesting.
Ken
when I first graduated I worked in TV advertising for 3 years. There was a phenomenon we all knew about at the time called "the chairman's wife syndrome".
This was when a very expensive commercial break would be bought by an advertising agency on a Sunday afternoon or sometimes a Saturday night. The slot would have been bought at top of the rate card because the client company's chairman's wife was throwing a dinner party at the time it was to be broadcast. Her plan would be to sit all her posh guests round the Tele and watch the scheduled advert to show off her husband to her friends. Naturally, he wouldn't have the courage to talk his wife out of this and so the client company would pay many tens of thousands of pounds over the odds to secure 30 seconds in the centre break of the Bond film (or whatever the programme was) all to satisfy the ego of the chairman's wife.
There is a concept in advertising called "frequency" and this refers as the name suggests to the amount of time the advert is repeated and therefore the probability of it being seen by the target audience. If an advert is not seen very much it massively reduces its impact and results. In order to hit the frequency targets to make advertising effective in the Televisual medium a company has to spend really quite ludicrous amounts of money. Procter & Gamble and Unilever for example spend many hundreds of millions on the soap, washing powder etc brands. Whats the point I hear you ask?
The point is that smaller companies cannot hope to gain the frequency targets needed to actually have any influence on their target audience at all because they don't have the marketing budgets to drive the numbers. So, given all that is well known in the fmcg marketing universe, I am always left wondering what the real motive is behind these kinds of corporate footage (much like the chairmans wife anecdote). It is of course entirely possible that many small (ish) companies just don't understand the way advertising works and were "sold" by a slick marketing pitch.
The one possible exception in the modern world that I could be persuaded to consider is digital media. A prospect visiting Tormek's website could conceivably locate that video and be comforted by the attention to quality. But didn't you say its buried somewhere difficult to find?
Again, I have to say, in my view a completely pointless piece of narcissistic mumbo jumbo. (Somewhat negatively I will admit :-)
Agreed. We need to stay focused with getting better training. I'm the oddball guy in the class who always preferred the theory to the hands on part. I also like the history of products and the business. That's not what matters here. Let's get moving on some improved more in depth you tubes.
Ken
ps For those on the forum who don't know, Rob and I have become friends. We have never met in person, and don't always think alike, but have developed a mutual friendly respect for each other, even though we don't speak the same language.......
Cotton pickin' varmint daggnabbit!
:-)