Wondering what the difference between it and the T-3 is and if the T-7 is changing as well?
I've not seen any promotional references to a new model???
This is a situation where some current publicity information from Tormek in Sweden would be a nice addition to the forum. I will try to locate the issue of Wood magazine.
Ken
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s531/USJambe/IMG_0557_zpsb09b8ea0.jpg) (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/USJambe/media/IMG_0557_zpsb09b8ea0.jpg.html)
I can't find anything about it at the Tormek website or the Affinity Toolwork website. A google search brings me back here!
Going by the photo the T-4 looks like an updated version of the T-3 with its 200 mm grindstone.
The Tormek website has two interesting videos posted on its home page. One features the SuperGrind with its older version of the straight edge jig and truing tool. I believe it's the video I got on VHS tape along with my SuperGrind 2000 purchase that I made back in 2002. The other video features the update to the T-7 and the innovative and improved square edge jig and newer truing tool.
It looks like they're getting ready for the introduction of something new.
I wish Tormek had a presence here.
Interesting photo. It may well be an improvement on the T3. I wish it had appeared on the forum before being in the magazine.
Ken
I think we all understand the value and respect Tormek place on this forum!!
I looked online before posting here, and I am guessing maybe Jeff, can't respond until closer to Sept. (release date?). I figure the marketing director, just doesn't realize how far in advance some magazines come out, or they don't want the T-3 to start building up stock, from those waiting for the new model.
Oh I think Jeff with his inimitable style would have been open and honest. Would have shared what knowledge he had and presented it in a positive light as he always did. We are yet to learn who will be managing this forum since there has been no formal communication. Jeff is no longer moderating. I'm sure one day Tormek will let us know who will be taking over. One things for sure, they'll have a difficult act to follow...and I'm not even American :-)
One option for Tormek is to shut this forum down. I find it strange that they don't have a presence here yet they do continue to provide it.
I do hope they keep this forum up and running as it's a valuable resource for those of us who have invested in our Tormeks.
After all, satisfied customers are the best advertisement of all.
I'm sure that's as true on other side of the pond as it is here on this side.
It looks like the integral zinc casing of the T-4 is an innovative improvement over the T-3, and we have all seen that as Tormek innovates and improves its designs it remains loyal to those of us who have bought and who use their older products by making those innovations fit the older designs.
Jeff is no longer moderating? I must have missed the discussion.
If that's true, I'd just like to express a big, "Thank you Jeff!"
We were (are?) all truly lucky to have you here. Your professionalism, depth of knowledge and the amazing amount of time you spent helping folks here over the years is truly appreciated!
Mark
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on July 08, 2014, 02:05:50 AM
I find it strange that they don't have a presence here yet they do continue to provide it.
Tormek's singular absence to engage at all in the dialogue on this forum was partly what informed my comment on how they respect and value this space. Then again, with Jeff at the helm I guess they didn't need to since his style was so conducive to friendly yet professional relations. However, now that he's gone.....and with zero communication......who knows???
I've got to be honest, I think Tormek have seriously lost their way. They've got cheap Chinese clones eating into one side of their market due to their inflated pricing policy and linisher style machines poaching the turners....where do they go? I bet there's a few panic stricken faces in their finance department!
I see that the greeting at the top of the page no longer mentions Jeff but this is the first that I have heard of his no longer being moderator. No mention of any kind, sort of makes me sad but nothing lasts forever. Thanks Jeff.
Jeff may not be a moderator, but clicking on his name, shows that he still visits:
Date Registered:
November 24, 2003, 10:18:08 pm
Local Time:
July 08, 2014, 11:36:39 am
Last Active:
July 06, 2014, 06:20:17 pm
So while he may or may not have moderating duties (at whose choice?), he still visits.
It would appear Stickan is the/a moderator.
I have been a forum member for several years and one of the most frequent posters. In my posts, I have occasionally been one of the most outspoken critics of Tormek AB in Sweden. Critical, but in a constructive, positive manner and neither disrespectful nor cutting.
We are at a critical point on this forum. Jeff Farris, the forum founder as well as the much liked and respected forum leader, is no longer the moderator. While this is certainly a loss for us, I don't believe Jeff would wish to harm the forum.
We are presently in a vacuum of information. I believe the wise course for the present is to remain calm and not be judgemental. Tormek in Sweden will either try to rebuild the forum or it won't. I believe we shall receive some sort of explanatory announcement soon from Tormek AB. in the meantime, let us all work to insure that the forum is worthwhile to maintain.
For the record, I believe this forum has been valuable for its members. I joined when I was first considering the purchase of a Tormek. I sought information to help me decide whether to purchase or not. We have seen many others in this situation.
The forum has assisted many newer members overcome basic usage hurdles. I have certainly benefitted from the experience of other members, and have tried to share my own experiences.
I have tried with limited success to push for more training aids. I believe this forum has and can continue to be a contributor to Tormek AB's bottom line. The Tormek is the high price tag item on the sharpening market. Of course innovative design and high quality are important. I believe knowledge for the users is of equal importance. This forum can and should be a source of honest feedback for Tormek AB. I hope Tormek will realize this and act quickly to heal the breach.
Ken
As Mark Twain once wrote, the news of my demise has been greatly exaggerated. ;D ;D
For the time being, I am still moderating the forum. I can promise you that Tormek management greatly values this forum as an educational environment and watch its content closely to read the opinions of Tormek customers.
That said, I'm not completely in the loop on the T-4, but I it's not hard to piece together the sequence of events. Magazine publishers are notorious for pushing their editorial calendar further and further forward. They also press manufacturers hard for new product information so they can scoop their competition.
So, while Wood magazine told Tormek the article would appear in September, here it is, landing in readers' mailboxes on the 4th of July. The product may not even be in production yet, but even if it is being manufactured, the distribution pipeline is still full of T-3s. You certainly can't blame Tormek for keeping the focus on the product that is current. Tormek typically introduces product in the early fall. Expect to see announcements on the main page and in your e-mail later this year.
Quote from: Tormek moderator on July 08, 2014, 04:13:16 PM
As Mark Twain once wrote, the news of my demise has been greatly exaggerated.
Glad to hear it, Jeff, although we had no doubts you were still in good spirits.
I prefer Davy Crockett's sentiment on the issue (far more than a simple frontiersman, many don't realize he was also a statesman and politician in Washington).
When a rumor was circulating that he had met his demise, he famously said, "I know'd it whar a whopper as soon as I hear'd it!"
Quote from: Rob on July 08, 2014, 08:42:08 AM
I've got to be honest, I think Tormek have seriously lost their way. They've got cheap Chinese clones eating into one side of their market due to their inflated pricing policy and linisher style machines poaching the turners....where do they go? I bet there's a few panic stricken faces in their finance department!
While that's an understandable viewpoint, and it may even be a true one, I have my doubts. Certainly there is good solid competition, but from what I see, sales seem to be going strong. Brick and mortar stores are carrying their full line, and they wouldn't be wasting valuable shelf space if they weren't moving product.
The combination of the wet grinding technique, the two-grit grindstone, the high-quality build, and the precise grinding angles are a combination that has a place in the market.
I know I appreciated the fact that on the day I broke my grindstone I was able to find a local retailer that had a replacement in stock. I was able to pick it up the same day and it was only a 30-minute drive from my house.
While the lesser priced clones have probably eaten into them, that may really only be a short term thing. I've seen multiple people talking about using the clones (effectively a motor) and the Tormek Jigs and in one case I am aware of, wheel.
Not everyone will go with a Tormek, and some may upgrade later, as budgets allow. For me it was out of reach for years, until I fell into a buy on CL, and then got extra's due to overtime and no other bills. (paying off my house was a big goal I achieved)
Jeff, good to know your fine, and I should straighten something out, it was an AD, NOT an article.
I think you may have hit upon an interesting point there. The Tormek jigs are without doubt superb quality. I wonder if their core proposition in the future will be to own the jig space with global patents? It seems to me that the motor and housing etc have becomes commodities whereas the design and ingenuity is in the jigs.
"I should straighten something out, it was an AD, NOT an article." Good point. I can certainly see where the marketing department would want to time ads to coincide with the release of a new product. Normally one might expect the September issue to be in September. Snafus happen.
Rob, you make a good point about the Tormek jigs. The jig which comes to mind is the DBS-22 for sharpening drill bits. I have used mine enough to know it is a very capable and versatile jig. Drill bits can be sharpened many different ways. The advantage of the Tormek jig is the ability to custom grind a bit. The four facet grind is a definite advantage in accuracy. The Tormek jig can be adjusted for various clearance angles and angle of the cutting edge. This gives great flexibility in matching a bit to the kind of metal (or wood) being cut.
The DBS-22 is probably the most expensive jig. Examining the machining and engineering tells the story. It is first class. Any old method will probably make a bit sharp enough to punch a hole. For those who are more particular, the Tormek is the way to go. (It is no doubt overkill for my needs. I have sharpened bits in the field with a file. The DBS just does it more elegantly. After all, this is a hobby for me, and I enjoy the precision.
I disagree about Tormek being the jig provider for less expensive main units. Yes, they are probably compatable. However, why would one cheap out on the main component? I have actually purchased two T7 units (the first one was stolen). The two cost less than what I have in jigs. Most of my lifestyle is simple. I like to put the quality in long lasting purchases. Items with a short life, like vehicles, have never been that important to me. Tools, which should last for generations, are a much higher priority.
Quote from: Ken S on July 09, 2014, 02:50:19 AM
I disagree about Tormek being the jig provider for less expensive main units. Yes, they are probably compatable. However, why would one cheap out on the main component? I have actually purchased two T7 units (the first one was stolen). The two cost less than what I have in jigs. Most of my lifestyle is simple. I like to put the quality in long lasting purchases. Items with a short life, like vehicles, have never been that important to me. Tools, which should last for generations, are a much higher priority.
Why, quite simply budget.
In the stone case I know of (relative), it is because the cost, and he refuses to use my unit ("I will use up all your stone and I don't want to do that"). Since mine came with the jigs for a turner and carver, that I don't use yet, as well as the old straight jig, I passed those along to use (I know from others they work on both the Jet and Grizzly). The chip was worked out of my old stone via a hand crank grinder, but the treadle device, went towards another purpose (leatherwork sewing machine) and he was going to "build his own motorized device". (I sent him the link based on costs he gave me and he came out ahead just using the Griz for the motor. (look back at the old Tormek tools, and get the idea's)
He is the type where/when he gets money ahead, the Tormek will be purchased, but for now he is learning. (although I do worry he is losing it, as he argued with me that the grading stone is a Nagura stone, not the only reason I think he is losing it)
When/if he upgrades, this will be passed on to another relative, who will probably used it QUITE a bit less, rather then CL it. (be better off CL'ing it IMHO)
It is perhaps regrettable but the vast majority of people don't think like you Ken. They don't have the quality at the core of them and they don't think long term. Doubtless, in part due to the short termism of politicians and celebrities infecting our culture but I rather suspect that budget does drive a huge part of the decision making.
I strongly suspect that if Tormek jigs can be used with a budget friendly carcass and motor then Mr Average Joe will not think he's cheaping out on the motor rather he's being smart by avoiding unnecessary cost. And the troubling thing is....he's got a point, if he hadn't then the entire Taiwanese manufacturing economies would have no basis to survive.
I think there is a spectrum of customers out there. Everyone is concerned with the quality versus cost issue, but we will all find ourselves in different places along the spectrum for each individual purchase we make.
For example, when it comes to chisels and knives I will never invest in the high-priced items. I consider them boutique. I just try to get decent quality at a fair price and keep them sharp using my Tormek. They suit my needs and I believe that the higher-priced alternatives just won't make a significant improvement in that regard.
For things like the Tormek and Hunter ceiling fans, I'm at a different place on the spectrum. I consider these items to be utilitarian but I'm willing to be at a higher-priced location on the spectrum because in the long run I'll get my money's worth. I bought my two Hunters in 1982 when I landed a high-paying job as a carpenter, and I got my Tormek in 2002 when after several years of consideration I just decided I wanted it. I expect to be sharpening with the Tormek and cooled by the fans for the rest of my life. Both of these investments continue to save me money and improve the quality of my life.
For example, every time I cut something it's with a sharp tool. The dullest tools in my home are by far sharper than anything you'd find in the vast majority of homes. And the fans, well one kept me cool as I slept last night, and the other is doing the same as I type this message. Over the years they've moved with me to five different homes. I've disassembled, cleaned, and changed their oil several times. They have never failed and never needed repair.
Knowing myself, if I tried to make a cheap machine using a non-Tormek grinder and Tormek jigs, the first machine will be way more expensive than the Tormek. That's just me - I am sure other people can be smarter. The second, third and fourth machines I would have put together will finally save some money. Since I only needed one machine and nobody I know outside of this discussion group wanted a grinder, I decided just to get the Tormek and a jig kit - because there is some discount by buying a set.
Also, I am a freelancer - the more I work, the more I get paid. So I decided to work a few more hours instead of trying to figure out how to do it.
I think the new T4 would be just the ticket for those who bring their Tormeks to barbeques. Right, Kenny?
It would leave more room in the boot for beer (and food).
Ken
I have just had an email from Axminster (large tool distributer in UK) with details of the T4. It has a 200mm (8") wheel.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/tormek-t-4-water-cooled-sharpening-system-with-nvr-switch?utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Image+-+Exclusive%21+See+it+in+our+stores&utm_content=R+-+NEW+Sharpening+Innovation+from+Tormek&utm_campaign=14wk36a_t4 (http://www.axminster.co.uk/tormek-t-4-water-cooled-sharpening-system-with-nvr-switch?utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Image+-+Exclusive%21+See+it+in+our+stores&utm_content=R+-+NEW+Sharpening+Innovation+from+Tormek&utm_campaign=14wk36a_t4)
Interesting point I noticed was the following:-
The Tormek T-4 incorporates new, innovative, patent pending features. Firstly, the zinc cast top incorporates the key components of the main shaft, Universal Support and motor assembly resulting in superb accuracy as standard. Secondly, the Universal Support is held in two sleeves in the zinc cast top, meaning that the improved locking design and tighter tolerances will give even better results. Both designs give improved accuracy and precision for easy sharpening on the new Tormek T-4.
Despite advertising this new machine, they don't have any in stock!
"Sharpen your plane irons and chisels with a perfectly square edge" (from the Axminster description). This sounds like a fine new feature. Will it be incorporated into the T7 (T8?) and, can we retrofit our present units?
Since the T4 is shipped without any jigs, including the SE-76, is the target market new buyers or existing owners who wish to upgrade?
I would be curious to know how the T4's "improved locking design and tighter tolerances" compare with the present design and tolerances of the T7. A would also like to learn more about the "new, innovative, patent pending features" incorporated into the T4. is the "industrial motor" an upgrade from the former fifty percent duty motor?
Sweden, it is time to illuminate the party faithful. Please give us a thorough description of the new model, and rumors of the T8.
Ken
Hi,
I will share this info from the web-page, that explains the difference between the T3 and T4, please read:
http://tormek.com/international/en/machine-models/tormek-t-4/
There is no need for an upgraded motor on the T4, but the feeling is much more like the T7.
The T4 replaces the T3 and will be available in stores within some weeks, in some countries within days.
The Zink top can be compared to the tolerances of the T7, the T3 could not.
When and if there come´s a "T8", I let you know ;-)
Thanks for the information, Stig. I can see where substituting a machined zinc top for the former plastic top of the cover is real progress in precision alignment and durability.
In my opinion, cost difference between the T4 and T7 is a minor consideration. When the basic T4 is outfitted with the diamond dresser and SE-76 like the T7, the cost difference is only about $117 USD. That is only a 21% difference in cost for a lifelong product.
The Tormek reminds me of the C&H mat cutter I have used in my photography work. The C&H (along with the Fletcher) is a premier quality product. I think both C&H and Fletcher missed a market by manufacturing their smallest cutters sized to be able to cut a forty inch mat. A smaller unit, perhaps designed for twenty inch mats, would have been quite practical for city photographers living in smaller apartments. I believe the real strength of the T4 is its compactness and lighter weight. It brings the Tormek's quiet operation; elimination of grinding dust and sparks; precision jig grinding without danger of ruining the tool by overheating to the apartment dweller and those with limited workshop space. Also, the older I get, the more I appreciate objects which are lighter and easier to move.
I do not believe the T4 will ever replace the workhorse T7. Its increased bulk and weight brings a compensating larger grinding wheel. I suspect most of us, myself included, wouldnever be hampered by the 50% duty motor. My forty year old dry grinder has six inch wheels. If there was not a T7, the T4's eight inch wheels would seem very nice. They are, however, the ten inch wheels cut flatter.
If I was looking to purchase my first Tormek today, choosing between the T4 and T7 would require thought. The pros and cons would come down to an adequately solid compact unit with a smaller grinding wheel compared to a larger, heavier, unit with a larger wheel. The size of my workshop and the volume of my sharpening needs would factor in more than the cost difference. When one includes the cost of the extra jigs acquired along the way, the cost difference between the two choices diminishes.
One notable similarity is both the T4 and T7 have learning curves. Both require skill and experience to produce fine work.
Ken
I note with interest this claim:
"Sharpen your plane irons and chisels with a perfectly square edge"
;)
They just don't say how long it takes ;)