I have recently found 2 Supergrind systems , used, for sale on craigslist. I can't tell from the pictures when they were made, only the general look of the machines, and how much they look like they've been used . (one owner says he's taken 1/2" off his stone). They both are for sale in places too far away for me to go look at them. That means I would have to pay shipping as well. Either system is going for $550, and they both have multiple jigs, including the gouge jig for turners, which is why I am interested in getting one.
My question is this: Is is worth getting one of these two, without actually touching it? Or should I save my $ and get a brand new system ($920! Yikes!) There is a guy nearby me who is selling his very unused T7 with the Handtool jig kit for $625. But I really don't think I need the handtool accessory and to add the turner's kit would bring it up to $900 anyway
I'm tearing my hair out. What would you guys do? Help!!!, Scott D.
That's a tough one Scott. Obviously if the used one is in decent condition then its worth saving the extra money as that will buy a lot of bowl gouges! Can you get reassurance as to its condition by speaking on the phone with the seller or have him send you copious pictures perhaps? We don't really have Craigs List here in the UK in the same way you do on that side of the Atlantic so Im not that familiar with it....can you arrange dialogue with the sellers?
Welcome to the forum, Scott. And, welcome back, Rob.
Scott, just how far away are these two sellers from you? Given the possibility of saving the cost of shipping, if you can drive there and back in a day, I would suggest driving.
The almost new unit with the hand tools jigs is not really a bargain if you do not plan to use them. I think I would narrow the field to either one of the used units with the gouge jig or a new unit with either the gouge jig or the turner's kit.
When you do the pros and cons between used and new, make sure the used units have the stone grader and diamond dresser. Also, the new unit, in addition to the new warrantee, will come with the EZYlock shaft, the latest universal support bar (with micro adjust) and the enhanced water trough. You probably wouldn't miss most of the minor improvements, but will need the grader and diamond dresser.
If you would be ordering a new unit, they are generally available with free shipping. The piece of mind with the warrantee is worth being in the pro side of your consideration.
Rob is much more of a turner than most of us, myself included.
Good luck and keep us posted, either with your decision or more questions.
Ken
Craigslist itself warns us to buy local. Too many scams out there. I agree with Ken that you should consider driving there if a phone conversation gives you confidence that the deal is real.
Of course, if the seller is willing to send it to you and wait until it arrives before getting his money ... :-\
My Anniversary model is being delivered tomorrow.
I bought all the attachments.
Cost me more but I got the latest and should not have any problems.
My son bought me the Tormek.
I saved my money over the last year to purchase a Tormek.
It will be worth the wait.
I heard the new Powder coat will help prevent rust
I saw a lot of used Tormeks that were rusted.
How do you know if the motor has been abused.
Are the warantees transferable?
I have been burned by Craigslist.
I was sold a stolen camera.
Craigslist did not help one bit and neither did the police.
Don't pick up the unit at McDonalds, go to their home.
Using a camera or your cell phone, get a photo of the seller,
his license and his car with license plate.
Buyer be ware of Craigslist, yes there can be great deals if your lucky.
Take a deep breath, exhale and then look on eBarf. Buy from a seller with great feedback. I got what I thought was a good deal on there. Shipping is going to be in the $50 range on this item if it goes any distance at all.
Scott, for $550 plus perhaps another 50 for shipping, you would be getting the Tormek and some jigs for within 40 of the price of the new unit. (free shipping) Minus the security of the new product guarantee)Frankly, that seems too high of a price to me.
The kits do offer a saving. However, they include some items you may or may not need. Ex: the hand tool kit includes the axe and long knife jigs. You would know best which of the turning jigs you really need, at least at first.
If i was a seller and the buyer wanted to photograph my driver's license or as a stranger, come to my house, I would tell him to shop elsewhere. I would recommend you buy new and avoid the risks.
Ken
Thanks for all the responses. The two postings are at minimum 14 hours drive away. That's not worth it in my book to drive.
I think I will just bide my time and buy new like most of you seem to feel is the best idea.
Is the T-3 maybe a good compromise, even with the 30 minute usage limit? Once my tools are sharpened I doubt I would need to use the machine for longer than that if I use it frequently to touch them up. In the beginning, to get them all shipshape, I may need to be patient. But once that's done...
Or is the T-7 really that much better?
That question keeps coming up about the T3, and to my recollection we've never been able to answer it because none of us have one.
I wouldn't pay more than half price for a used Tormek, and that would be only if the machine were in top notch condition.
I don't know how to tell if the motor is worn. The size of the grindstone can indicate the amount of use the machine has had, provided it's the original grindstone.
I think I've decided against the T3 due to the inferior motor thing. But, I have a possibility for a used T7 with the handtool kit for $625. And that one I HAVE seen, and it's in pristine condition. It seems so unused that it'd be like getting the handtool kit for free. It's just used, that's all
When you compare the cost of the T3 with diamond dresser and stone grader ($489) and the T7, which already includes them ($639), that's only a hundred and fifty dollar spread. Considering the T7 is often available with the rotating base thrown in at no extra cost, I would lean toward the T7.
As Herman mentioned, we are not really equipped to answer based on experience with both models, as all of us seem to have the T7. (The T3 is a fairly new product in the US.)
If pressed for a recommendation, I would recommend a new T7. If you want to save some money, find out if one of your local dealers will be having a day with manufacturer's reps demoing equipment. The dealer often has a sale during those days. I bought the two extra wheels and DBS-22 that way and saved 20%, and still had all the benefits of a factory. Check with your dealer.
Ken
Sorry, I was unaware of your last post, Scott. (It posted just before I posted.) You won't regret going with the T7. It's a solid and versatile machine. Be sure to watch the videos on the Tormek website. i especially like the one with the Irish turner and teacher.
Ken
Thank you all for your advice. I look forward to working with a new T7 soon
I'm sure Ill be back with more questions if I can't find the answers already posted. You've been a big help in making my decision
Quote from: ScottDobie on January 16, 2014, 02:08:25 AM
I think I've decided against the T3 due to the inferior motor thing. But, I have a possibility for a used T7 with the handtool kit for $625. And that one I HAVE seen, and it's in pristine condition. It seems so unused that it'd be like getting the handtool kit for free. It's just used, that's all
How old is that particular model Scott? I have to say that, it sounds to me like a very sound machine. If it's relatively new (as it sounds) then it will already have the diamond dressing tool and the stone grader. Your original post expressed concern about adding the cost of the turners jigs....that would push the price up to $900 which would mean you're better off buying new and avoiding the risk. So.......here's my thinking......
It sounds like there is minimal risk of fault with that machine given your (visual first hand) report of its condition...so, essentially, I class that in the same category as a new machine in terms of risk (ie as close to zero). Further, T7's are pretty simple and pretty bullet proof...that's part of their charm. So even if there is something wrong (unlikely) its not going to be a financial disaster as all parts are replaceable. However....you still have the problem of funding the turning jigs. Now, I'm a turner and I can tell you that you wont need all the bits in the jig package. So one option it to buy the jigs separately, theoretically saving the cost of the superfluous items. My take on the stuff you really need for turning is the Torlok toolrest, the articulated gouge jig and the jig for sharpening the wider spindle gouges like a 3/4" roughing gouge (cant remember its name off the top of my head but its the one with an open and closed seat as an option). That little lot will allow you to do everything for spindle and face plate turning pretty much save some specialist bits. The extra stropping wheels are a gimmick and if you're that anal about removing the burr from the inside of your bowl gouge flute then use a piece of fine hand held abrasive wrapped round a suitable sized dowel. The truth is, within one nano second of presenting the tool to the spinning work...that burr is gone anyway. I am yet to meet a professional turner who bothers to deburr the inside of their gouges! Buyer beware! So if I were you I would price up those individual items and then go back to the second hand T7 and negotiate hard on his used price. That way you might come in $200 under the new price and you wont have draws full of obsolete gear.
I don't doubt other folks will differ in their views of whats right and wrong in this but I've been buying second hand tools for many years now and I've never yet bought a duck. The T7 is such a robust built machine that problems with newer machines are rare so they're actually ideal as second hand buys because the risk is relatively low. (Also why they keep their high 2nd hand value).
One thing I agree with....avoid the T3.
If you feel less comfortable with the idea of some risk, buy new and fork out the extra cash for the peace of mind. One things for sure, as a turner you will love the T7 and the jigs I mentioned.....it is a very handy tool indeed.
I offered $500 to the T7 gentleman, but he wouldn't budge from his asking price. Then I offered $500 for the machine alone, and he wouldn't separate the package of the machine & the handtool kit. He didn't want the bother of trying to sell the kit separately (not that I blame him).
So...maybe waiting a few more weeks might make him think the $500 offer wasn't such a bad deal. I'll try that. If it gets sold in the meantime so be it, and then I'm off to buy new.
But your suggestion of buying the jigs separately sounds like a plan. Thanks
By the way Rob...is the jig that you can't remember the name of happen to be the multi-jig (SVS-50) ? I didn't know that the articulated gouge jig wouldn't hold a roughing gouge. Does the multi-jig hold it?
That's the puppy. The articulated jig is designed for tighter radii like those found on spindle and deep fluted bowl gouges. It really comes into its own when you grind fingernail profiles and its absolutely perfectly designed for that. I can literally turn my torso through 90 degrees to the lathe (my sharpening station), mount my bowl gouge in the jig and run three passes over the wheel...it takes a micro amount of steel off the tool and leaves an absolutely perfect single facet bevel every time....and that operation takes 20 seconds....no kidding. I'm back to turning before you can say "blimey those Swedes know a thing or two about edges".
The multi-jig is also really useful. That's my staple for the roughing gouge when doing spindle work. Again, this is fast but not quite as elegant as the articulated jig. In the roughing gouge setup you need to set the universal sppt at a known distance from the wheel which you've pre-determined based on the angle of the bevel you want (mine is 43mm from the wheel). You also need to set how far from the end of the jig the chisel protrudes (75mm for me). There is a turning tool setter that you should also not be without because that has all these distances baked in to make setup quick. If you watch Jeff Farris's instructional video's (youtube) on these jigs you will save yourself a lot of time reading the manuals. I recommend you do that because although Jeff was "Mr Tormek USA" he's also a turner and he knows what he's talking about. Jeff recommends making a spacer block to insert between the universal support and the wheel to speed the setup. I did just that and it makes setup a snap.
With the Torlok toolrest, the 2 gouge jigs and the turning tool setter I'm good for all the gouges and skews and parting tools and scrapers (I don't use jigs for the skews as they're simple to do using the Torlok and then by eye). I never bother with leather honing any turning tools as its just not worth it. Others will argue it is. My thinking on this is common sense, any turning tool is subject to massive forces at its edge, quite incredible in fact, especially roughing gouges. Therefore any finessing of the edge that a honing step might produce is lost within seconds of touching the work piece. In addition, I'm an active member of a turning club and we have guest professional turners regularly demonstrate. I'm yet to find one that hones their chisels and they earn their living from turning. The only people that seem to advocate stropping turning chisels it seems to me also have a vested interest in promoting the sale of the kit! That decision has to be left to the conscience of the individual church go-er :-)
Honing of plane irons and bench chisels I entirely agree with...just not turning tools.
Anyway that's really my ten penneth based on my experiences. The T7 and those jigs are really in a class of their own in terms of accuracy and speed for the touching up of high speed steel. The truth is they make sharpening something I actually look forward to.
Adding up the cost of those jigs separately comes to $12 whole dollars less than the kit. I think I'll just go for the gold here.. At least I'd get an instructional DVD, a machine cover with the kit, plus a "handy storage tray"! Ha!
All of you have been very instrumental into my decision to spend more than I have . ;)
I'm not sure if I should thank you or not!! ;D
But seriously, Thank you all
haha...so the old reverse psychology worked then :-)
Go for it Scott. You wont regret it.
It really is a matter of time verses money.
I picked up the T2000, a few years back, with a few jigs, for $185. The gentleman that sold it to me, was given it by his best friend, who he helped sell his shop when he was dying of cancer. He didn't like it, but didn't realize, he didn't have the stone grader or the diamond stone (makes a difference). Due to life getting in the way (no shop time), an employers medical issue (LOTS of extra hours at work), it was two years, before I was able to get back to it, and buy the parts I wanted (jigs and upgrades but all with fun money).
It was worth the wait. (if it wouldn't have been, I was offered more then I paid for it a few times, prior upgrades)
Now, if I can find time to use the tools and resharpen them again (shop time), I will be happy. Life just keeps getting in the way.
Well as an owner of a SuperGrind 2000 which I have upgraded to T7 Standard, because I already had the 2000.
I would just break down and bite the bullet and buy a new T7.
It is a once in a lifetime decision.
I never regretted purchasing my Tormek nor spending the money to upgrade it to the latest specs.
The Tormek is a serious sharpening machine which can perform wonders if you take the time to learn and perfect your sharpening skills.
I sharpen my metal Lathe Tool bits and my Japanese Chef knives, I can achieve a sharp mirror like finish to any edge.
preparing food or turning metal with a finely crafted edged tool is pure joy.
+1