Can the Tormek diamond wheel dressing tool/jig be used to square up bench grinder wheel using the BGM100?
I dunno. That's a new one on me. The thing is, if the diamond tip breaks off that's an expensive mistake.
Mike, I would be very reluctant to try. I base that on only my gut feeling. The Tormek dresser is designed to work with a wheel revolving at ninety rpm in a water bath. Using it to dress a wheel revolving at 3450 rpm and dry seems asking for disaster.
I use an inexpensive diamond bar purchased from Lee Valley (I'm sure available from many sources) to dress my dry grinder wheels. Before I had that, I used a single point diamond. The diamond bar is easier to use. Dressing by eye is not difficult. In fact, I would probably dress the wheel with a slight crown now. The decreased actual rubbing area allows a cooler grind.
If you should decide to try using the Tormek dresser with a dry wheel, by all means use very very light passes and make sure you have enough cash to replace the diamond part of the jig.
Fortune favors the brave......sometimes.
Ken
Thanks guys. I just wondered. I do have a fairly inexpensive diamond dresser for my bench grinder, but I thought maybe the Tormek one would do an even better job. I don't have the BGM jig yet, but I am thinking about it for the near future. I think using that jig for repairs and shaping would be much faster and also save my Tormek stone from a lot of unnecessary wear. I have a Wolverine jig at present and judging from the pics I could still use it even after mounting the BGM jig. I am thinking about getting the turning kit, or at least the main jigs included in it, but since I'm not doing much turning these days I can wait till Christmas for that . Can those jigs be used for my carving tools also? I would probably buy the various leather honing set at the same time. Do you think they work well?
Mike, I would recommend you view the videos of the use of these special purpose jigs.
Start here http://tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/ and then search YouTube for more.
Every jig has its benefits and drawbacks.
I would use the t bar style dressers too.. I only bought one two weeks ago for £8 and its absolutely great on my dry grinder. I put the usb up really close to the wheel (using the bgm of course) and then just hold it at right angles to the wheel and parallel to the usb by eye. A very light touch is all that's needed to break off the high spots...works a treat and in double quick time.
I have to say I'm really really liking the BGM on the dry grinder, it's a superb solution to sharpening HSS turning tools.
If you get the BGM Mike, you might like to consider pricing the jigs separately to see if you'll save money. It will all depend on which tools you routinely use. I am always sharpening bowl gouges, spindle gouges, round nosed scrapers, a bedan, skew chisels and a parting tool. For that, my setup with a BGM and dry grinder in addition to my Tormek is great with the following jigs:
SVD -185 gouge jig - bowl gouges, some spindle gouges
Torlok Toolrest - scrapers and bedans (plus many other uses)
Multi jig with both closed and open seats - roughing gouge (for spindle work) and parting tools and skew chisels
TTS 100 angle setter for gouges - quick setup for repeating bevel angles on complex grinds
That's my list...I did buy the turning tool set and regret doing so now as it cost over £200. It contains a couple other bits and pieces in that I could have saved money on I believe. For one thing I pretty much don't use the additional leather strops to hone the inside flutes of gouges. My take on the reality of gouge sharpening is that they take an unbelievable battering once they're held to the work...Its like your other post where you were discussing that ultra sharp edge...in my opinion, honing a bowl gouge is overkill given the job its going to do so I never use those extra leather wheels any more.
But the jigs mentioned above are indispensable. They all work on both the tormek and via the BGM the dry grinder. Again, my personal approach is gouges on the tormek because when sharpening a fingernail grind there is quite an eccentric swing to get from one side of the bevel to the other. That makes having a wide wheel like the T7 really useful for avoiding falling off the edge. My dry grinder has smaller width wheels.
I have the torlok toolrest permanently attached to the bgm, set at the angle for my scrapers and I can get a beautiful edge on my scraper, with very useful burr...in about 10 seconds :-)).
I've also deliberately set my three sizes of scraper to the same angle so that setup works for all three and also my bedan. The only setup changes I now need to make are to accommodate the skew and my roughing gouge which I have a custom spacer for to set the usb.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: Rob on July 07, 2013, 08:26:04 PM...in my opinion, honing a bowl gouge is overkill given the job its going to do so I never use those extra leather wheels any more.
I wonder if maybe it's the wood carvers who make more use of those profiled leather wheels.
That's a good point Herman, I can certainly see why a wood carver would get benefit from the mini honing wheels because of course their tools aren't subjected to such impactful mechanical forces like the spinning lathe. In fact, a razor sharp edge is critical to some of the fine work for carvers so I think if carving in on someone's list then those wheels would have a home.
The thing is, they're part of the turning tool set and I think that point Mike made about how long would a razor sharp edge actually last versus a notionally "normally sharp" edge is no more true than at the extreme end, namely turning. Drill bits are probably on a par with turning tools for hard work.
The fact is that any even HSS tool that is used for turning is subjected to immense friction at its edge and the finer that edge, the sooner it will dull.
So I think the contoured strop wheels aren't good value for turners. I never use mine any more. In fact, the very faff required to squirt paste on the wheels, hone, wipe it off etc just keeps you away from the lathe. That is really precious time because the most critical time to sharpen your tools other than at the start is just before the very last cut. That's because the sharper the tool, the better the finish...less sanding (the holy grail for turners). Just as you're getting to the last cut you're typically really in "the zone" and are fully connected to the piece in the art sense. That last cut requires concentration and a deft "feel" where man and material are kind of blended, when you get that right it really is quite an artistic moment. The very last thing I want is to have that zone interrupted by an awkward overly time consuming sharpening process. I want to get back to finishing the project before I "cool down" so to speak. I can get a finish direct off the lathe tools that requires sanding only from 320 grit now....that's easily enough. So I believe this turners package is over marketed just to get premium price. The core jigs are where the value is...the rest is a bit fluffy for my taste
I think those wheels have a role but for me its not in turning. Carving.....entirely plausible
I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion on honing and turning. While it isn't something widely practiced, it has certain applications where it offers an advantage. Specifically, skews and detail gouges really benefit from a highly polished surface. I also polish the top side of my scrapers to a mirror finish and then sharpen the bevel with the stone graded fine. The finer the edge on your scraper, the finer the finish will be on your stock.
Hi Jeff - I also polish the tops of my scrapers (learned that tip from your video :) but not the other tools. The thing is Jeff, I can get a surface straight off the tools that is good enough to sand at 320 plus....that's easily enough for me as a burst with the power sander and I'm done.
So when you say skews etc benefit from a really fine edge....I'm not entirely sure what you mean? Point being that a 320 grit finish with no discernible tool marks is "good enough" to commence sanding. You're not saying that you can avoid sanding altogether are you?
Also I would be interested in your perspective on Mike's point about how long that hard won edge actually lasts. I appreciate a fine edge will mean longer between sharpenings but surely you would agree that edge will be quickly "normalised" when used in turning?
So I guess what I'm arguing is the play-off in effort versus the incremental add in edge quality isn't worth the time for my current situation.
Plus....Jeff...now be honest...you always defend the Tormek way......go on admit it 8)
Jeff That sounds like good advice. I have never honed a scraper and polish the top, but i can see the possible benefits since it is a finishing tool. I do always hone my skew to a fine edge. As for the detail gouges, I have always used then straight from the bench grinder, but it would be worth a try to hone them as they are usually used in places which are hard to sand without softening the edges and that might eliminate the sanding altogether.
Rob Looking at the turning set, I see that there are some things there like the machine cover for instance which I wouldn't buy as I will be making my own cover, and a couple of other items which I couldn't get to excited about. I do a little wood carving and it seemed to me that a lot of the tools in the that kit would also be useful to sharpen my carving tools. I have to admit that I hate sharpening carving tools, probably because I'm not very good at it. Thats where the various leather honing wheels would come in handy too and I could also try them on my small gouges. I can see that I have to keep an open mind as other's experience and advice rolls in to get the full benefit from my Tormek.
Herman Thanks. I have been looking at all those videos and also the Youtube ones with Jeff. I am learning from them and I will be rewatching them for every new jig before I actually use them.
Ken Thanks, I will take your advice.
Careful Mike....you're sitting so perfectly on the fence you may get splinters up your..... 8)
seriously though....given you have carving tools those extra wheels may really benefit you because those tools don't work nearly so hard.
Also, of course try honing your turning tools...report your progress here. One thing the tormek supports really well is many different approaches.
I am pretty skeptical when it comes to sharpening turning tools Rob as I have been at it for quite a few years now, but I don't want to miss out on something good by not trying it out. The carving tools are
actually my main motivation for being interested in the turning tools jigs. I am aware though that HSS steel has got to be pretty time consuming to hone, and if I'm going to hone I first have to sharpen, so the
whole thing does seem time consuming. That said, I am willing to give it a try just to confirm my suspicions if for no other reason. I'll let you know sometime after Christmas which is the earliest I would be
buying these additional jigs, so please don't hold your breath in anticipation!
You will be very pleasantly surprised with the turning tool jigs Mike. In my opinion they are the very best value you can get from the tormek. I am a particular fan of the articulated gouge jig because I use gouges a lot. It is a quite brilliant invention with huge control over bevel angles and repeatability.
I also find that sharpening with that jig is an absolute breeze. It really truly isn't time consuming at all. It is in fact incredibly fast and incredibly accurate. You will have a treat sharpening with them, its the polishing I'm not convinced of. The edge you get off the grindstone at 1000 grit is really good, especially if your last pass is a very gentle one. To my mind that's almost like taking the grit to an even higher level. Polishing I have no doubt adds an extra incremental bit of excellence...and perhaps for a goblet stem or something really fine then that's appropriate. But for general lathe work I believe that extra little bit of edge is overkill. It would be interesting to see how a carving tool behaves though.
I see your point Rob. Sharpening, not honing. Sounds like a plan. I have to admit that a lot of steel goes to waste with the bench grinder as opposed to a finer stone like the Tormek has. I think I shortened my bowl gouge at least an inch trying to learn a side grind and I wound up getting the Wolverine jig anyway because it still wasn't as good as I wanted, although it cut pretty good I couldn't take the ugliness of it after seeing all the nice ones in books and videos. As for carving tools, The leather honing wheel and extra leather disks should do a very good job on carving tools. Normally the bevels are blended into the shape of the blade and I think the the smooth stone and honing wheel would make that easy to do, although mine are already done. I don't do a lot of carving partly because I've been a little lazy about keeping them sharp enough and also pain in my hands. Maybe I will do a little more carving if it's not so time consuming to keep keen edge on the tools. I like to carve on some of my turnings. I have a nice 3" thick Linde wood plank that should be nice to turn and carve. I'm thinking something old looking, maybe a an ale mug design made from staves and held together with willow bands.
That sounds nice Mike.
I've only ever carved one thing in my life which was a rose to go on the two ends of a fireplace surround (just under the mantle). My mate carved the other side. Did enjoy it though and we used carpenters chisels for the leaves :-) All hand sharpened on oil stones as I recall.
I'm not a turner, but I've always considered those turning tool jigs the jewel in the Tormek crown. I feel that by not being a turner I'm not able to take full advantage of my Tormek.
Maybe I need to find some turner friends and sharpen their tools for them. :)
Or better yet Herman, buy yourself a lathe. You can get a nice small lathe with all the good stuff like variable speed 12" swing (diameter capacity) mini or midi lathe at a very reasonable price nowadays. Turning is fun, you might enjoy it.
Carving can widen the scope of turning designs and make the work more interesting. The carving doesn't have to be fantastic either. Here's a piece I decorated with a repetitive chip carving pattern. It was a little boring so I did the carving work over a period of a couple of weeks just spending a little time each day I spent working on it.
(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu199/mikego/185909-97x65.jpg) (http://s647.photobucket.com/user/mikego/media/185909-97x65.jpg.html)
Very nice Mike. I can actually feel the inexorable pull of carving to be honest. I turn quite a lot of magic wands for the kids fairs and I frequently use a dremel with a diamond burr to create flutes or holes etc....its just a carver with a motor basically. I think carving and I are inevitable partners at some point. Trouble is I'm rubbish at drawing, general art etc so I've always assumed I'll be useless at it and that's kept me away I think. Not my usual positive minded approach I admit but I've always shied away from anything too arty farty. Turning is about as arty as I get....though I absolutely love the creative process inherent in turning.
I'm not very creative and I can't draw either Ron, but there are lots of books with carving out there. Chip carving can be done relatively easily and a reasonable skill level can be attained fairly fast. You only need one chip carving knife for most patterns. You can use an entire pattern or just a part of one and you can repeat the pattern over and over just to get some interesting textures. Chip carving that is well done can be very nice and the patterns need not be too complicated or difficult to cut. The most important thing with chip carving is a very sharp knife, and you can get that quite easily on your Tormek and follow-up with the honing wheel to maintain your edge.
The reason that I started carving on my turnings was that for a long time I didn't have access to a lot of figured woods, and plain woods don't always make for interesting turnings, so it was a simple way for me to improve the scope of my work. Another thing I do on occasion with plain white wood turnings on occasion is to dye them black or some other deep color and carve a shallow design with my 'V' tool. This is easy to do and it can be very effective due to the contrast between the dark background and the white wood. A lot of fun and it does require and special skills. The nicest turnings to carve are end grain turnings because the walls are all side grain and therefore carve very nicely. You still have to pay attention to the grain direction as you carve though.
I also plan to experiment a little with marquetry on some turned items, but using thicker woods, not veneer for the work. I'm thinking this might work well on glued up stave vessels. Worth a try anyway!
Quote from: Rob on July 08, 2013, 09:38:34 AM
So when you say skews etc benefit from a really fine edge....I'm not entirely sure what you mean? Point being that a 320 grit finish with no discernible tool marks is "good enough" to commence sanding. You're not saying that you can avoid sanding altogether are you?
That's exactly what I'm saying. On long grain projects (trunk of tree parallel to lathe bed) I rarely if ever sand.
QuoteAlso I would be interested in your perspective on Mike's point about how long that hard won edge actually lasts. I appreciate a fine edge will mean longer between sharpenings but surely you would agree that edge will be quickly "normalised" when used in turning?
In a week long class at Craft Supplies in Provo three of us were sharpening with Tormek and 5 guys were sharpening with dry grinders and Wolverine jigs. I encouraged the other two guys (who didn't know beforehand that I was going to be there) to take their skews and spindle gouges to a polish. We sharpened once to the dry grinders' three times and spent about 1/3 the time sanding that they did. That's over a week, doing both spindles and bowls. Made a couple converts that week.
QuotePlus....Jeff...now be honest...you always defend the Tormek way......go on admit it 8)
Not entirely true. Tormek would prefer that I promote the use of the jigs when honing, which I rarely do, preferring freehand honing. Similarly, I find the use of jigs for small knives and axes to be cumbersome, and say so. These are just a couple examples of where my advice strays from "the company line".
I can second what Jeff said about no sanding with the skew Ron. A well sharpened skew can leave a beautiful finished surface which is so smooth that it is shiny. I always hone my skew to a very fine edge. I have occasionally gotten a similar finish with a small gouge, but only after resharpening and only on the rare occasion. Maybe the Tormek will change my luck.
well...give it a whirl and report back....now you have no excuse for not getting those jigs Mike :-)
It's Rob Mike...not Ron :-)
Yes I need those jigs badly Rob. Sorry about the misspell, I saw it after posting and there doesn't seem to be any edit function. I'll have to start using preview more. Talking about skews we had a local guy doing some demonstrations in my turners club some years ago who could do about anything with a skew and he left a perfect polished surface every time. He could do quite tight coves with the tip. He was using a thin oval skew for that work. I haven't even tried doing that.
If you look at a post you've submitted within the thread you'll notice it has a little modify button on the right hand side, that's the edit function.
I use a skew on its end to do coves too...brilliant for that. Clearly however I have some way to go in getting the perfect finish.
Thanks Rob. I try to find that button on this reply. OK, found it. I think I must be slightly dyslexic since I often have difficulty finding stuff like that. I get a lot of teasing from the family for it.
no worries Mike :-)
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on July 08, 2013, 10:54:28 PM
I'm not a turner, but I've always considered those turning tool jigs the jewel in the Tormek crown. I feel that by not being a turner I'm not able to take full advantage of my Tormek.
Maybe I need to find some turner friends and sharpen their tools for them. :)
Whats stopped you trying turning then Herman?
Oh and congrats to Mike.....junior member now....keep those posts rolling in 8)
A second for Rob's congrats, Mike. When I started on this forum about four years ago, no one (except Jeff) had fifty posts. I vaguely recall Ionut being the first to reach fifty, although it might have been Herman. I was second or third.
By the way, the most replies for the top ten posts were around twenty. How things have grown!
Keep up the good work, Mike!
Ken
Wow, I just started here and I've already been promoted! Thanks for the recognition Rob and Ken. At my age it is wonderful to be called junior. Makes me feel young again. Seriously, I am enjoying these discussions and I have already learned some new things from you guys. If I don't expire from garden work first, I might even be able to put some of it to use! My wife the garden boss did say she would let sharpen the hedge shears, so there is still hope.
ah hedge shears....there's loads of threads on those :-)
I'll look those up, thanks Rob.