Phew.....decided it was time to do my favourite skew chisel today. Despite using the blackstone as well....a good hour passed and a lot of finger pressure. I ended up trueing the wheel four times to get it unglazed enough to really move metal. (I had it vertically mounted for max steel removal too)
No matter how hard I regraded the stone with the grader, it glazed in seconds once you put the skew back on. It was painstaking to be honest. In fairness, this was one of Dad's ancient chisels that was completely knackered so it was a total regrind for both bevels.
But....the Tormek.....sharpening...brilliant....shaping....its a real bellyache for anything hard and wide. After this I'm dreading doing the planar blades again! Despite having invested in the blackstone. I honestly cant say Im noticing anything different about its cutting ability. Depressed.
When things like this happen, I think about checking the basics. I apologize if this is a stupid question, but you are changing out the water in the trough, right?
The only other thing I can think of is a defective grindstone. Have you sharpened other tools with it?
How often do you change the water?
Whenever it gets dirty. :)
I definitely rinse out the trough after every sharpening session. The only time I do it during a session is if it's a long one or if I have to true the grindstone.
That's pretty much identical to my routine too
Saw this post and I'm having the same issue, if not worse. I purchased a Henry Taylor skew. Previously tried grinding it sharp with a high speed grinder but wasn't confident with my ability to do so, so I purchased the Tormek with woodturning kit. Sharpened my gouges, and chisels, and they seemed ok, the chisels especially. But the skew is actually worse now than when i first purchased it. The metal just doesn't come off. I have trued the wheel several times, changed the water, regraded the wheel umpteen times, but nothing. My fingers got that sore after 4 hours of pressing the skew to the wheel, I finally decided to take drastic measures and although this doesn't sound like the most wise move, I managed to strap the skew to the wheel in such a way that I could leave the tool grinding away for 10 hours, checking on it every half hour. It's not even ground one side down!
I like the tormek and I like the fact that I can safely and accurately sharpen my tools, but this whole skew chisel issue has left me a little concerned that I have spent a great deal of money on a machine that isn't performing as promised. I must add that I am trying to reshape the skew, not sharpen it. But to sharpen it, I must reshape it first. The enclosed DVD states that reshaping can take time, but surely this is ridiculous. I'm sure nobody wants to spend a whole day on one skew chisel.
Has any body else experienced this, or could it be user error. I have contacted the supplier but not really getting a satisfactory response.
It sounds to me like you're glazing the wheel quickly like I did with mine. Once that wheel loses its abrasive quality...no amount of pushing or strapping of the tool will improve things. You have to re-grade the wheel to get it cutting again.
Now the received wisdom on this forum is that you can use the stone grader. Jeff advocates aggressive use of it....using the corners of the rough side...and frequently.
For my own part, I've done this till I'm blue in the face and have pushed it so hard into the wheel that I've actually stopped the wheel! It never re-dresses the stone anywhere near as well as using the diamond truing tool. So now if I'm reshaping a large surface area HSS tool like a skew, I re-diamond true literally every 2 minutes or so to keep it cutting.
That does work (after a fashion) but it's a bellyache and it really burns your stone fast which aren't cheap consumables.
I've now reached the conclusion that for any tool with a lot of surface area that needs reshaping rather than re-sharpening, that the Tormek is not fit for purpose. I'm rather sad to have to report this because at sharpening it is truly excellent. But to expect to take even 1 hour on grinding any tool is unacceptable to me. For turning gouges, fingernail grinds, its brilliant. I converted 3 factory ground bowl gouges into deep fingernail grinds in about 1.5 hours....I'm happy with that. I assume its because those edges have relatively small surface area, ergo not much metal being ground, ergo it doesn't glaze the wheel so fast. Also I think the articulated bowl gouge jig helps the operator to apply pressure on the edge whereas with a skew its hand pressure....no leverage.
The truth is I dread reshaping anything like a skew now and in fact generally avoid it on the Tormek. One suggestion that's come up here before is to use a separate hand held (after market) diamond wheel dresser and just hold it against the wheel to de-glaze it. Then you don't need to go to the trouble of re-truing with the tt-50 all the time (which is a drag and inefficient in terms of effort)
Quote from: Daedalus on June 09, 2013, 11:04:42 PM
I like the tormek and I like the fact that I can safely and accurately sharpen my tools, but this whole skew chisel issue has left me a little concerned that I have spent a great deal of money on a machine that isn't performing as promised. I must add that I am trying to reshape the skew, not sharpen it. But to sharpen it, I must reshape it first.
Have you tried a dry grinder to do the lion's share of the shaping? Just keep a bucket of water handy and keep dipping the steel in the water to keep it from overheating.
It sounds to me like you've got a chisel made of tungsten carbide steel, or something like that. You may need a diamond wheel to shape or sharpen it. Is there a local sharpening service you can contact?
Quote from: Rob on June 10, 2013, 01:21:18 AM
One suggestion that's come up here before is to use a separate hand held (after market) diamond wheel dresser and just hold it against the wheel to de-glaze it. Then you don't need to go to the trouble of re-truing with the tt-50 all the time (which is a drag and inefficient in terms of effort)
I'd like to hear from someone who has tried this. I haven't had a glazed-over grindstone to try it on! Mine seems to need truing long before it ever gets glazed over. After truing the diamond wheel dresser does a nice job of smoothing the surface so that you can go right to work on tools needing a fine edge.
Jeff recommends finding a chisel that needs squaring, or some similar task, to smooth out a freshly-trued grindstone, but I find I can get around that with the diamond wheel dresser.
Further to my last post...
The skew I'm having problems with is a Henry Taylor HS21 3/4 inch high speed steel chisel.
I'm disappointed that the Tormek is pants at shaping but I am pleased with the sharpening of the tools that I managed to sharpen. With reference to dry grinding, I'm going to take my skew to axminster who will shape it on a dry grinder using the tormek kit for dry grinders. This is the only way. It's disappointing that having spent all that money on a tool to sharpen I might have to purchase a tool to shape. The reason I purchased the tormek was because I don't like using the fast grinders, hence why I'm taking it to axminster. I think in future, as I buy my chisels from Axminster, I'll get them to shape it in the shop using the tormek jig on the dry grinder and then I only have to sharpen it when required. Frustrating that I have to do it this way as it will cost me a few quid each time I need the dry grind, but I'd rather pay a few quid to get it sorted rather than spend a whole weekend trying to sharpen one tool!
It'll be interesting to know whether anyone else has the Henry Taylor skews and wether or not they have been shaped and sharpened purely on the tormek. I'm thinking of asking axminster to try to shape it purely on their tormek to see if they get the same issue.
I didn't know Axy did a shaping service. That's useful information. So you're saying that Axy have the Tormek jig setup on a dry grinder (it's the BGM 100 or some such??).
I've not seen that in action but I guess it makes sense if you want the speed of dry grinding plus the control of the jigs. That might be another solution for me as I have the jigs already. I'll have a gander down at the High Wycombe branch and ask...I'm due a trip for more sanding discs and wax anyway. Cheers
Not sure if all Axmister shops sharpen tools, but Warrington does. Best to check first. They have a dry grinder with the bgm 100 ( I think ). They shape the tools with that if necessary then tranfer the tool to the Tormek to get it sharp as possible. Having the dry grinder with the bgm 100 would probably solve all my problems but I don't have the room for another grinder or the budget. And I'd probably only be buying it for the skew, which I hate using anyway! :-) So the axminster solution is best for me. But I am gonna ask them to try to shape the skew on the tormek first to see if I'm doing something wrong, or to make sure the chisel isn't hardened in anyway.
The BGM-100 looks like it should be a cheap and easy way to do it yourself.
http://tormek.com/international/en/accessories/other-accessories/bgm-100-bench-grinder-mounting-set/
This video is a nice illustration of the set up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j46grxNMsmo
It looks like he's got an aluminum oxide grinding wheel. They're supposed to run a lot cooler.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10088&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PLA&gclid=CKr22_yU27cCFVNp7AodOC8ATA
I think that's the way to go. If Tormek are paying Alan Holtham to demo the bgm-100 then the "games up" with respect to shaping...they're basically admitting its not fit for purpose. So the question now is which dry grinder do I buy? Whats the pro's and cons's with respect to dry grinders. I have an ancient one but that wont do.
What sort of wheel should it have, what diameter etc etc. Anyone?
Rob, my dry grinder is a forty year old Sears with six inch wheels. It has served me well enough. I have a Norton 3X 46 grit wheel on one side. The other side, which has not been used since I purchased a Tormek, has a Norton80 grit white wheel. I have thought about swapping it out for a rust removing plastic wheel.
If I was buying a dry grinder today, I would probably buy an eight inch slow speed Baldor. I would swap out one of the wheels with the Norton 3X 46 grit wheel. Probably a finer, maybe 80 grit for the second side, although not a priority.
A new Baldor would probably cost as much as a Tormek. I would buy it for the same reason; Baldor makes a quality product. I don't know what the equivalent would be in the UK. Overkill? Probably.
Do I actually plan to purchase a new dry grinder? No. My old one suffices for my needs. Especially since I also have an old belt grinder. Between a dry grinder and a belt grinder, I would lean toward the belt grinder first. Mine cuts very fast. It would require some thought to modify it with a BGM-100. I would look into the Multitool belt grinder Sharptools has for sale. It looks like a solid product, and might work with your old dry grinder, at least temporarily.
Is Tormek throwing in the towel with shaping by selling the BGM-100? Or are they trying to extend their market to those who already have a dry grinder and would like to use the Tormek jigs? I could see many of this market starting with the BGM-100 and jigs and eventually buying a T7. Not a bad marketing strategy.
I have not tried reshaping with my Tormek. I have watched Jeff reshape a gouge on the turning DVD. While not super quick, it did not seem that arduous a task. Is the problem the tool or the technique?
Ken
Gouges are OK Ken...its skews and planar blades that are just out of its league. Basically its the combination of HSS coupled with a large surface area. It simply takes too long. This is not a user error...because the stone cuts again after truing. It just glazes too fast....the material is too hard for the grade of stone. I love the jigs and I love the tormek for sharpening...cant live without it. But for shaping....I'm done and I'm going to get either a belt or dry grinder with a really low grit wheel. I like your 46 grit idea. Those Norton wheels get great reviews and I also like the idea of the bgm 100 to re deploy my investment in jigs
Interesting point, Rob. I assume the planer blades may require grinding away some nicks, rather than being what Ian Kirby might call merely "blunt". That would involve removing a lot more metal.
Reshaping a skew chisel would also involve removing a LOT of metal. It would be nice of you could use a friend's or Axminster's belt grinder with a coarse belt to see how well it worked.
My experience with the Norton 46 grit wheel has only been with carbon steel. I could try it with one of the odd metal lathe bits I have.
When I set up my photographic darkroom, I made the decision that I wanted to be able to do most things in house. I specialized in black and white work. I had occasion to need 16x20 color prints a few times. It seemed more cost efficient to send them out rather than add the equipment to do them in house. Reshaping a high speed skew or removing planer blade nicks may be cases where it is more cost effective to send the work out. That doesn't mean that touch up sharpening couldn't remain in house.
I have noticed that Lie-Nielsen now offers their wood chisels in O1 carbon steel as well as A2. The A2 can hold an edge longer (at certain bevel angles). The O1 is easier to sharpen with regular sharpening equipment. L-N must have felt many customers preferred ease of sharpening to edge longevity. Maybe our steel has gotten beyond the range of our sharpening tools.
Do keep us posted on this.
Ken
Quote from: Rob on June 11, 2013, 02:26:50 PM
I think that's the way to go. If Tormek are paying Alan Holtham to demo the bgm-100 then the "games up" with respect to shaping...they're basically admitting its not fit for purpose.
I think Tormek is
paying for that promotion of the BGM-100!
It's an admission of the limitations of its wet grinder, but it's also a promotion of it!!
Quote from: Ken S on June 11, 2013, 11:09:06 PM
Rob, my dry grinder is a forty year old Sears with six inch wheels. It has served me well enough. I have a Norton 3X 46 grit wheel on one side. The other side, which has not been used since I purchased a Tormek, has a Norton80 grit white wheel. I have thought about swapping it out for a rust removing plastic wheel.
Do you prefer that to the wire brush wheel?
QuoteIf I was buying a dry grinder today, I would probably buy an eight inch slow speed Baldor. I would swap out one of the wheels with the Norton 3X 46 grit wheel. Probably a finer, maybe 80 grit for the second side, although not a priority.
That would be a nice set up. Near the end of the video Alan mentions a set up using two BGM-100's, one on each side of the grinder.
Throw in a couple T7's, with one of each of the three Tormek grindstones, and you'd have first-rate sharpening center. :o
QuoteI have not tried reshaping with my Tormek. I have watched Jeff reshape a gouge on the turning DVD. While not super quick, it did not seem that arduous a task. Is the problem the tool or the technique?
Or is it the steel?
Quote from: Ken S on June 12, 2013, 03:07:06 AM
Maybe our steel has gotten beyond the range of our sharpening tools.
I think it has, Ken. As you know tungsten carbide steel is so hard it requires diamonds to sharpen it.
Steels keep getting harder, requiring more expensive and varied types of abrasives.
Thanks for those responses chaps...very interesting debate this. I too (Ken) have thought it might be just easier to outsource the really tricky tools to avoid the capital investment cost in equipment and in terms of planar blades, I think that's my conclusion.
With skew and other tricky wood turning high speed steel I really couldn't forgive myself for failing to handle those in house. Not rational I know but it seems somehow wrong to send out a poxy skew chisel :-)
But I think Herman's hit the nail on the head with the hardness of modern day steel. We seem to have reached a tipping point where we value edge retention over anything else. It almost seems to be going in the direction of disposable because once you get to carbide, you're done without industrial strength equipment. That LN idea of a choice of softer steel appears to be a reaction to this to an extent.
One solution could simply be that I get all my skews that I want to reshape (five belonged to my Father) and have a service do the grunt work. Then I keep them honed thereafter on the Tormek.
I'd be interested to see if your Norton 46 grit can make a dent in that High speed steel Ken. If you fancy conducting that experiment it would really help corroborate the dry grinder approach.
And, Herman...I love the idea of a bank of grinders....sort of sharpening HQ :-) I'm sure Tormek's marketing folks would love that!
Herman,
When I bought the Norton 80 grit white wheel, it was a big improvement over the hard gray wheels which came with the grinder. It definitely runs cooler than the harder gray wheels. (The binder is the difference. In the white wheels the binder is softer and breaks down more quickly. This exposed fresh sharp grits. It also wears the wheel more quickly.)
In fairness to it, it would be a better tool in hands more experienced than mine were then.
Sorry, my grandson is awake. I have to close now.
Ken
Hey guys,
While I will admit that shaping a skew is my least favorite job on a Tormek, it isn't impossible. This discussion has hit most of the most important methods, but I want to reinforce those and add a couple that have been missed.
1) Work in the vertical orientation.
2) Regrade the wheel with the coarse side frequently and aggressively.
3) If your wheel is stalling, clean the drive wheel with a bit of 80 grit sandpaper.
Not previously mentioned
4) Work at the edges of the stone, with half the width of the skew off the stone. Effectively doing half the job at a time. The reduced contact area speeds material removal.
5) Sharpen your skew with a radius. This profile, preferred by Richard Raffan and Alan Lacer, comes together much faster, because, like a gouge, the contact area at any one point in time is very small.
that's interesting Jeff. Good tips there. You know I did complete the reshaping of the skew...so it's not that it cant be done...just took too long...sore fingers etc.
Those techniques are very cunning...keep as little steel on the stone as possible to reduce surface area...why didn't I think of that!!
I think I will radius one of my skews actually, but I still need at least 2 straight ones for creating quick bevel type cuts in spindle work (I make magic wands for the local school fair).
I have been cheating while I sort this out by simply offering the old skews by eye....getting close and leaning on the USB...then just grinding a micro bevel free hand right at the tip. Not pretty or a uniform bevel but at least the very edge is razor sharp. Since that's all that's cutting....it seems to work fine without all the sweat. That's just freehanding so a hell of a lot quicker than any other method too :-)
Good thoughts, Jeff. I remember Ernie Conover kept a narrow wheel on his ten inch Baldor grinder. Another thought, I believe going back to one of the Iles, is dressing a crown on your wheel to nessen the contact area. That might work better with narrower dry grinder wheels. I like Jeff's idea of working on half at a time.
Maybe I am fortunate that my grandfather left me two skews of the garden variety Sears kind with carbon steel.
Rob, what are the starting and ending points of your skew makeovers?
With the planer blades, I assume we are talking about enough grinding to remove nicks rather than just restoring a slightly dull edge. Many of us may already have a belt sander/disk sander in the shop. (mine is presently not operational yet.) Tom Lie-Nielsen writes about having sharpened many plane blades on his belt sander. It might be possible to do some preliminary grinding this way. Grind the nicked bevel at a right angle first. Maybe start a rough bevel with the belt sander. Then switch to the tormek for the final grinding. Just an idea.
I will try a lathe bit on my 46 grit wheel and belt grinder.
One thing I wish we had on this forum was input from the engineering department in Sweden. Several years we had a post by a guy who tried using his dry grinding wheel on the Tormek. He claimed some success, but has not posted since. That idea has always fascinated me. What I would like to read is whether or not Tormek has considered a much coarser wheel. If they have, has it not been produced for technical or economic reasons?
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 12, 2013, 04:04:01 PM
One thing I wish we had on this forum was input from the engineering department in Sweden. Several years we had a post by a guy who tried using his dry grinding wheel on the Tormek. He claimed some success, but has not posted since. That idea has always fascinated me. What I would like to read is whether or not Tormek has considered a much coarser wheel. If they have, has it not been produced for technical or economic reasons?
Ken
It has been tested pretty much non-stop for the 20 or so years I've been associated with the company. A very coarse wheel presents a couple problems. First and foremost, it's a "one-trick pony". Anything that can cut very fast has no other function. Tormek has built its reputation on the flexibility of the SG stone and prefers that approach. The next most significant problem is stone wear. Given the bonding methods necessary for the water bath, a very coarse stone wears very, very quickly.
Rob,
Given what you've written in your last response, take a look at a negative rake scraper. That's essentially how you're using your skew. A negative rake scraper (which you can create from any scraper) will give you that simple, straight and relatively clean cut you're getting from the skew and hold up better to the use.
Thanks Jeff, I'll take a look at the scrapers you suggest. To embellish a bit more on these wands I make...they're riddled with fine detail which is essentially around coves and beads and every possible permutation thereof. Because the stock is very thin and typically about 17" long...they start to really vibrate once I'm in the middle (between centres of course).
The skews are incredibly useful for cutting these fine details and need to be really sharp or I risk snapping them. The kids school fair is 2 weeks away so I'm in full production mode right now and hope to produce around 50 of varied design. I can do about three an hour if I really focus, two is more normal. The Tormek is right by my side.
I've even got a recipe for my freehanding of (one of) the skews after today...I set the usb to 43mm (for my 3/4" roughing gouge) using a spacer block a la Jeff's instructions....then using that protrusion I know if I lean the ferrule of the chisel on the usb and eyeball the 90 degree offer against the wheel I'll get a real fast grind of the tip. This micro bevel is exactly like a bench plane iron and works a treat. I hone it on the strop to get the burr off because when that oak wand is spinning...any rough edge just exaggerates the wobble and vibration. I'll find some pics and wack them up later.
Thanks for the advice anyway Jeff and Ken.
Jeff. Excellent answer.
Thanks,
Ken
some of the wands I'm skewing
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch2_zpsab63f869.jpg)
Quote from: Rob on June 12, 2013, 08:56:03 AM
We seem to have reached a tipping point where we value edge retention over anything else. It almost seems to be going in the direction of disposable because once you get to carbide, you're done without industrial strength equipment.
The vast majority of casual users of edge tools and cutlery rarely, if ever, bother with sharpening.
Our local sharpening service no longer does hand saws. My guess is that the newer saws can't really be sharpened. The tips of the cutting teeth are hardened to the point that they're brittle. They don't break off because only the very tips of the teeth are hardened.
We're starting to see the long-promised developments of surface physics.
Rob, would you please post some info on your father's skews? I'm starting to think he used some worn out files. (a common practice) If he did, and didn't reheat them, you are certainly a devoted son to try to reshape them!
Ken
ps.....Nice looking wands. Well turned.
Ken
What an interesting idea...worn out files....I've never come across that but I can see why people would have modified them in days gone by before a tool catalogue on every website etc.
No they are definitely early but "proper" turning tools. Henry Taylor and Robert Sorby mostly...maybe a record or two. All made in Sheffield, the heart of what was once the British steel industry....mostly gone now except for some specialists.
I'll take some snaps and post them and you can see the stat of the bevels yourself :-)
Here's some rather appauling pics but will hopefully convey what I'm babbling on about.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch1_zpsf25ee18d.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch2_zps0950795d.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch4_zps82c72011.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch5_zpsc80aac0e.jpg)
This ones rubbish...it was trying to show how I've free-handed the bevel enough to create a micro bevel just on the edge of the edge (excuse poor grammar).
The notes on the shank help me to position it using the usb without a jig so I can get some consistency. You know I'm constantly surprised and rewarded by how accurate an eyeball'd measurement can be. I appreciate this isn't a neat and tidy bevel but the edge is easily straight enough for practical purposes with the job in hand. I guess that chap trying to plan his curly maple has an altogether different problem in terms of the job in hand. The trick is to create an edge which is fit for purpose I guess depending on what you'll use it for.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch6_zps042c245f.jpg)
Slightly better but not much...should have used a white background
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch7_zpsc72b8b4a.jpg)
OK...though out of focus, you can see the micro bevel clearly now. So this is one I've done. Next up is a monster that doesn't even have a handle...that I haven't done...gotta be nearly 2" wide
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/byoomholay/resizebatch8_zpsa82c7cc5.jpg)
This is the big one...you can see that Dad (around 30 years ago) last did it with a stone I gues....bevels all over the place. That's one I'd like to regrind completely...preferably using the BGM-100 on a Norton or equivalent 46 type grit stone. And to that end I'm getting a 2nd hand record 6" grinder this weekend for not much
Rob, You have a labor of love ahead of you. I had the same pleasure restoring my grandfather's 1891 Stanley jack plane.
You might enjoy this book:
http://conoverworkshops.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CWOS&Product_Code=4345&Category_Code=HS8
I have taken many classes with Ernie Conover over the years. You may remember the Conover lathes. Ernie and his father designed and built them. He is also a fine teacher and a no slouch woodworker.
Best of luck with your restoration. Keep us posted, and let us know what you think of the Norton 46 grit wheel.
Ken
Rob, as promised, I tried grinding on a metal lathe bit with my belt grinder and the dry grinder with the Norton 3X 46 grit stone. i'm not exactly what alloy the lathe bit is, but it's a fairly certain bet than it's at least M2 high speed steel.
The belt grinder did OK. Normally for a project like this I would have used a fresh belt. The belt was slightly worn. i am convinced it would do a satisfactory job.
The Norton 46 grit stone did very well. I used only moderate pressure. I think you will like it. As I stated earlier, my dry grinder is a 40 year old six inch Sears Craftsman. it's probably very much like your Record.
I wonder if using the dry grinder with the 46 grit stone would speed up sharpening planer blades. presumably one would need to remove nicks. If the nicks were removed with the blade held at a right angle and some of the approximate bevel restored with the dry grinder, the operation could be completed on the Tormek. The dry grinder would have already done much of the "heavy lifting".
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 17, 2013, 03:20:42 AM
The dry grinder would have already done much of the "heavy lifting".
That's essentially the concept I use when shaping a badly worn mower blade or one that needs the edge angle reduced. It saves time and frustration.
I find that if I switch back and forth between dry grinder and Tormek it keeps the edge from overheating.
Thanks for that chaps. Your posts have been really useful. Well, I got the 2nd hand Record this weekend from a lovely wood turner chap I met on a different forum. Another wood turner only about a half hour drive from me (love the Internet for connecting special interest groups like that). I digress!
The dry grinder is a little gem...6" wheels, one white and quite friable and the other a pink O Donnell wheel which I think is tuned to HSS turning type tools. No tool rests or eye guards but the motor is sound and the wheels are fine. No idea what grit they are either because the chap who owned it had also forgotten.....the blind leading the blind so to speak :-)
Mounted it on a board to dampen vibration and clamped that to my bench. I've got one of those little t bar diamond dressers now that Herman recommended yonks ago and I have to say they're brilliant. Only paid £8 for it too...nice.
I offered up that big bad 2" skew that I pictured the other day....with the gnarly bevel and......it just ate it for breakfast!! Fantastic. It's great having spent so much time on the Tormek because you develop a sort of "feel" for how hard to present a blade. I quickly found out that too much pressure or for too long starts the loss of temper (blueing) which of course the old T7 avoids completely. Simply light pressure, side to side movement and frequent cold water bath dunks did it easily. I improvised a wooden jig (rest at the right height and marked the shank of the tool for protrusion control). Then just freehanded it. Amazingly fast steel removal....what a difference!
So last night I ordered the BGM-100 and that sucker will be attached to the dry grinder by the weekend. Then I may have another crack at the planar blades!!!!
I also like the idea you both discuss about squaring off a nicked blade until you reach the end of the nick...then change the angle to grind the bevel. I've never done that but it just sounds intuitively a good way to do it.
In all cases....my plan is to shape on the BGM setup and sharpen on the tormek. But I have to say...I'm extremely impressed with the speed of steel removal...was starting to think that was a holy grail...happy chap again :-)
Rob,
I mounted my dry grinder on a board (3/4 standard plywood). It now lives on a heavy duty metal shelf. It is easy to pull it out and set it on a bench. It is just as easy to return it to the shelf. It's quite practical.
Make sure you wear good eye protection!!!!
I'll put the wheel dressing in the Ashley Iles post in Hand Tool Woodworking.
The grit size should be included in the long alphanumeric description on the side of your wheels.
Good luck with your venture in Dry Land.
Ken
Just a couple notes on quenching.
If the tool is high speed steel, don't quench, even if you turn it cherry red. Quenching makes HSS brittle and you'll get micro-fractures in the steel. It won't actually "crack", but its edge durability will be damaged.
In normal tool steels, if you quench after the tool turns blue, you've probably lost the temper of the tool edge already. Quench to prevent the tool from heating up in the first place, not after the damage is done.
Thanks for that Jeff. I didn't know that about HSS so good advice. The trick seems to be very light pressure and then break, light pressure. Its very different to the process with the Tormek. Interestingly different in fact. I've used an old beat up grinder for years for mower blades, axes etc but never anything refined before. Shaping is a whole new thing on fast grinders for me.
Is there any reason you can think of that would preclude me from using the planar knife jig on the bgm-100....ie sharpen planar knives on a dry stone (to get the dings out) then switch to the T7 for final honing and ultra sharpening?
I've never tried it. It doesn't seem like it would adapt to the horizontal base very well.
I guess the svh-320 is helped by gravity in the T7 upright position isn't it. I'll check it out when all the kit arrives and see how it goes. I'm expecting the delivery today (of the bgm-100 that is).
Thanks for the help.
Cheers
Rob,
While my grandchildren were at a gymnastics class this morning, I enjoyed a book I have had for several years. The book, The Lathe Book, by Ernie Conover (revised edition) has a good section on sharpening skew chisels. I have known Ernie for twenty years. He is an excellent teacher, turner, and woodworker. He and his father designed and manufactured the Conover lathe. (That's a lathe!!!!)
The book should be available at a much mower price than the Ashley Iles book.
Ken
ps I would not be surprised to see the Ashley Iles book reprinted by Lost Art Press sometime in the future.
The Lathe Book on which Ken comments above is available new from Amazon and a second hand one on Abebooks for a couple of pounds. Abebooks also list several other books by Ernie Conover - most from outlets in the USA - all going for pennies or a couple of pounds. The shipping costs more than the book price. Like some tools, I have picked up good condition second hand books at times. Well worth keeping your eyes open.
My BGM-100 arrived today. I'll have that little sucker on in no time then put those dry wheels through their paces. It's funny but even using them freehand as I have extensively already.....the refinement of the Tormek is a pleasure to get back to. It's the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Skoda!!
I found this venerable topic during a google search. Like the Biblical book of Proverbs, It is an old topic, but still rings true. I remember when this topic was first posted.
The glazing frustration referred to by Rob has also been a problem for me. A number of people whose sharpening experience I respect regularly use the SB-250 routinely enough to wear it out and then purchase new SBs. In my case, my SB just collects dust; I have never gotten it to work well. I admit to one valuable side benefit from my SB; when I was reshaping a skew, I had to use the TT-50 truing tool so much that I became very fluent with it. That fluency still benefits me.
That experience also explains why I am so pleased with the way the new Tormek diamond wheels cut. They definitely do not cut as fast as something like a 46 grit Norton 3X on a high speed grinder, however they do cut AND they continue to cut. While the reshaping journey was slow, I always felt I was making progress and did not doubt a successful conclusion.
Yes, as Jeff mentioned, a coarse wheel is a one trick pony. However, when you need that one trick pony, it is marvelous. This topic inspired me to try using the Norton 3X wheels when I got my T4. (The 3X wheels come in only six and eight inch diameters. Too bad; they would be marvelous in ten inches with the SuperGrind size Tormeks. They really would be a Super Grind!) I found the 46 grit 3X wheel (ideally matched with the T4, but usable with the larger Tormeks) the fastest steel remover with the Tormek.
The diamond wheels are not as fast as the one trick pony, however, they are very versatile. I have reshaped a skew with my DC-250 coarse diamond wheel. The process time improved considerably when I figured out how to do it better. Part of that realization was grinding away the old bevel and reshaping with the grinding angle set at ninety degrees. Completely separating reshaping and sharpening made the entire process go faster.
I have not done it, however, I am convinced that the diamond wheels can make it practical to sharpen planer blades with the Tormek.
Torgny Jansson did an outstanding job of explaining the SuperGrind SG-250 grinding wheel in the handbook. Almost ten years after being introduced, the SB and SJ wheels share only a paragraph or two in the handbook and only the most minimal video coverage. It appears that the new diamond wheels and Multi Base will get the same minimal coverage. That is unfortunate; they really are outstanding developments.
I am glad that Herman is still active with us. Unfortunately, Jeff and Tormek parted company several years ago, a major loss. I hope Rob will be able to schedule time to become active again. I miss him. He and I still correspond.
The new diamond wheels will make many long time limitations fade away. I am excited that Tormek continues to be the premier wet grinding innovator.
Ken
Hi Ken
I'm in France. Brittany to be precise, in an 1800 built Breton style stone farmhouse with metre thick walls. Family wedding yesterday and I thought it was high time I popped my head round the door to see how my old friends are doing :-)
Hi, Rob. I'm glad you're back; we missed you. We have this old guy who finally has his lathe running. He may have some questions for you........
Ken
I hear the lathe itself may have a few stories to tell :-)
It certainly has stories fo remember for me, stories of my grandfather and father long ago and the tables and chairs they lovingly made. Happy memories of my childhood.
Ken
And that very provenance will help you turn better Ken. The respect and love that the very tool represents will get engineered into the work.
I think all you need now Ken is to put as much time on the tools as you possibly can. Let us know how you get on. Don't get depressed if the skew doesn't deliver for you at the start. It's a bit frisky to say the least and will give you catch after catch at the start. Don't let that put you off. Perseverance is the name of the game with the skew.
Rob,
Your sage advice is spot on. Learning the skew reminds me of learning how to use my wooden 4x5 camera almost forty years ago. It was a generous gift from my favorite aunt and long anticipated. I was quite discouraged when I could not see through it to view or focus. I persevered. Finally my eyes learned how to work with the camera's groundglass. It was like viewing through the back of an ipad, but better. The precision and flexibility of a view camera made 35mm and digital cameras seem like glorified box cameras. Looking back the struggle was one of the most worthwhile photographic things I have ever done. I look forward in the same way to learning the skew.
My self imposed challenge of learning a way to sharpen the Lacer grind gives me a big head start. I know how to keep the skew quite sharp and can keep a Tormek "at the ready" all preset for my skew. With pre set, there is essentially no set up time.
There is a wealth of quite good instructional material available online, most of it at no charge. An excellent starting point is to google Alan Lacer, Dallas. This is an hour long video of a lecture he gave as a symposium in Dallas. Like my favorite Tormek related videos, I have viewed it several times, each time learning more. Although Alan Lacer sharpens with a dry grinder, much of his experience can be translated into Tormekese. I did the reshaping of my skew entirely with my Tormek and the new diamond wheels. While the process went slowly, I did not experience the frustration I did with the SB or SG. The coarse diamond wheel kept on cutting. I learned enough grinding technique from this that my next reshaping will go faster.
Lacer recommends practicing with short lengths of 2x4 lumber sawed in half. It is available, inexpensive, and easy turning. One of my practice exercises will be turning several diameter variations of parts of these billets (turning wood) to get a feel for what size I want for my first upcoming project. I have a very nice unhandled detail gouge made by Doug Thompson of powdered metal from a design by the late King Heiple. I met King at one of Ernie Conover's classes. King was an outstanding orthopedic surgeon, a fine turner and teacher, an a likeable person. This handled King Heiple detail gouge will be another tool with happy memories for me.
Rob, I am most pleased to have you as friend and turning mentor.
Ken
I look forward to reports of your first experiences with the skew Ken :-) And dont forget....we need pictures....or it didn't happen :-)
Rob,
Great to hear from you again. My introduction to a lathe was during the 70's in high school. We were not shown any cutting procedures, only scraping using mainly gouges. Some years later, I picked up a book that discussed cutting and slandered scraping except for the true scraping tools. So out came the skews and the applied angles of the gouges to the work piece changed. As you told Ken, hello catches! It was disgusting and I would go back to scraping only to return to try cutting again because I liked the cutting results when the tool wouldn't catch. Persistence finally paid off. An instructor would sure have helped!
Elden,
I agree; it is always great to hear from Rob.
In my prep study for turning, I believe I have discovered the reason why cutting instead of scraping was so difficult and frustrating. (I learned this from Alan Lacer's online videos.) The traditional method of holding billets (wood) in spindle turning is a four prone drive center driven into the wood and a dead center. Dead centers have evolved into live centers. However, in my opinion, the real improvement is using a ring center instead of the four prong center. Whereas a catch with a skew is jolting with the four prong center, with a ring center the billet just stops. With enough practice catches where the billet just stops, the tension lessens considerably and the skew becomes a usable tool.
Ken