I have never mastered the spokeshave, and as I am currently making a child's rocking chair with various curved lines, I am now determined to get on top of this tool.
Staying with one model in particular, a Stanley No63 (of many years vintage) which has a curved base. I could not get it to give a decent cut on any hardwood. So to get up the learning curve, I picked a nice piece of mahogany, 22mm, wide as the grain is very uniform.
I thought the mouth too wide which was causing a lot of chatter and rough cutting. So I put a plastic shim behind the blade and this helped a lot. However the cuts were not uniform across the wood, and this was due to the blade not being parallel to the top of the mouth. I realised that although the top and bottom edges of the mouth appeared parallel, the face on which the blade fits (like the frog in a plane) is not parallel to the top of the mouth, causing the blade to sit squint to the top of the mouth. This is an original casting issue.
I then used a piece of thick paper behind one side of the shim and this made the blade sit parallel to the top of the mouth, and I was then getting some nice full width shavings from the mahogany.
So I am now left with how to sharpen the blade. I have previously done it on Japanese wet stones but this is a pain due to the small side of the blade, and so I am looking for advice on how to sharpen the blade on my Tormek.
The blade is 13/4" (45mm) wide 13/8" (35mm) from to back, and 1/16" (~2mm) thick, so the SE76 won't look at it.
I haven't tried it yet, but I doubt the SVD 110 is the answer as the small blade means it would be finger pressure down on to the SVD110 as the only means of holding the blade, and I doubt if this would give accuracy across the blade.
Also what angle to grind? At the moment it is 25 degrees, but if I increase this to 30 degrees this may also reduce the chatter.
So suggestions welcome.
I'm sure you know this, but the direction in which you run the tool may make a big difference. You'll get more chatter in one direction because you are splitting the fibers, whereas in the other direction you are slicing them.
I only used it with the grain. If I made an error and went against the grain there was (as expected) big tear out just like a plane would do.
Even going with the grain there was a lot of chatter and ridges across the direction of the cutting path. Angling the tool against the direction of cut, so the effective cutting angle changes, improved things a little, but too erratic to give a proper solution. When it did go well I could get a good surface finish.
I'm not a shave expert at all, but I would think using a curved-sole shave on flat wood would be very difficult to avoid chatter. Does a curved-sole shave assume that you've already formed the rough curve?
The curve has already been made on the bandsaw. The convex part I smoothed using a No 3 plane, but the concave part is too tight a radius for a normal plane and I don't have a compass plane.
I also got chatter on a straight piece of wood. Closing the blade to the top of the mouth improved matters a lot, but not perfect.
My main issue at the moment though is how to get this small blade sharpened. If I can somehow get this held on the Tormek and really sharp, then I can come back to the chatter. The blade has been pretty sharp as done by hand, so I'm just hoping that if I can get it sharper whether this shows an noticeable improvement.
Any chance the small knife jig would work? What angle is the blade sharpened to?
If you're getting it truly sharp on water stones, I have a feeling it isn't going to get better on the Tormek but I could certainly be wrong.
The blade is currently 25 degrees. However trying to hold a small blade like this and use waterstones is tricky and my finger joints let me know it! I did flatten the back, and that was a real pain to get done.
I've just had a look at the SVM00 and SVM45. The SVM00 had a piece covering the end and is shaped for handles, so that wouldn't work.
I thought the SVM45 was for curved blades, but it should do a straight edge if careful. (I don't have one so need to investigate) It has the right sort of clamping which would hold the spokes have blade. Need to look further.
Thanks for the clue.
Are you pushing or pulling spokeshave. try using like a draw knife.
My SVM45 has arrived and I have now sharpened three different spokeshave blades (two of which are slightly bigger than the sizes quoted above), all at 250, no micro-bevel. This was another learning curve, and nearly collected a Tormek tattoo on the way!
I previously had great difficulty holding these small blades when trying to sharpen them on Japanese waterstones, and there was no way I could hold them when to use the SVD110 and they are too short for the SE76.
The SVM45 now gives me good holding jig, so I flattened the backs initially on the side of the wheel then finished off using waterstones.
I also honed up the bases of all three spokeshave bodies.
I started with grinding towards the edge of the blade, and this led to a couple of 'moments'! The tool caught and jumped a bit, but I managed to avaoid any problem. A couple of minutes later it caught again, spun the blade end of the SVM45 under the universal bar, hit me in the chest, fell to the concrete floor and took a bit bit out the blade!
So I rearranged to grind away from the edge. It is not easy to stop the tool angling sideways (as you would like it to do when following the curve of a knife) and trying to maintain a straight cut. However I got there. I did find that I appeared to get a better edge if I removed the wire on the edge using the waterstone. Using the leather honing wheel I must be rounding it off and loosing sharpness. Also I did not hone the bevel side, I just 'polished' this up with the wheel fine graded and light touches.
To the No 63 and another curved spokeshave I used shims to close the gap, and just tweaking the blade positions, I managed to get these two curved spokeshaves working pretty well in concave cut mahogany. The grain is changing from almost end grain at the top of the curve to fully with the grain at the bottom, and I have made some very smooth sweeping curves.
The flat bottomed spokeshave, didn't need any shims, and went well along the grain. Overall a big improvement.
I think I know why the blade caught. It is 45mm wide, and I probably went too far over the edge of the wheel, and as the SVM45 can rotate (unlike the SE76) the blade went over, caught the corner of the wheel, and decided it would like to take up gymnastics! Bit of scary. This is less likely to happen with a knife as the blade is probably longer and you have its handle to control any angular moment. So a word of caution to others when using spokeshave sized blades - grind away from the edge.
That's a good point about traveling beyond the edge of the wheel. I've learned that one of the subtle necessities with the Tormek is to keep the pressure over the wheel. In other words, it's OK if the blade goes off the edge of the wheel (even when grinding into the edge), but your fingers must stay over the wheel at all times.
I have made a mock up of a new jig which I believe will solve the problem of sharpening small blades like those in spokeshaves, and the problems I experienced as posted previously. Herman's HK50 is fine for items which you can get a good hold of and keep stable as you grind, but I have great difficulty holding small blades.
The SE76 is not designed for blades which cannot extend say 50mm from the jig. The SVM45 knife jig can handle small blades but is susceptible to snatching if the blade is not very wide and the operator goes too far over the stone edge (as I demonstrated!) and can introduce angular issues in grinding as it does not have anything to prevent any shaft rotation.
I do not have a milling machine so have not made a working metal unit. I have made a wooden mock up to demonstrate the principle and show that the dimensions are suitable for use.
Copying the clamping arrangement as used on the front end of the SVM45 and making a mock up as shown in the following photos, you can have a tool which clamps a small blade as shown in Pic 1 and Pic 2. Width of mock up 45mm. Thickness of baseplate 9mm. Thickness of clamping plate 6mm. Outside shaping and recess for the blade the same as the SVM45. Overall length of mock up 110mm.
The spokeshave blade in the pictures is 35mm front to back.
Pic 1
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/DSCF2648_zps344c613d.jpg)
Pic 2
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/Pic2_zps67c5f52e.jpg)
The marker pen sketches illustrate the same type of screw fixings as used on the SVM45.
Pic 3 shows the jig mounted in the SE76. The base plate of the jig is butted up against the right hand side of the SE76 just like a plane blade, so registers the same.
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/Pic3_zps2eb7cea9.jpg)
Pics 4 and 5 show the whole assembly mounted on the T7 with a bevel angle set at 30 degrees.
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/Pic4_zps1cbb546f.jpg)
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/Pic5_zpsda65e2c2.jpg)
Caution - This wooden mock up is to demonstrate the principle, and should not be used to sharpen any blades. A properly machined metal version only should be used.
I am happy to share this with contributors and Tormek alike for no cost. If Tormek make and market one, a free sample wouldn't go amiss. All Tormek have to do is replace the round shaft on rear end of the SVM45 and extend the existing bottom plate. They have all the dimensions and tooling in place for the rest. (Tormek should be quick off the mark as no doubt their competitors will check through this forum and monitor the problems, solutions and ideas raised by contributors.)
Apologies to anyone I may have confused. In my post above I should have used SVM45 not SV00 ( getting the jigs confused after the other posts about holding small knives.)
**I have now been back into the previous post and changed SV00 to SVM45**
Nice work, Robin. Have you used the SVM-00?
By the way, you can go back and edit that post, fixing the typo you made with jig names. You make references to both the SVM-45 and the SVM-00, so it would help me understand which one you were talking about.
to edit a post look for the modify buton in the top right corner of the post
Incorrect jig part numbers corrected - thanks for the pointers on how to sort that out.
I have not used an SVM00 and it would not suit a spokeshave blade due to the closed end of this jig and its internal rounded surfaces (similar to one of the woodturning tool jigs).
A friend who has a small milling machine has offered me the use of it, but I have absolutely no room to get it in, and he is too busy with his own job to get it set up in his own workshop. I think even my very accommodating wife would seriously object if it appeared in the kitchen!
ha...thats where my lathe lived for its first month of life....right next to my kitchen diner :-)
It was minus 5 in my shop so I got better half permission to assemble it in the kitchen....it then accidentally remained for a month....until christmas was looming...then it was out into the cold...sniff sniff
Quote from: RobinW on April 20, 2013, 01:03:42 AM
The SE76 is not designed for blades which cannot extend say 50mm from the jig. The SVM45 knife jig can handle small blades but is susceptible to snatching if the blade is not very wide and the operator goes too far over the stone edge (as I demonstrated!) and can introduce angular issues in grinding as it does not have anything to prevent any shaft rotation.
I'm reading this again this morning and I understand it a bit better. If the SVM-45 had a shorter handle it would solve all your issues except for the angular rotation? Rather than fabricate one from scratch it might be easier to modify an existing SVM-45 by removing the handle, filing or machining the round shaft to a different shape, and attaching it to a piece of flat stock that can be clamped into the SE-76.
The really small blades that are hard to hold are still going the be a problem as they won't fit in the SVM-45 and without the ability to rotate the jig you won't be able to sharpen the tips of the blades.
Have you tried clamping a small knife in the jaws of a vise-grip so you could hold it better, and then using the HK-50? You can make one out of wood that works like a gem.
I think there are two things here. Small knife blades which need the angular freedom of rotation to follow the curve of the blade - so that is where the SVM45 with existing handle applies, or the HK50 if it suits your style or tool. (I don't have any small knives so that isn't an area of interest to me.)
For the spokeshave blade you need a straight line facility that the SE76 gives you, but as the blades are short front to back they need something like a vice-grip or the front end of the SVM45 which can be used in conjunction with the SE76.
If you had an SVM45, instead of ruining the handle by filing it flat and square, all you need is a replacement bottom plate (drilled and tapped to suit to match the top plate). Keep the top plate with the knobs, screws and springs. Then you have the best of both worlds for both small knives and spokeshave blades.
All good fun and stimulating.
Quote from: RobinW on April 20, 2013, 05:46:09 PM
If you had an SVM45, instead of ruining the handle by filing it flat and square, all you need is a replacement bottom plate (drilled and tapped to suit to match the top plate).
Good idea, Robin. I just checked the sharptoolsusa website and unfortunately that particular part doesn't appear to be available. You'd have to buy the entire SVM-45 jig or fabricate that piece yourself.
That's the idea - and why I commented that Tormek have the opportunity to add an extra jig to their armoury, where they have the sizes and nearly all the tooling already available. Either they make an extra bottom plate for use with an existing SVM45, or supply a whole new tool. As I already have the SVM45 all I need is a bottom plate. For someone without they need a whole new tool the SVM45SQE (SVM45 with SQuare End). There you are Tormek the model number is also supplied!
I need to ferret around and see who else I know could machine me a bottom plate. (I'm at a reunion on Monday and one of my old colleagues who will be there used to have a well fitted machine shop for mechanical parts - hopefully he'll still operational!)
This jig would be good for sharpening things that aren't so small that the SVM-00 would be used for them, but are small enough that they're hard to hold onto?
My friend Bob has machined a steel plate to my drawing so that I can now turn my SVM45 into a 'SVM45SQE' (SVM45 with Square End) and use it with the SE76 square edge jig, as proposed in my earlier posts with my wooden mock up.
Although not shown in the following photographs, it is machined with counterbores to locate the springs and tightening screw. It has the large locating lugs for aligning the top and bottom plates, and the small lugs against which the blade butts, all as per the SVM45.
The following photos show it in action with a small blade from a Stanley 63 spokeshave. It's now really easy to hold these small sized blades and also gets the advantage of using the SE76 for control and repeatability. Going like a train!
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/Jig2_zps3e276fa5.jpg)
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/Jig1_zps3697e853.jpg)
As I suggested previously, Tormek could add this to their range of jigs.
It also strikes me if someone had an SVM45 but not a SE76, they could use this jig with Herman's HK50, so having a firm grip of a small tool which then uses the HK50 for angle alignment onto the stone.
That was a very satisfying afternoon's work.
*I've just come back into this post. As I was about to exit Photobucket, I had a flashing message box which I thought was from Photobucket. Oh no it wasn't. I was hijacked off to something which, when I tried to shut it down, it wouldn't let me. I couldn't Force Quit Safari (Apple's Browser). I couldn't shut down my Mac using commands. In the end it was hold down the power button until I overcame whatever was trying to get hold of my machine. Then on restart, it's clear the History, clear the Cache; clear out the Preferences and Security etc several times and hopefully that's it all killed off. Moral of the story? Don't click on any flashing message box which comes up in Photobucket.
Nice work, Robin. I'll see if I can get one made for myself.
Would you like my drawing?
Yes, I would.
Let's see if my latest wrestling match with Photobucket works!
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/JigDrawing_zps601a28eb.jpg)
It is some years since I did a detailed mechanical drawing for machining purposes, and I have forgotten how to specify tolerances, perpendicular items, and surface finishes, hence the novel tolerance specification note! if I have it right it's drawn in Third Angle.
The plate Bob made for me is 6mm thick which is more than adequate.
Looks pretty good to me. A machinist with this drawing and a SVM-45 on hand ought to be able to make it.
Clever jig. Robin. Good show!!!!
Ken
Looks great!
Looks like that would possibly work well with those throw away utility knife blades that aren't worth spending the time on sharpening.
Nice work Robin....really professional.
NB
I too have some concerns about Photobucket...not least of which are the unsavoury adverts it seems to run!
Quote from: RobinW on April 07, 2013, 07:06:38 PM
I have never mastered the spokeshave, and as I am currently making a child's rocking chair with various curved lines, I am now determined to get on top of this tool.
Staying with one model in particular, a Stanley No63 (of many years vintage) which has a curved base. I could not get it to give a decent cut on any hardwood. So to get up the learning curve, I picked a nice piece of mahogany, 22mm, wide as the grain is very uniform.
I thought the mouth too wide which was causing a lot of chatter and rough cutting. So I put a plastic shim behind the blade and this helped a lot. However the cuts were not uniform across the wood, and this was due to the blade not being parallel to the top of the mouth. I realised that although the top and bottom edges of the mouth appeared parallel, the face on which the led lighting (http://www.niceledlights.com) fits (like the frog in a plane) is not parallel to the top of the mouth, causing the blade to sit squint to the top of the mouth. This is an original casting issue.
I then used a piece of thick paper behind one side of the shim and this made the blade sit parallel to the top of the mouth, and I was then getting some nice full width shavings from the mahogany.
So I am now left with how to sharpen the blade. I have previously done it on Japanese wet stones but this is a pain due to the small side of the blade, and so I am looking for advice on how to sharpen the blade on my Tormek.
The blade is 13/4" (45mm) wide 13/8" (35mm) from to back, and 1/16" (~2mm) thick, so the SE76 won't look at it.
I haven't tried it yet, but I doubt the SVD 110 is the answer as the small blade means it would be finger pressure down on to the SVD110 as the only means of holding the blade, and I doubt if this would give accuracy across the blade.
Also what angle to grind? At the moment it is 25 degrees, but if I increase this to 30 degrees this may also reduce the chatter.
So suggestions welcome.
Were you able to get top of the tool.. Even I have failed many a times so if you can help I will be able to make a good tool.. Please reply.. Thanks
Good morning Sherman
Yes I did get on top of that original spokeshave and also a few others (metal and wood framed). When I originally posted I was having a hard time on some mahogany, coupled with lack of practice, sharpness (or lack) of the blade, and setting the spokeshave up.
You will see in the rest of this post, and another under the heading 'Another Spokeshave Challenge' I have spent a fair amount of time with different blades and coming up with jigs so that (if possible) I can sharpen them on the Tormek.
It was the rockers for the child's rocking chair that started this off, and the picture below shows the finished chair, delivered to my granddaughter yesterday on her birthday.
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/DSCF2830smallimage_zpsccdaca7b.jpg)
The first thing about using a spokeshave is to get the blade really sharp, just like a plane. I haven't bothered with micro-bevels, just 25 degree single bevel (or near enough).
I have also polished up the base (rubbing surface) of the spokeshaves. If it has a curved base, make sure it is consistent across the width of the tool.
Then I like to get the blade set so that it has a narrow opening in the mouth. The only one I've had to shim so that the blade is parallel to the front edge of the mouth was the original one in this post. The other tools haven't needed shimming. Also I use a small blade projection as it is easier to feel and control, otherwise I find that tearout and chatter are easily created. I would also rather take say 20 - 30 light strokes and have a nice surface than 4 - 5 strokes with tearout and spend longer trying to recover the situation.
There is also a knack in getting the angle right between the face of the tool and the wood being shaved. This is where the old adage practice, practice, practice comes in. I find that if I start off (whether pulling or pushing the tool) so that there is no shaving, and then gently roll the angle of the tool so that it just starts to cut, and try to maintain that angle and feel of the tool. At the end of the stroke it sometimes helps in just rolling the tool slightly so that it is taking less bite to finish off the stroke. It's a bit difficult to get this into text rather than a hands-on demo. It's like when I start to use a plane. I start off with the blade back so that it is probably not cutting at all. Then turn the adjuster knob each stroke until it starts to cut, and keep doing that until I get the amount of cut that I'm comfortable with.
I started off spokeshaving the wrong way - jumped in the deep end. I didn't have the blade sharp enough; probably not set right and insufficient practice. I was trying to get on with the job as I originally posted. This involved some old mahogany which I'd got my hands on. I know this was fitted into an office over 40 years ago (desk top, shelves, drawer fronts) and it was pretty hard! The desk top sections were about 3 feet wide boards, so it was one hell of a tree in its day.
So I would suggest that you start off use a softer piece of wood, (preferably straight grained or no knots). Start on the corner of the the wood, and shave the corner at 45 degrees and keep doing that. Get the feel of things. Then round the corner off. Get different radii over the corner. Change the corner shape. When you've got that under control, then move to a flat surface say 3/4 to 1 inch wide and try getting that flat. Then you should have the feel of things. Try different types of wood. I found that the responses from different types of wood very noticeable.
Like planing, go with the grain. If it is a curved surface go down hill. On some curves you may end up coming in from both sides. I know this sounds contradictory about going with the grain, but it will tear out if you are going up a curve into end grain (depending on steepness of the curve). For concave curves, you would be better using a curved sole spokeshave rather than a flat based tool, so it can follow the arc of the curve better.
It should all be done with a nice light touch. Stroke it, don't force it. Hope this helps.
good advice there Robin. Nice chair too :-)
Great jig improvement Robin! I have some 6mm steel plate from another project. I might just make a plate like that in due course. Thanks very much for the nice plan drawing.
Very nice overall post. Thanks and nice looking jig.
Nice rocker Robin. I'll bet your great grandchildren will be also be using it one day.
My granddaughter got it Tuesday on her 4th birthday, sat in it, rocked away and said she was now a granny!
A short while later, her younger brother of 10 months, climbed in to it, stood up facing the back, had great fun rocking it while standing, and then decided he would sit down facing the same direction. He was caught in mid-air by his other Granny!
As this post started of about spokeshave issues, I was reading in the latest Furniture and Cabinet Making Magazine, an article about Holland Holland a famous London gun manufacturer. (Fantastic craftsmanship.) The thrust of the article was about making the wooden stocks, and the following was stated - "As with cabinetmaking, older tools are considered better quality and wooden spokeshaves are given preference over metal."
As I have now restored a couple of these wooden spokeshaves (and some metal ones) and got the blades sharpened up on the T7, I can understand why the gunmakers like the wooden versions. They have a feel about them when you get them right. The metal one I have a also good, but there is something indefinable about the wooden ones.
I can see that Robin. Perhaps it's the much lighter weight and the feel of the wood. I have never used a wooden one, or even seen one except for photos, but they also seem to have a much lower profile and not as wide as a steel one either. I would think tighter inside curves would be possible with the wooden one for that reason. Just a thought.
I use spokeshaves some. Your struggles with the curved bottom type are common. Congrats on figuring out how to make it cut. Many give up thinking it's the tool. That is also a very nice custom jig for the short blades. For others that don't have the custom jig - I tape the short shave blades (and some of my small plane blades) to a 2" Stanley plane blade and use the square jig to hold. Any long flat piece of steel will work. I use masking tape wrapped around the holder and blade.
Quote from: RobinW on May 15, 2013, 12:28:42 AM
Let's see if my latest wrestling match with Photobucket works!
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/ChiselSharp/JigDrawing_zps601a28eb.jpg)
It is some years since I did a detailed mechanical drawing for machining purposes, and I have forgotten how to specify tolerances, perpendicular items, and surface finishes, hence the novel tolerance specification note! if I have it right it's drawn in Third Angle.
The plate Bob made for me is 6mm thick which is more than adequate.
Here is my version of this useful jigg. Thanks for the detailed mechanical drawing.
Hi Johan - Great to see that someone has made good use of my drawing and another jig in operation.
May I suggest that you clean, flatten and polish the back of the blade before sharpening the bevel. Use your jig to hold the blade and flatten the back on a waterstone (or other method you may prefer). Using the jig helps preserve the ends of your fingers and also reduces the stress on finger joints!
There is information elsewhere in the Forum about polishing backs and bevels, the effects and benefits of having highly polished surfaces meeting at the cutting edge. I think it was Herman who posted photographs taken through a x40 magnifier.
A few thoughts:
Regarding the preference for older, wooden spokeshaves, I don't disagree. The quality of garden variety tools in recent decades is certainly less than stellar. (I am being kind.) The quality of top drawer tools, like Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or small manufacturers, can be superb. My metal spokeshaves are century old Stanleys; I would put the quality of today's top tools against them any day.
The main difference between wooden and metal spokeshaves is the location of the bevel. Just like top and bottom bevel planes, most metal spokes are bottom bevel tools. Wooden spokeshaves are top bevel. The cutting angles are different. My theory is that metal spokeshaves reflected the design of metal planes of the time.
Ron Hock and Lee Valley sell thicker replacement blades, which should reduce chatter. Lee Valley also makes some interesting spokeshaves, including a metal low angle spokeshave.
Stig showed me how the new SE-77 square edge jig can hold spokeshave blades. The holding surfaces have been redesigned.
Robin, your jig design is very clever. Kudos. I have long thought some of the Tormek jigs could be more versatile. A replacement for the adjustable stop which prevented the knife jig from pivoting would be very useful.
Before power tools, tools like spokeshaves would have been in more regular use. If we can combine the wisdom of the old craftsmen with today's best in toolmaking, I think we will have the best of both worlds.
Very interesting topic.
Ken
Quote from: RobinW on October 05, 2016, 11:25:10 AM
Great to see that someone has made good use of my drawing and another jig in operation.
Hi Robin,
many congrats on your well designed jig! It's a pretty good solution for short spokeshave blades, clearly to spot.
My question: I own 2 Millers Falls cigar shaves that I love. They can plane narrow curves better than all other spokeshaves that I came across so far. The hard thing is the sharpening however. The blades are narrow curved and hard to clamp into any Tormek jig that I know. Actually I get them more or less sharp by handsharpening them on waterstones or on other flat sharpening media. I'd love to find a way to sharpen them on the Tormek. Any ideas?
Klaus
Should have added these pics in the previous post already.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_SKNojTO_bo/WA5Iav5xQ0I/AAAAAAAADpM/TfPpDlaanMYDrT2nvBHe-orS5gWbaMK0gCLcB/s640/P1040908.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yyuaAIabhiM/WA5Ian_2wtI/AAAAAAAADpQ/SXWabVGVHqYGyGUVXYAWer1O8QhhoqFYgCLcB/s640/P1040909.jpg)
Klaus
Hi Klaus
I have never come across a Miller Falls tool like your photos, but it looks interesting. I did a search and on the following website someone has complied a history of the company and its tools - but I didn't see any reference to a spokeshave. According to Wikipedia the company was taken over by a Chinese company, but it is not clear if still in business.
http://oldtoolheaven.com (http://oldtoolheaven.com)
I tried a search on the Forum because I thought I had (a long time ago now) posted some photographs of a jig I made with acrylic sheet (just because I had some stuff lying around) and this accepts the tangs of the blades for aged wooden spokeshaves. However I can't find the photographs. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I have an inkling of an idea.
Can you post the sizes of the blade - length, inside diameter etc.. I assume the ground face is straight across. Is it a tangent to the outer surface or angled in?
Robin
Hi Robin,
thanks a lot for jumping in that quick. Lee Valley has a nice description of the cigar shave.
http://www.leevalley.com/newsletters/Woodworking/2/2/patents.htm
The inside diameter of the blade is rather exactly 17 mm, the overall length is 56 mm and the side bevels are about 55 degrees (where it meets the screws). You spotted it right, the ground face is a tangent to the outer surface. It's not allowed to be only slightly convex since the tool wouldn't cut then. If it's slightly hollow from the Tormek stone it should work fine.
Klaus
Hi Klaus
(As there are restrictions concerning photographs per post, this reply will be in at least two posts - assuming I can upload the photographs!)
As a trial effort before making the metal spokeshave jig shown above, I made some jigs from acrylic sheet. One of these clamped the flat spokeshave blade between two acrylic sheets, the lower sheet had a tail to fit into the SE76 square edge jig.
I have now bodged one of these jigs to accept a 'half-round tool'. (Bodged - a UK term meaning in the polite terms, rough and ready!)
I had a piece of 22mm outside diameter copper pipe (standard size for domestic plumbing in UK), so I cut this lengthwise to make a 'half-round tool' to simulate your Miller Falls blade. I then cut a slot in one of the acrylic sheets, at the same distance from the front edge of the sheet to match the internal diameter of the pipe. The tool is then clamped in place by the second sheet of the jig.
Fig 1 - This shows the 'tool' clamped between two plates. The upper plate has a slot (at the diameter distance back from the front edge) as more readily shown in Fig 2. The piece of mahogany between the plates, towards the left side, is to stop the clamping plate being canted (angled) over too far. You can also see the start of the tail on the far left which fits into the SE76.
Fig 3 shows the whole arrangement fitted into the SE76.
Now we come to the fun bit!
Robin,
Is "bodged" related to "bodger", meaning the traditional wood turners who worked outside making chair parts quickly?
Ken
Now that I missed the vital point on uploading photographs, I will again attempt to load Figs 1, 2 and 3
We'll let's have another go as my last post was rejected!
Fig 4 shows the SE76 on the vertical usb so that grinding is towards the blade edge.
**I do not recommend this is tried, because to get the blade edge tangential to the wheel, the usb needs to be high and there is a danger that the blade edge will catch and try and push the tool/jig assembly back under the usb, with disastrous results to wheel, tool, and operator!**
(There is a recent post on the Forum where someone was having a knife catching and this was due to the high angle employed - so you have been warned!)
Swiftly moving on to Plan B - Figs 5 and 6 show the assembly with the usb in horizontal position and grinding away from the edge - which I think would be better for this type of tool. However we now hit another snag. Due to the SE76 having restricted leftwards movement as its mounting lug come up against the usb. So my jig (no sizes worked out in advance,) cannot move the tool across the full with of the wheel. So any jig of this form needs a built in offset to compensate for the SE76 obstruction.
Here comes Fig 6:-
Plan C - Fig 7 shows the jig removed from the SE76 and resting on a SVD110 tool rest. One thing I have found when using the SVD110 is, despite trying to apply a light touch, any tool I have tried to sharpen tends to get pulled up off the SVD110.
**I have not attempted to 'sharpen' my copper pipe tool as non-ferous metal would clog up the grinding wheel and create another dangerous situation.**
However despite not trying it, I am sure that a simple clamping method of a half-round tool can provide a route to success.
I have also thought of clamping the half round tool (similar method as Miller Falls use in the spokeshave) to a suitably sized length of round bar, which in turn has either handles or a yoke for clamping to the SVD110.
I cut the slot in the acrylic sheet using a Fein Multicaster tool. (There are other manufacturers of oscillating head tools on the market.)
I took me a very short time to make the 'half-round tool' and bodged jig to prove a principle. It took me much longer to resize the photographs and go through the ......... process of getting them uploaded within the restrictions applied by the Forum!
Ken you are correct that bodged and bodgers are related. The rudimentary method of bodgers work is usually associated for all other types of work associated with some form of ingenuity or lateral thinking in order to get a job done. Also associated with botched (usually when someone else has been paid to do a job!).
Wow Robin, I'm blown away completely!
First and foremost lots of thank yous to you for taking all this time to make such a fine jig and to explain it that brilliantly... and to take all the time to load up so many pics! I was just asking for an idea and you did it already, incredible. I owe you something, my friend, that's for sure. I should be able to take a big advantage of your ingenious work. Fortunately I own a Fein Multimaster so the work on such a jig can be started soon. I will have to go for an acrylic sheet that will allow me to do a few attempts. Knowing me, it will be necessary to make more than one to get it right. Can't wait to begin the work though it will take much longer to finish it than you did it. I'll keep you updated.
Thanks another time!
Klaus
Klaus - I received your message, but as you will see elsewhere I seem to be incapable of sending a message.
Keep us posted with your progress - ups and downs, any problems, success!
Robin
Thanks a lot Robin.
The work will start probably next week. When I'm done I'll be happy to post a few pics.
Klaus
Hi all,
meanwhile I finished a jig for the oddly shaped cigar shave cutter. First and foremost I've to thank Robin for helping me to get into the saddle. And more than that for patiently answer any question I had regardless how silly the've been :)
Like Robin proposed the jig was made of acrylic sheet (6 mm). The circular blade is sitting firmly on a halfround piece of acryl. The first attempt wasn't successfull, when I tried to hold the cutter by letting the rear edge running through a slot in the top plate. Wasn't able to make this slot in a way that it held the cutter truly rectangular and tight. This is how it looks (the screw heads are countersunk to get a flat bottom surface):
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-s4YMxgj11YA/WBzFOkg1ZOI/AAAAAAAADp4/9uSsMrhe60wF-GAdZY72MlhGOcCS-dKAwCLcB/s640/P1040912.jpg)
The dismantled parts:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nphSulZCQ8w/WBzFPOowwnI/AAAAAAAADqI/yUwBsBwF9j0l3NfgLjtgbQeowGwPoF0ZACLcB/s640/P1040917.jpg)
After grinding the cutter:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8IqoC-_AO6E/WBzFPKsLDjI/AAAAAAAADqA/qruokYptf90mdQTzLe0M-DEXMXjoSpzMACLcB/s640/P1040915.jpg)
As you can spot the edge isn't dead straight but very slightly concave. User error however. It was the first attempt after all. I'm not familiar yet with the jig and with the SVD-110 use in this case.
The jig is shaped in a way that it can be inserted into the SE-76. This would probably sort out the above mentioned issue. But the blade has to be sharpened in a way that it has to be presented nearly rectangularly to the stone. Currently I've no idea how this can be managed with the SE-76.
Anyway, after some (quick) honing on a flat medium, the cutter is definitely sharper than I ever was able to get it by hand sharpening. The tool works how it should, it's a joy!
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BNuzZPK6VK8/WBzFPfuTCEI/AAAAAAAADqM/uVAObd6IG2w5IRnF4NztbsOeDnSAnBySwCLcB/s640/P1040918.jpg)
Klaus
Well done Klaus
Many thanks for your compliment and there is no such thing as a silly question. I'm very pleased that you're getting success and the shaving in your photograph looks good.
A couple of comments if I may.
a) Is the outside surface of the blade (in the area about to be sharpened) flat over the length of the blade or is it already concave? Or is it now concave as you may have ground it that way?
b) Did you polish up the inside surface of the blade near the cutting edge? I would suggest this be done first, and could be done by using a piece of dowel with wet and dry paper wrapped round it, and move up through the grits. Then hand hold the blade and polish the inside edge of the blade on the Tormek narrow honing wheels. (It's like flattening and polishing the back of a plane blade before sharpening the bevel.)
c) I think you will get a better edge using the SE-76. If you look at the 'Underhand Sharpening' topic you can get sharpening away from the edge and by raising the USB you should get tangential blade angles that you need. If you mounted your jig into the SE-76, what is the protrusion from the SE-76 to the front edge of your jig? (I'll have a simulation and see if my hypothesis above is feasible.)
d) I would also suggest that the front edges of the jig (top and bottom plates) are bevelled so that you can get a better view of what is happening when sharpening, and keep using felt pen marker to check your progress.
Isn't it nice when something works!
Robin
Hi Robin,
the outside surface of the blade is flat. Oddly the ground bevel is flat from side to side as well.
The inside edge was honed with grit 1000 after the Tormek grinding. I will try to get that done your way.
The minimal protrusion of the jig inside the SE-76 is exactly 50 mm. It can be altered up to 70 or 75 mm.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JWbQ-NqQoTI/WBzj4tvJP9I/AAAAAAAADqg/rs5U-ZISjTYqSIboYLPxdsMt8mw8FK-SwCLcB/s640/P1040920.jpg)
The bevelling of the plates has to be done indeed. The grinding action can't be seen the way you want it to have. Good idea!
Maybe the jig or my technique (probably the latter :D) can be optimized but all in all I'm pretty pleased already. Never had this spokeshave that sharp before. That counts.
Klaus
Hi Klaus
I'm back from the cold outside!
My jig has a protrusion of 80mm as shown below. Nothing scientific, it was just used for something else.
With the jig mounted out the back of the SE-76, and with the USB in the vertical position, the USB can be raised high enough so that the 'blade' can be swung right through just touching the wheel, so tangential position can be obtained. See below. However, at such extreme heights, the frame of the SE-76 can interfere with the threaded rod of the USB as the SE-76 is moved inboards.
With the jig mounted out the back of the SE-76, and with the USB in the horizontal position, the USB can again be pulled out enough for tangential position. See below.
I haven't tried it, but I would think your reduced protrusion would be preferable as at big USB heights it might be prone to vibration.
You're well on the way to even better results.
Robin
Yes Robin, it's lousy cold here as well!
Thanks for the latest pics. I think that I have to give the underhang technique a serious try. If that works, the sharpening process will tend to get fool proof. Have to wait until tomorrow however since I've epoxied the screw heads into the bottom plate. This will need 24 hours to dry.
Klaus
I've made a new jig that was built in a way to allow the 'Underhang Sharpening' by using the SE-76. The blade is sitting somewhat tilted inside the jig. So the blade is perpendicular while sharpening, the jig itself isn't. When it was finished I was delighted to state that it works on the horizontal USB very well. That's how it looks:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nhGRaO8Wv0o/WB7q_wMfZXI/AAAAAAAADrA/NKZG1gnFLhcGs00aUdJkwXAa_TdBxP24ACLcB/s640/P1040932.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YuHGSuBFPoQ/WB7rAShkgNI/AAAAAAAADrU/-XJqjSBzxQoC6C_shIoR2tLGSWFWvxPggCLcB/s640/P1040942.jpg)
It's a very safe and controlled sharpening process just the way, that all of us are used to get from the Tormek. The ground bevel:
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zu3NDgOHmaQ/WB7q_n9-tkI/AAAAAAAADq4/lN-cbajEV48ugbrEksuhfWCVhoj2PSG_ACLcB/s640/P1040929.jpg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mcvEQfOiyz8/WB7q_o7-tFI/AAAAAAAADqw/kzI4-gN6NacUfxhXdtXudKsU5oxW-T91gCLcB/s640/P1040926.jpg)
I'd say the result is close to perfect.
After a quick freehand honing the cutting edge looks like this:
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BU6LqaEoNo4/WB7rAK3kmKI/AAAAAAAADrM/PW-egkljLBcM2YZmE-MdIbCWt4TXm4rzACLcB/s640/P1040936.jpg)
With some anticipation the blade was inserted into the spokeshave. First cut and ...Wow it works very well! Second cut ... what's going on? Only a very narrow shaving. Third cut ... it doesn't work at all! What was happening? The middle part of the edge was folded :-[
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ye2X6bcJO_0/WB7rAatTXjI/AAAAAAAADrQ/K8TbyUAgE-sRL1Qdi7HmsVKW8AOr72S5gCLcB/s640/P1040938.jpg)
Obviously the edge is way to weak. The inside surface of the cutter needs to get a bevel to strenghten the edge. Will have to think about a fastener that allows the controlled bevelling of the inside surface. Doing this freehanded is a PITA.
Will keep you updated.
Klaus
Good morning Klaus
I think your edge angle is too shallow. It is difficult to judge from the photographs, but looking at the angle where the blade is now meeting the wheel in your photograph, the ground face looks long, so the edge will be weak.
If you think of a standard plane, with the bevel on the underside, the blade is meeting the wood at 45º. The blade itself may be sharpened at 25º with secondary bevel of 30º, but the upper side of the blade is taking the same angle of 45º from the plane mounting.
I need to think whether you apply an inside bevel (difficult to get accurate on this blade) or rotate the blade in your jig to get a larger edge angle nearer 45º. Have you tried measuring the bevel angle with the Tormek angle master?
MkII jig looking very good and the fact that you under control and feeling comfortable would imply a set up issue, not a jig issue.
Robin
Klaus - I have just used some of the latest whizzo technology to measure your edge angle.
Took a screen image of your photo, printed, used a pen and protractor and arrived at the very accurate determination of 15º, as shown below!
As lawyers put in documents, E &OE (errors and omissions excepted). Pretty rough and ready method, so accuracy definitely not to be relied on!
Robin
Hi Robin,
this whizzo thing is cool! 8) 15° is exactly what the angle finder on the WM-200 is telling as well. Pretty clear that this angle never will work. The problem is, that the face can't be ground smaller. Currently it has 6 mm. Less won't work since the back of the face then would be deeper than the cutting edge once the blade is inserted. Here a pic that shall show it though the quality isn't the best.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aPGsiwLD0C4/WB8fOhp3ZcI/AAAAAAAADrk/brrWMjSphy0PoI1M12Yb5LNtaC-d3528ACLcB/s640/P1040944.jpg)
So the grinding better won't be done up to the very edge. Leaving 1/10 mm probably will be better. The cutting angle needs to be increased anyway. I guess that this has to be done by bevelling the inside surface.
Many thanks for your ongoing help!
Klaus
Hi Klaus
Here's four sketches.
a) First shows my understanding of the existing bevel which is too narrow at the edge.
b) Second shows application of a second steeper bevel from the outside to get say 30º at the edge. (This assumes that a lot of the blade is not ground away to get a single say 30º edge.) If the blade is still mounted in the tool the same as that as shown in (a) then I agree that the cutting edge is prevented from operation due to the shoulder where the bevels meet. However if the blade is rotated backwards in the tool to a new axis, then it should work. The amount of metal resting on the wood is small.
c) Third is the case if an inside bevel is applied. Again it causes the axis of the blade to move backwards ie it needs re-positioning. There may be more metal of the blade resting on the wood than (b)
d) To get an inside bevel, assuming you have a waterstone or diamond plate, then use either MkI or MkII jig to hold the blade, tilting the jig down to the angle required that it results in a 30º edge angle. Then push/pull the jig along the length of the waterstone i.e. sharpen along the length of blade not transverse as previously ground. (Not sure of angle required. need to think more)
Plan B
Turn the existing blade round and sharpen the back edge as the cutting edge i.e. start afresh and ignore the edge that you have already worked on.
Plane C Have you got any spare blades?
Robin
Robin, you actually are killing me! The speed you throw out new ideas and these brilliant matching sketches is just stunning. Will have to test all of your proposals. Lots of thank yous another time.
I have two of these blades. One is pretty short already, perhaps 5 mm rest life. The other one is rather good. Ok, it has been pretty long before I began the Tormek grinding attempts :D But it still has a lot of rest life.
Klaus
I would use the well worn one first to get technique correct. Then you have the better one with plenty life in it.
The weather is cold so I'm not particularly motivated to do other things. Just had an hour's walk through the estate nearby and it was fresh but enjoyable.
Please can you explain what is the major usage of the cigar shave? I can imagine that it is perfect for refining the inner side of some oval profile. But there are sure other situations where it performs better than other tools. ;)
Jan
Hello Jan,
once the blade is sharp and the set up is right, the tool is able to do much more than to shape concaves. It does convex shapes as well very easily. Jimi Hendricks shows it at WK Fine Tools
http://contrib2.wkfinetools.com/hendricksJ/cigarShave/cigarShave-01.asp
For all kinds of oddly shaped workpieces, the cigar shave is a go-to-tool.
Jimi shows the handsharpening of the cutter. I tried it and it works so la la to me. Never got it razor sharp this way. Now I'm looking forward to getting this tool as sharp as it deserves it.
Klaus
Klaus
The link to Jimi Hendricks was pretty informative for the following:-
I have taken a screen shot of one of his photographs which is the most telling point. Compared to a plane blade, the flattened outside surface of the curved blade is the 'same' as the flat side of a plane blade. The inside of the curved blade is like the bevelled face of the plane.
Early on he refers to the very small inside bevel, and says that if it hasn't been touched then leave it. "If not... then you have to make a new inside bevel, but this is not something you should do unless you absolutely have to."
What does one do if it has no bevel or needs cleaned up? He doesn't give any advice about re-doing the inside bevel! That's where we find out for ourselves!
I note the width of the outside flat surface, it looks like 10mm just guessing from the photographs, which is bigger than your 6mm width. I wouldn't change yours.
So I would conclude that you should put a small bevel on the inside surface and get a cutting edge angle of say 30º. (See previous sketch for holding blade). As the tools can be rolled when shaving wood, the a higher angle between blade and wood can result.
On a separate point, I looked at a couple of my metal bodied spokeshaves (bevelled 30º on underside like a plane), and with the blades retracted and the base of the tool resting on a surface, the blades are sitting at a nominal 45º to the surface.
Robin
Quote from: Waterstone on November 06, 2016, 06:31:33 PM
Hello Jan,
once the blade is sharp and the set up is right, the tool is able to do much more than to shape concaves. It does convex shapes as well very easily. Jimi Hendricks shows it at WK Fine Tools
http://contrib2.wkfinetools.com/hendricksJ/cigarShave/cigarShave-01.asp
For all kinds of oddly shaped workpieces, the cigar shave is a go-to-tool.
Jimi shows the handsharpening of the cutter. I tried it and it works so la la to me. Never got it razor sharp this way. Now I'm looking forward to getting this tool as sharp as it deserves it.
Klaus
Klaus, than you for the explanation and the interesting link. :)
Jan
Quote from: Waterstone on November 06, 2016, 03:49:12 PM
Robin, you actually are killing me! The speed you throw out new ideas and these brilliant matching sketches is just stunning. Will have to test all of your proposals. Lots of thank yous another time.
I have two of these blades. One is pretty short already, perhaps 5 mm rest life. The other one is rather good. Ok, it has been pretty long before I began the Tormek grinding attempts :D But it still has a lot of rest life.
Klaus
Klaus,
Twenty years ago I became very frustrated cutting photographic mats. I had purchased a top of the line professional mat cutter, a C&H, which cost $600 US, far more than a Tormek. My results were mediocre.
After six months of extreme frustration things started to fall in place. To my surprise and joy, solutions came to me rapid fire. I had reached a level of understanding I had never experienced before, and rarely since.
I think Robin and some of the other forum members have reached that same delightful level of learning. I first started noticing it around the time that Herman made his small blade jig. Since then numerous innovative ideas have appeared on the forum. I have faith that this exciting trend will continue.
Ken
I'm done! Done in a rather satisfying way, that's for sure. Not only the particular shown blade now is razor sharp and has a sturdy edge, more important is that the further sharpening of these blades can easily repeated with a very controlled process.
The last pics showed a nicely ground face but a weak edge that was folded. The key was the inside shape of the blade indeed. After having spent some time to shape this bevel freehanded, I gave up rather frustrated. The result was poor. Then I remembered to have the knive sharpening jig SVM-45 ;D. This is able to clamp the circular blade in a way that the bevelling could be done. The next step was pretty clear. I had to use the flat side of the Tormek stone to install the inside bevel. Wow, that went really good.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0BcHdKu_RmQ/WCC45V9eIdI/AAAAAAAADr8/l6jX1D-HFVs-OYzmlk5Na_-0nqSu3RD_gCLcB/s640/P1040945.jpg)
Hard to spot but there is a correctly shaped inside bevel at about 30°
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tvASQ-L5oDo/WCC45UGkn-I/AAAAAAAADr0/JXd29-ML7NQjZTPKxWz7QWlt1fseRebmwCLcB/s640/P1040946.jpg)
After this was done the face needed a touch up on the Tormek and a little handhoning.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-df5jXMX0tPA/WCC45XkSkgI/AAAAAAAADr4/vkc8Ze_v2iUls5yf_CI52nrqz4vj3IvqwCLcB/s640/P1040947.jpg)
Time to test it :)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-T06OipYQoYw/WCC45lULXrI/AAAAAAAADsA/sd4AIvsDaHAhZd7RZxM2TtYPxtSbqSJ2ACLcB/s640/P1040948.jpg)
Fine full width shavings and an easy to work tool!
Now it will be the right time for some workpieces. Probably a few more hammers like these ones:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-POndmrIDiIw/Uat2FD8V4qI/AAAAAAAACg0/waNlZaiuzgg/s1600/P1030762.jpg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hdJJ0pZajkQ/Uat2GasRdRI/AAAAAAAAChQ/4APDN-_oaHQ/s1600/P1030766.jpg)
My special thanks are going to Robin for his ongoing support!
Klaus
Well done Klaus!
I would like to add a couple of comments for future polishing.
I do not like grinding of the side of the wheel as I don't feel in control. I would have used the SV-45 (or made another jig) to hold the blade and done the inside bevel only a waterstone. However you should only need to polish up the inside bevel for a good while yet. But if you're happy, that's all that counts.
The photograph showing the outside surface now appears to have a polished area at both the back and the front of the ground area. Has this changed the front edge bevel angle?
Irrespective it's good to see that Nirvana is achievable!
Robin
Keen eye, Robin ;)
Indeed I didn't polish the inside bevel. It's not easy for me to get that done properly because it's hard to see if the angle is correct while doing that freehanded. There's a risk to round the bevel. So the sharpness could be improved another bit by polishing the bevel. But: it already is really sharp!
The honing (polishing) of the face I did all the time. It might have given a tiny angle increasing since the hollow grind from the Tormek is flattened in the very edge area. Nothing wrong with that. I don't care too much if the cutting angle is 28, 30 or 32°. They all will work fine.
A sidenote: it's the first time that I was able to operate the tool with a very light grip. This makes the tool to cut thin and narrow shavings with very little resistance. The control of the cut is truly better with a light grip.
Klaus