Hi folks,
Hope you are all well.
ok, i have spent a good bit off time getting some blades into great shape, super sharp.
So i wil use them for a while and they will lose there edge.
Now theres no nicks just dulling slightly (no my blades havent dulled that quickly, i am planning for when they do)
So do i sharpen them at 1000 grit or do i just put the leather honing wheel on the blade?
Or do i give it the works 220/1000/leather?
What do you folks do?
Obviously i am assuming the blade has just dulled slightly.
Thanks
John
Hi John!
Personally, I'd use 1000 grit and see how it does. I generally, especially for maintenance sharpening, rarely need 220. Until you get to know each knife, I'd always start gently and get more aggressive only when necessary. You could always give the honing wheel a try first, but I have my doubts. (Unless you are _very_ picky about slightly dull) :)
The one exception is very hard steel. I've been surprised just how hard some knives are. The symptoms are that you just can't seem to get it sharp. If that happens, try 220 and then finish off at 1000. But like I said, you probably will find that 1000 does the job!
BUT... Another thing that I've found it that as far as grit goes, it's not and either/or thing. You can go somewhere in between with the grader stone. Grade for 10-15 seconds and then feel the wheel. Then maybe a little longer. Feel the wheel. Feel how it changes. It will go from very rough to glassy smooth depending on how long you grade the stone. (Or the other way around). Learn how the wheel feels with varying amount of time spent grading either more or less abrasive. I've found that sometimes just a little more or less abrasive is very effective.
Turn the knife often, even if you don't notice a burr.
I don't like to ever remove more metal than necessary, so I tend to being conservative and only get more aggressive when necessary.
Another thing that I've found is to watch that you don't make the center of the blade concave towards the spine as you move from the heel towards the tip. It's oddly easy to do. Not really good for chef's knives when the center of the knife need to be flat against the cutting board for chopping.
The biggest thing is to get to know how the grader effects the abrasiveness of the wheel, and how that performs with your different knives. I'll bet you will find that your different knives react differently to varying abrasiveness of the wheel.
It's the joy of the Tormek. :)
Mark
Quote from: fraseman999 on March 19, 2013, 10:32:56 PM
Hi folks,
Hope you are all well.
ok, i have spent a good bit off time getting some blades into great shape, super sharp.
So i wil use them for a while and they will lose there edge.
Now theres no nicks just dulling slightly (no my blades havent dulled that quickly, i am planning for when they do)
So do i sharpen them at 1000 grit or do i just put the leather honing wheel on the blade?
Or do i give it the works 220/1000/leather?
What do you folks do?
Obviously i am assuming the blade has just dulled slightly.
Thanks
John
You say blades. I'm assuming we're talking planes and/or chisels?
If true, my routine is simple. Unless peculiar requirement I sharpen primary bevel at 24deg and micro bevel at 25. I only maintain the micro bevel thereafter unless nicked in which case regrind primary.....rinse and repeat
If only just off sharp, I have, on occasion, got away with a touch up on honing wheel only. If normally dull, I use 1000 grit then hone. I hone freehand to save time and am super careful about avoidance of rounding the edge. I dont get it right every time but its coming with practice.
Always true the stone before maintaining as squareness to univ sppt is critical
Quote from: fraseman999 on March 19, 2013, 10:32:56 PM
So do i sharpen them at 1000 grit or do i just put the leather honing wheel on the blade?
Or do i give it the works 220/1000/leather?
The leather wheel alone will do nothing unless the edge is already sharp and you just want to tune it up, like a barber would do between shaves.
I start by looking at the edge under a magnifier. If the bevel is still visible with little or no sign of damage, and I'm not gonna change the bevel angle, then I use 1000 grit.
If there is visible damage to the blade, or if I want to change the edge angle, then I'll start with the 220 grit.
As an adjunct...the thing with the honing only idea is that because you don't need to jig anything it's really easy to just do it and see. You don't even need water in the trough!
So if I'm planing boards or chopping a mortise etc and I feel the chisel go off the boil, just pop it on the strop and have at it. You'll soon know if you were able to revive it. If its gone too far and is too blunt, out come the jigs. 1000 grit and top mounted.
Turning has taught me a lot about when to sharpen. The optimal way really is little and often, the sharpening is part of the woodwork, in vitro, for want of a better term. With turning, the smacking of the edge is so brutal that it exaggerates the need to sharpen frequently. So turners accept sharpening as part of the process. For example no turner would think of taking the finishing cut on a bowl without a quick zing on the grindstone. That I believe is the correct mind set for edge maintenance of fine woodworking tools also. Of course plane irons and chisels don't need the same frequency as turning tools but the principle underlying their maintenance is the same assuming you want really sharp edges
With kitchen knives I really have a lot of success with a steel. The maintenance principle is identical to turning tools and planes/chisels ie little and often.
I do everything on the Tormek whenever they're nicked (or after my family come to stay and dishwash/put in wrong drawers/use to prize stones out of their boots!)
Then once properly sharp I do about ten passes on the steel literally every time I use them. I have the steel on my counter top with my chef knives in a block. It works like a charm. The steel doesn't get them literally as sharp as straight off the Tormek but its easily good enough.....way way good enough to multi slice veg at breakneck speed, slice meats ultra thin and squishy tomatoes without creating a waterfall of seeds running across your kitchen
Interesting guys. Somewhat regretfully, not being a turner or woodworker, I didn't even think of planers or chisels. Turning especially looks very interesting because the stuff you can make is so cool!
Anyway, it's also interesting that no matter what type of edge you are confronted with, there are good bits of wisdom in all of these replies.
Put them all together and.... Bob's your uncle!
With turning tools I now leave the jigs actually attached to the chisels wherever I possibly can if I'm going to repeat use it.
It's a brilliant method for speeding everything up....literally a few passes and you're back on the lathe. I do this with the articulated bowl gouge jig (frequently) given I use them more than any other tool. As long as its not too far over the tool rest its fine. In fact I actually like the additional handle it gives you to control the chisel. A bit like those little handles truck drivers attach to steering wheels so they can turn one handed.
I also keep both roughing gouges and diamond parting tools in the seated jig (SVD-50 is it). Roughing between centre work rarely protrudes far over the tool rest so doesn't interfere with the turning and when I'm parting deep cuts like on boxes between centres I find the tool really heats up so keeping that in the jig to tweak on a 1000 grit wheel really helps keep the cuts crisp and prevents the temper being drawn. The only time I take the tool out of the jig is if the reach over the tool rest causes the jig to catch. With the parting tool mounted, I don't even turn the tormek off, it's literally a foot swivel from the lathe.....bang bang...sharp again (and cooled), back to the lathe.
Interesting discussion, Rob. I've done a lot of woodworking, but I've never used a lathe. What you say about the tools needing sharpening makes sense. They're doing a lot of cutting duty.
The only thing I can think of that hits the wood faster and more often are the edges on router bits and the teeth on table saw blades.
Too bad they can't make the turning tools out of the same tungsten carbide as they use for router bits and saw blade teeth.
Yeah and it's the experience with sharpening turning tools that really lit the path for me about maintaining edge tools generally. Because turning is the polar extreme......it highlights the process of the need for maintenance really clearly
Everything else has the same principle....they just blunt more slowly over time
I know this sounds kinda dumb, I mean you sharpen when tools are dull right? Well turning threw into sharp relief the need for the frequency of the maintenance. It really hammers home the when. As you extend that principe to other edges you realise that the sooner you maintain after edge loss, the less work the re sharpening costs you. I would give kitchen knives as the best example of that principle in action. Bring to 100% on the Tormek then steel after that. And I'm not exaggerating when I say I do the steel every time I use them. It takes seconds, its no hassle, in my counter top knife block and assuming no drops or nicks....they last indefinitely like this.
They do now make some specialised carbide inserts for turning tools. They seem to have started with bits that can be Allen bolted to the ends of goose neck scrapers and hollowing tools for hollow forms in end grain. Now they're available for all sorts of different turning tools. I've not tried them myself yet but im tempted because less sharpening means more turning. One concern I have is that they will eventually dull and then you can't revive them I guess. The blackstone says it can touch up carbide but I'm skeptical to be truthful. Carbide is hellish hard stuff
For kitchen knives, I give it a few swipes with the diamond sharpening steel between sharpening sessions.
John,
The best answer will come from you. When your edge(s) start to get dull, try just using the leather honing wheel. See how the blade cuts then. If it cuts as well as before, you are done. If not, try starting with the 1000 grit of the finely graded stone. Again, see how it cuts. If is still doesn't cut as well, go back to the 220 and work your way through.
Your tool will give you the answer better than we can. There is value in just doing it.
Keep us posted.
Ken
Quote from: Rob on March 20, 2013, 10:54:26 AM
They do now make some specialised carbide inserts for turning tools.
According to Ron Hock, and this makes sense and appears to be true, the tungsten carbide that we see on our router bits and saw blade tips is too brittle to hold a small-angle edge. It breaks off near the very thin cutting edge.
QuoteThe blackstone says it can touch up carbide but I'm skeptical to be truthful. Carbide is hellish hard stuff
It may be that they've developed a less brittle, and therefore softer, version for these turning tool inserts.
The shop that sharpens my carbide table saw blades uses some type of diamond grinder.
Regarding disposable carbide tooling:
I can see the advantage of disposable carbide tooling for industry. Time is money, and it is much quicker to unscrew a carbide bit, throw it away, and begin again.
For a home shop or non production shop, I think that's a very unsatisfying option. It assumes the tool users are incapable of learning how to sharpen their tools or too lazy. Part of the satisfaction of using a very sharp tool is knowing we sharpened it and can resharpen it ourselves. "Self sufficiency" is part of our culture, part of our psyche.
In my opinion, the real draw of some of the more expensive jigs, like the drill bit sharpening jig, is the satisfaction of being able to restore quality tools to working condition, top working condition. That's very different than the throw away mentality.
I can resharpen, reshape, rewhatever high speed bits with the DBS-22. If my skill won't permit all of it today, the jig is well designed. It will be with me when my skill level develops. Carbide, being so hard, is much more limited. Minor touchups. I believe the keywords here are light and often. Don't let carbide get very dull.
I find it interesting in this era of A2 steel and powder metal alchemy that some of the top chisel and plane blade makers are also providing blades in 01 carbon steel. Yes, 01 requires more frequent sharpening. It will not retain sharpness as long as the more exotic steels. However, it is more easily sharpened AND it can be sharpened more keenly and more acutely. This is not just chisels and plane blades. Circular saw blades and router bits of high speed steel will cut more cleanly than carbide. They will just not cut as long. So, the question is quality or quantity. In saw blades and router bits, the resounding answer is usually quantity with reasonable quality.
I have been considering upgrading some of my plane blades to the newer premium blades. 01 or A2? Tough question. The blade for the jack plane may end up being A2. It has to handle rough work. The blade for the smoother will probably be 01 and need to be sharpened more frequently. It will need to be sharper to cut cleanly.
Complicating the question is the new Veritas alloy steel. It has the toughness of A2, and the ease of sharpening and ability to handle more acute angles of 01. It costs about a third more. Whatever blades I buy will someday be part of my estate, and there are not many of them, so cost is a minor factor.
Back to the original question: John, and the others, please don't fall for the trap of carbide and steels which "never need sharpening" (that's advertisingspeak for "never really sharp") Buy and use good tools with good steel and become proficient at maintaining and sharpening them. You will end up with more satisfaction.
Ken
When I salvaged my dad's old planes and brought them back to life, I was thinking that maybe the steel in those plane irons might be of superior quality. They're old, and as the saying goes, they don't make things like they used to. But I'm learning that when it comes to steel the opposite is true. We have available now a wider variety of tool steels, some are of course cheap junk, but many of them are far superior to what was available in the tools of 50 years ago.
Herman,
Yes, the premium blades from Ron Hock, Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen are quite amazing.
However, I have watched Ernie Conover tune and sharpen a couple very old Stanley planes with the original blades and then do some very fine planing with them. Don't underestimate your Dad's oldies when lovingly tuned and sharpened. (During that class I restored my grandfather's 1891 vintage Stanley Bailey jack plane. It's a trooper and back on active duty.)
Ken
This debate about carbide is interesting. My thoughts are kind of with Ken in that I know advertising speak when I hear it. Carbide gets positioned by the marketeers as virtually infallible.....but we know better :-)
Having said that, I wouldn't be without my 80 tooth table saw carbide tipped blade....the finish...lovely. But then the steep angle is appropriate.
But Hermans right about modern steel chemistry....I mean that lie Nielsen smoother....talk about zero chatter with that monster A2 blade....it's just a joy to behold and use. Actually, I would seriously consider putting one in a presentation case and hanging it up.....they are a form of sculpture in my view.
But I also restored my Dads war era Stanley bailey and it works a charm. It just doesn't feel quite as solid as the LN equivalent.....but it feels different for nostalgic reasons.....so because I care about it....those feelings get engineered into the work
Tell you what....I should put a new LN blade into my old plane.....that should be nirvana :-)
Rob,
If you are thinking nirvana, think Canadian. Our brothers to the north have some amazing plane blades.
Veritas (Lee Valley) has that amazing new powder alloy. Plus they flatten and polish their blade backs to tool and die shop tolerances. Your only complaint might be that you don't get to spend enough sharpening time with it.
Rob Cosman does a very impressive series of you tubes promoting his line of blades. I'm thinking of the one where he puts one of his wunderblades in an old Stanley plane and happily goes about making .001" full length shavings in maple.
A third Canadian option is IBC. Their blades sound impressive as well.
I have no doubt you would be delighted with a Lie-Nielsen or Ron Hock blade. Both are superb products. I just happen to think in this case, Veritas has a slight "edge" (sorry about the pun).
By the way, if you are planning to use your Dad's plane, and you should, do it right and buy the combination of a new blade and a new chip breaker. move on past one of the chief plane gremlins. Give your Dad's old Stanley the full chance to sing. I hope you will do this.
By the way, never put a L-N plane in a museum. Our museums are filled with lovely old musical instruments in pristine condition. They are still in that condition because they looked great, but weren't very playable. The real instruments became played out long ago. No L-N plane deserves that fate.
You are funny Ken :/)
I might just treat my Dads plane to a new combo of breaker and blade. I do use it now with the originals, more than any other plane in fact. I love it. I bet it would plane on its own with a Veritas blade and chip breaker :-)
Rob, check out Rob Cosman's videos. He is definitely a salesman, but his technique and products are very solid.
Ken
Will do
Hi Folks,
I think I started a good one here!
Some fantastic replies.
Thanks to all
John
No worries