On my high-end WW tools, my sharpening routine is:
1. Flatten backs using 3M Stickit rolls of 80-220 grit on a granite slab.
2. Polish backs up through 8,000 grit on Shapton Glasstones.
3. Re-grind the bevel on the Tormek; since virtually all of my blades are A2, I sharpen at 30 degrees.
4. Polish the bevel on 1,000 grit, then 8,000 grit Glasstones.
At the end of that process, assuming I took my time and didn't rush through or past a step (I just spent nearly 3 hours flattening the back of the iron in a new Lie-Nielsen 51), I have an incredibly sharp blade with a gorgeous bevel. However, I don't doubt that a proper leather stropping would improve it - and that's where I have a problem. If I take said blade and strop on the Tormek, the edge becomes worse, not better. I've tried very light pressure; rather heavy pressure; making contact at the heel of the bevel and then raising up slowly so that the edge is just kissed by the leather - it doesn't seem to matter, I end up with some degree of dubbing no matter what. I've seen the same results on every blade I've attempted to strop. With each attempt, I end up going back to the 8,000 Glasstone to put the edge back where I started.
How do I know I'm dubbing it? After the Glasstone, the edge reflects no light and cuts thin, loose paper cleanly. After the honing wheel, the edge reflects light and tears the same paper.
So here's an opportunity for someone to write a new chapter for the Wiki/sticky project - if you're a successful Tormek stropper, what's your secret? One other note, my honing wheel started out way over-oiled and to some degree still is. Perhaps the leather is just too yielding to work well because of that?
I'm kind of with you on this Mike
My wheel wasn't over oiled at the start but like you, generally I feel my edges are duller after strop ping than before. Now with turning tools (which really take a beating anyway) I int strop at all
With knives and plane irons which really get the most benefit I never know if Ive made them better or worse. Sometimes they slice paper "Jeff" style, other times they tear it. Now ironically, on a practical level it doesn't matter because when actually in use they are easily sharp enough, in other words despite not being perhaps " text book sharp"..... They work.
But like you it would be helpful to have a written procedure which if followed correctly always yielded a great repeatable result
Jeff, in fairness has answered this before which is basically sneak up on the edge to avoid rounding it. I do this painstakingly carefully now. Still think im doing something wrong though cos its not guaranteed
I wish I could help you, Mike. I'm not very good with the honing wheel, either. Have you tried the finest diamond paste on a wood block?
Wow! A Lie-Nielsen Shoot board plane! That's a serious tool. The closest I've come to one is my (unused) old Lion Trimmer. The 51 seems just the ticket for crisp fitting miters. I can see where you would want that blade (at the very least) razor sharp. Please post your thoughts after using it.
Ken
USING it!!?? You mean run the risk of scratching it? ;D
You could say I'm on a lifelong pursuit of blurring the line between collecting and using. I don't want to own anything I'm afraid to use, but want to keep all my "users" in collectible condition. It's a hard line to walk. The 51 will most definitely be used, but not immediately.
My 51 is part of the first run of 100, electro-pencil signed by The Man. Interestingly, this iron required more flattening time than any other LN iron I own (which is more than a few). They did their usual quick swipes at LN, but apparently not as many as they usually do. I had to take it all the way back to 80 grit on granite and work up from there. It's good now though. 8) I would have suspected it was just a result of the massive size of the iron, but the iron in my LN #8 was closer to being ready out of the box.
A genuine Lion trimmer would be a thing to behold. Perfect miters combined with medieval manliness. A tool that screams, "In your face, lawyers!" One of those would be on my list if only I had the room for it.
Mike,
First, if you're using that 8000 grit stone correctly (and it sounds like you are), there's nothing to be gained by using the leather wheel. They're accomplishing almost the same thing. The leather wheel can get to nearly the same point much faster, but the bevel will be straighter and more polished off the bench stone, if you have mastered using the bench stone and devote the time necessary.
As for getting a good working edge off the leather, most folks who aren't getting what they want:
aren't using enough compound (the process should be a little messy)
are bringing the angle up too high
aren't spending enough time on the strop
aren't using very much pressure
or a combination of the above.
Quote from: Jeff Farris on March 12, 2013, 05:33:38 PM
As for getting a good working edge off the leather, most folks who aren't getting what they want:
aren't using enough compound (the process should be a little messy)
are bringing the angle up too high
aren't spending enough time on the strop
aren't using very much pressure
or a combination of the above.
Another punchy classic for newbs
Jeff, thanks for replying. I would think that the chances of dubbing are directly related to the amount of pressure applied. In other words, the more pressure, the "further around the edge" the leather will "wrap," having a rounding effect. I'm interested in better understanding this dynamic. I know a lot of guys strop on hard horse butt leather glued to a flat substrate, and they use a lot of pressure with great success. I would think they would dub their edges too, but apparently I'm missing something.
"Rounding" isn't as bad as it seems, it if isn't taken too far. It's sort of like the theory of a micro-bevel. A bit of rounding adds some meat to the edge. Now, if you're getting it to the point that the edge reflects light, you've gone way over the top. Try it instead of going through your bench stones and see if you don't get 95% of the edge quality in 20% of the time involved.
My gut feeling is that most of us (including me) have not practiced enough with the leather honing wheel to be proficient. A number of us have become proficient with the 8000 grit water stones. I believe at this point, we are comparing proficiency with lack of proficiency. (Note to self: spend some disciplined practice time with the honing wheel.)
Ken
I've sometimes had the feeling that after using the honing wheel I was losing sharpness too (chisels/plane blades). I couldn't define or measure just what the difference was, but I was pretty sure they could be better. Sometimes the same plane would feel great and other times just not doing the job (on the same wood). Interesting that others have the same impression. I haven't been very active lately so I have a collection of chisels and plane blades waiting for attention. So I will see how that goes.
I got a lathe at the end of last summer, and after a few months of use, I concluded that the turning tools were better off without honing. For the time they last when turning hardwoods it was easier and quicker to just tickle them up on the stone. Not worth the time to set up and hone, and no noticeable advantage in the performance or time the tool would last.
Quote from: RobinW on March 12, 2013, 11:29:23 PM
I've sometimes had the feeling that after using the honing wheel I was losing sharpness too (chisels/plane blades). I couldn't define or measure just what the difference was, but I was pretty sure they could be better. Sometimes the same plane would feel great and other times just not doing the job (on the same wood). Interesting that others have the same impression. I haven't been very active lately so I have a collection of chisels and plane blades waiting for attention. So I will see how that goes.
I got a lathe at the end of last summer, and after a few months of use, I concluded that the turning tools were better off without honing. For the time they last when turning hardwoods it was easier and quicker to just tickle them up on the stone. Not worth the time to set up and hone, and no noticeable advantage in the performance or time the tool would last.
I agree 100%....turning tools take such a bashing that honing would be like "polishing a turd"
(fro Mike): "My 51 is part of the first run of 100, electro-pencil signed by The Man."
Mike, my Bedrocks are signed by Fred Flintstone with a cold chisel! (just kidding)...."The Man (Tom Lie-Nielsen) certainly knows how to make quality tools. His Stanley inspired planes are leagues beyond the originals. Your 51 is certainly a prime tool. (Don't be afraid to use it!) By the way, have you ever met Tom Lie-Nielsen? (You might want to answer this in handtools. we are getting off topic.)
Ken
I think we're in Handtools. :D I have not met him personally but have spoken with him a few times on the phone - probably because I started buying his tools about 21 years ago, and back then he was as likely as anyone to answer the phone. I believe he still would if he heard it ring too many times. I recall in one conversation he was about to introduce the Boggs spokeshave and seemed genuinely interested in my thoughts on it. Not just a passing, patronizing interest, but a real desire to know how a customer would use it and what they would like or not like in it. I don't make it a habit of deifying people, but TLN in my humble opinion, is almost single-handedly responsible for the resurgence of hand tools we see today, and as a result of that, for bringing back hand tool skills virtually from the dead. Every other small and large company that is now seeing success in the hand tool market owes him a debt of gratitude beyond measure. I've wondered what the succession plans are for LN; I assume he will retire at some point. But as long as he, or Deneb, or someone there is making tools at the level they have for the first 30+ years, I hope to be fortunate enough to buy them.
Speaking of Deneb - the first time I encountered him was at one of The Woodworking Shows in Kansas City. He was but a young buck with a pony tail halfway to his butt, but OMG could that guy make tools sing. I know Jeff will remember that. Who knew all these years later he'd be the VP and heir-apparent.
Actually I was in Jeff's audience in those days too, I just couldn't afford a Tormek at the time - usually because there was almost always a vendor selling Bessey K-Bodies for half of what they normally go for, and I couldn't get them like that at any other time of the year. Which kind of worked out for me in the long run, because I really like all the improvements that have come together in the T7. I still remember standing there in the Tormek crowd thinking, "How does that guy talk all day and not lose his voice??" ;D
Very nice post, Mike. (Yes, we are in handtools.....senior moment..)
You might be interested in a recent podcast on the finewoodworkingwebsite. it is a very long and fascinating interview with Robin Lee, President of Lee Valley and Veritas. He describes his thoughts on the differences between his company's tools/philosophy and those of Lie-Nielsen. His comments are very positive with good insight and the good manners one would expect from someone from Canada. Interesting tool and steel thoughts, too.
I have enjoyed Deneb's videos on the L-N site. I would enjoy meeting him someday, as I would that guy who demoed the Tormek.
Ken
I hadn't seen that podcast, I'll definitely check it out. Rob's tools are first rate - very innovative - and he has set an entirely new standard for customer service (and I didn't think it could get any better than LN). I have his small plough, mostly because one of the things he excels at is bringing new tools to market very quickly. If LN had gotten their plough to market when they said they were going to, I can almost guarantee that's the one I would've bought. But that's one of those models LN keeps saying is coming, but never seems to. Supposedly their big priority for this year is the compass plane. I hope that happens.
Mike,
I have one of the Veritas plough planes (my only L-N or Veritas plane). What a well designed and manufactured tool! The "compleat" collector in me made me purchase all the extra blades, inch and metric. I have had only superb service from Lee Valley (Veritas).
I suspect Lee Valley is much better capitalized than L-N. I am very glad we have both.
Getting back to honing on the leather wheel: I think there are two subsets of things which can't be done on a Tormek. The first is "Tools the tormek Can't Sharpen", tools well beyond the purpose of the tool. An example of this would be circular or bandsaw blades. The second (and larger catagory) would be "Tools I Don't have the Skill to Sharpen on the Tormek". (through no fault of the Tormek) This group is made up of those tools Jeff can sharpen through years of experience. I put honing in that group. I hope to lessen the size of that group.
Ken
Very good subject and information in this post.
Just thought I mention this you probably know this anyway the honing paste is 6,000 grit so in my eyes the scratch pattern would be deeper than 8,000 stone.
I think we can sometimes can be a little too obsessive when it comes to getting a sharp edge. That superfine edge, ( I am talking the ultimate edge here), will not last more than a few short minutes under
working conditions anyway and then you are left with the less sharp edge you would have achieved without all that extra work. I am not saying one should not strive for the ultimate edge if that is what it takes
to make him happy, but I don't believe we actually need it for woodworking most of the time. I think from a woodworking perspective it is most practical to use enough time to get an edge suitable for the
work at hand. Sometimes that might require time to get that ultimate edge. Just my personal opinion. I know how strongly folks feel about what they consider an acceptable edge and I respect that.
I've found that it's all about matching the edge angle to the task. A good general angle is about 25o. But if you work it too hard it'll quickly dull or chip. 30o is more suitable for hammering, whereas 20o is good for hand paring.
Of course, adjustments also have to made for the hardness of the wood.
I agree
Mike,
I finally have the space to unpack some of the hand tools I have inherited or accumulated over the years. Many of these tools were last sharpened by previous owners. In general they are very sharp. Some of the bevels show multiple angles from hand sharpening. I doubt the piece of wood being planed, chiseled or shaved would know the difference between a skillfully hand sharpened tool or a Tormek sharpened tool. An obsessive/compulsive edge might not stand out either, especially after the first few cuts.
I wonder how often the great cabinetmakers of the past would continue using a chisel when they first noticed it was not cutting as well as when freshly sharpened? (Especially when on deadline or at the end of the day....) I am guilty of this, also.
Ken
Ken, in many cases I suspect they used it until it just couldn't be used anymore, and then they would give it to the apprentice, or the new kid on the crew (whichever scenario and/or time period applied) and just expect it to be handed back to them ready to go.
Ken, I've found that many of these old tools that have been hand-sharpened over a period of many years have a bevel that's too blunt. Sharpening with the Tormek will get them back to their most effective edge angle. A lot of steel will have to be removed to do that and the Tormek, as you know, is up to the task. Hand sharpening would take a lot more time and effort.
Quote from: KSMike on July 10, 2013, 08:52:18 PM
Ken, in many cases I suspect they used it until it just couldn't be used anymore, and then they would give it to the apprentice, or the new kid on the crew (whichever scenario and/or time period applied) and just expect it to be handed back to them ready to go.
In my experience those dull chisels would be used in places where it's possible that nails could be encountered. No one minds chipping a dull chisel, but try hitting a nail with the new boss's sharp chisel and you'll be sent to tote lumber.
I really never knew what it was like to use a sharp chisel until I had a Tormek. My father never maintained his very well, and neither did I. When a sharp chisel was needed a new one was bought. Most carpenters in the house-building trades don't even carry a chisel, but many do.
A sharp chisel can be a hazard on the job site. How would you like to be looking upward at a newbie on the scaffold when his razor-sharp chisel falls out of his nail bag?
Good points, Herman.
I was surprised several years ago. I was chatting with several carpenters I know. The lead carpenter would spend some time occasionally sharpening several chisels (I think very occasionally). One of the other carpenters seemed to "sharpen" his chisel be buying a new one which was already "sharp".
I don't mean to be an arm chair critic. It's easy to lean that way when one isn't doing carpentry for a living. These guys did skillful and careful work as well as being amiable.
Some of my telephone tools were in rough shape, so I'm in no position to throw stones.
It is a joy to use a truly sharp tool.
Ken
I spent twelve years in the house construction business as a carpenter...in Montana, Colorado and British Columbia. I always carried a chisel and it was always sharp. Got a job in British Columbia working with a bunch a Danes and every time we transitioned from the rough construction to the inside finish work, we would spend a half a day sharpening things. We sharpened handsaws, plane irons, chisels and skilsaw blades all on the job site.
But maybe I/we were an anomaly in that as I knew quite a few carpenters that had no idea how to sharpen anything...or even what sharp meant.
I have just sharpened six chisels for someone - that was after he'd cleaned the paint and other detritus off first!
I flattened the backs initially on the side of the Tormek wheel, then with 800 grit waterstone; then with 4000 grit waterstone; and then honed up (polished might be a better description) on the Tormek leather wheel. Result was mirror like surfaces.
I then ground the primary bevel at 30 degrees on the Tormek wheel; regraded the surface of the wheel to fine and went over primary bevel again. Then I honed this primary bevel on the leather wheel (all nice and shiny and very smooth)
I then ground the secondary bevel on the fine graded wheel, and then honed up on the leather wheel.
The real effort was getting the backs flat. The rest didn't take too long. All grinding and honing was using the SE76. The only time I free-handed anything was getting the backs flat.
However I did a few quick tests on the way - difficult to measure so it comes to subjective feel - and I still think that using the leather honing wheel is taking the edge off the secondary bevel a bit. They are still very sharp, but I still get the impression that if I had done the secondary bevel using lighter and lighter strokes on the fine graded wheel I would have a sharper edge.
Robin...did you read that article that was posted yesterday from that Canadian guy? Let me see if I can hunt it down...it had some interesting things to say about using a soft strop. I'll post back in a tick
Here it is.
He concludes that stropping BOTH buggers up the angle profile you had originally intended when setting the jig AND degrades the integrity of the steel at the very tip by affecting it's structure.
I have to be honest, I've always had my doubts about the honing process. Obviously you improve the performance by removing the burr...but anything beyond that???
I have to say that without electron microscopy etc I have no opinion on the changing of the physical nature of the steel...he quotes metallurgists saying this is well known in the engineering business, but the idea that honing changes the angle at the tip of the edge makes logical sense to me. It is after all abrading the metal and typically it is used freehand ie without the exact same angle as that which the jig helped you achieve when sharpening. (A case for bothering to rejig for honing in fact)
My personal experience is that, whilst you certainly get a mirror finish, I can't hand on heart say the edge is sharper. I've done loads of different tests to try and get this. I also absolutely 100% reject any technique errors on my part with respect to honing...I am now super duper careful not to roll the edge...I even use magnifying glasses to really see close up how the edge is with respect to the wheel. I've watched Jeff's videos many times and I can replicate that procedure with certainty.
My take is burr off is obviously a good thing......that great piece of junk on the end is no good to anyone. But any more than that is putting your carefully jigged edge at risk. Having said that, I can definitely bring a little bit more performance to a chisel edge that's just gone off the boil with a strop but no sharpen??? Go figure. It doesn't seem to make logical sense.
I'm not going to comment on any other author's methods or writings. As far as using a Tormek goes, if you take the edge off with the honing wheel, you did something wrong. It's easy to do, but it's also easy to correct. You're bringing the angle too high. The solution is to not bring the angle too high. ;D
Think about it this way. there's no penalty whatsoever for having the angle too flat, so always err in that direction. Start flat and carefully bring the angle up until the edge just gets to the leather. Kiss the edge, don't maul it.
Robin, it might not be a great idea to use a secondary bevel on a chisel as it might be more difficult to hone a a secondary bevel on the leather wheel. I'm thinking that a secondary (micro) bevel is so small that there is little room for error and not much support while you are honing compared to using the whole bevel for support otherwise. I'm thinking the same might hold true for plane blades too. Just a thought as I have almost no experience with my new Tormek yet.
Quote from: Jeff Farris on July 12, 2013, 05:36:02 AM
I'm not going to comment on any other author's methods or writings. As far as using a Tormek goes, if you take the edge off with the honing wheel, you did something wrong. It's easy to do, but it's also easy to correct. You're bringing the angle too high. The solution is to not bring the angle too high. ;D
Think about it this way. there's no penalty whatsoever for having the angle too flat, so always err in that direction. Start flat and carefully bring the angle up until the edge just gets to the leather. Kiss the edge, don't maul it.
That's precisely the problem Jeff. I'm already (definitely) doing that and have been for some time in fact. The fact that that procedure doesn't consistently yield the results you report is what causes my head scratching on this.
What it keeps coming back to (no disrespect intended) is something of a crisis of faith in the whole leather stropping method. Anyway, not to worry, it's not preventing me from doing anything I want with my tools so it's something of an academic debate really. What attracts me to that Canadian chaps article is the credibility it conveys because he actually observes each edge with powerful optics after each test procedure. There is no requirement for "faith" on the part of the reader...it's right there in the picture. That's a pretty powerful argument. I appreciate that's pitched against your many years selling Tormeks and the results you report.
I'm sure this debate will run and run....
Out of curiosity, don't suppose Tormek have any published research data (scanning electron microscopy images) on edges before and after stropping do they? That would be very interesting to see and would help inform the procedure specific to their capability.
http://tormek.com/media/268468/wet_or_dry_en.pdf
At 40X magnification I can clearly see that the scratch pattern in the steel is refined when switching from coarse to fine graded grindstone. Honing on the leather wheel shines up the flat spots between the scratches, but the scratches are all still there.
I think this is the purpose of the Japanese Waterstone (SJ). It would likely fill in that gap bteween the SG grindstone and the honing wheel.
I think the purpose of the honing wheel is simply to remove the burr. It can of course be used to polish surfaces, but that's a secondary purpose.
Interesting results on the tests. I'm looking forward to trying it out with my turning tools. Will a lighter finger pressure and more time on the stone create a smoother bevel and better base for the honing wheel?
I found this while searching "Lion Trimmer". I think it is a very interesting topic, and hope today's readers will enjoy it.
Ken
I did read that entire thread in fact Ken and you're right it was really interesting. I particularly liked the discussion about Lie Neilsen and Veritas.