Somewhere recently I noticed a comment, possibly by Herman, that he had only used 2 tubes of honing compound over several years or so. (I think I have that right - apologies if incorrect.) I've used that in just over a year, and I'm a low user of the machine.
I find that I have to apply honing compound every time I use the machine, and keep topping it up if I am honing a few chisels. I did use some oil when the machine was new as per the instructions, but I feel that the honing wheel is very firm or dried out. It does say in the book of words that oil can be added, but I haven't tried that yet.
How do you find your wheels? Is there any give in the feel of the leather? Should there be any give in the leather? How often do you apply compound? Anyone added any more oil?
I bought two tubes in 2002 but have not yet finished using one!
If the honing wheel is really dry, you could add some oil. I had mine over-oiled for many years and have only recently gotten it dried out enough that it's now working properly. I usually add a dab of compound every sharpening session.
I don't know how to tell if the wheel needs oil. I can tell you that if it has a shine to it, and when you touch it you leave behind a finger print, it's over-oiled.
+1. I greatly over-oiled mine as well. It's getting better but is still oilier than it should be. I think you want the leather to have enough oil so as not to be "bone dry" but very little more.
Sort of related, I'm always amazed to see in Jeff's videos where he holds the tube up to the rotating wheel and it takes a long strip of compound directly from the tube. When I do that, the wheel just pushes the compound into a big mess on the end of the tube, and picks up none of it on its own. Whether that's because my wheel is still over-oiled, I'm not sure. So I have to squeeze it out onto my finger and "push" it into the rotating leather (which carries a bit of risk, once the wheel starts to accumulate some steel residue over time).
Mike, with the top of the wheel rotating towards you, rotate the top of the tube towards you so that the end of the tube meets the wheel at a slight angle.
Mike....simply place the tube at dead right angles to the leather ( while moving of course) and also as far left as it will go before falling off the wheel.
You then squeeze and drag to the right quite quickly...sort of like a print head in an inkjet printer. By keeping the nozzle square on to the wheel....it squashes the paste quite evenly across the leather. The right movement combined with the speed prevents the residue building up around the neck of the threads
Pretty sure I've tried it that way, but I'll do it again. Thanks.
Quote from: RobinW on March 07, 2013, 03:40:29 AM
Somewhere recently I noticed a comment, possibly by Herman, that he had only used 2 tubes of honing compound over several years or so. (I think I have that right - apologies if incorrect.) I've used that in just over a year, and I'm a low user of the machine.
I find that I have to apply honing compound every time I use the machine, and keep topping it up if I am honing a few chisels. I did use some oil when the machine was new as per the instructions, but I feel that the honing wheel is very firm or dried out. It does say in the book of words that oil can be added, but I haven't tried that yet.
How do you find your wheels? Is there any give in the feel of the leather? Should there be any give in the leather? How often do you apply compound? Anyone added any more oil?
Hi Robin
Jeff's advice was very clear on this in an earlier post.....if you oiled the wheel at the start....dont oil it again. Just use honing compound each time you use it. One charge of compound is good for a few tools worth of honing. Basically the compond provides both the lubrication and of course the very fine abrasive you need
It may be necessary to add some oil to a really old leather wheel that's dried out. especially if it was never conditioned properly to begin with.
So when you are using the honing wheel, should the paste come off as a paste on your knife? Or should it flake off as powder?
Also, can you use the honing wheel as a quick touchup? Sort of like a mechanical sharpening steel?
I am not sure I am using the honing wheel correctly. It never did much for me.
Anything that omes off my honing wheel is a wet paste. I've never really tried to use it bring an edge back.
Can you polish freshly-ground steel to a mirror surface with your honing wheel?
I've used the honing wheel to touch up both kitchen knives and carbon steel bench chisels but only when they're still quite but not very sharp
The strop seems to be able to rescue a during edge just a bit because there is just noticeable performance improvement. However once they're even close to blunt you'll never hone them back
Thank you for your answers. Much appreciated.
Right now, I use a diamond honing steel if I don't want to bring up the Tormek.
I'm thinking about getting something like that to sharpen my pocket knives. I need something that'll help me maintain a constant grinding angle because I can't do it reliably when I freehand with either the Tormek or a wet stone. Never tried the diamond honing steel.
Hey Herman,
Have you ever seen the hand jig systems like this?
http://www.gatcosharpeners.com/product/sharp_systems/edgemate_pro_sys.mgi
I'm not recommending this, just the first one I found for an example. There are a bunch of similar devices ranging from $25 to $300 bucks.
Thanks grepper, that's just the kind of thing I'm looking for. Price seems right, too. I bet a follow up on the Tormek honing wheel would be just dandy. And what's it ya say? Bob's your uncle!
Anybody else have any recommendations?
I have the exact thing. It works well. I did not like it because I don't have patience.
The stone is way smaller than the Tormek. A 10 inch tormek has 31.4 inch x 3 inch (or was it 2 inch) of grinding surface. That little stone has half inch by 4 inch of grinding surface. It means that after a few strokes, your stone will be completely glazed over - even your rough stone - and be useless. If you think the Tormek glaze over fast, you will be totally surprised with how quickly that stone will glaze over. Also, since you are not going at 2826 inches a minute where a little glazing can be tolerated because you have so much linear speed, a little glazing really slows you down. I upgraded to diamond stones on the Lasky system right away because of this.
Second, once I got used to Tormek grinding at 90 rpm or 2826 inches per minute, I couldn't bring myself to use a slow system with a small stone. Even a diamond small stone is just so slow.
Cool Rhino. Someone who has one! Got to remember Herman is talking pocket knives, so in this case small stones are fine. Diamonds work great. I sure wish Tormek would come up with a solution for very small blades. I've suggested something that can grab the handle.
A few more. There are lots of them.
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/
http://www.expeditionexchange.com/edgepro/
http://www.kmesharp.com/kmeknshsy.html
http://eze-lap.com/hunting_fishing_outdoor_use/knife-sharpening-kit/
http://loraysharpener.com/page2.php
I use a DMT Aligner. They use diamond stones. Amazon, as well as others, carry them.
http://www.dmtsharp.com/news-events/press-releases/dmts-exciting-new-innovations-to-aligner-guided-knife-sharpening-system/
If you want to spend more money, there is the Edge Pro
http://www.edgeproinc.com/
or the Wicked Edge.
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/
I have this DMT system.
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Deluxe-Aligner-P2C24.aspx
It has a plastic clamp thing. It's a little crappy IMHO. It works sort of OK, but I can't really recommend it.
The diamond stones are great. In fact I used one of them tonight to touch up the inner side of some scissors. In fact I've used the stones a lot.
I know it may look cheap, but I respectfully disagree with you Mark. I have put mine through the paces and it has held up well and works well. It is slow if you are changing or trying to straighten up the profile, however. That why we have the Tormek! :D
Interesting to hear Elden. You are not alone in thinking it works well. I only purchased it after reading positive reviews such as yours.
My issues are:
1. The clamp is a little thick compared to how the metal ones appear in their ads. I suffered sort of the same kind of issues with very small knives that have a short spine to edge distance, as I do with the Tormek. The stone hits the edge of the clamp before contacting the blade. With the Tormek, the clamp hits the wheel.
2. I didn't like the bendy little plastic rod that you twist to slide and lock into place to adjust the angle. Got to admit... It never broke though!
When I looked at the metal clamps, they looked as if they might work better for very small knives. However, the DMT is the only one I have ever tried. It is completely possible that other "systems" have their own issues too.
The clamp, being plastic, has to be thicker to be stiff. It appears that some of the metal ones are thinner. But I must say again that I have only used the DMT. For larger knives it's not an issue... But then I'd use the Tormek!
I've read reviews that said exactly what you did. Looks cheap, but has worked for years.
The DMT diamond stones have worked well.
I don't mean to disparage a product unnecessarily and the DMT never broke or anything like that. I am just extremely picky before I would outright recommend a product. :)
I really appreciate hearing your opinion on this too Elden. Very interesting.
Thanks!
Mark
So diamonds aren't just a girls best friend now then eh chaps? 8)
Mark,
As you said the diamond hones are great. To the original kit, I added the XX coarse, X coarse, ceramic, a second medium, a second guide and holder. I had questions that the holder would last, but it has. Understand your view about thickness.
The Tormek gets the knife done in a fraction of the time of the DMT and does it well, but it is a little hard to hold it on my lap while sitting in my recliner! ;D Sometimes I still enjoy the hands on time of hand honing.
Thanks Mark and Elden for your thoughtful comments, recommendations, and choices. I don't want to spend a lot of money. I already have the Tormek. What I want is something simple that'll work well for pocket knives that are too small for the Tormek jigs.
I like the idea of the diamond stone. I've never used one and am anxious to give them a try. I'm thinking about one of these two systems:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=dmt+a-prokit
The only difference I see between these two kits is the more expensive one comes with a plastic case and a ceramic rod for serrated edges? Is that right?
Yup. Looks that way to me. Just check the gits of the stones, I think they are the same. I have the pouch one. Nice sturdy pouch that fits into a drawer nicely.
The diamond stones will cut a little more aggressively when new, but then they settle down to whatever they are suppose to be. I too purchased one more aggressive stone. I find I end up using the blue course one a lot.
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Diamond-Flat-File-P236C104.aspx
I also purchased this flat file. Works great for sharpening wire cutters where you can't get anything else between the jaws. Finally, sharp wire cutters again!
Hi Herman,
You may want to try this http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1191.msg3308#msg3308 (http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1191.msg3308#msg3308) for small knives before you invest more, it costs about 2.37 cents and a couple of minutes.
All the best,
Ionut
Ionut,
Your small knife jig was a very good idea when you posted it, and it still is. It remains one of the best examples I have seen of the potential to go beyond the basic Tormek use. I'm glad you reposted it.
Ken
Herman,
Actually they are the same kits only with the one having the case. They did not have that when I got mine. I made a wooden holding case for mine. You can see the taper for the serrated knives in the picture of the $49 set although it is not mentioned. Unless they have changed it, it is diamond as well. This is the taper I have mentioned using in my other posts.
Ionut,
I ran across your thread on the rest some time ago while going through the old threads. It looks great. It's been on the to do list, it just hasn't made it to the done list yet. :) I want to say that I have enjoyed reading all your past postings and am glad you are posting again!
Quote from: ionut on March 09, 2013, 07:42:02 PM
You may want to try this http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1191.msg3308#msg3308 (http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1191.msg3308#msg3308) for small knives before you invest more, it costs about 2.37 cents and a couple of minutes.
Here's my version. I used the base of the scissors jig, an old blade from a lawn edger, and two tiny c-clamps.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b553/htrivilino/007_zpsbbfa1b5a.jpg)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b553/htrivilino/006_zpsf1e88b6d.jpg)
This was a learning experience for me. It has potential. I grabbed a couple of old paring knives that had been delegated to the scrap pile and practiced. I got 'em sharp, but they don't look pretty.
It's going to take a lot more practice with this homemade jig before I can make a judgment call.
I will say this, though, I'm glad I practiced with knives that I don't care about.
I think the first knife that people sharpen with a Tormek should be a knife they don't care about. One that they could just as well throw away as sharpen. Once sharp they can use it if they like, or move on to a knife they do plan on using.
Hi Herman
That looks good, if you grind a bevel on that metal piece, to a very thin edge, it will allow you to get very close to the stone and then you could rest the entire blade of a small knife on the support and control the angle perfectly, That would only needed for very small or narrow knives. And if you turn the clamps upside down they'll be out of your way. Your version is cheaper than mine :)
I am not much of a knife sharpener, but when I put that thing together I had a very small pocket knife and it all went perfectly almost the entire blade width was supported by the rest.
Ionut
Very 8) Herman. Come up with some chunk of steel plate and..., Bob's your uncle. Heavy duty too! Ionut's idea of grinding it to an edge about finishes it off. Huh... Cool.
Herman,
Along with your idea of using a knife you don't care about, I picked up three serrated knives and a little bottle of peppermint oil today at a rummage sale for $1. The knives are for practice. One knife is made in Germany, the second is Sheffield steel from England (has cheap looking handle), and the third from China. The one from China is beveled on both sides and the points are rounded, different than any I have seen before. Thought it might be fun to play with. Suppose I should have picked up the rest of the Chinese made ones with them going for that kind of price, but didn't. My wife wanted to know why I was getting them, but let it go when I said they were for practice! ;)
It's always interesting to see just how soft the steel is on those cheap knives. I don't think they were ever intended to be sharpened, just used for a while then thrown away or sold.
I remember when I was a child my brother made a butcher knife from an old industrial power hacksaw blade. I bet he still has it.
Quote from: ionut on March 09, 2013, 11:33:35 PM
That looks good, if you grind a bevel on that metal piece, to a very thin edge, it will allow you to get very close to the stone and then you could rest the entire blade of a small knife on the support and control the angle perfectly, That would only needed for very small or narrow knives. And if you turn the clamps upside down they'll be out of your way.
I took your advice and am happy to announce great success.
I will post pictures in a new thread.
Rhino commented - "So when you are using the honing wheel, should the paste come off as a paste on your knife? Or should it flake off as powder?"
I did oil the honing leather when new, took it easy using small amounts of a thin oil, until I was satisfied it was evenly absorbed by the leather.
If I apply paste and start honing I try and spread it over the whole width of the leather using my finger or a chisel. However as the honing starts it builds up on the back of the chisel, so I wipe it onto my finger and re-apply it to the wheel. The next thing I notice is like Rhino's comment, I start getting flakes coming off. I thought this was flakes of leather so apply some more paste if I thought the wheel was drying off.
So what should I be looking for? Should paste still be seen as a cream on the chisel? Are the flakes leather or dried up paste and nothing to worry about?
Pretty sure the flakes are old dried up paste that's coating the wheel. It should be black in appearance. You're certainly describing what happens with mine ie paste wet to begin....then as you hone it either ends up on the tool but eventually beds ino the wheel and dries
If the blade digs a little close to the wheel it digs up those dried flakes
That's how it is on mine and mine works so I guess that's normal
I never get dry flakes, only paste. Usually very dark and dirty paste. But then my wheel may still be suffering from the effects of my having over oiled it in the past.
Any dry flakes come after quite a lot of honing...the paste remains wet for a little while