I have wondered about who began this forum and that person's intentions for it.
I have only been a member since 2009. At that time, no one had posted the fifty posts in order to qualify as a junior member. Of those actively posting at that time, only Herman and I are still active. The most active posts only had around twenty postings.
After a very cursory glance, it would appear the forum may have begun in 2003. (That's when Jeff's data should his membership began.) I am curious as to how much Tormek AB in Sweden has been involved in either the startup or ongoing direction of the forum. I would also be interested in learning the founding expectation "parameters" for the forum.
I have not seen any posts from anyone directly associated with Tormek AB. I have received two emails from an official in the company in Sweden. I had posted a comment critical (in a constructive way) of what I believed was a lack of video training aids. For the record, I still feel that lack remains.
The founders apparently did not envision having photos included with posts. While this may have been more difficult in 2003, I have not seen any effort put forth by the forum administration to facilitate posting photographs.
I have continued my grumbling about the lack of good training material in several private intraforum emails. I believe Tormek AB is missing a very good opportunity to increase sales by leaving so many users lacking confidence. I think it would be a fine addition to this forum to include solid training materials presented in an organized way which would not necessitate the iffy search protocols.
My impish side thought we should offer this help in at least two languages. I would call them "fish and chips" and "Big Mac". We are, after all, "two nations divided by a common language". Including local terms together with explanation would add spice to the learning.
I have doubts as to who would take charge of such a project. While we have some enthusiastic helpers, in my opinion, the only person on this forum with the breadth and depth of Tormek knowledge and field experience is Jeff. Such a project might involve a lot more time than administering a forum. To do the project well should involve photos, illustrations, and video.
Perhaps a good start would be an article about setting up the Tormek and sharpening a chisel. A second article might be sharpening and maintaining knives.
Because of the nature of the forum, the project could start small and evolve.
I welcome your thoughts.
Ken
I think with the technology available these days, any company which does not incorporate training/demonstration videos of their equipment is missing a trick. It not only helps the customer it generates future customers, and also helps the company's own staff understand the product better.
My one comment about any training, and this may sound unusual in the first instance, is show what to do when things don't work or if it's broken. There is no point in showing only the idealistic result ie an expert demonstrating something and it all works perfectly. That's what we all aspire to, but the road to success is somewhat different!
Look at how many times people have listed problems trying to get a straight edge on a chisel using the SE76. There is a good video showing Jeff hacking at a blade and resharpening it and lo it all works. It was a major factor (with the other videos) which convinced me to buy a T7. But like many others, I couldn't manage to reproduce the same result. That's when people post messages doubting their purchase as they don't have rapid success, and if you have too many of that type your reputation will suffer. It took a while, but I can now sharpen my chisels to the standards I desired, and I have my own little ways of correcting deficiencies.
When I was working (control systems for marine and offshore applications) any training I did, particularly onboard ship, I would show the ideal situation eg press the button and the fully automatic system would do the rest. The next step was to move to the stage of what to do when it doesn't work, and go through manual recovery process to shut a system down or make it safe. Then get into the rectification phase. The more this type of recovery type work was done for different scenarios, getting the customer's staff to be hands on and do it, the better their understanding and increased confidence. I also made sure that the manuals incorporated a similar approach.
This is what could be done for chisel sharpening (and other Tormek items). Identify the types of problems experienced with photos/videos and show the tweaks etc of how to get round them. If a picture is worth a thousand words, what is a video with audio worth?
Quote from: Ken S on March 03, 2013, 11:18:18 PM
I have wondered about who began this forum and that person's intentions for it.
There can be no doubt the purpose was commercial interest. By managing the message and genuinely helping Tormek users, sales of jigs and original units would doubtless increase because greater value would be derived from using the tools correctly. In business, if greater value is delivered...sales generally increase. Tormek and their distribution channels would all have long realised that their product takes some knowledge and skill to get the best from....what better way to reach their audience with a modest cost....a special interest group. Its a perfect solution, low cost, massive reach (the English speaking world) and it genuinely helps all the protagonists....manufacturer, distributor, customer.
I have only been a member since 2009. At that time, no one had posted the fifty posts in order to qualify as a junior member. Of those actively posting at that time, only Herman and I are still active. The most active posts only had around twenty postings.
After a very cursory glance, it would appear the forum may have begun in 2003. (That's when Jeff's data should his membership began.) I am curious as to how much Tormek AB in Sweden has been involved in either the startup or ongoing direction of the forum. I would also be interested in learning the founding expectation "parameters" for the forum. As would I. But as stated above my take is....revenue growth and possibly an input into the R&D process would have been the justification in all probability.
I have not seen any posts from anyone directly associated with Tormek AB. I have received two emails from an official in the company in Sweden. I had posted a comment critical (in a constructive way) of what I believed was a lack of video training aids. For the record, I still feel that lack remains. My experience of anyone in a "support" role doesnt openly invite more problem dialogue other than through their existing channels....it can swamp a manufacturer. My guess is the forum is monitored for particularly useful R&D input and to test the mood of opinion etc. Intelligence gathering in short.
The founders apparently did not envision having photos included with posts. While this may have been more difficult in 2003, I have not seen any effort put forth by the forum administration to facilitate posting photographs. Not sure I agree with that...I loaded a bunch today and they seemed to work OK although I did have to do the learning myself.
I have continued my grumbling about the lack of good training material in several private intraforum emails. I believe Tormek AB is missing a very good opportunity to increase sales by leaving so many users lacking confidence. I think it would be a fine addition to this forum to include solid training materials presented in an organized way which would not necessitate the iffy search protocols. I couldnt agree more and thats precisely why I started that thread on help for new users.
My impish side thought we should offer this help in at least two languages. I would call them "fish and chips" and "Big Mac". We are, after all, "two nations divided by a common language". Including local terms together with explanation would add spice to the learning.
I have doubts as to who would take charge of such a project. While we have some enthusiastic helpers, in my opinion, the only person on this forum with the breadth and depth of Tormek knowledge and field experience is Jeff. Such a project might involve a lot more time than administering a forum. To do the project well should involve photos, illustrations, and video. Agreed, but if we follow Herman and Mark's suggestions about the use of a wiki approach....I believe we could collaborate our way towards something useful. Just you, me, Herman, Mike, Justin et al in the last few weeks have established that we could contribute quite a bit of copy. I believe by collaborating we share the burden sufficiently to make progress at a sensible pace. I also agree entirely that its impossible without Jeff. He's just too important on so many levels. But he's doubtless busy and might not be motivated to spend a lot of time doing this kind of stuff. I would like to think that he might have an overseeing role though. Such that if we submitted a 2 pager on chisel sharpening for example, he could pass his eye over it and error check....or better yet, add his own unique experiences. Right now even just the new high level group and some input about if the site supports multiple edit permissions would be great as a starter.
Perhaps a good start would be an article about setting up the Tormek and sharpening a chisel. A second article might be sharpening and maintaining knives.
Because of the nature of the forum, the project could start small and evolve.
Absolutely...Im the last person who wants to be over committed to a hair brained idea...I have two boys under 9 and run my own business....a sensible pace that evolves with no one cracking the whip works for me just fine.
I welcome your thoughts.
Ken
Quote from: RobinW on March 04, 2013, 12:20:39 AM
I think with the technology available these days, any company which does not incorporate training/demonstration videos of their equipment is missing a trick. It not only helps the customer it generates future customers, and also helps the company's own staff understand the product better.
My one comment about any training, and this may sound unusual in the first instance, is show what to do when things don't work or if it's broken. There is no point in showing only the idealistic result ie an expert demonstrating something and it all works perfectly. That's what we all aspire to, but the road to success is somewhat different!
Look at how many times people have listed problems trying to get a straight edge on a chisel using the SE76. There is a good video showing Jeff hacking at a blade and resharpening it and lo it all works. It was a major factor (with the other videos) which convinced me to buy a T7. But like many others, I couldn't manage to reproduce the same result. That's when people post messages doubting their purchase as they don't have rapid success, and if you have too many of that type your reputation will suffer. It took a while, but I can now sharpen my chisels to the standards I desired, and I have my own little ways of correcting deficiencies.
When I was working (control systems for marine and offshore applications) any training I did, particularly onboard ship, I would show the ideal situation eg press the button and the fully automatic system would do the rest. The next step was to move to the stage of what to do when it doesn't work, and go through manual recovery process to shut a system down or make it safe. Then get into the rectification phase. The more this type of recovery type work was done for different scenarios, getting the customer's staff to be hands on and do it, the better their understanding and increased confidence. I also made sure that the manuals incorporated a similar approach.
This is what could be done for chisel sharpening (and other Tormek items). Identify the types of problems experienced with photos/videos and show the tweaks etc of how to get round them. If a picture is worth a thousand words, what is a video with audio worth?
Hi Robin
Great point...I agree entirely.....all manufacturers seem "scared" to tell it how it is...they want their products to seem like a magic bullet cure and thats how the marketing folks tend to position them....in glorious winning settings :-)
I think thats what this knowledgebase idea is all about...I called it the manual/training you always wanted. Its exactly as you describe in your working life....you want to give students the answers to all the bear traps they might encounter. Manufacturers often shy away from that....let them buy now and find the lumps later! Well we've all found the lumps and guess what...we still love the thing. Now lets grow up and recognise that operator error and a few foibles with the jigs , stones etc is the real learning issue...lets get on with giving all the tools people need to get the job done.
I totally agree about the lack of training material. I only got my T-7 last September, and it became apparent very quickly that it takes is a lot of acquired skill, and I quickly wished for advice from experienced users.
This forum in invaluable in that respect, so I am thankful for it's existence. Where else would one turn?
Agreed.
In the software biz, training and self-help are everything. Even so, you may need to end up serving many thousands of tech support requests per month. It is very beneficial to a company and to customers alike to have excellent, well designed training materials as well as users helping users. Happy customers is what it is all about.
Tormek is based in Sweden. So, how to handle training/support in many different languages? You either have to staff up, or provide other avenues to assist your users. I get the idea that Tormek is more geared to producing this fine equipment, than a tech support outfit.
One easy to implement and very effective method is a user forum. A little long in tooth these days, but welcome and effective nonetheless.
Tormek really remind me of Microsoft in the sense that they seem to know their core business is making tin! With Microsoft, its making software. They dont want to know about services....services are for people based businesses....we make tin around here. Companies that want to manufacture and allow other specialists (with local market knowledge) to distribute are fine and dandy. Its a model that has been working well for a long time.
My guess is that the big challenge for all the players in this paricular food chain is that there simply isnt any revenue in the services business. I mean be honest...would you pay for a Tormek training class? Would you spend say $200 to go somewhere when all you really need is a solution to one particularly niggly problem with a jig or your approach. Maybe you'd pay for a training DVD? Well now, there's an interesting proposition...would you pay $25 for a well thought through training DVD. I might...but would I write one though knowing that within 30 seconds of my sunk production cost of several thousand dollars that it would be ripped off and all over youtube?
So its a difficult call for the service businesses I think due to the nature of the digital medium....is there an after market for training DVD's or a paid download per jig...I dont know. Can you protect digital copy from being ripped and bunged onto Youtube....I doubt it? So why would anyone sink the cost?
So..we could.....do a collaborative effort...for ourselves and this community. Not for money, just cos it needs doing and we'd be genuinely helping folks...we'd be putting some good out into the world. Goodness only knows...theres already plenty of bad out there!
Quote from: Ken S on March 03, 2013, 11:18:18 PM
I have only been a member since 2009. At that time, no one had posted the fifty posts in order to qualify as a junior member. Of those actively posting at that time, only Herman and I are still active. The most active posts only had around twenty postings.
Ken, I can't be sure of this but perhaps back in 2009 the forum relocated and my membership started over as I had to register again. Something like that anyway, if I recall. It seems like I've been a member longer than since 2009.
Anyway, I think the Swedes do monitor this forum.
Right now there are a variety of videos on the Tormek website. As well as many others on YouTube.
Perhaps this is enough, but I believe a wiki created cooperatively by the members of this forum would be a good way to experiment with making more information available to more people.
Really??
As far as I was aware they only produce two specific DVD's...one is the original thats shipped with the machine when you buy it and one is Jeff's which is part of the woodturning box set with all the jigs.
I wasnt aware you could purchase any seperate training materials....unless that footage has been further split into jig specific dvd's.
Out of their movie materials, only the stuff Jeff presented is actually really useful when learning what to do. The oroginal Tormek stuff (which is all on youtube incidentally) is basically just a massive Jigfest advertisment....you could in no way call it instructional. The drill jig and stones promo they paid Alan Holtham to do is OK because he's a good presenter too....but for my money...he hasn't earned the right like Jeff has. He's just not put the time and years in like Jeff has...personally I cant fathom why they dont have Jeff plastered all over their marketing...lets face it he's actually the global public face of the company.
Quote from: Rob on March 04, 2013, 10:20:54 AM
As far as I was aware they only produce two specific DVD's...one is the original thats shipped with the machine when you buy it and one is Jeff's which is part of the woodturning box set with all the jigs.
The videos I speak of are not for sale. They're just viewable directly off the web site.
Right you are...theyre the ones that are all already on Youtube....theres nothing new there. Cycles back to the point which is that Tormek arent in the business of doing training.
Tormek also has them posted on their web site with each jig so that's a more convenient arrangement. As we're saying though, there's a lot of room for improvement.
The sad fact of the matter is, gentlemen, that delving into potential problems in an environment that would be viewed by potential customers is never, ever going to be a good idea. In a video, particularly an online video, you have about 3 minutes to get your point across, at the very best. If you start explaining things that might go wrong and what to do about them, attention would be lost. Even worse, those on the fence will fall the wrong way, because none of the other options have any potential downsides (according to their promotional material). It would be nice if potential customers would recognize that the manufacturer is trying to be honest and open, but it just doesn't work that way. I promise you, I'm speaking from first-hand experience.
I see what you mean about the videos. I think the videos should focus on the right way to do things, including warning about the potential wrong ways to not do things.
But in general this forum already serves as an environment that delves into potential problems and has the same potential to be viewed by potential customers as would a wiki.
Quote from: Jeff Farris on March 04, 2013, 08:07:29 PM
The sad fact of the matter is, gentlemen, that delving into potential problems in an environment that would be viewed by potential customers is never, ever going to be a good idea. In a video, particularly an online video, you have about 3 minutes to get your point across, at the very best. If you start explaining things that might go wrong and what to do about them, attention would be lost. Even worse, those on the fence will fall the wrong way, because none of the other options have any potential downsides (according to their promotional material). It would be nice if potential customers would recognize that the manufacturer is trying to be honest and open, but it just doesn't work that way. I promise you, I'm speaking from first-hand experience.
Im not quite sure where you're positioning this comment Jeff? Are you saying that the above means you dont support the idea we've all been banging on about ie have a wiki style top level group on this forum with co-operative edit rights aimed at new users? Or are you just making general comments about good online video direction?
I have to ask because we've been batting this idea around while you were "off air" with computer woes. Dont know if youve read all he threads yet because theres been a ton of traffic while youve been away. I think video has only just entered the fray...our basic premise was to jointly produce short, succinct and optimised "notes" to guide new users in the fundamentals with a Tormek. We see the same set of questions repeated, particularly for new folks...and it seemed to make sense to point them at a document or series of documents that would help them. Printable, one per jig, one for honing, one for grading etc etc. Just cover all the basics. Im not sure where that idea picked up the baggage of airing all the problems....it was pretty straightforward really...summarise helpful content for new folks...but allow it to be done in a collaborative way to share the burden and combine our knowledge and experience. Sort of this forums purpose....but in miniature :-)
I fully support your efforts to consolidate the information on what can go wrong. I was just trying to elaborate on why manufacturer videos (everyone's, not just Tormek) might gloss over potential problems.
Understood...but lets be clear...the goal we were discussing was to consolidate the information on what can go RIGHT primarily ie the best, the optimal path
The primary purpose to consolidate it so its accessible
Jeff, you can sort of see how the conversation grew...
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1534.0
Yeah, I can read on the tablet just fine, I just hate to write on it.
When you guys get off course, you'll hear from me. Until then, full steam ahead.
Ok. Got it. :)
The question of to how to create and manage a consolidated user document presents some obstacles.
An FAQ page would require someone to accept submissions, reviewing, editing and posting and the like, because of author only modification limitations of post permissions.
The reason I mention that thread is because as far as I can see, that is where the idea of a user "wiki" originated, because of both the wiki format, and because of it's collaborative editing ability.
A true wiki of course, requires hosting and IT resources, which, lacking a benevolent benefactor, presents as a considerable challenge.
I moseyed around in the SMF manual. It appears that membergroups and profiles can be configured to allow members with sufficient privileges to edit all posts within specific boards and categories.
I'm sure this is not news to you considering that you hosted the forums on your PC, (wow!), but it dawned on me that this could be used as sort of a poor man's wiki.
This would obviously require even more of your time to set up, and you already do so much!
Is this anything you might be interested in?
Thanks,
Mark
I guess I should add that this is not a configure the forums and... Bob's your uncle!... kind of thing. (Thanks Rob... Now I have to say that all the time! :) For some unknown reason it's addictive). There are all sorts of present and ongoing considerations, e.g., group membership, reviewing and editing, style standards and administration of group/member privileges and on, and on...
It's an interesting idea to toss around though.
Jeff, I heard a journalism prof discussing laptops and tablets recently on NPR. (National Public Radio, for you Brits, similar to BBC)
Anyway, to paraphrase his comment in my native telephonese, he stated that the tablets are quite good at receiving, whereas, the laptop is better at transmitting.....
Ken
Ken,
That's exactly my position. "Creating" on a tablet is nearly impossible. Apple is the only one that can even run a dedicated word processing program that isn't "tied to the cloud". The tablet was my Christmas present to my wife. It's a Kindle Fire HD and she loves it. It saved my bacon the last couple weeks, but I am glad that a software upgrade is all it took to put my old laptop on life support. I know its days are numbered.
I like to chime in here and say that Tormek is also the easiest sharpening solution I've used. And it is a whole lot easier than any manual method. I don't want us scare off the newcomers. The forum is extremely useful but a newcomer can get the system working without it also.
I bought the Tormek to save time and energy. It is all in one place and it is a complete solution. For example, unlike other systems, you don't have to worry about what to do when your flat stone is concave, how to reactivate the surface, how to align the blade. This is assuming you got the diamond grader. Also, for grinding, it is a lot faster than other manual methods and with the water element it is almost guaranteed not to ruin the temper of the steel.
A lot of the other systems are fine but they are not made for hours and hours of grinding or minimal levels of reshaping a blade. They remove metal even slower than a tormek. Also, I like the concept of a big wheel in water.
For everyday utility type sharpening, it works well enough. For example, my chisels are very slightly off square if you use a square gauge on it and look at it microscopically. It does not affect the type of carpentry I do. My kitchen knives are sharp enough for everyday work - they slice through paper well enough for the camera. This is not the ultimate test but it is good enough for me. I want to sharpen them more, but that is just the hobby part of me talking. They are perfectly sharp enough for a commercial kitchen and sharper than any knives in the knife kits of people going to cooking school.
So we are talking about a wiki (or a document) to make it better. The Tormek is good as is and will get you where you want to go quickly after some practice. The wiki is for people seeking perfection. That's great. I want to do it too. But it is not like the system is so complicated that the average person can't get it to work without a wiki.
Quote from: Rhino on March 05, 2013, 04:16:36 PM
So we are talking about a wiki (or a document) to make it better. The Tormek is good as is and will get you where you want to go quickly after some practice. The wiki is for people seeking perfection. That's great. I want to do it too. But it is not like the system is so complicated that the average person can't get it to work without a wiki.
I agree with you, Rhino, that the Tormek is a great all round sharpening tool. With practice you really can get those kitchen knives sharper than new. And this same device can be used to sharpen a crusty old lawnmower blade. No doubt it's versatile and relatively easy to use.
We know from experience here on the forum that some newbies have difficulty getting the hang of it. And many practiced users, myself and others here included, can benefit greatly from those little tips and tricks that we share.
Yes, the Tormek works well enough, but it can also do other thngs that we might never be aware of if not for a forum like this.
Yup. You can certainly open the box and have at it! That's what I did. :) Jeff's videos were very much the reason that I purchased the T-7. So, at least I had some clue.
But soon, I started to have questions. And when I went to find the answers, all I could find was the most basic information. The manual basically, and frustratingly to me, just described the jigs. But I wanted an operators manual, not a catalog of optional accessories.
For me at least, the privilege of having the advice of experienced users is invaluable. I became a better user because of the friendly advice from folks in this forum, and in a much shorter time than by trial and error. It has saved me from stupid things too!
In some ways it's self evident. This forum has thousands of questions and very helpful replies and suggestions from skilled users with years of experience. It's that experience and depth of knowledge that makes the difference! A good example would be if I picked a violin. I could do, well, "things" with it, but I would either quickly be killed, or others would flee.
Take for example all of the recent conversation about the stone grader! Look at all the experience folks have shared about a square chunk of stone.
Quote from: grepper on March 06, 2013, 01:27:34 AM
Yup. You can certainly open the box and have at it! That's what I did. :)
I at least tried to read the manual first, but it had so much information in it I was quickly overwhelmed and just couldn't resist getting the grindstone wet.
Truth be told Herman, I read the manual too. It didn't really help that much.
I found the manual useful...but singly the most useful learning tool by a million miles were Jeff's videos
I believe the best reason to implement this consolidated learning chunks idea is because after you've watched the video, after youve read the manual...its just you and the machine. If you could print a one ot two page document from this forum that had all the salient information and take it right to the machine....it would really help.
Even now - (5 years in) I still reach for something that helps me remember how to load some obscure turning tool that I dont use every day....do I need the open seat or the closed, the torlok toolrest etc etc...so out comes the manual...its just not that great right there. What I need is a focused printable document or a you tube 3 minute job that gives me the answers for that specific jig, that specific job so I can get on with turning and not have to spend an hour researching how to sharpen.
Yeah, it's not really that helpful as a guide, more of a reference manual. I had recorded and then watched the New Yankee Workshop episode so many times I felt I was already familiar with how to use the machine. Plus, there were the videos that came with the machine. This was the pre-YouTube era, and DVD's were so new that a DVD burner was a relatively expensive novelty. VHS tape and 480p resolution was as good as it got.
Agreed, its exactly that...a reference manual with some preocedures in it. Now dont get me wrong, those procedures are good, they work, the diagrams are particularly helpful....but its technical, its dry....you know...its a user manual...what can one say!!
Thats not how adult learning is best facilitated because it takes too long and its simply too boring. We live in the information age and we have tools on our digital doorstep that are literally free of charge. The optimal tool is of course the moving image....youtube. So I think a written guide with friendly language and where necessary ie for tricky procedures...a back up of images or youtube or both would be the fully rounded solution.