After my Dad passed away in 2005 I started setting some of the tools in his garage aside. My Mom kept telling me to pick out what I wanted. I ended up with a box full of old tools, mostly anything I saw that had an edge on it went into my collection. Most of the edges had been damaged and showed evidence of attempts to fix them by grinding at ever more blunt angles. And lots of mushrooming on the end of tools where it was designed to be struck by hammers. Lots of interesting old tools in that box. Every once in a while I'll pull a tool out of the box and try to rehabilitate it.
Yesterday I found an old rusty cleaver. I cleaned it up and sharpened it, but I have no idea what the edge angle should be. I guessed at 40 degrees (20 degree bevel angle on each side), which I figured would be a good sturdy edge.
Does anybody know what edge angle is appropriate for a cleaver?
http://s1291.beta.photobucket.com/user/htrivilino/media/cleaver_zpsf7fbe715.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
That looks a lovely tool Herman, Ive no idea what the angle should be but your logic sounds reasonable. I guess if it were destined to be cutting bone, the punishment it would take might warrant an even broader angle, to try and retain the edge for longer. The max is obviously 90/2 ie 45 deg either side of the bevel but it could be worth trying going closer to the 45 if you intend to use it on animal carcasses?
If its just going to slice flesh, a lower angle would suffice I guess
The next time I cut up a whole chicken it's going to be hard to resist using this bad boy. I'll see how well it chops a chicken bone.
I would guess that Dad and his fishing buddies used this to chop off fish heads. There was only one small nick in the edge and the only signs of wear were the rust and marks from many attempts at sharpening it at a variety of edge angles on a wet stone. I never saw him use it when we butchered deer or the occasional front quarter of a cow. I don't ever remember him using it and it's a mystery as to how it ended up in his garage.
Isnt that funny...when I did the same as you and emptied my Dad's tool draw in the garage, Ive never seen so much cast iron! Old crucibles for heating animal glues, the heaviest gas burner Ive ever seen (with a bathroom tap improvised after the original tap obviously broke), tap and die sets...it was a treasure trove.
But Ive never owned one of those cleavers
Ironically, I made what in England we call a "priest" which is a short wooden club to despatch a trout after youve landed it....that was what was in that photobucket series of size posts :-)
I poked around on Google a little bit. Seems like 30 degrees per edge is pretty average. You whack and HACK with a cleaver, so you want the edge durability of steeper edge.
Just stuff I got from searches. Personally I don't know.
yeh that makes sense.....my guess was following the same thought pattern...wack n hack :-) I like that
A 60 degree edge angle (30 degree bevel angle) is pretty blunt. But that sounds like it would be right for a cleaver. I've needed wood chisels that blunt when used for hammering on hard wood.
There was talk here of manufacturing a universal support with longer legs so it could be set higher above the grindstone for sharpening wide cleavers using the knife jig. I can see how that would be an unstable set up, with the cleaver being prone to being grabbed by the grindstone and flipped under the universal support. That could send the cleaver flying into a precious body part!
Ouch!!
That would definitely ruin your day!
and possibly your wifes too!
If it were that serious I'm afraid the damage would last far longer than a day! :'(
Herman,
Nice tool. I've heard 50º. 25º per side.
Computer issues seem to be resolved!
Thanks Jeff. I'll give that angle a try the next time this cleaver needs sharpening. I don't think it'll take long to get this one dull. It's not the best steel.
Welcome back Jeff! :) Those computers...
Ascii code 248, is that how you got the degree symbol into your post, Jeff?
A bevel angle of 25° on each side of the cleaver gives an edge angle of 50°.
I can't wait to chop up that chicken! 8)
Quote from: Jeff Farris on March 04, 2013, 07:25:07 PM
Herman,
Nice tool. I've heard 50º. 25º per side.
Computer issues seem to be resolved!
On the strength of Kens advice some weeks ago I went ahead and bought Leonard Lee's (of Lee Valley Tools) classic book "The complete guide to sharpening". I just happened to be perusing it while waiting for my kids at their swimming class. It says of cleavers: a 50 degree included angle is about right assuming it will be chopping bone (chicken, ribs etc). If only slicing flesh then a narrower angle is suitable. In other words, any edge thats going to be subjected to a brutal amount of force (resistance) will hold its edge better if the angle is more obtuse. But then we all already knew that Im pretty sure.
Note to Ken...its a great book...thanks for the heads up
On an Apple it is Option-zero.
Rob, glad you like the book. I regard Leonard Lee highly. I think he has written a good book, and the accompanying VHS, now DVD, has both good information and good dry humor. IMHO, everyone on the forum should have copies of both Leonard Lee's book and Ron Hock's book in the personal library.
Jeff, since getting your computer working again, do you have the feeling you are not in Kansas (Missouri) any more. The forum has a plethora of full and senior members, and they are busy posting....suggesting more work for you! It reminds me of Tevya'a line in Fiddler on the Roof, "I know we're the chosen people, but can't you choose someone else once in a while?"
Ken
LOL...what was the phrase from that movie...."build it and they will come"
Well....we're HEEERRRRRRREEEEEEE :-)
Well, to be honest, a core group of active members is what this forum has been trying to launch for years, even back when it was part of my company rather than Tormek. You guys are doing a great job, and taking quite a bit of weight off my shoulders. Several fundamental questions have been addressed correctly, leaving me to do the supervising instead of answering every single post.
Jeff,
This forum reminds me of the sleepy little Ohio towns after fracking was discovered. From time to time I look at the "more statistics". Recently it seems like a tsunami has hit the stats. Like you, I think this is exciting.
I am one of the prime grumblers about the lack of good training materials. The videosvyou have done are quite good, but don't completely quench our thirst for knowledge. I realize we are handicapped by living in an age when when the most complex mysteries are solved within an hour filled with commercial messages. IMHO, the most effective training material should also be the simplest and most easily accessed.
I have found the search engine only partially useful. I think a more effective solution would be having a couple posts made like the welcome posts. I would suggest one for Frequently Asked Questions and another for Less Frequently Asked Questions. Things like grinding squarely, using the stone grader, and lifting the knife handle to form the tip bevel would be under FAQ. Things like thinning the bolster on a knife, or cambering a plane blade might be under LFAQ. (Turning tools, Planer blades and maybe hand tools should have FAQ and LFAQ, also.)
My suggestion would be to address specific issues in regular posts first. Then, the relevant posts would be edited and combined into a clear answer. (A nice touch would be to list the poster's name with the post.)
I would suggest you, as forum administrator, be the one with permission to access, edit, and add to the issues. In addition to being the moderator, you have the respect of the forum as both an honest spokesman and someone who has spent a lot of time in the trenches. With "copy, paste" from good posts, the work involved should be minimum.
By having the FAQ and LFAQ posts appear below the welcome posts, they would be quickly and easily accessed by both members and the curious who are investigating whether or not to invest in a Tormek. If I was looking, I would print them for my reference. I could see them as being of great value in getting new members up to speed with avoiding most of the pot holes.
Welcome to the brave new world........Oz may never be the same.
Ken
Interesting idea Ken. Can I just take one step back and confirm from all concerned what problems we're trying to solve here...then we have criteria against which any solution design can be verified. Dont think its a biggy but I do think its worth doing..as a base.
1) Make helpful information accessible Quickly ie overcome the search problems
2) Make helpful information available in one place ie summarise the dispersed content into useful chunks
3) Make helpful information the best it can be ie edit from multiple sources to distill the best
4) Make the process of building this library an evolution not revolution so no individual is buried
Feel free to add in case Ive missed anything, Im not precious.
If those criteria make sense then how a new user gets to the content once they've landed on the forum home page is absolutely critical....there must be a top level sticky so there is no search required...it should be generic but within it is a subdivision (a contents essentially). But the high level draws the eye of the new user. The sub divisions should of course be useful bite size chunks. Franky, one obvious category for each sub division (chapter) is simply the jig names. Others would be Tormek specific like Ken suggested...grader, wheels, Universal support, honing etc. Maybe like this:
Level 1 - Advice & Guidance for New Tormek Users
Chapter 1 - Tormek Fundamentals
topic 1 - the grinder
topic 2 - Trueing and dressing the stone
topic 3 - Grading the stone from 220 to 1000 grit and back
topic 4 - etc
Chapter 2- The most commonly used jigs and how to use them
topic 1 - the SE-76 Square edge jig
topic 2 - Angle master WM-200
topic 3 - Knife jig SVM-45
Again not precious about any content or layout etc here...just want to reinforce the point that whatever we come up with needs to be get-at-able without any thought on the part of the user. It very definitely doesnt want to be buried anywhere. In so doing we fail to meet fundamental criteria No 1...get at it quickly
Rob
Quote from: Ken S on March 04, 2013, 11:25:55 PM
IMHO, everyone on the forum should have copies of both Leonard Lee's book and Ron Hock's book in the personal library.
After hearing you recommend these books I've decided to bite the bullet and order both of them. I look forward to some good reading.
Herman, I don't believe you will be disappointed. While they both cover sharpening, they are enough different that I believe both are worthy of space in our active libraries.
After you have a chance to read through them, please post your thoughts. It would be nice to hear more thoughts on them than those of that "ken s" guy. (I know as much as he does, and that's not bragging.)
Ken
Wal-Mart has the Complete Guide to Sharpening for $14.79 available to ship to your local store. Not bad.
I'm not advertising, but if this is against the rules, Jeff feel free to pull it.
It's about that same price from amazon.
I received Ron Hock's book The Perfect Edge today via eBay. Checked it to make sure it was in good shape before leaving feedback. As Herman said, it looks like it will be excellent reading material.
My wife said I really needed another book. I imagine you can just about hear the sarcasm in her voice. She said I have about 3 or 4 books that I'm reading now and have a"million" other books to read.
I told her, yes, but the last one that I got was read from stem to stern! That was Steve Bottorff's book Sharpening Made Easy. That is another interesting book dealing mainly with knife sharpening.
Thanks, Ken for your recommendations on the The Perfect Edge and The Complete Guide to Sharpening. The latter is on the computer, but there's nothing quite like a book! :)
Your wife is lucky to have such a literary spouse.......
I'm pleased you guys have found the recommended books useful. While I believe in the value of hands on experience, I do believe we can shorted and deepen the learning experience by well written books, articles and videos.
Ken
I'm about 2/3 of the way through this book, but have gone back to re-read the chapter on the metallurgy of steel. Fascinating stuff.
No mention has been made of "Chinese" cleavers. These are lighter weight cleavers designed primarily for cutting vegetables. I eat very little meat, so my need is for vegetables. My Chinese cleaver does this very well. It does a great job of cutting cabbage. A more acute edge, maybe combined forty degrees, should work well for these knives. Next time I sharpen it, I will try my version of the Ionut/Herman jig. I store it in a plastic edge guard from Lee Valley, as it does not fit inmost wooden knife blocks.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 19, 2013, 03:36:31 AM
Next time I sharpen it, I will try my version of the Ionut/Herman jig.
Please show us some photographs!
Good point, Herman. I need to brush up on my getting pixels to page.
Ken
I recommend photobucket. Very easy to use. Even I could figure it out. ;)
Ken
Recently I posted a heap of threads re photobucket and how to get it to render pics in this forum. That should save you some time
Yes, that was very helpful. Thanks, Rob.
Twas a pleasure