Dear all
It occurred to me as I was reading the threads giving advice to John last night that a useful resource for all new Tormek owners would be some kind of "starter pack" from this forum
I don't mean anything too onerous, just a collection of threads documenting the primary do's and don'ts. New users could be directed to it as a helpful knowledge resource
I appreciate people have the manual etc but let's be honest, user manuals are always a little dry to absorb and the Tormek one is about the best I've ever seen for any tool. As Ken so eloquently puts it.....the closest analogy to the correct approach to all things Tormek is akin to an apprenticeship.
I'm not sure what form this might take or even if this idea is a complete banana. I just thought it might help to be able to point new users at one place....to begin so to speak
Almost inevitably they will start with either plane, chisel or knife so we could have the "ten commandments" for each of those processes. Obviously number one would be watch Jeff's DVDs and read the manual but beyond that, this forum is of such value.....how could we distill, summarise and permanently record these golden nuggets for the benefit of all?
I'm not a big forum user myself apart from this one so don't know the mechanics of how you store and retrieve threads etc
I'm quite prepared to be told I'm talking bollox by the way so feel free to shoot me down
Rob
Incidentally I would also add a "housekeeping" ten commandments which would include:
- how to grade the wheel properly, thoroughly and tests you can do to know you achieved it
- trueing, when, how often, how deep to go etc
- water trough housekeeping
- grinding towards or away from the edge, why, when, what
- honing, how, why, when etc
The danger is we just repeat the forum, the goal is to distill and document the best to avoid the search agony.
It could be "the manual you wished you always had" :-)
What you're talking about is a Wiki.
As I mentioned in another thread, I am impressed with the capabilities of the "software" of this forum.
Yesterday I discovered that it is not necessary to go through an entire thread to catch up with the latest posts on it. Probably most of you were aware of that, but for the computer illiterate like me, that was a welcome find. :)
Discovery #1 By clicking on the page number you want instead of the name of the thread, you go to the top of that page. You still have to search through that page to find where you last read to, but that helps. Of course, Elden, you have to remember which page you were on! :D
Discovery #2 The question popped in my head, I wonder what would happen if the new emblem were clicked? Hey!! That software is smart! It took me to the first post I had not read on that thread. Alright!! That's great! ;D
The search capability is great. Take time to play with it.
I think a tutorial on the software capabilities would be great. There already may be one that I have not found.
I imagine there are other things about the software that I have not found out yet. Maybe I'll have some more of those lightbulb moments! ;)
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on March 01, 2013, 04:55:17 PM
What you're talking about is a Wiki.
Yeah I guess that's about it Herman
I know that intelligence already exists scattered all over the site, this idea would be to concentrate the best, most salient bits into a few well thought out posts. It need only address the stuff new users would really need....to get over the first few hurdles. Again thinking out loud
While an organized, searchable FAQ type of document certainly could be helpful, this site does have a search box.
It's far from the best search algorithm I've seen, but it is somewhat useful. It's scope seems to be limited to the thread that you are searching from. So, if you are in a particular thread, it's result set will be only from that thread. If you search from the top level General Tormek Questions page it seems to return results from all threads in the General Tormek Questions group.
Try clicking on one thread, and then search for: grader curve
Then try the same from the top level General Tormek Questions page.
It also seemingly unpredictably will return zero results if one of the search terms is not found, even if the other is. For example: "grader" returns many results, but "grader zebra" returns a null set. So if you don't find anything, try different search terms.
"grader cup" returns lots of results, but "grader cupping" returns nothing, even though a search for "cupping" by itself does return results.
Strange, huh.
If you think carefully about your search terms, and try a bunch of different searches it's pretty useful, even though it's actually a rather pathetic and homely search algorithm.
And you've hit the nail on the head there. The search is a little too much like hard work so I doubt people will persevere. The wiki idea concentrates the knowledge into the smallest number of pages. Ideally printable. Then you just go to the wiki, quickly find the thread for...say.....chisel sharpening....print and take direct to your Tormek and go to work
When I was learning to sharpen turning tools on the Tormek I uploaded Jeff's instructional DVDs into my ipad and had that in front of the Tormek, literally live at the work bench. If I did work between centres I might just refresh my memory on what shows about roughing gouge sharpening, when I was bowl turning I would skip to the section on the articulated jig. I didn't even have to leave the bench
Now I know not everyone has that kind of technology. I would have been quite happy with a written instruction. I do use the manual at the bench too, but don't ask me why....I just find them dry, hard going....basically dull. I just know the people in this forum could do a much better job of writing that first steps training material because of the value of the real life experience
And the wiki would contain links to those forum threads so it would make it a much more relaxing way to find the information you need, or just want to see.
Please don't get me wrong here folks, I'm in total agreement with the Wiki idea! I think that a Wiki would be absolutely great! One would even think that the Tormek company would have lots of how to use the Tormek info too! Umm.. Tormek???
Anyway, it still might be handy to know that apparently Google spiders the Tormek forums, so you can use Google to search them. Search for "grader" on on Google like this:
grader site:www.tormek.com
For some reason, Google's search algorithm is superior to that of these forums. :)
Great idea Herman. I think the hard part to this would be organising the development of the content. If it were down to one person, it would be too much to ask. But if we all could contribute, it could get done with the power of teamwork, there's nothing like sharing a task to give it some energy and gumption
I have in mind a new main topic from the home page .....so the "chapters" have their own "book" if its possible to share edit rights to a given post that would be really cool because we could all collaborate on the same text. Maybe we could hold it back till we felt it was worth "publishing". I'm not sure of how to manage the minutiae yet. I just like the idea of all this collective experience collaborating on short, succinct, focused documents which capture the right way to use the tool.
The way a wiki works is that you have registered wiki editors. They are free to post or edit others posts. All editing is reversible so if someone edits your article and screws it up you can revert it back.
These practices have a proven track record of producing useful and meaningful content.
If folks are really interested in starting a wiki, it might be interesting to contact Tormek and ask if they would be interested in assisting/hosting the wiki on their domain. After all, it could only benefit them!
There are a bunch of options, including articles on Wikipedia itself, free wiki hosting/creation sites and even the FAQ style "wiki" that would just be big posting on this site with links to other threads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Your_first_article
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/34248/how-to-create-a-wiki-without-any-technical-know-how-using-google-sites/
http://www.clickonf5.org/7599/10-free-opensource-wiki-software-engine/
I'm not sure how other folks feel but personally it seems right and proper that this forum should be the rightful home for this. To me, the value is in the experience of this group coupled with their generosity of spirit. That willingness to share.
Two other points contribute to that view:
- having Jeff's overarching perspective on anything we come up with is of immeasurable value
- all the threads we might point to are already here
I mean, this forum is kind of the home for all things Tormek right? It wouldn't seem right not to be here
What I don't know of course is whether this site is capable of supporting the wiki style functionality Herman describes. But I think Hermans view is right on the money ie the editing approach. A truly collaborative way to develop content where all the distinctions we've made get aggregated and summarised
Maybe Jeff could chime in....is this making any sense Jeff? Is it feasible, sensible. Can the forum software support the idea?
Being realistic, I suspect Tormek would not be interested, or have the IT resources necessary to host a real wiki. I could be wrong, but I'll bet not. I was surprised to see that they have: https://www.facebook.com/TormekSharpeningInnovation (At least I think that's run by Tormek. I didn't spend a lot of time checking it out).
The easiest way, would just be to make a new top level on these forums (General questions, Wood Turning, Wood Carving... Wiki), and have all of the instructional threads there.
Then, have a top sticky in that group that is an organized bunch of links to those articles, like:
Wheel surface problems
link to chipping
link to not flat
...
Some other subject
link...
link...
...
I don't know how/if the forum can support public/group editing permissions. It could be someone would have to be the official updater... Rob??? :) After all it was your idea. :) (I've learned from too many years in an office environment that you have to be careful about promoting good ideas, as you might be "volunteered").
It is rather amazing, that with such a cool product as the Tormek, especially something that actually requires experience to get good at, that this information is not available already.
The best way to proceed would be to first find out if the forum software we're using supports wiki articles.
I believe, and I could be wrong, but I think they are two different beasts. Kind of like email and spreadsheets.
Please Ignore...Sorry. Forum software goofed up and posted duplicate. I see no way to delete the post.
I think you just choose edit/modify and then manually delete the text?
That'll delete the contents of the message (if the software will even let you do that) but it won't remove the message itself. Only a moderator or admin can do that.
Right
But I spose st least you can correct mistakes even if you just leave the actual message
So.....Herman and Mark
I think youre right, a top level group with sticky links sounds perfect. What we need is Jeff to review this and comment. Im with you though, surprised Tormek havent done it before. My guess is that was part of the original remit of this very forum, after all...the information we're referring to is already here, its just scattered in many many posts.
Im happy to have a role in helping but I feel the real value is in joint collaboration where we assign multiple edit permissions and "evolve" the content jointly
Jeff.....are we just talking rubbish or is this possible?
I think a wiki would be a better way to go, but that's just my opinion.
Herman by that are you suggesting we do ths outside this site?
in fact if I get you right do you mean strarting a wiki that resides inside wickipedia?
The wiki would be within the forum. Of course the forum software would have to allow for this option, so we need to find out if it's a possibility.
There would be a link that you click on that would take you to the wiki. So, it wouldn't really make any difference where the wiki lives, you could get there from a link within the forum.
The issue is that for an actual wiki, you will need a "host", i.e., a computer running the wiki software, with dedicated disk space to hold the thing and it's content including image files, video files, etc., plus Internet connectivity with enough bandwidth to handle the traffic.
I don't know how much of a wiki you can set up inside of Wikipedia. That would have to be researched. There are wiki hosting sites, some free, some you have to pay for.
Anyway, a true wiki, as opposed to just using these forums, would require setup, and hosting.
Not necessarily a show stopper, but much more difficult.
Now, if Tormek would just host a wiki for us... :)
so chaps what exactly is the definition of a wiki? Does it describe the collaborative process of building the knowledge content? Hosting it is clearly entirely different from that which it is. Sorry to be slow, these explanations are helpful
I understand the hosting issues in terms of bandwidth etc....ie the hoster has to "play server".
For this reason as well as many others, this site is where it should be in my view
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki_software
Wiki software (also known as a wiki engine or wiki application[citation needed]) is collaborative software that runs a wiki, i.e., a website that allows users to create and collaboratively edit web pages via a web browser. A wiki system is usually a web application that runs on one or more web servers. The content, including all current and previous revisions, is usually stored in either a file system or a database.
Wiki software was invented and first created by programmer Ward Cunningham in 1995. There are currently dozens of actively maintained wiki engines, in a variety of programming languages, including both open source and proprietary applications.
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So, a true wiki is created by running a specific software program. Like an email program allows you to read/send email, or a drawing program specializes in letting you draw stuff, like Microsoft Paint, a wiki program makes a wiki, with a wiki look/feel, allows users to edit pages, manages users, permissions, searching, storage of content and all of the other let's make a wiki be a wiki kind of stuff.
So the term wiki is rather specific, and differs from a much simpler, possibly categorized, FAQ page with links.
We users could easily create a thread with links to other threads or "articles". We do it all of the time. However, without moderator permission, only the author of individual posts could edit the posts he created. Therefore collaborative editing of "articles" (posts) would not be possible unless the forum allows for group based or public editing permissions. Granting of editing permission would up to Jeff.
Does that help?
Quote from: grepper on March 02, 2013, 08:36:15 PM
There would be a link that you click on that would take you to the wiki. So, it wouldn't really make any difference where the wiki lives, you could get there from a link within the forum.
The issue is that for an actual wiki, you will need a "host", i.e., a computer running the wiki software, with dedicated disk space to hold the thing and it's content including image files, video files, etc., plus Internet connectivity with enough bandwidth to handle the traffic.
That's the reason why having the forum software support the wiki is so important. It solves all the problems you mentioned.
If by "having the forum software support the wiki" you mean it would be very cool if Tormek would run/host the wiki software on their computers, then yup! That would be very cool indeed. :)
Quote from: grepper on March 02, 2013, 11:08:44 PM
If by "having the forum software support the wiki" you mean it would be very cool if Tormek would run/host the wiki software on their computers, then yup! That would be very cool indeed. :)
Well, yeah, you have a point. If the forum software supports wikis
and if Tormek would agree to let us use it, then that would be the way to go.
Fabulous explanation guys. Now I totally understand. So unless we plan to go it alone essentially, we need Jeff to inform us if the current forum software is capable of providing collaborative edit permissions. More importantly, Jeff needs to be on board with the idea.
Jeff....are you out there old sport....we could use some of your input on this please
Many thanks
R
So, I read the administrators manual, well, a tiny portion thereof, for the SMF (Simple Machines Forums), which is the forum software that Tormek is running to provide us with these forums. Thanks Tormek for providing us with this!
On the surface, it seems to have a fairly extensive group/board user permission scheme.
Ferreting around in the permission documentation, I found this juicy configuration tidbit:
-------
Posts
Modify posts - Determines whether or not people in this membergroup can modify their own posts, all posts, or no posts at all.
-------
I have not, and do not plan on spending the time necessary to fully comprehend the permission options for this forum. But, on the surface of it, with very little investigation on my part, it looks like it may be possible to set up groups of users with permission to edit all posts within a particular board.
I did not spend the time to understand the boards, groups, permission group and subsets, so I don't know...
But maybe, just maybe, these forums, with the appropriate configuration, allows for groups of users to have, limited to specific boards, collaborative editing privileges. I did not look into exactly what a "board" is. Hopefully it would be the top level categories such as General Questions, Wood Turning, etc. But I don't know. I'm tired of looking at documentation. :)
I suspect that is as close as we will come to having this forum software support "wiki like" collaborative editing, if it is even possible.
Mark
Rob, Yup. That about sums it up. :)
And, it would require Jeff to donate even more of his time and effort to set it up. Oddly, I think that's what it somehow distilled down to. I rather think that we all here probably owe him a huge thanks for what he already does!
I still wonder, if maybe it might be at least worth an email to Tormek to inquire as to if they might get excited about hosting a wiki. After all, they are already hosting these forums. :)
Wow Mark
Outstanding job of research there....BIG thank you.
Just out of curiosity you don't work in software do you?
But the bottom line is clear then....we need Jeff's input to explore any further right? Now either he's on vacation or his computers up the Khyber Pass again!
Jeff....where are you.....speak to us.....oh Jeeeeffff :-)
Rob, Yes. And I don't think that anyone who wasn't would find themselves to be at all motivated to spend any portion of their Friday night scrounging around in permissions documentation. It has the ability make your brain hurt! :)
I guess one thing should be noted here.
All of this stuff about a wiki, and if the forums support wiki kind of stuff, and the idea of Tormek hosting anything, is just bouncing ideas around. I don't mean to imply commitment from anyone to do anything at all or anything like that! Just fun theoretical ideas. :)
And, anything like that would be totally and completely up to Jeff. This is his forum, to which he graciously dedicates his time and wisdom.
For me, it's just fun ideas to kick around.
Mark
Cool Mark....Im sure we all feel the same way.
I was diving through ancient posts of the svh-320 planar jig earlier and if ever there was a case for summarising the collected wisdom its demonstrated in that series of threads.
The jigs brillaint...but tricky due the nature of the process, nothing to do with the Tormek....if that could be boiled down to 2 pages....new users would be considerably helped. Youtube would also be a significant helper. One already exists, but again, it skips over all the really important details that seem to make the difference. Its not bad and the bloke that did it is a good presenter....but....theres so much room for better quality, more distinctions that remove margin for error.
Quote from: Rob on March 03, 2013, 07:51:54 PM
The jigs brillaint...but tricky due the nature of the process, nothing to do with the Tormek....if that could be boiled down to 2 pages....new users would be considerably helped. Youtube would also be a significant helper. One already exists, but again, it skips over all the really important details that seem to make the difference. Its not bad and the bloke that did it is a good presenter....but....theres so much room for better quality, more distinctions that remove margin for error.
That's exactly why a wiki would work so well. Different users could insert their own tips and tricks. Each wiki page also has a discussion page where editors can debate the pros and cons of different techniques.
Im totally in agreement Herman - wiki is the right vehicle for capturing the collaboration and then with joint edit rights, prune any verbosity to make the content succinct.
Plus the act of participating hones the knowledge.
Hey congrats on Senior member Herman...I just noticed your avatar :-)
Same to you, Rob.