I've just read a promotion for chrome vanadium bench chisels and it suddenly occurred to me I have no idea where chrome vanadium is on the hardness and edge retention continuum
I'm guessing that the very fact it's being advertised as a virtue must mean its meant to be hard right?
So does anyone know the detail, is it closer to high speed steel or closer to carbon steel? Also is it what the books call an "exotic alloy"?
Many thanks
Rob
Some stuff off the 'Net:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-vanadium-steel.htm
http://www.integritysteel.com/aisi-6150-medium-carbon-chrome-vanadium-alloy-steel.html
5. Chrome-Vanadium Steel:
It contains C 0.26% , Cr 0.92% and V 0.20%.
Chromium and vanadium are added to low alloy steel to increase its hardenability and to impart a grain structure that is finer than that of the standard chromium low-alloy steels.
It is used for making axles and shafts of automobiles, aeroplanes and locomotives.
Ah many thanks
Sounds like some pretty tough stuff:
http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/6150.asp
Nothing like throwing in a little vanadium.
Chrome-vanadium would be classed as a carbon steel.
How interesting...so in fact the notion of marketing it as something special is complete nonsense then? It's just regular tool steel with a fancy name?
It's a classification. There are different alloys in different types of carbon steel, or tool steel if you want to call it that. It's just that carbon is the most common and prevalent alloy used in most of the steel that we're likely to touch to our Tormek grindstones.
And there are different processes. The history of the steel's temperature and the way it was manipulated also affect its properties and the way it behaves.
Right
It's just that the chisels I saw being advertised were really celebrating the fact of the chrome vanadium, you know like it was a product feature. Which I guess it is. It's just it seems a little run of the mill if its actually carbon steel.
Mind you that's hardly a term you're going to see often in marketing collateral is it?
Come buy our product.....it's really average :-)
Ah, marketing. Include a "special name" on the product that few people understand, and they'll assume it's better.
I can remember seeing mechanic's tools in the 1960's that were marked "Chrome vanadium" and those tools did indeed seem to be very good (at least my Dad thought so, and he "knew"). But then I also remember seeing Buffalo brand sockets in the whatnot aisle of the grocery store in the 1970's with the same markings and those tools wouldn't make good paperweights. So you can make junk out of anything if you try hard enough.
Youre not wrong Mike
That was a good post on the non squareness trap with the se76 by the way. I missed that first time round
Thanks, I hope it helps someone. As I've gone on I've come to depend less and less on the registration edge of the SE76, and just used my square with the whole thing held up to a bright light. It seemed every tool I sharpened had to be adjusted slightly away from the registration edge anyway.
I'm on a tablet, and typing with 2 fingers, so I can't (won't) delve too deep right now.
C-V is a tool steel that has been around for decades (at least). It is pretty much the standard for cutting tools. Like a lot of terms, it's been perverted and misused by casual conversations and marketing-speak. It isn't fair to lump it with all carbon steels, but that is what happens. I do it. For woodworkers, it would be rare to find a tool that wasn't C-V, unless it were HSS or carbide. If you read "carbon steel" in reference to a cutting tool, you can assume it is C-V.
Thanks Jeff. I guess it's only those copywriters in marketing departments that have run out of feature ideas that feel the need to use it today
Chrome and vanadium are awesome sounding words. Putting them together is a temptation that marketers just can't resist.
Hehe....like deceptively spacious is to real estate guys trying to sell a shoebox :-)
Somewhere I have a set of small chrome vanadium drill bits I purchased at K Mart about forty years ago. They were inexpensive and designed for occasional wood use. They were a lower cost option than high speed steel.
This week I purchased a set of Irwin "black anodized" bits. They are supposedly good for "thin" metal. I doubt they are high speed steel. They should suffice for my intended use of predrilling wood and drywall for screws.
Ken
As long as you can keep sharpening them they should perform just fine.
You bought the drill sharpening jig didnt you Ken?
Yes, Rob, I bought the drill jig. I agree, Herman, as long as we keep sharpening them, drill bits, high speed or otherwise, will continue to do their jobs.
I do have and use other bits than the household small ones for screws and anchors.
I bought the drill jig at a woodworking show my local dealer hosted. It was 20% off. I like tormek and I really like bargains. Looking at the price of individual replacement drill bits, it may actually pay for itself over the long haul.
Ken
Like you Ken..I like both bargains and Tormek...the drill jig is very expensive though. I would have to have some serious specialist applications to warrant such a spend.
Actually what I really would find useful is a means of sharpening my forstener bits. They get dulled pretty quick in white oak, theyre expensive and Ive no idea how to sharpen them?? Regular drills are now so cheap I just couldnt justify the cost of the jig. I believe for my use I wont spend that much on drills in my lifetime and Im not exaggerating. I have a set I bought 20 years ago and theyre not razor sharp but they still cut.
Forstener bits....now they need sharpening badly.
Having said all that...its still nice to have ultra sharp tools, regardless of the economic justification so I get why you have it :-)
Quote from: Rob on March 04, 2013, 12:42:25 PM
Actually what I really would find useful is a means of sharpening my forstener bits.
Look around for a local sharpening service, there must be a way to sharpen them.
Quote from: Rob on March 04, 2013, 12:42:25 PM
Like you Ken..I like both bargains and Tormek...the drill jig is very expensive though. I would have to have some serious specialist applications to warrant such a spend.
It's too pricey for me, too. I have a Drill Doctor and it does a good job on all but the smallest bits. And those are the ones that dull the fastest.
a service is possible I guess....but that really rankles when I have the Tormek you know. I know Forstener bits are out of reach though so I guess youre right
You can't get around using a sharpening service for some things. I can use Easy Off oven cleaner to keep the carbide tips on my table saw blade clean, but I can't use the Tormek to sharpen them.
Quite....costs around £25 to have my 80 tooth 10" saw blade sharpened...a new blade costs £40 so thats pretty expensive to sharpen.
I used to work with a trim man (second fix, to you) who would buy a new blade and immediately have it sharpened. He could cut panels, stiles, and rails from veneer plywood and never have to sand anything!
When either my chop or tablesaw blades get sharpened I can see how your man could get results like that. They are a pleasure to use when they're like that. Crisp edges, really lovely
It's a few weeks in they go off the boil, especially building in oak which I use a lot
I need to get some kind of diamond file so I can just dress the carbide tips by hand. It would eek out the time between sharpenings. Can anyone recommend anything?
The glue and resins in veneer plywood does a job on blades, too. It's a constant battle to keep them sharp. You have to have several on hand and rotate them between being used and being sharpened.
There's no file hard enough to sharpen carbide steel. You need a diamond embedded substance, lots of force, and lots of rubbing. I know of no hand tool that can do the job.
For those of you who are considering purchasing Forstner bits: Do yourself a favor and look at the high speed steel bits sold by Lee Valley. They should hold their keen edges for a very long time.
Also, a note to Rob: As I recall, you are a turner. You could turn tapered blocks, similar to replacement socket chisel handles, to mate with the inner taper of your Forstner bits. Use diamond paste. That should restore your Forstner bits to their former glory. (Keep the blocks for future touchups. Store them in a sealer plastic bag to help preserve the diamond paste.)
Ken