I am buying my wife a new set of kitchen cutlery for Christmas. The present is partly for her and partly for me, since I am tired of sharpening our el cheapo knife set on my Tormek. I wondered if the users here have noticed differences in how well certain brands (and lines) of cutlery take an edge and the subsequent durability of the edges. I was specifically looking at the Henckels Pro S line of knives, since they were rated highly by consumer reports and I didn't have any other good resource. (It took less than half an hour for me to get totally lost in marketing hype.)
So, what kind of kitchen knives do Tormek wielding sharpening aficionados like and ultimately buy?
Buy the cheapest ones you can live with! ALL knives need to be sharpened at some time so get the ones that are easiest to sharpen. Soft = inferior steel usually is a hallmark of cheap knives. So what? We are in our own kitchen and doing our own thing. I sa, buy what works that you can get sharp and be satisfied. I do not own any high end knives so this is not an entirely objective review.
I bought $6 Japanese knock off knives years ago and by keeping them sharp, visitors are amazed and praise me for how sharp and 'expensive' they are
I have expensive knives and cheap knives of my own, and over 17 years of demonstrating, I've ground everything from the cheapest to some of the most expensive for prospective buyers. Here are just a couple observations.
Be careful when shopping high-end names. Henckel and Wusthoff both have "ranges". Their cheap lines are no better than no-name hardware store lines. Their top ranges are exceptionally good steel with very comfortable designs, but they are priced at the upper end.
One line that I am very fond of, which does not get the respect it deserves in the consumer field is Forschner. I know a lot of restaurant professionals that use Forschner exclusively, and it can usually be found for much less than other European lines (Forschner is Swiss).
Don't buy a "set" of knives. You need a paring knife, a boning knife, a chef's knife and a bread knife...not much else. The bread knife should be serrated. You'll find those in a set, but there will be 3 or 4 more knives in it as well that will end up unused.
Store knives in a block on the counter, not in a drawer. Never...ever...put a knife in a dishwasher or in a sink full of sudsy water. The dishwasher will ruin the knife, the knife in a sink of water will cause a cut.
I was given a very high-end set of Henckel knives. For sure, they are excellent instruments....worthy of the acclaim they receive. Interestingly, though, I often find myself reaching for one of the several Chicago Cutlery knives I also keep in the same oak storage block. I think it's the comfortable wood handles of the CC knives that I prefer.
Jeff is right about this point.....I tend to use 5 knives for most everything, the others are used sparingly, if at all.
Thanks Jeff, that's just the kind of information I'm looking for. I can make any straight piece of steel sharp, at least for a while, but that doesn't tell the story of a kitchen knife. One of the things that is confusing when you start looking at knives is the amount of information generated by people who know nothing about knives, steel and sharpening. I have friends who have vast "collections" of high end knives on display in their kitchen that are as sharp as bowling balls. Last year at a party I found a friend with a large block and a drawer full of Wusthof knives, because she had been replacing all the dull ones. I am interested in replacing our knives because I have noticed that my bottom of the line Chicago Cutlery knives from 25 years ago don't take and hold their edge as well as some of the better knives I have sharpened for my neighbors.
I'll take a look at the Forschner knives today. The only other knife that my wife regularly uses is a 6-7"santoku knife, however, she is unable to tell me why she uses it, other than habit. I will not be attempting to change her habits, because I know what's good for me.
I have been looking at the Forschner Victorinox knives. They seem to have two main lines. Stamped steel with Fibrox handle and forged steel with POM (plastic over molded) handle. To get a chef's knife, paring knife, bread knife, boning knife and Santoku knife costs about $105 in their stamped steel line and about $323 in their forged steel line. Jeff, do you have a suggestion as to which line to go with? Either would be way under the cost of the Henckels PRO S line at about $457.
I agree with Jeff Farris. I do the chopping for our meals, and use my faithful twenty year old Henckels every day. They were, and probably still are, the top of the line. They are comfortable and a joy to use. I would not buy a set. I use the eight inch chef's knife, the four inch paring knife, a six inch slicing knife and a bread knife. My boning knife is mostly used with tomatoes, as we eat very little meat. The ten inch slicing knife sees very little duty. If your budget is tight, start with just the chef's knife and the paring knife. They will suffice.
My knives have never been near a dishwasher and are carefully stored in a now well worn knife block.
Good knives should end up as part of your estate, and are a pleasure to use. You will use them more often than a Kitchenaid and probably a Cuisinart. put your resources where they will give service every day.
The other side of knives is a good cutting board. I have used an 18 x 24" Boos board for many years. I would not go any smaller unless it is absolutely necessary.
Ken
Ken, Thanks for your insights. Based on how nice our 25 year old set of cheap knives look, I'm certain these knives will end up as part of the estate, barring catastrophe or theft. Budget isn't a big concern on this purchase, however, I want to put my money into quality steel and good craftsmanship while avoiding paying any more than necessary for marketing hype. I don't need the knives to improve my social standing or to decorate the kitchen. Thankfully, my wife isn't label/brand oriented.
I see what you guys mean about the set purchases. They seem to be cleverly designed not to include the knives you need until you buy at least half a dozen unneeded knives.
I am concerned about comfort though. My wife has bad arthritis in her hands, so weight, handle shape and balance of the cutting tools are important. I think your idea of a larger cutting board is also a good one. (Ours is only about 12"x16") It sounds like you have been pretty happy with the Henckel knives.
Being sort of old fashioned, I prefer the rosewood handled Forschners, but the forged blade would be my second choice, if I had to have a plastic handle. The rosewood handles are getting hard to find, since they can't be used in professional kitchens any longer. Here's one site I found that had a good selection of everything, and at first glance, it appears very good prices.
http://www.cutleryandmore.com/forschner_rosewood.htm
Jeff, as much as I like my old Henckels, if I had seen the rosewood handled knives at the time I might be just a passionate about them today. The rosewood handles would have a nice feel and seem more natural. (The prices seem very reasonable, too.) I'm sure the plastic handles are designed for health department restaurant regulations.
I gave my daughter a nice old Sabatier slicing knife with carbon steel and a nice ebony (or ebonized) handle. In hindsight, I wish I had kept it. It just feels hand friendly.
Ron, I can appreciate your concern for your wife's hands. In fact, the main reason I originally purchased my Tormek was because my hands hurt after flattening several chisels. I hope you will research the choice and use of kitchen knives for arthritic hands and post the results. Keeping the knives sharp should also help lessen the strain of using them.
One thing I have notices about using a cutting board is how important having it at the right height is. It can be the difference between feeling good and back pain.
This is an interesting topic.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on November 22, 2012, 12:22:44 PM... I'm sure the plastic handles are designed for health department restaurant regulations.
Ken
Somewhere in the late 90s wooden handled knives were completely outlawed from commercial kitchens. I bought ten 12 inch Forschner chef's knives from a restaurant supplier below cost, since they were dead inventory for him at that point. I thought those would keep me in demonstration knives for the next few years. At the time, I was grinding through low-end Henckels at the rate of 2 or 3 per year. In contrast, I got 2 or 3 full years out of each Forschner.
Granted, my demonstration and sharpening technique improved in that window as well, but that gave me a great appreciation for Forschner knives.
Another line that I like very much, but failed to mention earlier in this thread is Global. Good stuff.
I like German made Wusthof.
Well, I have placed an order for the rosewood Forschners. I bought a chef's knife, bread knife, boning knife, paring knife and santoku knife for $165, delivered. I probably would have purchased the forged knives for myself, but since the forged blades are generally heavier, I thought my wife might be better with a thinner, lighter, stamped steel blade, to reduce strain on her hands.
I'll be interested to hear what you and your wife think about them after the first of the year.
I have a good set of knives and a dishwasher set of knives that are pretty good too. And I have knives in between.
So what is my point? Buying knives are a lot of fun. No need to stick to one philosophy. Do both. Cheaper (but not cheap) and use with the dishwasher. Expensive and hand wash. You can own multiple knives for the same purpose. If you own a Tormek, chances are you are not going to buy one set of knives and never buy again to hand them down to your children. You like knives. You like sharpening. Why stop with one set? Continue to get more and more. Have fun.
Rhino,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am as likely to collect things as the next person. ( I admit to having sixteen templates for my Omnijig, ten more than Porter Cable made for it. That's another story.)
However, for kitchen knives, I prefer to go simple. My wooden knife block holds eight knives. In addition to those, I have a chinese cleaver which I like for vegetables. For my needs, they are sufficient. I used them almost every day in meal preparation. They happen to be Henckel knives, although any good knife would be a good substitute.
I can see the possible benefit of having a couple less expensive knives for camping trips.
My kitchen is small enough that I do not have room for knives beyond those I actually use. I am also not a knife collector. Knife collectors might enjoy having more knives to select from in their kitchens.
I have never run any of my knives through a dishwasher, nor would I. My young grandchildren live with me. The life example I want to leave them is to use tools skillfully and carefully. That includes properly maintaining them.
I enjoy sharpening. My woodshop provides me with plenty of edges to maintain.
Ken
I've been tormekking my run of the mill knives for years....it's fine. However, I recently purchased the expensive Japanese "global" knives and they are scarily sharp out the box which is in itself a rare mark of quality. The steel is without question more durable and holds an edge for about five times as long as a regular knife assuming no chronic abuse.
I tormek these new guys about once a month maybe six weeks and they're quite stunning. One thing I notice is that a steel won't give them the edge I like, only the tormek manages that whereas a steel can bring back my cheaper knives if I can't be bothered to set the Tormek up just for one dulled knife. So for ease and simple the cheapys work but your cost will be time spent sharpening. The better ones last longer between sharpens but you pay handsomely for that privelidge (in my case £200 for five knives)
Like all things in life, quality comes at a price.....it's all about choice
A bit late, but +1 to Forschners. They are one of the best bang for buck knives around.
If you want to step up from them JCK Carbonexts are great knives as well but being semi stainless take a little extra care.
Any steps up from there and i'd worry putting them to the tormek, (no disrepect to the tormek, just greater respect to the knife).
Nicest knives i've used are made by some of the custom makers i've been fortunate to have experience with (Devin Thomas and Will Catcheside are two that spring to mind instantly)
Quote from: tb444 on January 03, 2013, 12:20:07 AM
Any steps up from there and i'd worry putting them to the tormek, (no disrepect to the tormek, just greater respect to the knife).
Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?
Quote from: justin on January 03, 2013, 09:37:10 AM
Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?
The Tormek is going to remove metal faster. If you remove too much metal off the wrong surface you could ruin a tool. If you have experience and know what you're doing the Tormek will do it faster and better than hand grinding.
For example, I wouldn't try to sharpen a pair of expensive hair dresser's scissors. With the Tormek or by any method. I just don't have the expertise to do that with a pair of $200 scissors.
If I had a custom made $1000 knife I would be very careful about sharpening it. I have enough experience that I would feel comfortable sharpening it on a Tormek, but I would be
very careful.
I wouldn't trust a newbie to do it, though.
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on January 04, 2013, 07:54:23 PM
Quote from: justin on January 03, 2013, 09:37:10 AM
Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?
The Tormek is going to remove metal faster. If you remove too much metal off the wrong surface you could ruin a tool. If you have experience and know what you're doing the Tormek will do it faster and better than hand grinding.
For example, I wouldn't try to sharpen a pair of expensive hair dresser's scissors. With the Tormek or by any method. I just don't have the expertise to do that with a pair of $200 scissors.
If I had a custom made $1000 knife I would be very careful about sharpening it. I have enough experience that I would feel comfortable sharpening it on a Tormek, but I would be very careful.
I wouldn't trust a newbie to do it, though.
Funny you should mention sharpening salon scissors. Doing just that is the main thrust of my business. You're absolutely correct....the Tormek is woefully inadequate for that job. I rely on only one instrument for that critical job. It is designed and manufactured by the Rapid Edge Co. It is sold, along with and including a mandatory factory training program, for the princely sum of $20,000. Sharpening scissors costing in excess of $1,000 is not uncommon....my personal record is a pair that cost about $3,500. I've attended a number of industry shows where vendors will claim their equipment can equal the effectiveness of the Rapid Edge system for a lot less money. I'm yet to see any that make me believe that. In fact, individuals using the equipment I use, usually sweep the major competitions for such sharpening. Interestingly, my Rapid Edge machine is not suitable, at all, for sharpening knives. For that, I rely on my trusty Tormek. I'm not as good as I want to be with the knives, but I'm working hard to get there.
Quote from: Byoomholay on December 18, 2012, 06:21:58 PM
I've been tormekking my run of the mill knives for years....it's fine. However, I recently purchased the expensive Japanese "global" knives and they are scarily sharp out the box which is in itself a rare mark of quality. The steel is without question more durable and holds an edge for about five times as long as a regular knife assuming no chronic abuse.
I tormek these new guys about once a month maybe six weeks and they're quite stunning. One thing I notice is that a steel won't give them the edge I like, only the tormek manages that whereas a steel can bring back my cheaper knives if I can't be bothered to set the Tormek up just for one dulled knife. So for ease and simple the cheapys work but your cost will be time spent sharpening. The better ones last longer between sharpens but you pay handsomely for that privelidge (in my case £200 for five knives)
Like all things in life, quality comes at a price.....it's all about choice
Interesting point. I've never owned any Japanese knives. Japanese chisels, also legendary, are supposed to only be sharpened on using waterstones. The use of laminated steel is a different process from contemporary western toolmaking.
Herman makes some good points. With the exception of the moderator, Jeff, Herman is probably the most experienced regular poster on the forum. I would guess the vast majority of the knives of the forum members fall into the "ordinary" category, which would more garden variety to knives like Henckels. In experienced hands, the Tormek knife jig seems very adequate for ordinary work.
Tying in Black Mamba's post, I also believe the scissors jig is very adequate for ordinary work. While every household has scissors, very few have expensive salon scissors. Sharpening these to professional standards is asking a lot from a jig costing less than a hundred dollars, just as sharpening a custom knife may be above and beyond the call of duty for a thirty eight dollar knife jig.
Rapid Edge is wise enough to require their training program in the cost of the equipment. In fairness to the Tormek, for twenty thousand dollars, the Tormek product would be much improved, also.
I believe the Tormek and its accessories are a fair exchange of value for cost. With some practice, the drill bit jig does a very nice job with a lot of versatility. It allows an amateur with very little (or no) machine shop experience to produce workmanlike results. Even at a small fraction of the cost of the drill bit jig, the knife jig allows a beginner the opportunity to do very good basic knife sharpening with only a small learning curve. I think that is remarkable.
Where I believe Tormek falls short is in the field of training. There is more to knife sharpening that just making a keen edge. Even with my home use only for eight knives, I had to reestablish the curve on my paring knife. This also involved grinding down the bolster a bit. Until I corrected the hollow spot, the knife would not cut correctly. This is by no means advanced sharpening. Ron Hock covers it well in his sharpening book. I am unaware of any mention of it in the Tormek materials.
Ken
In his post above, I believe Ken correctly gives the Tormek its just praise for being a very capable machine covering a wide range of applications. In fact, I'm sure I'll never personally exploit the machine to its fullest potential.
I routinely use the Tormek to sharpen household scissors. It does a very credible job. The criteria there, though, is no where close to the demands of working with professional salon scissors. It's simply a case of utilizing the best machine, and associated techniques, available for a given job. The Rapid Edge machine, and system, has its role. The Tormek, likewise, is important to my business.
I started offering the knife sharpening service because I was constantly being prodded to do so. I believe, with proper dedication, I'll be able to perform well in that arena. At this juncture, however, I'm inclined to limit myself to about 90 percent of the work I'm offered. Exotic knives...both in design and materials...are something I'm currently passing on. In fact, I may never pursue that segment of the market. The economics of the deal tend to dictate my position.
The financial return in messing with knives doesn't begin to approach that which I realize in my scissor business. For that reason alone, the knife issue will always be a secondary endeavor for me. Without the Tormek, though, I wouldn't be into sharpening knives at all.
Tom
I don't think comparing Tormek with X brands can really be discussed in regards to salon (convex) scissors, due to Tormek not making such a jig.
I think the 20k price tag associated with Rapid Edge is bonkers. I also think the price tags on Truhone and the Catra equipment is too high. I say this in light of the fact that there are many people that would say the equipment and training would be worthless if you really cared about the finished edge on the top quality scissors. Also 20k vs the relatively low cost of proper water stones which many would also claim to be the only proper way to sharpen these tools.
Having said that there is always the balance between speed, quality and ease. I mean alot these industrial/professional machines are designed to turn out good (enough) edges, fast. Do they provide the best edge or the best solution to a given problem. The Tormek seems to come somewhere in the middle.
Apologies for going way off topic..
Quote from: justin on January 06, 2013, 07:31:43 PM
I don't think comparing Tormek with X brands can really be discussed in regards to salon (convex) scissors, due to Tormek not making such a jig.
I think the 20k price tag associated with Rapid Edge is bonkers. I also think the price tags on Truhone and the Catra equipment is too high. I say this in light of the fact that there are many people that would say the equipment and training would be worthless if you really cared about the finished edge on the top quality scissors. Also 20k vs the relatively low cost of proper water stones which many would also claim to be the only proper way to sharpen these tools.
Having said that there is always the balance between speed, quality and ease. I mean alot these industrial/professional machines are designed to turn out good (enough) edges, fast. Do they provide the best edge or the best solution to a given problem. The Tormek seems to come somewhere in the middle.
Apologies for going way off topic..
Relative to the quote above by Justin.....
I don't have a problem with you going off topic, as you say. Personally, though, I don't think you have a clue about the sharpening of salon scissors. I've been in this specialized industry for a number of years and I've never heard such misinformed crap coming from anyone before.
Tom
Quote from: Black Mamba on January 06, 2013, 08:35:13 PM
Relative to the quote above by Justin.....
I've never heard such misinformed crap coming from anyone before.
I apologise for angering you, but instead of saying that, why don't you educate me? I'm not sure what i said that was so wrong but Salon-scissor sharpening appears to be a real area of contention, with tons of hype and conflicting information. All to common in industries reliant on the satisfaction of peoples ego's and vanity.
Most sharpening related info/vids i see online seem to be a guy running tools over belt/dry wheel bench sanders with sparks all over the place, so i'm quite confident there are alot of people, not only misinformed themselves but also actively misinforming others.
Out of interest, what is the ABSOLUTE best method of sharpening these super expensive scissors, time/money not restricting?
I was talking to the OP about going off topic, but anyway...
Justin....
In all fairness to you, it is very easy to fall prey to misinformation relative to all aspects of sharpening....including, but not limited to, salon scissors. When I elected to enter the industry I'm a part of, I expended a great deal of time and effort going through all the chaff and BS that exists out there. I took a hard look at each and every program and process available. I was truly on a mission to give myself the very best chance of being successful.
After exhaustive research, it became apparent to me that incorporating some element of machinery was the only way to go....and not just for the speed of operation, but to ensure the prospect of repeatability, which is paramount to success. Having come to these conclusions, isolating the best equipment available became chore #1.
I looked at them all. Talked to folks who were using them. Exposed myself to every option I could. I ultimately elected to go with the Rapid Edge equipment and system. Let me say loud and clear....I didn't spend that $20,000 lightly. But their machine is clearly superior to ANY other piece of equipment out there...for a multitude of reasons. Equally important, Rapid Edge insists that their buyers attend a stringent one-on-one training period with the designer and builder of the machine. I was somewhat dismayed that some other companies wanted to sell me their machine and were graciously willing to send me a DVD so I'd know how to operate it. Couldn't believe that.
Whats the absolute best way to correctly sharpen salon scissors? I'll let the record speak for itself. There are a number of competitions held, regionally and nationally, to determine just that. While speed and other considerations are judged, it's the quality of the blade sharpening that determines who wins these affairs. Almost invariably, a practitioner using the Rapid Edge machine and system comes out on top....and in many cases they sweep all 4 top spots.
I appreciate that you have an open mind relative to all this. I hope that my experiences have shed some light on this issue for you. Is my way the only way? Certainly not. But, believe me, I stay right on top of my industry and if I ever found a better way to do things, I'd be all over it.
Good luck,
Tom
Well stated, Tom. Your informative post is appreciated.
One of the joys of this kind of forum is that we come from many different backgrounds and skill sets. One of my regrets with this forum is that some of the real veteran users, like Ionut, are no longer posting. I don't believe Ionut ever sharpened salon scissors, but he is passionate about woodwork, and really pushed the limits of the Tormek for woodworking tools. He is very innovative and I miss his posts.
Your salon sharpening experience widens our horizons. That's how we grow.
Keep posting, all of you.
Ken
Thanks for that Tom!
I'm curious to know, there are other machines that appear to work on a very similar jig/grinding principle. So, is it the 101 training that really sets this system apart, or just a good machine with good back-up?
I'm continually on the prowl for any device, process, etc., etc., that will enhance my effectiveness at my trade. I have no loyalty to any company, product, or individual that would prohibit me from incorporating changes to my system and hardware if I determined such changes to be beneficial.
I have yet to find any machine on the market that approaches the excellence in design, construction, and performance of the one that I use. Therefore, I still consider it to be the superior choice for my business.
The finest equipment in the world is darn near useless if you don't know what to do with it. I applaud Rapid Edge for their stance: Buy here - Train here. Incidentally, the guy who trains you is the same guy who designed the equipment and who spent years in the field as a practicing sharpener himself. I've never met anyone else who has the breadth of knowledge that he has.
I hope, Justin, that I've answered your questions. The equation is simple.....Best equipment, best training, best support = best chance to succeed.
Tom
Indeed you did answer my queries. What i am most impressed by is the your pursuit of excellence!!
Back to the original question: Ron, how have the Forschner knives worked for your wife?
By the way, one of the things which sold me on the Tormek was an article in Fine Woodworking several years ago featuring several tools which were kinder on the hands. While reading the article I had fresh (painful for my hands) memories of flattening the backs of several chisels for a dovetail class. I have since learned some better ways to flatten chisel backs, however, the Tormek certainly makes life easier on the hands and done away with the "overheating tool blues".
I hope you and your wife are enjoying your new knives.
Ken
I have been waiting to reply until she had a chance to work the knives into her daily routine. Since these knives weren't as expensive as the one's I was initially looking at, I also bought her a maple end-grain cutting block.
Her first comment was about how pretty the rosewood handles were. The second thing she commented about was how good they felt in her hand just holding them. We had quite a crowd over on New Years, and after she prepared that meal, she said that her hand didn't hurt as much as usual after cutting a lot of food. I haven't sharpened the knives yet, so I can't comment on that, but the factory edges were quite good and they have maintained their edges well. The cutting board is also key. The thickness of it raises the working surface to a better height for her.
I think I scored more "husband points" with this gift, than with my last 5 Christmas gifts combined.
I certainly appreciate the advice I received here. Without it, I would have spent a lot more than necessary and ended up with knives that didn't work as well for my wife's personal situation.
Well done, Ron.
You and your wife have discovered the joy of well designed tools.
I love wooden cutting boards. Having the board the right height makes an incredible difference in comfort. It's worth taking the time to get the height right.
I happen to do most of the chopping in our kitchen. I have noticed that my knives left the factory with sharp edges on the back side (precisely square, with sharp and uncomfortable corners). If you or your wife tend to cut with a hand on top of the blade rather than on the handle (as I do), you might find your knives can be more comfortable by removing the sharp square edge along the back of the knife. This could be done with the Tormek or with a diamond paddle. These were suggested by another poster on this forum, and work well. (Diamond paddles are not expensive; around twenty some dollars for a set of three.) They are useful for many things.
My wife and I find it enjoyable to cook together. I do most of the chopping and she does the stove work.
I hope you and your wife have many happy years enjoying the new knives, and good eating, too.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on January 10, 2013, 01:53:23 AM
I love wooden cutting boards. Having the board the right height makes an incredible difference in comfort. It's worth taking the time to get the height right.
Ah, chopping boards....at the (considerable) risk of meandering off topic again, I absolutely love wooden chopping boards too :-). In fact, my father was a teacher many years ago and he once "recycled" a science bench from a school and made our family kitchen table from which we scoffed meals for a good 20 years. That world has now given way to my own family and I took the liberty of recycling Dads table (respectfully disposing of the yellow Formica covering!!!) into the biggest bread board you've ever seen. It is a custom fit on my breakfast bar, perfectly nestling between hob top and the end of the bar. I now have a 3'x2' veritable chopping "airstrip" of sumptuous beech which has a family provenance dating back nearly 40 years. There's chopping boards and CHOPPING boards :-)
I'll shut up now
Quote from: Justin on January 03, 2013, 09:37:10 AM
Quote from: tb444 on January 03, 2013, 12:20:07 AM
Any steps up from there and i'd worry putting them to the tormek, (no disrepect to the tormek, just greater respect to the knife).
Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?
When sharpening higher end knives, as well as maintaining the edge geometry, there is also the overall blade geometry to maintain by thinning behind the edge. doing this on a tormek would be precarious on a tormek due to the very low angles involved and the desire to maintain a convex geometry to the blade.
The speed that the tormek will abrade a very thin edge makes any errors quickly magnified, and also will remove steel at a rate more suited to putting a fresh edge on than regular touch ups. If you have a knife that cost a lot of money due to the steel, heat treat, grind geometry, you'll want to keep it sharp through regular maintenance, without reducing it's lifespan through excessive wear.
The ability to match the edge geometry the whole length of the blade, whilst being constrained by a jig is likely to result in uneven wear, resulting in subtle, but if compounded noticable changes in the knife profile. i would agree to an extent that practice will reduce this, but i have seen a lot of funky tips and flattened transitions from tormek grinding.
you'll end up with a subtle concave grind that doesn't do much to contribute to edge stability at angles of around 10 degree per side, which is part of the advantage of higher grade knives because they will support extreme geometries.
There is also the concept of asymetric grinds on edges, that would necessitate resetting the knife in the tormek, adding to the set up time. The speed of freehanding with splash and go benchstones also rivals that of the tormek if you only have 1 or 2 to do, as by the time i've set it up, saturated the stone and jigged the blade i could have pretty much finished a knife. but that is an aside.
When Herman commented that a well done Tormek edge will be better than a hand ground edge i would strongly dispute this. I've spen a lot of time with the tormek trying to get similar edges to those i can get freehand, and done some quite exhaustive cutting tests. I do want the best functioning edge on my knives, if i've spent $1000 for a knife i want to get that every bit of performance out of it, and freehand edges win every time. The difference is less apparent at the lower end of cutlery, but once you get into beter blade steels with top notch heat treats it does make a difference.
To the poster who commented on Global knives not being sharpened by a knife steel that's due to the hardness of the steel. Your global knife will be at 58 Rockwell C, which will be very close to that of your steel and so there is no noticable abrasion if it is a cut steel. If you have a smooth steel this works by realigning a folded edge, but the global edge wont tend to fold at the standard geometries (and will quickly fracture if you attempt to realign it with a steel). So is mostly a waste of time. That is why Global sell ceramic and diamond steels, as these are abrasive and act to remove steel from the edge.
Whilst global knives are better than a lot of the junk out there, the steel in them is still very run of the mill and soft in comparison to higher end knives.
Quote from: tb444 on January 18, 2013, 07:31:02 PM
When Herman commented that a well done Tormek edge will be better than a hand ground edge i would strongly dispute this. I've spen a lot of time with the tormek trying to get similar edges to those i can get freehand, and done some quite exhaustive cutting tests. I do want the best functioning edge on my knives, if i've spent $1000 for a knife i want to get that every bit of performance out of it, and freehand edges win every time. The difference is less apparent at the lower end of cutlery, but once you get into beter blade steels with top notch heat treats it does make a difference.
My experience is with far less expensive knives than yours, and also with far less sophisticated sharpening. The knives I've seen that have been hand sharpened for many years have taken a beating, and the only way I know to fix them is with my Tormek. I have to confess that I've never had the patience to become accomplished at hand sharpening, and so my results have been lousy. I did know a wood carver at one time who could put a superb edge on a knife using just a stone and a leather belt. He spent many hours perfecting his craft.
I agree with you about the knives that require thinning. Too much sharpening on a Tormek, particularly by a newbie who tends to get carried away, will require them to be thinned too often. I tend to buy knives now that, due to their geometry, never need thinning. That is, the sides of the knife blade are planar across their entire surface, except for the grinding edge.
I do the same when I buy new tools, too. I always think about how I'll be able to sharpen them on my Tormek, and this often affects the style and brand of tool that I buy. For example, I buy lawn mowers with blades that have simple geometries.
We have a lot of craftsmen on this forum who are accomplished with the use and care of knives. Let's not forget that knife-sharpening is only part of what the Tormek was designed to do. To me it's primarily a device for keeping tools sharp.
I suppose that the simplest way to explain it is this. Since acquiring my Tormek almost ten years ago the tools in my garage, the knives in my kitchen, and the scissors throughout the household are a lot sharper than they were before. I never really used to use planes and chisels properly before I had my Tormek because whenever I did use them they were dull. The only time I used a sharp chisel was when it was new. Now when I buy a new chisel it's the dullest tool I own. I flatten its back and sharpen and polish the bevel before I ever use it.
Lets just get a little perspective here. All my little ironic/sarcastic/satirical/lampooning comment (however one chooses to define it) was aiming to do was bring a little much needed levity to a topic that IMO folks are at risk of over analysing.
I'm with Jeff and Herman on this....the fact is the Tormek works to a standard the vast majority of people are not just satisfied but absolutely delighted with. After a while, the somewhat dogmatic arguments to the contrary suggest the poster may have a different agenda ( like they work for a competitor).
To reiterate Jeff's experience, he's sharpened thousands of people's knives at exhibitions etc where their agenda was to deliberately trip him up....and they were converts to the Tormek. It works. End of.
Guys, let's keep it civil. I've deleted a few posts, hopefully without actually removing anyone's opinion, but getting rid of some of the unnecessary bickering. I don't want to delete this thread, as it has some good information in it.
I haven't sharpened a lot of thousand dollar knives, I will admit. I have sharpened thousands of hundred dollar knives, and with every conceivable method available to me, I would continue to choose the Tormek.
tb444, sounds like you need to become better acquainted with your stone grader or get an SJ-250 Japanese waterstone. If you (or those you've observed) are removing material at that fast a pace, the stone is not graded properly. If you give the SJ-250 a try, I think you'll find the speed well worthwhile compared to water splashed bench stones, whether jigged or freehand.
Ron, I had a thought for you I have been holding back until you and your wife have some experience with your new knives. I'm certainly no trained chef, however, I find myself using my chef's knife most of the time. I like the weight of the knife. I think the heft of the knife makes many cutting operations easier. My thought would be to consider purchasing just an extra forged chef's knife. You and your wife might like the extra weight or you might not. Worst case scenario is you end up with two chef's knives, which might be useful when cooking a large meal.
I second Jeff's wise thought requesting you post after using your knives for a while with your thoughts.
Ken
For what it's worth, I offered to sharpen a friend's old Henckel chef's knife one Saturday. Admittedly, it had been run through the dishwasher for years prior. After an hour and a half on the Tormek it still wasn't worth a d@mn. Most confounded sharpening session ever.
Finally, I got it to where you could shave paper with it - i.e. where you can shave fine stands off the edge of a sheet of paper. (That is my standard)
While demoing the sharpness to him it shaved a few strands, then the paper started ripping. It had actually dulled in front of our eyes! He took it and threw it right in the trash.
I am not saying the Henckel is bad quality or anything, but when they say to keep the knife out of the dishwasher, they mean it! I have a set of Wustof knifes I'd consider similar quality 10 years older than his that still perform like new after sharpening. But they have never been in the dishwasher :D
Anyone with experience with the Sabatier high carbon knives? The rusting kind. My mom used high carbon knives when I grew up and they were easy to sharpen - we had a cheapo 2 sided stone from the store. Everybody gave it a few rubs if they think the knife was dull, and it worked. I am thinking of going back to them.
Does anyone have a brand to recommend?
On the other hand, I used my Gransfor axe on lobsters and I saw it rust before my eyes. I cut up the lobsters, washed, and recoated the axe with oil. It took all of 15 minutes or less. The axe has discoloration already. So this experience is holding me back.
Victorinox has been recommended before on this forum.
I have one. It's a few months old and I haven't had a chance to sharpen it yet. It's a very nice knife and the price is right.
In addition to keeping them out of the dishwasher, the other tip I've seen here is to not buy a set. You get too many knives that way, more than you need. I need only three knives in my kitchen: small (paring), medium, and large. On occasion a boning knife is also needed.
Couldn't agree more with Herman on all counts. I also tend to use the same three knives and of those by far the most used is the chefs knife.
I have a set of global knives and I only use the three he mentions, the others just sit there laughing at me! I always wash and dry by hand, usually directly after use if I remember
I now use a hand steel on them every single time they come out of the knife block. About 5 strokes per side. This maintenance regimen works absolute wonders
I've only Tormek'd them once. Then I discovered the regular steel method and I've not looked back
The steel only works on already sharp knives. I guess that Japanese steel is very hard and if they even dull a little, it can't get the edge back. But keep it up regularly and its brilliant
I see that Ron, the original poster, has not been active since January. Hopefully we helped him with his question and he and his wife are happily using their new knives.
Too bad he isn't still posting. this reminds me of the people who are looking for a home on the TV programs. They look at three houses and decide. Usually the production people return after a short while to see how the people are doing. What they don't do is return a year or two later to get a more in depth picture. (or to see if the people are still actually living in the house)
This forum would benefit from more feedback after a longer period of use. We should all make post it notes to our selves: After sharpening 50 or 100 drill bits with the new DBS-22, post thoughts about it. Or, after several months of using the rotating base, post thoughts.
For those of us who are NPR Car Talk fans, we need more "Stump the Chumps" kind of posts. How did the advice work out?
Rob started a very good post recently on his frustrations sharpening his planer blades. He wrote in depth and had a very good reply from Jeff. I hope you will follow through, Rob, with your thoughts on the SB wheel.
Another poster had a broken drive wheel. Excellent post. That's something which may happen to any of us. I hope he will do a follow up describing the service he received with the replacement, the procedure, and how it works now.
Let's not forget the follow through.
Ken
I haven't forgotten that thread Ken. And I will report back after the first sharpening using the blackstone. Only reason not yet done is planar knives are still ok after last sharpening
I've even imported from Canada, the Oneway Multijig for accurate height setting of planar knives (its brilliant). So I'm all set to go, soon as they're dull again ill go back through the cycle and report here
Thank you for the advice. I placed an order for a 6 inch carbon chef's knife. It has been many years, decades, since I used a non stainless blade in the kitchen. I'll use it in the kitchen/lunch room where I work. If I like it I'll get more. Thanks.
Quote from: Jeff Farris on January 19, 2013, 04:17:07 PM
Guys, let's keep it civil. I've deleted a few posts, hopefully without actually removing anyone's opinion, but getting rid of some of the unnecessary bickering. I don't want to delete this thread, as it has some good information in it.
I haven't sharpened a lot of thousand dollar knives, I will admit. I have sharpened thousands of hundred dollar knives, and with every conceivable method available to me, I would continue to choose the Tormek.
tb444, sounds like you need to become better acquainted with your stone grader or get an SJ-250 Japanese waterstone. If you (or those you've observed) are removing material at that fast a pace, the stone is not graded properly. If you give the SJ-250 a try, I think you'll find the speed well worthwhile compared to water splashed bench stones, whether jigged or freehand.
I have the sj250 lol, i do feel i gave the tormek a good run, but this is where obsession with the geting the best out of my knives comes out, and i will admit to it :D
The speed of cut with the 4k stone is IMO rapid and this is no bad thing, a slow cutting stone is frustrating and is why i stopped using oilstones a long time ago. When i am block planing endgrain or abrasive woods i will mark the jig position on the blade with a Sharpie and then leave the 4k set up for really quick and frequent touch ups. With a 25 degree primary the 4k will keep going with a 30 degree secondary for quite a while before i need to redo the primary on the coarser stone. If it cut slower i'd just use the strop or a benchstone progression.
This is no criticism of the tormek, i'm a big fan and will recommend it to people looking to be able to put fast repeatable sharp edges on knives and tools. But i see a knife as being affected by more than just the edge bevel but the geometry behind the edge as well, and being able to maintain or modify this is something that i dont feel able to do on the wheel.
Saying all this i was at a camp out last weekend and must have sharpened about 30 knives for people that were all blunt to start off with and being able to reset the edges quickly on the tormek would have been a big timesaver. I would have then been able to spend more time on the geometry instead of grinding away trying to get an edge back first.
Quote from: tb444 on May 29, 2013, 11:09:50 PM
Saying all this i was at a camp out last weekend and must have sharpened about 30 knives for people that were all blunt to start off with and being able to reset the edges quickly on the tormek would have been a big timesaver. I would have then been able to spend more time on the geometry instead of grinding away trying to get an edge back first.
Once you get the edge back, what do you then do? I don't understand what you do when you spend time on the geometry.