I have the Super Grind 2000, purchased around 8+ years ago and it has been wonderful machine.
Went to use it the other day and noticed a tick, tick, tick sound as I was sharpening a knife. Stopped machine and inspected the grinding wheel and found a crack right across the face of the wheel. Now, I don't use the machine all that frequently but I do know that the last time I used it it was fine. Upon further inspection I found a severely rusted shaft (I have the old nickle plated one), so rusted in fact that it appears to be frozen to the wheel. The crack runs right down to the shaft. I can not account for any reason as to why the stone would have cracked other than the build up of rust on the shaft.
Does this sound feasible? Anyone else ever have this happen?
I see that Tormek offers an "upgraded shaft", a stainless steel shaft.
So now I'm looking at $300 worth of parts to bring my machine back to working condition, kind of puts a lump in my throat.
That puts a lump in mine as well. It is hard to believe that the rust built up between the shaft and stone to such an extent that it cracked the wheel. Yet, what else is beyond me also. That means that I need to go out and lube the shafts on my machines.
Is there any reason not to put a thin film of grease on the "wet end" of the non-stainless shafts? It seems that would nearly eliminate the worries about rust.
To prevent the build up of rust you have to empty the water trough after every use. The grindstone wicks up the water and keeps the mainshaft wet.
What size is your broken grindstone?
I had a very similar experience. You can read about it here: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=929.0
Thanks for all the responses. After posting this morning I headed back out to the workshop to see if I could determine the cause for sure. I took pictures of the whole demolition process and if anyone is interested I'll post them. By the way, I have the 10 inch (250) wheel. I was unable to remove the nut from the shaft on the grinding wheel so I took the honing wheel off and was able to pull the stone and shaft out in one piece. When I examined the wheel I found two more hairline cracks radiating out from the center of the stone but had not reached the outer edge. I tried in vain to remove the wheel from the shaft, even after the stone broke into three pieces there was still stone stuck to the shaft. One poster used the term "melded" which is the best description of the problem. It took a hammer and chisel to get down to the shaft which of course was heavily corroded.
So, what caused the shaft to corrode and meld itself to the stone? Water! I usually never emptied the water trough, nor did I ever lubricate the bearings. The maintenance section in the manual talks about leaving water in the trough and says the only potential problem it will cause is uneven wearing of the stone. It further states that the bearings need no lubrication unless you hear noise and should last 1000 hours. Actually my bearings look ok. Bottom line, no warning at all about the checking for corrosion of the shaft.
I would highly recommend that anyone who has an older machine to remove the wheel and check for corrosion. If you are unsure which shaft you have take a magnet and touch it to the shaft, if it sticks you could have a problem, if it doesn't you're good to go with stainless.
One last thing, if anyone can recommend a good place to buy spare parts I'd be very appreciative.
It's great machine and I wouldn't part with it but in my view it should have had stainless from the get go. What the hell were they thinking?
What was the diameter of your broken stone? The reason I ask is because I'm trying to get a feel for how much use your machine has gotten.
The wheel measures 9 1/8 inches, I misunderstood your original question, sorry.
I probably used the stone truing tool 3-4 times, I now think that was necessary due to leaving water in the trough which can cause uneven wear.
Thanks for sharing. I guess rust would do it.
I regularly put riveted kitchen knives through the dishwasher and rust develops on the rivets. The rivets expands after about 5 years of daily use and cracks the handle material. It's because iron oxide has a larger volume than iron. Must be something similar happening to you. Washing knives are a pain so I just replace them after 5-10 years. The next time, I am going to get the new knives with full tangs but wraparound plastic handles. I think Hinckle makes those and they should last a lifetime.
I shuddered when I read your post about putting knives in the dishwasher, especially when you know it causes the rivets to rust. If washing knives is a pain, why not switch to disposable plastic and/or hamburger?
My Henckel knives have been only hand washed and are in excellent condition after more than twenty years. Sorry if I sound preachy.
Ken
You are absolutely right, of course, about not putting knives in dishwashers. It ruins them. I agree with you.
Just sharing my life for your amusement. With my job and kids, I have to keep an eye on efficiency. I have a working kitchen - multiple people use the equipment keeping them pristine is hard. I like good professional cookware so the best I can say is I have a quality working kitchen like a restaurant. The stuff is a bit banged up. The Wustohfs and all clads survive wonderfully. Considering the abuse they endure, they are worth every penny and take abuse well. Everyone in my family (including me) can cook. And when they occasionally burn a pan or pot, I don't get mad. I use a wet sanding block on the stainless pots. It brings them back to shiny stainless steel in 5 minutes. It is a bit scratched, of course.
I take good care of my chisels, my outdoor knives and woodworking edged instruments. That's a hobby.
We all live differently and I respect your opinion as good counsel.
Rhino, lest you think I am piously sitting in an ivory tower, I have dulled more than a few wood bits drilling holes in masonry in my years as a telephone man. I knew full well it was tool abuse, but for one reason or another, the proper tool was broken or unavailable and the job need to be completed. Chisels are occasionally "volumteered" for duty "above and beyond". I try to do this only rarely and as gently as possible, but it does happen. (Maybe the inventor of the butt chisel was like that!)
I have the luxury (most of the time) of being the only one who uses my knives. I do the chopping and my wife does the cooking. She occasionally chops things, however, she is careful. Actually, I'm surprised that any tools survive in community kitchens or workshops!
I remember reading in James Beard that one should treat the knives as well as the good silver, that they were at least as valuable. I'm not into silver, however, my Henckel knives have been a joy to use. Yes, they have one piece plastic handles and nice sturdy bolsters. My one complaint, which can be user corrected, is that the back edges have sharp corners. I rounded the corners a bit, which helps. However, the chef's knife still hurts my hands a bit and needs another rounding treatment.
Good tip about using a wet sanding block on your pans.......But I don't think any of the gourmet magazines would publish it!
Ken
ps Check out Ron Hock's book, The Perfect Edge and Leonard Lee's Sharpening book. They both have good sections on knife sharpening. Ron even covers thinning the bolster and reshaping the curve of the knife.
I would never consider using an abrasive such as sand paper on a sanding block on my All Clad or no clad for that matter. If you burn something onto the pan/pot, use Bon Ami and a scouring pad and plenty of muscle. Good grief, knives in a dishwasher! Not even my genuine Ron Popeil cutlery goes in the dishwasher. You know the kind where that guy slashes a pineapple effortlessly in half.
Jeffs55,
I respect your opinion and respectfully submit my thinking.
The wet sanding block on all clad is really not such a bad idea for a number or reasons. First, you don't have to use 110 grid paper. You use the grid right above buffing. You can always buff it out if it ever comes to that. The pots and pans do not look like they are scratched. They look shinely. Just if you hold it in your hand and look closely, it is not a mirror finish. The insides of all clads do not have a shinely finish anyway. Also, I don't sandpaper everywhere for fun. You just sandpaper the burnt parts (on the inside or on the outside) and sand the parts that don't look like a totally cleaned surface. A pan with black burnt on food is ruined in terms of looks anyway. It will never look brand new again without a lot of polish. I rather have a shinely pot. My friends have dark streaked pots and they always say they will properly scoured it one day. You can use bon ami for an hour and still not get it as clean as a sponged based wet sanding block with ultra fine sanding paper. And, also, luckily for me, my kids always burn the same pots. The stock pots holds too much stuff to burn and the frying pans are always watched and never burns. It is usually the 1 qt and 2qt pots that burns so only a few pieces of cookware gets the sandpaper treatment. I never threw away a pot due to too much sandpaper treatment.
As for the other stuff like kitchen knives, it all depends on how you value your time and money. I feel that in my kitchen, the stuff has to be turned around for the next meal. The steel of the Wustoft knives are really good quality even after 2000 washes (6 to 8 years of dishwashers). They are very sharp from the Tormek. Whatever change in the quality of the steel is acceptable to me. I recommend the knives to everyone. :)
Quote from: garypet on August 20, 2012, 12:03:30 PM
The wheel measures 9 1/8 inches, I misunderstood your original question, sorry.
That's not much wear!
QuoteI probably used the stone truing tool 3-4 times, I now think that was necessary due to leaving water in the trough which can cause uneven wear.
I've yet to use the truing tool on the replacement stone I bought two years ago. I don't see how leaving water in the trough could cause unevenwear on the grindstone.
No, not much wear at all, I figured I had at least inch of wear left before I had to pony up for a new one.
As for the uneven wear I can't say for sure what caused that but in my manual's Maintenance section there is the following statement; "If using the natural sandstone wheel, lower the water trough after grinding so that the stone does not remain in water. Otherwise, the lower part of the stone will become soft and wear irregularly."
That's where I got that idea from.
Gary, it's too bad you will end up replacing your grinding wheel. It's a lot of expense which seems out of its time. I have a good guess s to how you feel; I recently had to replace my whole Tormek after someone broke into my vacant house and stole many of my tools. (No insurance on the contents of the house, "vacant dwelling" coverage because I was in the process of a long move.)
I had upgraded my shaft to the EZYlock. I think it's a real improvement. I hope the installation instructions are more complete than when I installed mine. It's not hard to do, just note what goes where when you remove the old shaft.
I believe your new stone will be kept fastidiously clean and well dressed. It should last a very long time.
best of luck.
Ken
All of your tools??? Wow, perhaps I should consider myself lucky!
Actually I have an update concerning my problem. After posting here and getting some good feedback I decided to contact Tormek about the rust issue. About a week later I heard back from customer support offering me a discount on a new shaft and stone which I jumped all over. So, as we speak there is a new stainless steel shaft and a new stone on the way! I was so pleased with Tormek that I also ordered the new revolving base (not discounted) for my soon to be better than new machine.
This is my first experience dealing with Tormek customer service and I have to give them an A+ as they really didn't have to offer me anything.
So I say to all my fellow Tormek users, although the initial investment is significant, you made a wise decision in giving your business to a company that stands their product.
I'm actually kind of glad that I had a problem or else I may never have found this site, what a great resource! If you folks don't mind I think I'll hang around for awhile.
Please do, this site needs more traffic, not less. ;D Thanks for the update. You won't regret the revolving base, I consider it a critical part of the system and was about to make my own when they announced its availability.
Quote from: garypet on August 24, 2012, 10:05:02 PM
This is my first experience dealing with Tormek customer service and I have to give them an A+ as they really didn't have to offer me anything.
Did you deal with Tormek directly, or one of their vendors?
Herman, Tormek referred me to "their agent" Affinity Tool Works in Troy Mi. to redeem the discount offer. The people there were very nice to deal with, plus it appears as though they carry a very nice line of woodworking tools.
Gary, I second Mike's thought. Please do continue to post; we can certainly use more voices on the forum.
Not all of my tools were stolen. Just a substantial number of the power tools. Fortunately, although the Tormek itself was stolen, the thieves missed the box with the accessories.
I think you will really like the new stainless EZYlock shaft. i'm still unpacking from my move, however, I installed the SB wheel in the hope of having some time to try out the drill jig. The wheel change was a snap.
Do keep us posted.
Ken
ps:
Gary, be sure to watch the Alan Holtham videos on the home page of this Tormek site. Alan does a very good of explaining the EZYlock shaft.
Ken
Hi Ken, glad to hear it wasn't all the tools, either I misread your post or more likely forgot exactly what I had read. At least they didn't get your accessories, you sound like you have quite a variety. By the way, when you try out that very expensive drill jig I'd be very interested to hear how you liked it. I have a ton of old drills that just don't cut it anymore and was considering the Drill Doctor to bring them back to useable condition. My dad use to sharpen his bits on a grinding wheel by hand but I don't have that kind of skill. I didn't know Tormek made a jig for doing this until last week when I first visited their site. If I remember right it was north of $200 but if it performs well it may be a better long term investment than a Drill Doctor. Is the SB wheel for sharpening HSS?
Anyone else using the drill sharpening jig? Your thoughts?
Just got your new post, thanks for the tip, I will have a peek at that video.
Hi, Gary.
Yes, I plan to post when I use the drill bit grinder. With family obligations, my shop time is limited. However, I am working toward using the DBS-22. my tormek is set up with the SB wheel and the DBS jig is in place. i hope to be sharpening drill bits by the upcoming weekend.
I'll keep you posted.
Ken
Not to knock the DBS-22 - I'm sure it's a marvelous jig - but since the subject came up, I'll say that my Drill Doctor does a beautiful job. It's less money and seems to me to require less setup time than the DBS-22. Of course, it would be nice to "do it all" with a single machine.
Update: Received my new shaft and wheel yesterday from Affinity Tool Works, installed in about 10 minutes and am happy to say I'm back in business. The easy lock nut on the new shaft works great, sure makes maintaining the shaft and bearings a no brainer. I also ordered the rotating base which I think will make my life a lot easier.
Mike, I agree with you on the DBS-22. For me it would not only be the price of the jig ($265), I would also need to purchase the black stone for doing my HSS bits. Considering the nearly $500 up front cost (in my case) I'd have to think the Drill Doctor would be the wiser choice. You said that your Drill Doctor does a "beautiful job", may I ask which model you have? From what I've read I think I'd go for the 750X. Your thoughts?
I have the 750, but not the current "X" model. The older 750 required two chucks to handle the whole range of bits from 3/32" to 3/4", but otherwise there's very little difference. I highly recommend the 750X model vs. the lower units (my usual "buy it and cry once" approach to tools). Like Tormek, DD requires a little practice to get good with, but the most important thing is to do both cutting edges of the bit the same number of strokes. One little issue the DD has that the Tormek doesn't is that since it uses a dry diamond wheel, it tends to leave grinding by-products around the area where you use it, sort of like someone spilled glitter (at least my older 750 does this, I think it's a safe assumption that the new models do too). Of course with the Tormek all that would be washed into the water trough, which is nice.
For someone with a wide variety of types of drills, the Tormek jig would almost certainly be a more versatile choice. For the typical homeowner/handyman (even a serious one), the DD will do a great job on twist drills and masonry bits which covers 98% or more of what they'll ever need at literally half the price and with less setup time. Of course both systems are useless on brad points, which is a staple in the woodworking world.
Gary and Mike,
I'm hoping to fire up the DBS-22 this weekend. I will post my initial usage thoughts.
Ken
I look forward to that Ken. Yesterday I received the newer Drill Doctor DD750X. It's a nice machine and a bit of an upgrade from my older 750SP, but some of the "new" features are kind of worthless. Primarily, the machine is advertised as being able to shape points at any angle between 118 and 140 degrees. Well, the jig DOES have a variable angle, but the only two graduations on it are 118 and 135; everything in between is just a WAG. Now, 99% (or more) of the drill bits on the planet are either 118 or 135, but it's a case of "improving" something without truly improving it. I'm more interested in the variable "material takeoff" feature of the 750X, as my 750SP would take off a bit more steel than it needed to once it had been shaped and sharpened the first time.
I believe the DBS-22 (I've never seen one in person) also has the flexibility to do a range of tip angles, but also has the graduations and the precision to make the feature meaningful. So whether the doubled cost of the DBS-22 is "worth it" may really get down to the individual user and what's important to him/her.
Gary, do you realize that your post (this thread) has become the fifth largest on this forum. Good post!
Ken
Actually no, I didn't notice that Ken. I feel very fortunate to have found this site and am looking forward to learning from the experiences of others and contributing here I can.
One other question Ken, I know you said you use the silicon stone for sharpening HSS drill bits but did you ever use the standard stone for that task. From what I've read the SG will sharpen all types of steel, just not as fast. I guess my point is, if I could get away with the stone I have I just might spring for the DBS-22.
Next time I sharpen bits, I'll use the standard wheel. I can't imagine it not working well. I'll post.
Ken
I sharpened a 7/16" hss bit earlier today. I switched back to the standard grinding wheel. I really didn't notice any difference between the black wheel and the general wheel. I might feel differently if I had a lot of bits to sharpen or, more probably, if I was sharpening carbide or other exotic bits.
With the 7/16" hss bit, if I wanted to touch up bits like this and had the regular wheel mounted on the Tormek, I don't think I would change wheels, even with the EZYlock. So, Gary, I would not let not having the black wheel hold you back.
Ken
I am wondering if Tormek has or is thinking about making a wheel with Cubic Boran, not sure of the spelling, I think this would be great but I am not an engineer so don't know if this would work. Don't think they would crack. Any thoughts/
Hello experts,
Forgive my lack of etiquette when posting to an outdated topic thread, but you guys know your stuff, and I need assistance.
I have a tormek 2000 with a grinding wheel that's frozen with rust. The wheel is still in great shape, but how can I remove the wheel from the shaft without ruining the wheel? Would you suggest a penetrating oil or a similar product? After I remove the wheel, I'll install the new stainless steel easy-off shaft, and make other improvements as my budget allows.
BTW, I have never left water standing in the reservoir, but the shaft rusted anyway.
I also plan on contacting Tormek about the problem.
Thanks for your help,
Bill Sutherland
Btsutherland@q.com
Welcome to the forum, Bill. I think you need both penetrating oil and lots of patience. Don't be in a hurry. Considering the cost of a new wheel, I believe your patience would be well rewarded.
It has been a while since I removed my shaft (to upgrade it to AZYLock, which I recommend). As I recall you can remove the drive wheel and pull the grinding wheel and shaft out the grinding wheel side. Someone check me on this. If this is possible, it would make the penetrating oil operation much easier.
Good thought about contacting Tormek (support. tormek.se), too. Please post their response on the forum.
Good luck and keep posting.
Ken
Stig (Stickan), from Tormek, replied a few a pages back in the General Questions list:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2272.msg10954#msg10954
In this main topic:
Removing rusty shaft from grindstone
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2272.0
Good post, Grepper. I had forgotten about the WD40. Bill, go with WD 40. Allow yourself several days, if needed.
I shouldn't post when trying to work the bugs out of setting up a new computer.
Ken
Hi All,
to Btsutherland:
here is a small section of a study done on various penetrating oils. I hope that it is useful.
Ty
*Penetrating oils ...
Average torque load to loosen* No Oil used...................516 pounds
WD-40 ..........................238 pounds
PB Blaster...................214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .....................106 pounds
Hi All,
ATF*-Acetone mix ...........53 pounds
The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone.
Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results.
Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.
Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also
use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.
Thanks for passing that info on tylers, that is interesting and good to know.
Remember though, as far as the Tormek stuck wheel is concerned, Stig from Tormek expressed some concern about the effect other penetrating oils might have on the hub/wheel material. I don't know if they actually have run tests, but he stated here:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2272.msg10954#msg10954
"As I wrote earlier, patience and WD-40/5-556 works but can take some days.
I would try to save the stone as well as it´s many years of use left in it. I have never used Liquid Wrench and can´t say if it works. I´m a bit concerned that it can affect the bushing in some way.
Stig"
At least with the stainless shaft, it should not be so much of an issue anymore.
At the risk of becoming practical, to those of you with stuck wheels, has all this academic talk actually worked? Have you been able to successfully remove the shafts from your grinding wheels?
Ken
Practical! ? What on earth are you thinking Ken? :)
Quote from: Ken S on February 08, 2015, 10:57:09 PM
At the risk of becoming practical, to those of you with stuck wheels, has all this academic talk actually worked? Have you been able to successfully remove the shafts from your grinding wheels?
Ken
There was a post, within the last 6 months, where the poster did get it out, but I seem to remember he was going the drill route.
I've stated before, the prior owner got mine separated, but chipped the stone and replaced it with a new one. (I swapped the shaft after I got it and it had only been used twice before I got it)
But I think the fact that this is posted in the cracked grinding wheel thread, means if you have arrived at the cracked stage, you really have gone too far.
i believe the real message of all of the rusted shaft stuck to the grinding wheel posts is the need for regular routine cleaning and regreasing of the shaft bushings. Even if it is not so critical for the bushings themselves, it will give an early warning of a rusted shaft.
With stainless steel, although it is highly rust resistant itself, it will rust if it is in the presence of rust. As we are dealing with water and steel, it seems prudent to maintain the bushing clean and lub regemin. With the EZYLock shaft, it is "stone simple" to remove the wheel frequently and for moving and long idle periods. ( See my post on placing reminder directional arrows on the housing.)
Ken