I am a new user, picked a T7 up on the weekend, mounted everything per instructions. I added light oil to the honing wheel, then a smear of honing paste and distributed it on the wheel using a chisel. Before I left for work this morning I checked the honing wheel and it seemed a little hard and dry, is this normal??
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
It looks you didn't add enough oil on the wheel initially . I would try to clean the wheel with by using the side corner of a chisel to remove the excess honing paste and apply a bit more oil, don't go to crazy with it, some people complained of over oiled honing wheels even though I never seen that happening. If you use mineral oil from pharmacy I find that a bit too thick and if you don't wait enough for it to penetrate into the wheel it is easy to remove it. The idea is to bring the leather to a darker slightly wet color on all it's surface and after that apply an initial layer of honing compound covering the entire surface and work it into the wheel. When properly loaded with oil and honing compound the leather wheel has to feel like a soft rubbery surface catching your finger. Also make sure you use mineral oil which is not supposed to dry in time.
Ionut
Great, thanks for info, I will try that tonight. I used 3 in 1 oil, do you think that will work?
I never used that oil, it may be formulated with some evaporating components that would leave you with less oil than you expect. I only used honing oil or clean mineral oil, you can find it at pharmacies, both of them worked perfectly.
Ionut
You can re-apply oil directly on the wheel as it is now but it would be better if you clean it of the dried honing compound. When you do that if you use the side corner of a chisel you don't have to apply too much pressure, the idea is to clean the honing leather and not to thin the leather, also use a chisel that you don't mind if the side corner would get slightly rounded during the process.
Ionut
Sounds like a plan, I'll let you know how it goes.
Well, I am going to have to completely disagree with Ionut. You don't need to do a thing to your wheel except use it, and add compound when you first use it and again every second or third tool. If you don't use it for a couple hours, put a little compound on the wheel. If you don't use it for two or three days, put a little compound on it. If you don't use it for two or three months, put a little compound on it....get the idea?
Put the nozzle right down on the wheel, squeeze gently and turn the wheel by hand. Play a little game with yourself to see how little compound you can apply and still make a continuous stripe all the way around the wheel.
Don't scrape the oil you've put on out, and don't put any more oil on. The purpose of the oil is to condition the leather and fill the base of the leather with oil rather than compound. After the one time only break-in application you shouldn't use anything except honing compound -- ever. 3-in-1 would not be my first choice, but it will do just fine. I recommend mineral oil, but that is difficult to find in certain parts of the world, where light machine oil is somewhat universally available. It really doesn't matter. The whole idea of recommending the oil is to save your compound while getting the honing wheel broken in.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to remove dried honing compound. Add a little fresh to the dried and it will contribute to the cutting action just as if it were fresh.
Hi Jeff,
Occasionally applying a bit of oil on the wheel is also suggested by the Tormek manual to maintain the efficiency of the honing and to avoid getting the compound dried on the wheel. I found they are right and few drops of oil on the wheel will bring it to the right working state.
Cleaning the wheel occasionally is not in the manual but after a large number of sharpening I found cleaning the excess of the used compound and steel mixture from the wheel not only makes the honing to be more efficient but helps with seeing the exact position of the cutting edge by avoiding the old gunk to get deposited on the tool, the surface is a bit firmer and it is easier to control the tool therefore the risk of accidentally rounding the edge is minimized or eliminated. This is simply what I have experienced.
Maybe in this case removing the dried compound is no necessary but obviously the leather wheel has not been oiled properly from the beginning and just compound added may only end in another dry honing wheel after another day. The role of the oil is to soften the leather which will allow the compound to penetrate it and to keep it from getting dry. In the same manner I have revived two honing wheels at the local dealership that were almost petrified because of improper initial preparation.
Thanks,
Ionut
Reading both your responses I got the sense that I didn't apply sufficient oil at the beginning of the conditioning process. Last night I just added some more oil without trying to clean the wheel. This morning the leather seemed to have softened up, when I get home this evening I will try to hone a chisel without scraping the excess honing compound off.
Thanks for the feedback, that's exactly the type of discussion a new user like me needs to hear.
Jeff
Ionut,
The problem with your comments is that I have seen hundreds of honing wheels that have been over-oiled --- far, far, far, more than I see under-oiled. Too much oil will provide a beautifully supple shiny wheel where the compound will spread evenly -- one problem however, it just won't cut. The surface gets too slick and the compound doesn't bite into the leather where it can cut the steel.
I would much rather see the user go through a little extra compound than have a wheel that will not cut.
Hi Jeff,
I understand perfectly but I also rely on the common sense of the users, there is no foolproof solution for anything, when I say few drops of oil I mean few drops of oil and not few bottles and if I recall correctly in my initial answer I have warned about the possibility of over oiling the wheel. I always try to make it clear about my suggestions or comments, they are ways I do things and found out that they work better for me, they are just my personal opinions, they can be followed or not, this is the choice of the user, I am just trying to share things that might be useful, answers to questions that I had a while back and nobody answered for me, I am not trying to show the absolute good or bad ways to do things. I have never tried to undermine you or anybody else and if my comments are not useful for the Forum and for Tormek, that's fine, let me know and I will stop posting them. In regards to this particular question a dry honing wheel is as inefficient as an over oiled one, regardless how much anybody would try to guard others to make mistakes, oiling or non-oiling enough the leather will always happen, There are ways to deal with both cases. In my case I have tried both solutions and FOR ME the method I presented earlier worked better. This doesn't mean I am the owner of the absolute truth.
Thanks,
Ionut
Ionut,
Your contributions are greatly appreciated. I'm doing just as you have said you're doing. I am providing my opinion based on almost 20 years of using the Tormek. I will only add that in my experience a dry honing wheel is much more efficient than an over-oiled wheel. A dry wheel just needs more compound. An over-oiled wheel will not cut no matter what you do or how much compound you apply. I've tried to squeeze and scrape the extra oil out in dozens of cases and have rarely been successful.
Hi Jeff,
I have never doubted your experience and knowledge about the Tormek products and even though we sometimes have different opinions about things, this doesn't mean I don't respect your opinions and your experience.
Thanks,
Ionut
I just tried mineral oil today and it is a night-and-day difference, compared to the 3-in-1 oil I was using.
The wheel is much more "grippy" or "rubbery" and the polishing/honing has improved by at least double!
I think the manual should advise against any use of 3-in-1 oil on the honing wheel!
Is that the same honing wheel you were afraid in an earlier post earlier you've ruined?
Most of the oils are lubricating oils some of them are conditioned with all kinds of evaporative stuff for cleaning and others solely for lubrication that is why some of the oils make the polishing/honing ineffective. Some of those substances may actually be bad for the leather. Mineral oil lubricates too but not as well as oils meant to be used only for lubrication and in case of honing is used for conditioning the leather.
I guess it would be hard for the manual to warn against thousands of types of oils, they simply said mineral oil. I used honing oild which is actually mineral oil thinned to allow the abraded steel particles to float and therefore not glaze the stones. I used that with great results and when I ran out I used mineral oil from pharmacy and it works great.
Lately I started experimenting with my spare wheel on my second machine which I never used so before doing the stuff I wanted, I have tried a different method of cleaning the wheel less aggressive than the hard scrapping. After oiling it and messing it with some honing compound and actually honing with it until it became black, I scrapped lightly the mess and then with the machine stopped and the wheel off the machine, I have saturated the wheel with a rag soaked in mineral spirits. I have put as much mineral spirit as possible . After that I used paper towels or shop towels to dry the wheel by b]pressing them on the wheel. Another way which I never tried but should work would be to get dowel as close as possible to the diameter of the honing wheel shaft hole and roll the when over some paper towels to absorb of the mineral oil/spirit mixture. After extracting as much as possible from the wheel I left it to get dry for an hour or so and I started using it again.
Ionut
Yeah, this is the same wheel! I thought my manual said to use "any light machine oil". I'll have to double check that, but I believe that's what led me to using the 3-in-1. Never again.
You are right, it says light machine oil, I probably forgot as I read the manual a long time ago. Sorry for that, the mineral oil just got stuck somehow in my head but I believe it is the best choice for leather honing.
I am glad you were able to restore your wheel and is working.
Ionut
I'm so glad this discussion took place here. I've been over-oiling my honing wheel for years. Today I sharpened every knife in the kitchen. As I added compound to the wheel it kept coming off as a dirty liquid goo. I kept removing the goo add adding fresh compound until I got the wheel cutting properly.
I was able to quickly sharpen and hone every knife. It was the fastest and smoothest sharpening session I've ever had.
I will never again add oil. Just fresh compound.
i have had tormeks for 18 years and totaly agree with jeff farris.
he is spot on.
Quote from: Jeff Farris on February 02, 2011, 04:44:21 AM
An over-oiled wheel will not cut no matter what you do or how much compound you apply. I've tried to squeeze and scrape the extra oil out in dozens of cases and have rarely been successful.
As I said earlier in this thread, my wheel was over-oiled and had that slick supple appearance you talked about. Problem was, though, it wouldn't cut. I was able to restore it by squeezing out and scraping off the excess oil. This process has to be repeated, though, as the embedded oil tends to mix with the residue of compound left from the previous use, and after days or weeks of resting more squeezing and scraping is required.
After some persistence, I can get the wheel to cut again. I would have been much better off, though, had I not over-oiled it to begin with.
Herman,
Notice that I said "rarely". ;D I've saved a few with exactly the process you describe...that is repeated scraping with a few days in between.
As I said in a different post before, besides the scrapping method I have found that washing thoroughly the wheel in mineral spirits, and then with warm water and dish detergent and letting it dry for a day will bring the wheel to close to a new condition.
I have used this method with my second wheel while experimenting with different home made honing compounds. It is faster as it does not have to be repeated so many time and it is easier on the leather and of course more effective.
Ionut
What exactly do you mean by "washing" in mineral spirits? I used 3 in 1 on my big wheel and honing oil on the profile wheel. Honing oil is better.
Steve
Sorry to chime in on this informative discussion, especially when I don't know very much about it. All I know is, that many years ago, as a young Boy Scout, I used to hone my knife blades with the back-side of my Grand Dad's leather belt stuck into a cabinet drawer, and held out horizontally. No oil; no honing paste. That was good enough to put an extra sharp edge on any knife.
Today, with all the talk about conditioning the honing wheels, I sure do wonder a lot. But here's the question. In all the past comments, it has been stated by many, there is, 3 in 1 oil, honing oil, light mineral oil, mineral oil, thinned mineral oil, and mineral oil/spirit. Is there any wonder why I should ask, if oil of some kind is necessary on the honing wheel, then what would be a good one to use; what, by name, and where to buy it? Can there be a commonly accepted one just for discussions? Gipper
Drug store mineral oil from the laxative section is as good a solution as anything available and is the most economical option available in the U.S. It is not as widely available in other parts of the world.
Baby oil is mineral oil with fragrance added.
As I have posted dozens of times, the point of the oil is a one time conditioning treatment only. Don't get too wrapped up in the oil thing. There's plenty of oil in the honing compound. Just apply some compound and polish your tools. A LITTLE bit of oil on the leather when it is brand new will save you a LITTLE bit of honing compound in getting your honing wheel broken in.
Quote from: Steve Brown on April 23, 2011, 10:53:02 PM
What exactly do you mean by "washing" in mineral spirits? I used 3 in 1 on my big wheel and honing oil on the profile wheel. Honing oil is better.
Steve
Steve,
I was referring to a cleaning alternative for the wheel in case it got over oiled, as a response to the previous two posts.
I use honing oil too, is thin and works perfectly, I have tried the pharmacy mineral oil but I find it too thick and until I've tried it I didn't understand how a wheel can get over oiled. Being thicker it is easier to over oil the wheel as the leather does not absorb it fast enough and by the time you think is enough it is already too much.
Ionut
Ionut,
But what is the actual process you use with the mineral spirits on the wheel? Do you use a rag or a paper towel and hold it on the wheel while it turns or do you remove the wheel and then use a paper towel or rag soaked in mineral spirits. I guess what I'm really asking is how agressively do you approach the removal process. I mean, do you remove the black surface build up to the point where you can see the brown of the leather like when it was new, or do you just cleah it up a little such that you can just feel some of the old texture, but not down to the original leather? does that make sense? BTW, are you that famous Software Engineer from up there around BC?
Hi Steve,
I use a big plastic bowl with enough mineral spirit, I take the wheel off and soak it in the bowl and use a plastic brush to clean the wheel. From time to time using a metal rod I roll the wheel on some paper towels or shop towels leaning on the wheel to allow the mess to come out and then I soak it and scrub it again in the mineral spirit. I repeat this process until the whole mess is removed and I can see the brown color of the leather. It will never get to look light orange as it was when new but it will get pretty light brown when is dry. After washing it with mineral oil move to the sink and wash it thoroughly with hot water and dish detergent until the leather is not slippery anymore. Then let it dry over night.
That's what I've done a couple of times while playing with different honing compounds and it worked fine for me. You only have to do it if you got it over oiled or like me I was trying all kinds of mess on it. Be careful do not use other solvents like Lacquer thinner or Xylene, they will dissolve the plastic.
"I am just a lowly cook"... :)
Ionut
Ionut,
You'll never be just a lowly cook. I know the type, always strive for excellence. Your response was very clear and easy to follow. Thank you for that.
Steve
I'm glad we are all friendly......Great schisms and feuds have begun with issues like this.
Ken
Hi Ken,
I don't really see the issue here. Differences of opinions between responsible and serious people always lead to good things.
Ionut
Yeah, but who's reasonable and serious?
I meant my comment in a light hearted way. I also believe all concerned are reasonable and serious. It certainly livens up the forum.
Ken
Ken,
I don't know, you think that Ionut guy is a serious woodworker?
Steve
Yes, I do. Both Ionut and Jeff have helped push the limits of the Tormek and opened new possibilities. I a grateful they are both part of this forum.
Ken
Wahl clipper oil is 100% mineral oil (I checked the safety sheet: http://www.worldsgreatestshave.com/downloads/Safety_Info_on_Clipper_oil.pdf). I used this with great success on honing wheel initially. The Tormek manual states to apply 14ml initially and I would concur that this is about what it took to darken the leather uniformly.
Good thought, William. I bought a bottle of mineral oil at the drug store. It works fine, but is probably a millennium supply, overkill for a retiree like me.
Ken
Does anyone know about the Tormek oil that comes in a small tube, I saw it in this YouTube video Tormek T-4 Bushcraft: Getting Started.
Link here to video
https://youtu.be/RT3CpRPDP_I
There seems to be no Tormek product number associated with the little white tube that comes with a new machine. Label on it says: "100% Pharmaceutical white oil". Don't know what that means, but based on the above thread any light machine or mineral oil will do. Also based on the thread above, do not over oil. I'd say unless your wheel is REALLY dry, I would only add a little compound and hone with it. Jeff Farris said the oil is only to fill the leather so it doesn't take honing compound to fill it. Over oiling leaves it too slick for the honing compound to bite into the leather and to any cutting on the blade.
Rick
I believe it is a very high grade of mineral oil, possibly food grade, although that level of purity is not necessary. My guess is that it was chosen as much for the size odf the container to prevent overoiling.
I have prepared six leather honing wheels over the years with a variety of products, including 3 in 1 oil, mineral oil, the Tormek oil, and no oil. All worked, although the no oil wheel, done at the suggestion of a Tormek demonstrator, left black dust. A later application of mineral oil solved that problem. With a new Tormek, I would use the included tube. Lacking that, mineral oil works fine.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 16, 2018, 09:10:18 PM
I believe it is a very high grade of mineral oil, possibly food grade, although that level of purity is not necessary. My guess is that it was chosen as much for the size odf the container to prevent overoiling.
I have prepared six leather honing wheels over the years with a variety of products, including 3 in 1 oil, mineral oil, the Tormek oil, and no oil. All worked, although the no oil wheel, done at the suggestion of a Tormek demonstrator, left black dust. A later application of mineral oil solved that problem. With a new Tormek, I would use the included tube. Lacking that, mineral oil works fine.
Ken
Hello,
Just want to confirm that Ken is correct in saying that mineral oil works perfectly fine (for example light sewing machine oil).
We started including a small tube of oil with our machines around a year ago to make the setup even easier for the user, but as mentioned, any other light mineral oil works as well.
Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Communications Manager
Hello, Marie.
I think the idea of including the tube of mineral oil with new Tormek units is very clever. It does make set up easier. In my opinion, the real genius in the idea is not the choice of lubricant;it is the quantity in the tube. Even if a new user uses the entire tube and not the recommended amount, he can't go too far astray. When I purchased my first T7, my set up was interrupted by a trip to the pharmacy to purchase mineral oil. Including the tube also eliminates that interruption.
Good thinking!
Ken
Quote from: marie on October 17, 2018, 07:18:39 AM
Quote from: Ken S on October 16, 2018, 09:10:18 PM
I believe it is a very high grade of mineral oil, possibly food grade, although that level of purity is not necessary. My guess is that it was chosen as much for the size odf the container to prevent overoiling.
I have prepared six leather honing wheels over the years with a variety of products, including 3 in 1 oil, mineral oil, the Tormek oil, and no oil. All worked, although the no oil wheel, done at the suggestion of a Tormek demonstrator, left black dust. A later application of mineral oil solved that problem. With a new Tormek, I would use the included tube. Lacking that, mineral oil works fine.
Ken
Hello,
Just want to confirm that Ken is correct in saying that mineral oil works perfectly fine (for example light sewing machine oil).
We started including a small tube of oil with our machines around a year ago to make the setup even easier for the user, but as mentioned, any other light mineral oil works as well.
Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Communications Manager
The key here is
light mineral oil... some of the mineral oil sold (usually in pharmacy/drug stores) is thicker, and doesn't work as well.
I'm glad this old topic resurfaced when it did. It came at just the right time to offer me advice and comfort. You can count me among the number who have over-oiled their leather honing wheels. I'll share what happened in case it helps future newbies avoid my mistake.
I dutifully followed the instructions to use what I estimated to be about 2/3 of the included oil to treat the honing wheel that came with my T8. I wasn't sure whether I used enough--and was not aware at the time of the admonition to not use too much--but went ahead and applied compound. So far, so good,
After a few tools and a bit more compound, I started noticed that little bits of spent compound were flaking off as I honed. I didn't realize that was normal, and mistakenly took it to be a sign that there was not enough oil and that the compound was not sticking.
No harm, no foul, I thought and decided to go back to square one. I removed the old compound with a tooth brush and a wire brush and--here's where y'all will cringe--re-oiled the wheel and then added more compound. At one point a few days later I was afraid it was getting a bit dry and added a bit more oil, using Norton Honing Oil now. After that, everything seemed to settle into a nice steady state of happy honing.
Shortly after the final time I added oil, I started noticing several threads cautioning against over oiling. I got a bit nervous, but thought I'd dodged that bullet and resolved to not add any more oil.
Then a couple of days ago, after the machine had been sitting idle for a few days, I was honing a knife and noticed goo similar to what Herman described earlier in the thread:
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on February 27, 2011, 02:33:10 AM
I'm so glad this discussion took place here. I've been over-oiling my honing wheel for years. Today I sharpened every knife in the kitchen. As I added compound to the wheel it kept coming off as a dirty liquid goo. I kept removing the goo add adding fresh compound until I got the wheel cutting properly.
...
I hadn't seen this thread yet, but ended up doing essentially what he did to get things working well again. I put then put the machine away for a couple of days and, sure enough, the goo came back, just like Herman said it would a bit later:
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on April 20, 2011, 04:07:53 AM
...
I was able to restore it by squeezing out and scraping off the excess oil. This process has to be repeated, though, as the embedded oil tends to mix with the residue of compound left from the previous use, and after days or weeks of resting more squeezing and scraping is required.
After some persistence, I can get the wheel to cut again. I would have been much better off, though, had I not over-oiled it to begin with.
Last night I did the scrape and squeeze routine and things are looking a lot better. I'll repeat as necessary. I think it's all going to turn out OK. Mine has never been so bad that it wouldn't cut, it just wasn't operating as well as it had in the past.
Happy honing,
Greg
Thanks for all of you who gave such great answers to my question on best oil to use for the honing wheel.
8)