Hi all
This probably sounds lame. I have a T-8 Black, my first ever Tormek, and I am struggling to get knives really sharp.
I am sharpening to 15 degrees, and that seems okay. But when I use the composite wheel I must be doing it wrong.
Basic questions. Should I use the tool jig or hold freehand? And should I have the knife flat on the wheel to remove the burr or should I try to also place it at 15 degrees, which is really hard when handholding.
Many thanks
Jim
Hi Jim,
since nobody is replying...
look at the site of (sadly defunct) forum Member Wootz: http://www.knifegrinders.com.au/
I had those very questions answered by reading his deburring booklet (pdf or whatever).
This costs a few bucks but is reasonable. He has a video there that may already answer your questions.
Another part of the equation is maintaining the correct angles throughout. On the Tormek, this boils down to one single adjustment: the universal bar´s (USB) distance to the grinding wheel. This is most easily calculated by one of the programs that are available for free on this forum.
It lead me to the right steps, and now I have knifes with great sharpness.
Far beyond perfection perhaps, but that is not the objective.
have fun,
-Helmut
You could use the angle master to find the approximate spot where 15 degrees is on your honing wheel. I am hesitant to recommend spending more money on an already expensive sharpening system, but a FVB is an extremely useful tool in taking your honing to the next level.
I would also like to add that it is easy to get discouraged with results in early attempts with the Tormek, I know I did. There is little substitute for patience and practice. With time and effort, you will see things get exponentially better.
Free handing on a leather honing wheel is more forgiving than the composite wheel.
That said I would recommend honing on either at a precise angle in the jig using a frontal vertical base. Using any calculator to achieve this is relatively simple.
I would then recommend a further honing step on a leather honing wheel or a hanging leather strop to completely remove any residual burr. This should give you the sharpness you are looking for.
As previously suggested, there is a learning curve to Tormek use and I feel the T8 black package might not be the sharpening nirvana it's maybe promoted to be without some leg work.
Others will surely comment to aid you on your journey. Good luck and don't rush!
Welcome to the forum, Jim.
It sounds like the grinding part of sharpening is going well for you. I would recommend seriously studying the Tormek online class on basic honing. Here is a link:
https://www.youtube.com/live/40AoJ8UBprI?feature=share
Several other of the classes also include honing. I have watched most of the online classes several times, and continue learning from them.
Do not get discouraged and do keep us posted.
Ken
Wow, thank you very much everyone. I must admit, I do wish I'd gone for the t-8 rather than the t-8 black; I've already bought a conventional stone and found it to be better than the diamond wheel, and that meant I've also had to buy the truing tool. You live and learn.
An FVB is not something g I've looked into so I'll research that. And thank you for clarifying the angle, from the videos it looked like honing was done with the knife flat, but now I know the angle needs to be maintained I'll have another go.
Many thanks for your help everyone.
Jim
The FVB that a couple of replies have mentioned, is there a particular model you recommend I look at? I'm UK-based.
Many thanks.
Quote from: jimwillsher on August 05, 2023, 08:53:31 AMThe FVB that a couple of replies have mentioned, is there a particular model you recommend I look at? I'm UK-based.
Many thanks.
Check these:
ColvinTools (https://colvintools.com/Tormek-FVB.html)
SchleifJunkies (https://schleifjunkies.de/en/product/vertical-front-base/)
(Not sure which would be better based on where you are.)
Wolfknives (Feines Werkzeug) (https://www.feines-werkzeug.de/werkzeuge/schaerfen-schleifen/tormek/tormek-zubehoer/4535/vordere-vertikale-basis-vvb-100-fuer-tormek?c=201) in Germany. Unbeatable Price.
+1 for the FVB, especially as the more abrasive CW will be less forgiving freehand as has already been mentioned. Also do you use your CW slightly wet? I find the feedback better, and the result less agressive.
Thanks for the headsup on Wolfknives, I'll have a look. Yes I use the CW slightly wet, and it definitely does have a different feel. My issue is getting the correct angle so hopefully a FVB will help.
It will most certainly help. Angle consistency notwithstanding, it is easier to hone for extended periods when you just have to manage the sliding, not the lifting. You can also easily go very slowly or very quickly, without altering your honing angle.
As for freehand honing, which I do only when I have to, I find that there's some kind of a sweet spot in between when then blade glides (angle too low) or when it scrapes (angle too high) : the honing wheel barely catches the burr, and so there is a slight increase in drag/pull from the wheel. The feeling changes, as does the sound. I find it harder to find on the composite wheel, as you don't get those tiny black lumps of honing compound that start to rise from the wheel, so the change in feeling/sound is more subtle.
I did some freehanding in early days according to the method shown by Tormek. You can choose your working position to an extent. My results were inferior.
After studying Wootz´works, I am convinced that you need to be precise with deburring too, because either your angle is too low, or too high (either useless or ruining your edge) or just right. It is too easy to have the wheel catch the blade and then be off the right spot.
That settled, I found that using the USB on the horizontal position for honing does not work in many cases.
The position you need is obstructed by some machine component.
Using a FVB breaks you free from that limit. I knitted my own which works a treat, but in the lights of above offers, it is not really worth. The main cost factor is the XB-100. Note that having a rod with a standard metric screw is not of much use, but again you don´t need it since you use the precise screw on your USB.
Quote from: aquataur on August 10, 2023, 01:14:48 PM...I found that using the USB on the horizontal position for honing does not work in many cases.
The position you need is obstructed by some machine component.
Using a FVB breaks you free from that limit. I knitted my own which works a treat...
Would you mind elaborating on how the FVB allows better access for honing, espescially for longer knives?
I also made a FVB which works perfectly although I still couldn't get enough space for honing knives at precise angles. I find the Grinding wheel is still in the way.
I ended up with another solution which allows me to hone knives. I got a 200mm diameter leather wheel from Shleifjunkies (excellent service, BTW) and mounted it on the slow geared drive of my cheap bench grinder. I then made a new support for the USB so that I can grind on the Tormek and then hone efficiently on this wheel.
I use Calcapp (thanks CBW,finally got my head round using it!) to get the required grinding and honing angles and now I don't do the manual honing method at all.
If anyone is interested, I could post a photo to explain, if it helps.
Danny
Quote from: Dan on August 10, 2023, 01:53:56 PMQuote from: aquataur on August 10, 2023, 01:14:48 PMI also made a FVB which works perfectly although I still couldn't get enough space for honing knives at precise angles. I find the Grinding wheel is still in the way.
This is why one should keep the spacer that comes with a Tormek, or buy/build one. A piece of 20mm PVC pipe cut at the proper width (50mm ?) works a charm. This way you can replace the grinding wheel with the spacer when honing long knives.
Well, yes! I still have the spacer but...
I was asking how the FVB helps give more access for honing compared to the normal horizontal base whether or not the grinding wheel is on.
I tend to do a batch of all my own kitchen knives maybe 10 or so at a time once a week(ish) and I do not want to take the wheel off and then put it back on for each knife. Hence the honing apart on a separate wheel/machine without any obstacles at all!
I can just grind then hone quickly without any faffing around or changing any set up.
Danny
I'm 100% with you on this, I even bought a T-8 custom dedicated to honing, so I just setup the FVB for honing and USB for grinding, adjust the projection distances, and I'm down to 3-5 minutes per knife if they've been ground to the preset angle already.
My separate honing wheel for any one interested. if the photo posting works!
(https://i.postimg.cc/QFqT1hk7/20230810-142940.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QFqT1hk7)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mcX1pjn2/20230810-143043.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcX1pjn2)
Danny
Quote from: tgbto on August 10, 2023, 02:42:29 PMI'm 100% with you on this, I even bought a T-8 custom dedicated to honing, so I just setup the FVB for honing and USB for grinding, adjust the projection distances, and I'm down to 3-5 minutes per knife if they've been ground to the preset angle already.
Exactly!
Dan,
that bench grinder hack I was thinking of too. In this case you don´t have any obstruction.
This device does not work well in its native mode, wet grinding, since it grinds away from you, and you cannot easily work from the other side, as on the Tormek. But it appears perfect for honing purposes as shown. Congrats.
Maybe the obstruction just occurs on a T-3, which I have.
I recently had a knife in the new symmetric knife jig, and a projection of some 145mm.
IIRC the knife´s handle or my hands or something bulky interfered with the USB´s support rods.
As soon as you raise the USB bar (by using the vertical support of the FVB), the rods disappear downwards and your action range is cleared again.
It wasn´t a particularly long knife either, just a 20cm kitchen knife or shorter.
The FVB rotates the contact point of the knife upwards, which makes for a much more natural working position too.
You have to remove the grinding wheel, or it will be in the way.
Quote from: Dan on August 10, 2023, 02:21:44 PMI tend to do a batch of all my own kitchen knives maybe 10 or so at a time once a week(ish) and I do not want to take the wheel off and then put it back on for each knife. Hence the honing apart on a separate wheel/machine without any obstacles at all!
I can just grind then hone quickly without any faffing around or changing any set up.
Dan,
I just recently pondered about similar things.
This disk-swapping is a nuisance. I could live with it, but the real drag is that once you have your wheel beautifully dressed and running true, it´s all up the Swanee once you re-mount it again.
I use the leather wheel for honing, but I also use the rock hard felt wheel afterwards. IMHO the prior polishes the bevel, the latter gives it the real sharp edge.
Those machines you have are actually very cheap (particularly used), and as a matter of fact, they look absolutely identical over here. Probably all from the same Chinese factory.
One could get them used for next to nuthin´ and set one up for stropping and one for deburring, but then... There gotta be a stop to this.
I also use several wheels (a coarse for heavy jobs, a medium for the meat, a fine for polishing and one for the hard stuff), and you´d probably want separate machines for them. But indeed, the pro´s do have separate machines for each task...
Where is the end? I leave it as is and live with it.
;D ;D Thanks for your answers.
I am extremely happy with my T8 but there are limitations. The basic set up works extremely well for woodworking tools but achieving the same results with knives (and especially larger ones) is more complicated without some sort of adaptation.
Removing the grinding wheel to hone is just a pain to me.
On the T8 I couldn't find a satisfactory method for honing knives with the grinding wheel on. I asked the question about your technique in the hope that I had missed something :D :D
I decided to use the slow drive on the bench grinder as I never used it for grinding at all. It was just there anyway. I did have to upgrade the machine little to run nicely but it wasn't too difficult. These machines are really not bad but quite poorly made in terms of accuracy.
Still, with a little effort I can now grind and hone quite precisely. I still use the Tormek honing wheel for chisels and planes.
As far as the FVB is concerned, I made one myself which I am very happy with. I must say that I have not had extensive use of it yet. I haven't really found much need apart from sharpening a very wide cleaver which was difficult to grind on the usual side as the USB was hardly in the slots! I know I could get a longer Tormek USB to help but....
The FVB enables the USB to change its position dramatically - just pull out a bit and the USB is much further away. This allows the same angles for wider blades but much lower in the vertical slots to get a solid position. This means grinding away from you for a change but it works very well too.
Danny
What is the purpose of the FVB? I learned this while trying to determine if it was possible to hone knives held in the knife jig with the T4. The handbook says no, that knives must be honed freehand with the T4. That is not quite correct. The problem is that the plastic locking knobs do not clear the support bar. For the very thrifty, this can be corrected with a few M6 thread grub screws for around five dollars US. The FVB does the same thing, but much more conveniently. It does this for both the T3/4 and T7/8. After proving that the grub method worked, I decided that the extra cost for an FVB was worthwhile. The FVB raises the knife jig enough to clear the support bar with the plastic locking knibs of the jig and the horizontal sleeves.
Ken
Hi Dan. I understand your frustrations with removing grinding wheel to hone knives at a controlled angle using a FVB. Your solution using your slow grinder with a leather wheel is good.
When sharpening a lot of knives where some speed and efficiency is required but accuracy is also required, there are other ways.
I rarely use the FVB with leather honing wheel/felt wheel these days.
I set the edge on the T8 at grit 400 or 1000 then remove knife from jig and hone on a WSKO at lowest speed with Tormek honing compound. Usually at +2 degrees and then exact, compensating for the taper of the knife.
A quick hone on a hanging leather strop then gives 90-110 Bess for most mainstream knives, surely sharp enough for my knife abusing customers?
However, for higher end knives and super hard steels ( those tending to a negative burr) I definitely use the FVB for very precise honing. When I am taking the time to do this precisely, removing the grinding wheel to achieve this is no big deal for me.
Or, get another T8 and have it exclusively set up for honing with a FVB?
If your present set up ticks the boxes then stick with it.
Sir Amwell,
I suspect that freehanding comes with time.
For the moment, I am glad I can get my cutting tools sharp with the crutches. There is enough to comprehend to get it right first hand.
Quote from: aquataur on August 05, 2023, 08:56:46 PMWolfknives (Feines Werkzeug) (https://www.feines-werkzeug.de/werkzeuge/schaerfen-schleifen/tormek/tormek-zubehoer/4535/vordere-vertikale-basis-vvb-100-fuer-tormek?c=201) in Germany. Unbeatable Price.
Thank you for the tip, I ordered last week from Wolfknives and it has just arrived. Guess what I'll be doing this evening :)
May I suggest you look at the video on the knifegrinders site concerning deburring. This tells you a lot on removing the burr. I bought a felt wheel according to the specs given there and that works much better for me than the strop wheel. Well, to be fair, it is a slightly different field of application. BUT, once you remount it you'll have a hard time to get it running true again... it is Semi-rigid.
I have a few thoughts. I agree that the Knife Grinders videos are worth watching. Also, I recommend Vadim's deburring book. I have both the print and electronic version. It has a lot of good information, and, as Vadim has passed away, who knows how much longer it will be available.
I have made several spacers out of 5/8" OD plastic pipe. They work adequately well. However, schleifjunkies sells the Mercedes of spacers. It is designed by Alex and solidly machined out of delrin. It is much thicker than other spacers and is a joy to use.
Regarding another machine for honing, a T4 "Custom" is a quality machine for a reasonable price. Without a water trough, it easily holds a 200mm honing or felt wheel. The motor runs at 120 RPM, slightly faster than the T8. Tormek does not market this stripped down version; however, some larger dealers will put one together for you.
Using the original example in this topic of a batch of ten knives, are all ten of them long enough to require removing the grinding wheel? If the removal/replacement time is a real problem, extra knife jigs are less expensive than a second machine. Two or three spare knife jigs would certainly speed things.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on August 17, 2023, 05:29:43 PM...batch of ten knives, are all ten of them long enough to require removing the grinding wheel?
If using the USB to hone then, yes, definitely. For manual honing of couse it is OK at an angle to avoid the grinding wheel but it is just not so accurate (for me anyway) even with a lot of practice.
Quote from: Ken S on August 17, 2023, 05:29:43 PM...If the removal/replacement time is a real problem, extra knife jigs are less expensive than a second machine. Two or three spare knife jigs would certainly speed things.
Ken
Not sure how extra jigs might speed it up as you still have to mount each knife in a jig regardless. Anyway as I said, I had the other very cheap machine anyway to use. Maybe if one gets a good price on a used T4 or even T3, it would make an affordable useful honing place.
Now, for me with this set up, it is very easy to grind knives and then quickly transfer to the other machine for honing without any changing of wheels and still keeping the knife in the jig to allow for angle accuracy.
Danny
Hi Dan. Ken is giving good advice. When I am doing a batch of knives I put them all at the same projection on my jigs for a given angle set up on grinding wheel on the T8. Set all those knives ready for honing. Then remove grind wheel and set up for honing on leather wheel with a FVB. Or your chosen honing method. The removal of the grinding wheel becomes less of an issue.
You will need more jigs though. I have 10 of the old svm45 which makes it easy for volume sharpening and with those old adjustable jigs makes it easy to set them all to a predetermined projection measurement.
If you are just occasional sharpening, what is the issue with removing the grinding wheel to enable you to hone?
Am I missing something with your problem?
You already seem to have solved the problem with your independent honing set up.
--
Quote from: Sir Amwell on August 18, 2023, 01:20:48 AMHi Dan. Ken is giving good advice. When I am doing a batch of knives I put them all at the same projection on my jigs for a given angle set up on grinding wheel on the T8. Set all those knives ready for honing. Then remove grind wheel and set up for honing on leather wheel with a FVB. Or your chosen honing method. The removal of the grinding wheel becomes less of an issue.
You will need more jigs though. I have 10 of the old svm45 which makes it easy for volume sharpening and with those old adjustable jigs makes it easy to set them all to a predetermined projection measurement.
If you are just occasional sharpening, what is the issue with removing the grinding wheel to enable you to hone?
Am I missing something with your problem?
You already seem to have solved the problem with your independent honing set up.
Not sure I see it as a 'problem' per se... I simply don't want to remove the wheel each time I want to hone a knife accurately.
It involves (unless I am not getting something ;) )
setting up angle,
grinding knife,
lowering water tray,
emptying water tray,
removing grinding wheel,
do honing,
remounting grinding wheel,
putting water tray back on and up,
refilling water level in tray,
resetting angle,
and all over again
for each knife. This assumes that the grinding wheel goes back on exactly lined up and true as before which I have doubts about.
Or buy 10 knife jigs like you say ;D but then one still has to mount each knife in a jig anyway so no real time saving in that sense.
I just wanted a different way.
As I said, it is much more straightforward in my mind to grind, then keeping the knife in the jig so no change of projection distance (I have only one KJ-45) and go straight to honing on the other wheel I got. The grinding wheel is still ready and waiting for the next knife.
Each knife takes a few minutes to sharpen (grind and hone) accurately with no faffing around.
To me it is more or less an extension of the whole Tormek idea. The machine is a grinding wheel and honing wheel already set up on one machine. This is perfect for woodworking tools and some others and is a hassle free design. No need to change wheels on and off for honing etc. Just imagine if there was only one axle with a wheel available. You would need to change the wheel to hone and then once again to grind.
To me that is the situation with knives. The Tormek is simply not really designed for knives which is probably why a lot of people who do knives regularly develop a separate system for honing.
The T8 and T4 are excellent machines but they have some limits.
It reminds me of that machine that Tormek made in the past (see history of Tormek video) with a long axle and hence a big distance between the grinding and honing wheels. They obviously decided not to pursue this design as it made it a big and bulky item. But it looked very practical for longer items like knives.
For most people the basic machine is OK and you find ways to use it satisfactorily. My separate honing wheel thing didn't cost a lot and works very well for longer items.
I hope that helps explains my thinking somewhat.
Danny
" or buy 10 knife jigs like you say".....
I'm sure you will understand the following and I'm only explaining what I do.
Having 10 of the old svm knife jigs allows you to set each knife to a set projection so that you only need to set the usb once to obtain a given angle.
Grind all knives.
Now,keeping knives in jigs, remove the grinding wheel and set your honing angle on the leather wheel. It will be the same for each knife.
Hone.
So for a batch of 10 knives you've only had to remove the grinding wheel once. You've only had to adjust usb once for grinding.
If you were to use your independent honing station then you haven't removed the wheel even once. May be you would have to lower the water trough at the end though!
Seriously though I take your point that the Tormek does have limitations for knives, probably because of its original design to sharpen mostly woodworking tools.
But then knife sharpening is one of those things. To do it properly and with pride takes some patience, practice and fiddle faddle.
Unless of course you just use belt grinders to speed everything up.
Also I would not advocate you buying multiple kj45 jigs.
The old style adjustable svm jigs are much more suited to doing a batch of knives at a set projection.
Compared, the kj45s have only a tiny amount of adjustment available.
But let's not go down that route again!
Sir Amwell makes an interesting point. Although many thousands of Tormeks are being used to sharpen knives, Torgny created the original Tormek as a birthday present for his father, a carpenter, to sharpen his woodworking tools. In the grand tour online class, Sebastien refers to the blue Tormek models (the T4 and T8) as "the woodworking machines". Over the years, Tormek has made several specialty machines for sharpening knives. The two present knife specialty machines are the T2 and T1. With the incorporated knife jig, knife length is not a constraint. The angled composite honing wheel allows knives to be honed at an angle, thus avoiding interference with the grinding wheel.
Granted, having to remove the grinding wheel when honing longer knives held in the knife jig is inconvenient. However, in fairness to Tormek, their preferred method of knife honing has always been freehand honing in trained hands.
Ken
Sometimes I feel like the devil's advocate..........
I personally would love to see the option of an angled composite wheel for the T8.
If Tormek still made the T4000, or made a small batch of them, I'm pretty sure it would sell very well as a dedicated knife sharpening machine, that distance between the two wheels and USB supports both sides would make it perfect for me !
The only parts they would have to actually make as far as I can see are the wider stainless chassis and a longer majnshaft.
I would go as far as to say that with those two parts you could build such a machine yourself in conjunction with a used T2000........
Just a thought !
Interesting thoughts, Andy.
Although it is a smaller diameter, the angled composite honing wheel of the T2 (and T1) is interchangeable with the T4.
I suspect a small production run T4000 would cost considerably more than just adding a T8 Custom. A second T8 could also serve as a backup in the unlikely event of a service problem with the first Tormek.
Ken
For me, the ,,woodworking" machines are a specialized compromise. They can do everything, but are not particularly excellent in any field. Do not misunderstand what I'm saying.
Let´s take Dan´s case. 10 knifes per week can already be considered volume sharpening, in the sense that permanent swapping of wheels and that quickly explodes into excessive additional load.
A dedicated sharpening service would never put up with such fandango, they would go and buy dedicated machinery for each task.
Yet being an advanced hobbyist, considering you had such (even small) volumes of drills, knifes, chisels etc. to sharpen, you would immediately go and try to limit such procedures as swapping wheels, even swapping USB etc. by obtaining more machines for the individual tasks. Even if it were just a wet/dry grinder like Dan uses.
Our Wootz went an intermediate way by buying a Tormek for each task: stone1, stone2, leather strop (methinks), felt wheel, and a half speed large axle (fast) grinder for the paper wheels.
The earlier ones work well whith the given axle length, the latter are specialized anyways.
And that is only the knives served...
There is a line beyond which you want to determine which way to go.
I do a lot of experimentation, like the recent face grinding for secondary bevels (relief), so I have a very coarse wheel, the stock wheel, a SiC wheel and a polishing wheel. Those cover the grit range from 120,220,600 to 1000 for individual tasks. Sometimes you need two wheels at least for a knife or axe. Ramming my basement full with individual machines? No. Too much space, too costly.
And let´s face it: we probably have all started out wanting sharp knives. Do we want to be slaves to all that gear?
Yes I can see the point, and yes it gets up my nose too, but I am content with it. I have thought about dedicating my wet/dry grinder to the felt wheel. That´s about it.
So because it has been asked here what the problems are with changing wheels: the problem is that you true any wheel and the next time you mount it it wobbles.
I find myself re-opening and re-fastening the wheels several times before it runs acceptable, but never as true as before.
The SG-200 (I have a T3), unlike the after-market other wheels I have, has a few tenth of a millimeter bore play and I have to put on thin layers of adhesive tape every time I mount it. And of course remove this once I use a different wheel.
This is really sickening.
If anybody has found a fix for this, I would be very thankful.
Oh and by the way, the coarse wheel is the re-purposed wheel from said wet/dry grinder. It has a 20mm bore and came with an entirely useless adaptor.
I had one 3d-printed with a bore that fits very snugly. Once trued, it is much easier to get mounted and run true.
Quote from: aquataur on August 19, 2023, 11:47:53 AMA dedicated sharpening service would never put up with such fandango, they would go and buy dedicated machinery for each task.
I know two sharpening services which use the multiple Jig Solution as described.
You used the word "never". A more open statement would possibly fit better.
Quote from: aquataur on August 19, 2023, 11:47:53 AMSo because it has been asked here what the problems are with changing wheels: the problem is that you true any wheel and the next time you mount it it wobbles.
I find myself re-opening and re-fastening the wheels several times before it runs acceptable, but never as true as before.
This is another reason I prefer not to remove the wheel even though not many users who do change wheels frequently report having any problem with this.
Quote from: aquataur on August 19, 2023, 11:47:53 AMThe SG-200 (I have a T3), unlike the after-market other wheels I have, has a few tenth of a millimeter bore play and I have to put on thin layers of adhesive tape every time I mount it. And of course remove this once I use a different wheel.
This is really sickening.
If anybody has found a fix for this, I would be very thankful.
This does sound like a particular problem with either the wheel hole or the axle on your machine. More generally, some people suggest always lining up the wheel with the label writing horizontally before tightening so that it goes back in theory in the same place. Not sure it would help if there is significant play between the parts. I think I read of someone using some sort of epoxy filler on the wheel hole with a suitable diameter teflon? rod while it sets. This may not be possible with such a small amount of play though.
Danny
I learned the lesson of trying to extend the useful life of my computer years ago. I would purchase a machine capable of working with the operating system of the day, only to have it become sluggish when the next operating system was introduced. I learned to overbuy.
I believe the ideal solution for this dilemma is a second T8, a T8 Custom. The initial cost may seem high; however, in addition to effortlessly eliminating the need to remove the grinding wheel on the first Tormek, should you ever feel the need for a second grinding wheel, it will be an exact fit. All of your jigs will fit, and all of your settings will match.
Ken
Quote from: Dan on August 19, 2023, 02:06:05 PMNot sure it would help if there is significant play between the parts
I don´t think it would help. It is not so that the axle is bent or the fastening screw´s flange non precise...
I think part of the problem is axial play on the stone. Even a tenth of a millimeter play will be transported to the circumference and appear as wobble both ways. The above mentioned cheap stone it was originally fitted with some disgrace of an adaptor. Wobble was a nightmare. I was surprised how well this now behaves after fitting it with a tailor made adaptor and truing with the diamond.
I think the other part is the mounting flange and/or the blotter:
QuoteBlotters help to assure that the flange clamping pressure is evenly distributed on the wheel. (...) You must therefore use one clean new blotter for each mounting flange.(...)
Never re-use old blotters when remounting wheels.
(Source:
Blotter size vs. Flange size - what is the Rule? by Nortonabrasives.
While this surely applies to fast running wheels, it will be applicable to an extent even to our situation. Because nothing else can explain why re-opening and re-fastening cures the problem. (sometimes.)
You make a good case for having a separate T8 for the leather honing wheel. By not having to remove the grinding wheel when jig held honing, once you fine tune the wheel alignment, it should remain properly aligned.
Ken
This Knife Grinders video shows some interesting possibilities. I still think a second Tormek is the ideal solution; however, this shows some Tormek based, but not exclusively Tormek solutions.
https://youtu.be/c6iIC3wBmNY
For anyone not in a hurry, I believe it is prudent to wait until the promised Tormek Advanced Honing online class is available.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on August 19, 2023, 05:14:21 AMHowever, in fairness to Tormek, their preferred method of knife honing has always been freehand honing in trained hands.
We should also mention "holding the knife at an angle not to hit the wheel with the handle", though in videos they mention keeping the spacer that comes with the machine. I am not sure why it is often branded the "preferred method", as it is the only one. In the same way the AngleMaster is (for a few more months ?) the Tormek preferred way of setting a knife angle, and what they said "didn't matter" will soon be a selling point.
The Tormek lacks a way of honing on a USB, most users of this forum know it is a shortcoming. I don't remember seeing any FVB owner mentioning they no longer use it because freehand honing is better/faster. And I'm sure Wolfgang could grind a very sharp edge freehand, but that doesn't make using a jig a less desirable option, or a crutch to be eliminated.
The Tormek is a superb machine, the service is top notch, but acknowledging how it can still be improved is IMO a better way of ensuring it remains so for years to come.
I had not seen the post about the MB-102 at the time, but it seems that (and I quote the official website) "guided honing using knife jigs" is now a thing at Tormek... I'd wager we'll see more about it during the advanced honing class :)
I would not wager against that..
I believe we are entering a most interesting period with Tormek.
Ken
Quote from: tgbto on September 04, 2023, 01:59:11 PMI had not seen the post about the MB-102 at the time, but it seems that (and I quote the official website) "guided honing using knife jigs" is now a thing at Tormek... I'd wager we'll see more about it during the advanced honing class :)
It's really something that's been needed and the fact that it was not supported basically meant I didn't even use the strop wheel. Setting the apex is the step of sharpening that is most influenced by a high degree of precision in angle control. The shaping step of sharpening is not really required to have a high precision as long as you raise a burr along the entire length.
Of course, the way the Tormek was designed gives you high precision in shaping and low precision in apexing. This is a serious oversight and it appears that they have fixed this. The other error is not having a good way to grind on the wheel with the jig/support combo with the edge trailing (ET). This is a problem of the past now also. I can actually see a good reason for myself to use ET for SG-250, even.
+1 Colvin FVB
Granted, relative newbie here, but now 2-ish years in (solely knife/axe/spear/harpoon/arrowhead etc sharpening), and I had thought before the first one even arrived the most sensible approach was T8, then aT8 custom for each additional wheel didn't want change (turned out couldn't, easily).
But after started using I immediately realized was wrong... also simply must have another T8 custom dedicated for honing... enter the T8 Black... the seemingly obvious choice for the one machine to run dry/not get banged up, for the next 50 years... beautifully perfect. Everybody know they want one... but yes it always a matter of justification somehow isnit it.
We all have different needs/wants and we're all just learning as we go, right Ken? "Replacement" knife jigs, now nother new adjustable angle jig, plus new multi base/fvb coming too... Seems like Tormek not mind "the metrics" associated with all us Knife Sharpening nuts. No offense whatsoever to chisels, however. I simply chose to start with an ulu in a brand new, bent axe jig; my chisels won't run away.
It didn't sound lame at all Jim! Personally, I would just dampen it and use a jig/"bar", however you can, tohelp keep whatever angle consistent; I sure do, whenever possible. Keep the diamond wheel and enjoy your Black! I sure have been. Danny, I agree with your much of your thinking here. But II really could use a few more of the "old" knife jigs too! For me, it simply seemed like keeping the machines identical would be the least recurring work.
My first thought with my T8 Black was to use it lightly, trying to "preserve the collectible value". I soon abandoned that plan. The Tormek is designed to be a working machine, not a shelf princess. My present plan is to use it as a dedicated machine set up for my woodturning tools with either my SB-250 or DF-250 and the composite honing wheel. I certainly won't be around in fifty years. I believe a reasonable program to maintain its value will be good housekeeping including regular recommended regreasing of the nylon bushings and keeping it covered. The future owner will acquire a "carefully used" machine instead of a "mint condition" machine.
While some YouTubers recommend setting up multiple Tormek's, I have never seen Tormek recommend having multiple machines. Nor have I seen Tormek recommend having multiple knife jigs. I am not saying that multiple machines or jigs will not increase efficiency for larger volume sharpening, only that this is not a strategy used by Tormek to sell more equipment. I believe that Torgny Jansson must have been a thrifty man, conscious of his customers' money. Supporting my belief is the Tormek tradition of supplying parts for very old machines. There are many machines still in regular service which are over twenty years old.
In my opinion, the new jigs and accessories represent Tormek's commitment to ongoing innovation. No one is forced to keep up with the "latest and greatest". I hope and believe that this tradition of innovation will continue.
ken
Quote from: Ken S on September 10, 2023, 04:25:59 AMMy first thought with my T8 Black was to use it lightly, trying to "preserve the collectible value". I soon abandoned that plan. The Tormek is designed to be a working machine, not a shelf princess. My present plan is to use it as a dedicated machine set up for my woodturning tools with either my SB-250 or DF-250 and the composite honing wheel. I certainly won't be around in fifty years. I believe a reasonable program to maintain its value will be good housekeeping including regular recommended regreasing of the nylon bushings and keeping it covered. The future owner will acquire a "carefully used" machine instead of a "mint condition" machine.
While some YouTubers recommend setting up multiple Tormek's, I have never seen Tormek recommend having multiple machines. Nor have I seen Tormek recommend having multiple knife jigs. I am not saying that multiple machines or jigs will not increase efficiency for larger volume sharpening, only that this is not a strategy used by Tormek to sell more equipment. I believe that Torgny Jansson must have been a thrifty man, conscious of his customers' money. Supporting my belief is the Tormek tradition of supplying parts for very old machines. There are many machines still in regular service which are over twenty years old.
In my opinion, the new jigs and accessories represent Tormek's commitment to ongoing innovation. No one is forced to keep up with the "latest and greatest". I hope and believe that this tradition of innovation will continue.
ken
How often do they recommend regreasing the shaft on the T8? I've been meaning to do this to mine as I've had it now for about a year and while it hasn't been run extremely high hours it has been used well.
Once a year is the standard recommendation.
Ken
Quote from: tgbto on August 10, 2023, 02:01:08 PMQuote from: Dan on August 10, 2023, 01:53:56 PMQuote from: aquataur on August 10, 2023, 01:14:48 PMI also made a FVB which works perfectly although I still couldn't get enough space for honing knives at precise angles. I find the Grinding wheel is still in the way.
This is why one should keep the spacer that comes with a Tormek, or buy/build one. A piece of 20mm PVC pipe cut at the proper width (50mm ?) works a charm. This way you can replace the grinding wheel with the spacer when honing long knives.
I normally prefer not to recommend third party accessories on the forum. However, I will make an exception in this case. Schleifjunkies sells a spacer designed by Alex which is the Mercedes of spacers. It is machined of delrin and much thicker than the originals. It is a joy to use. Tormek chooses not to make spacers available as spare parts. Here is a link:
https://schleifjunkies.de/en/product/spacer-for-drive-shaft-
from-alex/
Ken
Quote from: Dan on August 10, 2023, 02:44:12 PMMy separate honing wheel for any one interested. if the photo posting works!
Dan,
if you are monitoring this thread...
I finally got around to do an almost identical thing.
I made my own wheel. I did not like the way Schleifjunkies made the rollover.
The body is made of 30mm birch plywood (or beech, can´t remember), leather belt was bought and glued with fast curing and waterproof wood glue. This is a proven method for glueing Tolex. I spared the last centimeters out and finalized those with contact glue. The wheel is directional because of the crossover. As you can see, the meat side is outside.
On the picture, the wheel is virgin.
The holding bracket is made of cross-braced hardwood. Mounting is done with rampa inserts in case it turns out that the position needs to be optimized.
From a financial perspective, it is not worth to d.i.y., no way.
Note that I disabled the dry wheel part.
I am going to score another one of those machines (they are useless otherwise) and set up my felt wheel.
It is total luxury to not have to remove wheels all the time, because you ain´t never get them running as steady as they were before without a rigmarole.
Aquateur,
Well done. It makes such a difference for knife sharpening, I never use the Tormek honing side for knives now. It is so convenient, quick and accurate to just set the distance to the grinding wheel and the honing wheel using Calcapp.
I did consider making a wheel too but really the price for a quality ready made wheel from Shleifjunkies was excellent (as was the service too) compared to doing it all myself. I did, of course, have to fashion a suitable support for the USB and that was enough work already.
Danny
Yes indeed, making a wheel is a luxury.
The wheel from Hanns is absolutely competitive (apart from the fact that he is the only one who sells such a thing to my knowing ;) ) and top notch.
Despite the fact that I got the specs as tight as possible (using generic tools), there is always a hair of play on the bore and the thing inevitably wobbles.
I observed the same thing with most grinding wheels. I believe it is not so easy to get a bore done to very tight specs, maybe the material shrinks or whatever.
This is why most sources for dry wheels sell them with bigger bores, say 32mm. It is a breeze to have a very tight fitting insert made on a 3D printer.
Maybe Tormek and all aftermarket guys should consider this.
But back to the wooden wheel. I did the usual fandango and re-opened the wheel, spun it and tightened it again - in vain.
Finally I got a piece of wood and gave the wheel a slight kick when the peak came round, and after two or three trials, it runs quiet. I will never open it again ;)
I also observed that comparably large flanges don´t help much for centering - to my astonishment.
Maybe blotters would?
Quote from: jimwillsher on August 04, 2023, 07:01:15 PM... and I am struggling to get knives really sharp.
I am sharpening to 15 degrees, and that seems okay. But when I use the composite wheel I must be doing it wrong.
Basic questions. Should I use the tool jig or hold freehand? And should I have the knife flat on the wheel to remove the burr or should I try to also place it at 15 degrees, which is really hard when handholding.
Looks Jim already got answers (15 degree while honing and precission via FVB) for his problem but there can be more problems that prevents from having "really sharp".
For example: Jim got Black so was using diamond wheel 600 and natural tendency with new machine is to try cheap knives first, just in case :) But diamonds do not work well with soft steel - instead of sharpening diamonds tear off parts of metal so nice edge is not forming and no sharpness in progress.
Dimonds need period of breaking before getting it's own default grit and are more coarse before that. I'm not sure in what unit Tormek names dimonds - grit, mesh, microns or EU/JP/US standard but "if you want just one grit then take 600" ("...get 1000 in Japan" :) ) do not work for good sharpness, IMO. So 600 with 2000 honing can be not ideal, especially on unprofiled knives.
And is there "really sharp" standard ? Tomato slicing perfection is usually good indicator of sharpness :) But Tormek have grit progression like: black stone 220, DC 360, SG ~220 - ~1000 (but ~600 natural ?), DF 600, DE 1000, compound honing 2000, leather honing 3000 and JS 4000. So 8000 is missing for "razor sharp". And 8k is usually max for good cutting edge, 10k and 16k can have problems with starting slice on tomatoes :)
I personally like compound honing (2000) becouse it allows to sharpen more then SG or diamonds but it is less then traditional leather can do. Not to mention JS.
HTH