(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/RPM.JPG)
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/RPM_02.JPG)
You've heard that CBN and diamond wheels grind better than stone wheels, but that is given the pressure on the blade is the same. Since pressure on CBN and diamond wheels is to be less than on the stone wheel, to see their grinding advantage we need higher RPM.
Generally speaking, with the evolution from stone toCBN and diamond wheels that dissipate heat from grinding very well, the Tormek RPM could be increased to 250 RPM. You will not want that much speed in precision grinding of delicate blades, but for grinding bevels on grossly dull knives and tools or reprofiling you'd love it. So if this ever is going to happen, it better be done with a removable RPM-increasing insert that the user can put on the motor spindle when he needs more intensive grinding.
Clever, Wootz!!!
For those of us who don't happen to live in metricland, a one inch length of plastic water pipe, 5/8" Outside Diameter; 7/16" Inside Diameter also works. If you don't happen to have an odd piece at home, any hardware store will carry it. Some stores may even have it in shorter lengths.
Ken
Neat idea. Do you have any slippage occur between the tube and the shaft?
Elden, my piece of plastic water pipe doesn't seem to slip.
Ken
Last week a professional sharpener from Europe, who already has several Tormeks, wrote to me that he is looking at a clone only because it runs at 125 RPM, to speed up his sharpening. I must have been thinking about this till the last night I saw this solution in my night dream, actually :)
No slippage of the insert, and no spillage of the water at this speed. In the T7 I could insert a 2.5 mm bushing that increases RPM to near 150, but the T8 takes maximum a 2mm insert.
CORRECTION - there is slippage when the blade is pressed against the wheel. The insert must be fixed on the motor spindle to work. Not as simple as it seemed initially.
Very clever!
In South Korea, Tormek T8 runs at 112 RPM.
https://youtu.be/LoaWuhudtis
So if I do it, T8 will run at 156 RPM.
Oddly enough, I was wondering about this idea just the other day prompted, I think by the 150 RPM limit on the standard 250mm wheel.
Apart from the danger of unacceptable water spillage and spray, is bearing wear likely to be accelerated? so far as I know, the nylon bushes are not available from Tormek on their own (they can, of course, be shop-made if a lathe is available).
The working prototype:
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/overclocker2.JPG)
Sleeve 1.5mm thick
Inner diameter 11mm
Outer diameter 14mm
Length:
Tormek-7 28mm
Tormek-8 32mm
One Threaded hole M4
Socket set screw M4
Set screw length: Totmek-8 max 4mm; Tormek-7 - any.
Allen key 2mm
My coarse wheel Tormek now runs overclocked to 130 RPM.
... before you ask, we are too busy at the moment to make them for others, maybe in January next year. Check with your local steelworks shop if they can make one for you.
Quote from: ega on October 18, 2019, 12:24:54 PM
Oddly enough, I was wondering about this idea just the other day prompted, I think by the 150 RPM limit on the standard 250mm wheel.
Apart from the danger of unacceptable water spillage and spray, is bearing wear likely to be accelerated? so far as I know, the nylon bushes are not available from Tormek on their own (they can, of course, be shop-made if a lathe is available).
Ega,
Here is a link to Advanced Machinery, the primary source of Tormek parts in the US. The part number should be the same with any Tormek dealer which handles parts. Remember that you need two of them.
https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/products/16-nylon-bearing
Depending on your work volume, the possible extra bushing wear with higher speed might be made up in higher productivity.
Ken
Ken S
Thank you for the useful link to the parts breakdown.
I should have said that, so far as I am aware, the nylon bushes are not available on their own in the UK
Because, no doubt, of the size of the US market I sense that Tormek users are better served there than here. The existence of this forum must also help in that direction.
I should be glad to be corrected on this: where do UK users get their individual spare parts?
I would suggest either contacting support (support@tormek.se). You might also ask your local reseller or the UK agent. Here is the link:
https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/resellers/
Ken
Ken S:
Thanks again.
The UK importer/reseller is part of a group which includes my local tool store; I will ask them next time I am there.
Stig and I discussed the speed increase. Stig has reservations about the higher speed. Many years ago, Tormek made a specialized machine, the model 4000. (This was the ancestor machine of the T2, and the original machine to use the US-400, which evolved into the US-430).) Tormek used a larger sleeve on the motor shaft. Then and now, the idea is appealing in theory. Tormek abandoned the larger sleeve because increasing the pressure of the SG-250 grinding wheel proved more effective.
Tormek found that 90 to 100 rpm was the most effective. Beyond that there was trouble with the machine throwing water.
I think we should explore the speed increase carefully.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on November 19, 2019, 05:50:19 PM
...
Tormek abandoned the larger sleeve because increasing the pressure of the SG-250 grinding wheel proved more effective.
...
Ken
Hmmm.... what has changed..... ???
Quote from: wootz on October 17, 2019, 01:12:29 AM
...
You've heard that CBN and diamond wheels grind better than stone wheels, but that is given the pressure on the blade is the same. Since pressure on CBN and diamond wheels is to be less than on the stone wheel, to see their grinding advantage we need higher RPM.
...
::)
Actually, my SG-250 is in 222mm (diameter). I have lost about 6meter/min of grinding distance respect original size of 250mm.
Would be interesting a little increase of speed from now on... dont you think?
Quote from: wootz on November 18, 2019, 03:44:58 AM
The working prototype:
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/overclocker2.JPG)
Sleeve 1.5mm thick
Inner diameter 11mm
Outer diameter 14mm
Length:
Tormek-7 28mm
Tormek-8 32mm
One Threaded hole M4
Socket set screw M4
Set screw length: Totmek-8 max 4mm; Tormek-7 - any.
Allen key 2mm
My coarse wheel Tormek now runs overclocked to 130 RPM.
... before you ask, we are too busy at the moment to make them for others, maybe in January next year. Check with your local steelworks shop if they can make one for you.
I see on YouTube variations of this approach to speed up Tormek RPM:
Using epoxy (12 years of knife sharpening on the same T-7)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzqyIMPMQhQ&t=118 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzqyIMPMQhQ&t=118)
Using cloth tape (in German)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kfVllwWjzI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kfVllwWjzI)
Using cloth tape and an elastic tube (in German)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DiHBg8c9r4&t=920s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DiHBg8c9r4&t=920s)
Put blue painters tape on mine... been almost 6 months now? Still works great.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4093.0;attach=4350)
(Thought I posted this somewhere... here's what I posted on FB)...
QuoteI tried this when KnifeGrinders came out with his "speed it up" video... since I didn't have anything around to try like he showed...
https://youtu.be/6qY_HqzqXsM
However, both duct tape (the tape like you used) and electrical tape failed for me. Worked short term but for some reason, after a while, the tape started to slide around.
Blue painters tape was my solution... has held up now for over a couple of months without issue. (See pic).
Also, no need to make it so complicated. I just threaded the tape on by hand, rotating the drive wheel (by manually turning the stone), and letting the tape feed on. The drive wheel compresses the tape as it goes on, and you can easily see when to stop. No need to remove the drive wheel for this or measure anything... it's pretty easy to tell when to stop, just leave some room for the motor to move. Takes about a minute. (Keep it Simple...).
Definitely makes a difference!!
Late to the party.
I have a T4 (which was a gift that started me on the way to knife sharpening rehab).
The T4 appears to have a different drive wheel set up.
I am looking to try some upgrades, to include a felt wheel (instead of the stock leather wheel) to run at the lower speed than a buffer.
Or-to add a second wheel using the contour wheel shaft.
Any one have experience with upgrading a T4?
If it comes to it, I could get a T8, but I have a healthy investment in T4 wheels,
Would they work on a T8?
Thanks
Scotty,
You will run out of money before you run out of ways to upgrade your T4. You can upgrade many things on your T4. Whether or not you really need these will depend on your needs and desires.
Starting with the felt buffer wheel, I use an eight inch felt wheel with my T4. I debated whether to purchase a hard or rock hard density. I made the wrong choice and went with the hard grade. Go with rock hard. Think outside the box. I mount mine on the grinding wheel side of the shaft. EZYlock makes it quick and easy to change wheels.
Think you are limited to the SG and SJ-200, which are all most of us need? Think again. If you have money which you really must spend, here are some suggestions:
Tormek sells two diamond wheels which fit the T4, the DWC-200 and DWF-200. These cut very well, although Tormek recommends only recommends using them dry. The DWC-200 cuts noticeably faster than the SG-200.
D-Way Tools sells CBN wheels which can be used wet with an anti corrosion additive like Honerite Gold. You will need one of the steel reducing bushings from D-Way. These bushings can be used with either the T4 or T8. They also work with felt or Norton 3X wheels and make a very nice replacement spacer if you have misplaced the one which came with your Tormek.
Norton 3X wheels in 80 and 46 grit put the Turbo into your T4. At only $50US each, they offer a lot of firepower for not much money. They require some mounting bushing modification (not a big deal).
All of the Tormek jigs and accessories, including the Work Station, are compatible with the T4. So is the KG VFB. You can easily grow your $400 T4 into a $3000 sharpening system.
Or, you can go far just using the Tormek (which includes the T4) as intended.
Ken
ps The T4 wheels work with the T8 as well as a T8 wheel worn to 200mm, however, they work better as designed with a T4.
Thanks.
Super informative.
I saw a mod where a chap from NZ adapted his profiled leather wheel shaft to run a second stone wheel.
I am going to try the same to run the rock hard felt wheel that is inbound.
I actually have 2 CBN (600 & 1000) that I modified to fit the T4.
I plan on running them with a Honerite solution.
Apparently the felt wheel should be run on a Tormek speed machine as the slow speed buffer/grinders (2100rpm) are OK for paper wheels but too fast for felt.
I have been looking at a T2 for farmers market sharpening events as it seem to be a Jack of All Trades kind of machine.
I probably over think this whole thing and am prone to keep looking for a better way.
Any one had any luck with increasing the speed on a T4?
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the development of the Tormek AWT (Advanced Water Trough) nearly ten years ago. The lipis substantially larger than the older water trough. Surely this would almost eliminate the extra spillage issue from the speed boost.
I have not read about any results from Tormek testing to see if the increased speed caused any extra wear on the rubber drive wheel. That would be interesting.
Ken
Quote from: wootz on April 07, 2020, 03:27:27 AM
Quote from: wootz on November 18, 2019, 03:44:58 AM
The working prototype:
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/overclocker2.JPG)
Sleeve 1.5mm thick
Inner diameter 11mm
Outer diameter 14mm
Length:
Tormek-7 28mm
Tormek-8 32mm
One Threaded hole M4
Socket set screw M4
Set screw length: Totmek-8 max 4mm; Tormek-7 - any.
Allen key 2mm
My coarse wheel Tormek now runs overclocked to 130 RPM.
... before you ask, we are too busy at the moment to make them for others, maybe in January next year. Check with your local steelworks shop if they can make one for you.
I see on YouTube variations of this approach to speed up Tormek RPM:
Using epoxy (12 years of knife sharpening on the same T-7)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzqyIMPMQhQ&t=118 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzqyIMPMQhQ&t=118)
Using cloth tape (in German)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kfVllwWjzI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kfVllwWjzI)
Using cloth tape and an elastic tube (in German)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DiHBg8c9r4&t=920s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DiHBg8c9r4&t=920s)
Looks like this speeder-upper is now available from Wootz. However, since Tormek does not endorse speeding up their machines, I can only say buy it to look at and not to use 😉.
Quote from: Scotty on May 01, 2020, 05:41:02 PM
Any one had any luck with increasing the speed on a T4?
Scotty,
Do you realize that the T4 already runs at 120 rpm, as opposed to the 90 to 100 rpm of the larger models?
Josu,
I think it would be worth experimenting for you, especially considering your wheel diameter. I would try the short piece of water pipe I mentioned on page one. You should be able to find a short piece for free or at nominal cost. I also like CB's idea of the cloth tape. I think the KG adaptor is probably the best permanent solution, although either of these no or low cost solutions would let you decide if you wanted to proceed.
We have research to do with this. I don't know if the extra pressure on the rubber drive wheel would eventually cause premature wear or not. That could be easily monitored by removing the leather honing wheel for inspection.
The other possible issue would be water spillage. For almost forty years, Tormeks had smaller troughs. My first T7 originally had one of the smaller troughs. The design was essentially the same as the design used on the T4. Later T7s and all T8s use a water trough with a larger lip area. We need to do some testing to see how much water actually spills.
With the blue tape, the thickness can be controlled by varying the number of layers, much like the grit can be varied with the stone grader, the "600 grit" approximate middle grit.
Ken
I decided that the best way to do research was to purchase one. I did so today. I will post my thoughts after it arrives and I have a chance to use it.
Ken
Hi all - I am brand new to this forum, but extremely impressed with all the great information and inspiration ;-)
I just increased the speed of my old Tormek SuperGrind 2000 from 91 rpm to 111 rpm by simply using the outer sleeve of a piece of electrical installation wire (what we here call 5x1.5 mm2). I realize that installation wire is probably different country-to-country, but at least this worked a charm for me here in Denmark. The sleeve fits very snugly over the Tormek drive shaft - no slipping whatsoever. A whopping cost of app. 10 cent :)
peter
Quote from: Ken S on May 01, 2020, 05:15:33 PM
Scotty,
You will run out of money before you run out of ways to upgrade your T4. You can upgrade many things on your T4. Whether or not you really need these will depend on your needs and desires.
Starting with the felt buffer wheel, I use an eight inch felt wheel with my T4. I debated whether to purchase a hard or rock hard density. I made the wrong choice and went with the hard grade. Go with rock hard. Think outside the box. I mount mine on the grinding wheel side of the shaft. EZYlock makes it quick and easy to change wheels.
Scotty, the speed increaser should also work with the T4.
Ken
Think you are limited to the SG and SJ-200, which are all most of us need? Think again. If you have money which you really must spend, here are some suggestions:
Tormek sells two diamond wheels which fit the T4, the DWC-200 and DWF-200. These cut very well, although Tormek recommends only recommends using them dry. The DWC-200 cuts noticeably faster than the SG-200.
D-Way Tools sells CBN wheels which can be used wet with an anti corrosion additive like Honerite Gold. You will need one of the steel reducing bushings from D-Way. These bushings can be used with either the T4 or T8. They also work with felt or Norton 3X wheels and make a very nice replacement spacer if you have misplaced the one which came with your Tormek.
Norton 3X wheels in 80 and 46 grit put the Turbo into your T4. At only $50US each, they offer a lot of firepower for not much money. They require some mounting bushing modification (not a big deal).
All of the Tormek jigs and accessories, including the Work Station, are compatible with the T4. So is the KG VFB. You can easily grow your $400 T4 into a $3000 sharpening system.
Or, you can go far just using the Tormek (which includes the T4) as intended.
Ken
ps The T4 wheels work with the T8 as well as a T8 wheel worn to 200mm, however, they work better as designed with a T4.