I've spent some time watching the Jeff Farris video and looking on the internet and came away very confused about the type of tools and the various grinds. I am a novice turner and will initially be focused on spindle turning. I have a PM 90 lathe and some existing tools. I separated the tools into major categories of gouges, skews, parting tools, scrapers and who knows :). The biggest area of confusion for me right now is the various types of gouges and grinds. In my mind I have categorized gouge types as Spindle and bowl. Within spindle I have roughing, standard and detail - the difference being the grind.
Of the gouges I have (6 total) 2 are identified as spindle gouges - the others are a question mark to me. I think a bowl gouge has a much deeper flute than a spindle gouge but some of mine are hard to tell. I'm attaching some pictures. I think all of them are spindle gouges but I may be mistaken?
Any thoughts? Once I know what I have we can discuss grinds
Thanks
Rick
They all look like spindle gouges to me, too, with the possible exception of the second picture. Since you are just starting out as a turner, pick a gouge and shape/sharpen it to the standard profile as shown in the Tormek manual - 2-65-A. Notice that those settings are for standard profile spindle and bowl gouges. The bottom gouge in your pictures looks like a version of a spindle roughing gouge, so sharpen it as one. Spindle and bowl gouges can be used for spindles and bowls, with the exception of any gouge that has a flat tang instead of a round shank - those are for spindle use only. A flat tang is not strong enough and can break when used on a bowl, possibly causing injury.
If you are in the USA, check here to see if you can find a local club. The members there will be able to provide lots of help. https://www.woodturner.org/page/Chapters (https://www.woodturner.org/page/Chapters)
Be careful, woodturning is quite addicting.
Mike
Rick,
I catalogued a lot of information that ma be useful. It's at http://www.SharpeningHandbook.info/
Kind regards,
Rich
All spindle gouges, and a mix of fingernail and standard grind. This is a good thing for starting out, number them and keep notes as you experiment with different grind setup's. You can then compare them in use to find your perfect recipe. Word of caution, at least one of them is the poor quality type given away with cheap lathes, the metal is inferior so only compare immediately after sharpening.
TT - I'm curious whixh is the low quality steel - I think I know but not sure.
As far as grinds go - there is lots of terminology for spindle gouges - standard, fingernail, detail, roughing. I need to get a better understanding of this but I think
Roughing is a simple bevel with no wings - this provides more meat at the bevel for square to round turning (not sure if this is referred to as standard?)
Fingernail - the sides of the flutes are swept back to allow better access to spindle details. there are varying degrees of the swept back wings
Detail - just a more extreme version of fingernail
Rick
Quote from: RichColvin on November 11, 2019, 02:38:10 AM
Rick,
I catalogued a lot of information that ma be useful. It's at http://www.SharpeningHandbook.info/
Kind regards,
Rich
Rich 0=- thanks - what a ton of good information
Rick
I've attached some pictures of the existing grinds with some annotations of what I think they are. The first 4 all have tangs and from what I have read they should never be used on bowls. The last two are round bar and theoretically could be used on spindles or bowls. As I said above I am not particularly interested in bowls at this point but wanted to be sure I am understanding the concepts and terminology. I also included what I "think" the grind is and generally what type of work they would be used for. Please feel free to comment/discuss what I have gotten right/wrong. For example - what I am calling a roughing gouge could likely be used for some initial level of detail but as the need arises to get into close spaces the fingernail type grind becomes necessary because of the swept back flutes reducing/eliminating interference?
Quote from: Rick_B on November 11, 2019, 02:58:46 PM
TT - I'm curious whixh is the low quality steel - I think I know but not sure.
It really is hard to tell from pictures, you will know because 5 minutes use after sharpening it will give poor cuts! but I think the first and last ones are the poor steel ones, often made from a flat that is pressed into the curved shape of a gouge, rather than milled, and often from steel that just won't hold an edge for long. I bought some when learning to sharpen it was much more fun grinding away cheap metal and learning on those, they cut fine for a few minutes, but just don't hold for long.
Key difference between a spindle gouge and a spindle roughing gouge is the tang, if the section going into the handle is not round it is a spindle roughing gouge. and as such must never be used on the face of a piece of wood or inside a bowl / hollow form only ever use on external spindle work (for roughing down square stock to round)
A spindle gouge or bowl gouge is milled out of round bar so it has an un-milled round section going into the handle.
Standard grind is literally set the angle (usually 45°) and roll the bevel exactly as you would the roughing gouge, except you roll a couple of degrees extra which just knocks off the top corners. exaggerate that and you have the fingernail profile which really requires a jig to keep consistent though some do it freehand (I do on some favourites that are so worn they just won't fit in the jig anymore!)
Many old school turners shun the fingernail profile, though it is in common use these days. The key thing is that your grind MUST give a slightly convex profile to the side wings, if it's concave it becomes a hook tool which you don't want near a piece of wood spinning at 1000rpm!
A detail gouge is just a smaller diameter one usually ¼" with a shallow flute that gives a longer bevel.
Depending on many factors e.g. your height the lathe height in comparison and even the size and type of wood the guide angle of 45° may not be the right angle, it can be anywhere between 40 to 50° ish. that suits you. Don't ignore good advice on angles for things but do be sure that they work for you and not afraid to modify if they don't. I recently found out that I have been sharpening my parting tools at a non spec angle for about 10 years, so long that I couldn't remember what it should be! I re-profiled my 6mm parting tool to 30° specifically for a cut I did on lace bobbins, over time my thinner ones evolved into the same angle, all worked perfectly fine for me. Then someone asked what they were supposed to be, I knew it wasn't what I used but could not for the life of me remember what the standard was (20 or 25° depending on manufacturer)
TT - that's a lot of information. I have 4 gouges that have tangs (I think) - a craftsman and 3 buck brothers. Based on your info they are all roughing gouges. I get thta they should not be used on bowl interiors but wouldn't the grind allow them tp be used on spindles for some level of detail work versus just roughing?
Rick
There have been a couple of accidents in the UK where a catch led to the flat tang "springing" leading to bigger catch and bad outcomes. So the rule here for public demo or teaching is they should only be used for safe down the line roughing. Not saying that is exactly how they are used in my workshop. But in public I obey the rules...
I think as long as it's a good brand and you are sensible with it there us little to no risk. Some of the cheap tools I have seen though I fully understand the risk, no ferals, poor quality wood handles, and connections of 1/2 or so between wood and metal. Any flexing can go from annoying to dangerous very quickly.
So my advice to a new turner is don't use them except flat for turning stock to round (I.e. dont roll beads), my advice to an experienced turner is shit has happened, probably on cheap tools but be sure of what you have and make your own handles!
Actually my advice to new turners is make your own handles too, nothing more satisfying to make than something you hold daily.
Several years ago, I wanted to upgrade from my 3/4" carbon gouge to a larger hss roughing gouge. I purchased a pair of Sorby roughing gouges, a 1 1/4" and a 3/4". The 3/4" was bent. I surmised a previous owner had tried to use it with a bowl blank. Straightening it was surprisingly easy, but my conscience and brain finally prevailed. I purchased a new unhandled 3/4" roughing gouge and switched. Safety should always be job one.
For the record, I agree with TT's recommendation to turn your own handles.
Ken
This morning I did a little practice on the standard grind (square grind) gouges using the svs-50. That went pretty well.
Then I was going to try a finger grind using the svd-186. Picture of Grind 4 above was the gouge I was going to use. It had a label from years ago indicating jig setting 2, projection 55 and hole B. These settings were based on the older vd-185. I set everything up based on these parameters using the new SVD-186. When I visually looked at the fit of the existing bevel to the stone - it was way off. The rear of the bevel was way off the stone - I would have to change the jig setting to zero to get even close. Is there something I am missing in terms of set up? I"m assuming something went south when this was initially sharpened. I would like to get back to a more standard grind but it seems there would be a lot of metal removal required. I do have a bench grinder Tormek set up - do I need to use that to reshape?
Thanks
Rick
The settings are the same on the SVD-185 and 186. (They both use the same TTS-100 setting tool and instruction book. Incidentally, assuming "Thompson" is Doug Thompson of Ohio, Thompson tools are quality. The Buck name has always enjoyed a good reputation, although the older Buck tools are high carbon steel.
Ken
It's possible that the previous sharpener did not have the stop ring all the way up the shaft. Or, the settings on the SVD-185 were continuous, not discrete like the SVD-186, and were subject to eyeball error.
Mike
Quote from: AKMike on November 12, 2019, 11:26:07 PM
It's possible that the previous sharpener did not have the stop ring all the way up the shaft. Or, the settings on the SVD-185 were continuous, not discrete like the SVD-186, and were subject to eyeball error.
Mike
Mike -previous turner was me :) so it ios not only possible but likely that errors were made.
I would like to get the gouge back to the standard tormek settings - is the best approach to simply set the values and start on the tormek wheel or use a bench grinder first? I'm concerned about overheating on the bech grinder.
Rick
If you need to reshape, use your high speed grinder setup, unless you have a lot of spare time. If you know your gouge is high speed steel, grind away, but if you're not sure, grind lightly and cool the steel frequently. If your high speed grinder has CBN or diamond wheels and you aren't sure what kind of steel is in the gouge, don't use the high speed grinder.
Mike
I was able to get the gouge reshaped to the tormek recommended settings of JS 2, Protrusion 55 and hole b for the USB. It was slow so I used my slow speed dry bench grinder with AO wheels. That worked but it requried lots of starting and stopping to colld the chisel - maybe there is a way to cool it with water without having to take the jig off the USB. It was definitely faster than the tormek wheel. I finished up the shaping on the tormek and then sharpened and honed. There is no indication on the buck brothers chisel if it is high carbon or HSS and I bought them used many years ago so I donLt know the age of it.
So now I need to replicate a Doug Thompson grind on the Tormek. Based on his website he uses a wolverine jig and the nose angle is 40 degrees. I couldn't find any "standard" tormek recommended grinds that produced these results. I did find that a JS of 4, Protrusion of 55 and using hole b to set the USB I could visually replicate the bevel. Then I was able to verify, using the bele coloring method, that the color was removed uniformly from the entire length of the bevel. So do these setting make sense - I don't want to start grinding and ruon the chisel. BTW - This is a 3/8" detail spindle gouge. I also have a 3/8" thompson spindle gouge - not sure of the difference. It appears to me that the detail gouge has longer wings which I think is the result of how far the chisel is turned when grinding?
Thanks
Rick
Rick,
Here is a link to Doug Thompson's website. I purchased one of his detail gouges and a handle. He is quite knowledgeable and a nice guy. Contact him if you have any questions about your Thompson tools.
http://thompsonlathetools.com/
Ken
I agree Ken - Doug is very knowledgeable and helpful. Based on his website he is a proponent of the wolverine vari jig so I'm not sure he could offer any advice on how toreplicate his grind with a Tormek. I am however, going to ask him that question.
What settings do you use on your thompson detail gouge - something completely different than the as received grind?
Rick
You are correct; Doug uses the vari grind. In my sharpening research, I often consult knowledgeable sharpening sources who use equipment other than Tormek. Like you, I respect Doug's extensive knowledge.
My Thompson detail gouge was designed by the late King Heiple. I met King at a Conover Workshop. I purchased the detail gouge several years ago, but have only recently set up my lathe. It cuts very well. I have not used it enough to sharpen it.
When I describe myself as a beginning turner, I am not just being modest.
Ken
Sounds like we are in the same boat :)
So when your detail gouge needs sharpening what would your approach be if using a Tormek. Maybe its too soon for you to answer that bdepending on whether you like the existing grind pr would want to change it.
Rick
There are many 'custom' grinds doing the rounds, some are a great improvement on the ones we have been using Elsworth, Fingernail, negative rake, all are fairly new and have made improvements, though talk to some of the old style turners and they will not be using these new fangled weird profiles!
By virtue of the fact every pro turner is hand grinding to speed up / improve the flow on the jobs they are turning out and will every now and then come up with a profile that gets shared around or incorporated into a production tool, the jig makers will always be chasing the latest fashion profiles.
When my tools are worn down to the nub, I get adventurous and hand sharpen them to some very strange angles, or replicate the latest fashion profiles, then IF I like the way they cut I see if I can get close to a recipe using the jigs I have. Some are part jig part freehand, others we want the jig makers official or otherwise to get cracking and invent something for us.
I gotten through gouges, skews and parting tools. Are they perfect - no far from it but they are better than they were. I still need to do a couple of round nose scrapes and decide what I am going to do t=wit the Thompson tools I have.
Here's a tool that I don't know the name of - anybody seen something like this? Its probably something pretty common to most
Thanks
Rick
I have a tool like that that is ground to match the angle of the dovetail jaws of my chucks. Makes it easy to put the proper tenon on a woodturning piece. If you use it for that, cut with one edge at a time. If you try to cut with both edges at once, you are risking a catch.
Mike
Could be a miss-ground skew, but it looks like a wide parting tool, 45° instead of the more usual 25°, if it is surplus to requirements then Mike's suggestion is excellent, I have one it comes in very handy. Though I would take the bevels to 30° or less before skewing it for the dovetail, much easier to maintain.
Rick,
It's called a Spear Point tool. It is a scraper, & Mike's use is quite common.
Sharpening instructions are at http://www.sharpeninghandbook.info/WW-SpearPoint.html
Kind regards,
Rich
Thanks guys - I'm not anticipating any use in the immediate future so I think I will let it go as is for now.
Rick
So after about 8 turning tools and a dozen or so chisels I feel like I accomplished my original goal refamiliarizing myself with Tormek sharpening. A couple of areas that still need refinement
1. It seems that using the regrading stone MAY be causing the stone to get to the point of needing truing much faster. Is this my imagination or perhaps a technique issue.
2. When truing - I have noticed that the wheel seems to be humped in the middle - that is the high spot is in the middle. It generally takes 3 or 4 passes, advancing the micro adjust 1/3 of a number at a time to get contact across the entire width. I have also noticed that the wheel seems out of round whenever I true it - that is you can hear intermittent contact when initally truing until a few passes are completed. I have used the zip tie modification to avoid any up/down movement of the diamond carrier.
3. I have noticed the grading stone gets dished - when is it no longer useable? Dishing is occurring pretty rapidly - a new stone has evidence of dishing after about 10 uses
So what, if anything, am I doing wrong?
Thanks
Rick
Rick,
I have not found Tormek to be very clear on these issues. The following are my observations:
1) I think the stone grader concept is a great idea. I think the original idea was to modify the new SG-250 wheel to be able to cut like the finer grit natural stones mined locally. I suspect that you are correct in thinking that a worn stone grader will cause the grinding wheel to need more frequent truing. I look at stone graders the same way I look at grinding wheels, as long term consumables which will eventually need to be replaced. this is not something any company's marketing department wants to emphasize.
2)The hump or valley may depend on which tools you are sharpening. A gouge may place a valley in the center. Keep going with light controlled passes to keep your wheel true.
3) Several of us have been trying diamond stones for grading. I think that is the direction we will be heading, especially with the SB.
I don't think you are doing anything wrong; the right path keeps evolving.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on November 16, 2019, 07:58:05 PM
Rick,
I have not found Tormek to be very clear on these issues. The following are my observations:
1) I think the stone grader concept is a great idea. I think the original idea was to modify the new SG-250 wheel to be able to cut like the finer grit natural stones mined locally. I suspect that you are correct in thinking that a worn stone grader will cause the grinding wheel to need more frequent truing. I look at stone graders the same way I look at grinding wheels, as long term consumables which will eventually need to be replaced. this is not something any company's marketing department wants to emphasize.
2)The hump or valley may depend on which tools you are sharpening. A gouge may place a valley in the center. Keep going with light controlled passes to keep your wheel true.
3) Several of us have been trying diamond stones for grading. I think that is the direction we will be heading, especially with the SB.
I don't think you are doing anything wrong; the right path keeps evolving.
Ken
Ken - my concern with #1 above is that the grading stone seems to show wear (dishing) almost immediately - is that typical or is somethng wrong. When watching videos - it appears to be such an easy task butt Ilm starting to wonder if it is all marketing hype?
The secnd concern I have is the suspected stone out of roundness. This seems evident as the truing is being done - based on sound - it appears initialy that there is contact/no contact as the wheel rotates. I'm wondering if this may be related to some other problem - drive shaft or bearings. I can't feel any up/down movement of the wheel.
Rick
I use my stone grader diagonally on the wheel, and rotate it frequently which avoids it getting dished. it is being run against a grind stone, only takes a fraction of extra weight on one end or the other to start dishing it on the edge of the stone. By keeping the grader diagonal and rotating it this helps keep the grader flat.
For the other part put a straight edge behind the Tormek about 3mm gap to the wheel, shine a light down and watch you should be able to see if the rotation is true.
Earlier in this topic a question arose about whether a tool is carbon or high speed steel. Using your high speed grinder, a quick spark testwill tell the story. Here is a link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing
A quick search will show several videos.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on November 19, 2019, 12:02:16 PM
Earlier in this topic a question arose about whether a tool is carbon or high speed steel. Using your high speed grinder, a quick spark testwill tell the story. Here is a link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing
A quick search will show several videos.
Ken
And it is helpful to keep samples of known composition by the grinder for comparison purposes.
Good idea, Ega.
Ken