"The Tormek was not created as a knife-sharpening equipment. Knives are kind of an afterthought."
I recently read this comment on our forum. While I partially agree with this, I also have reservations about it. It is true that Torgny's original idea fifty years ago was to create a sharpening tool for his father who was a woodworker. I don't know exactly when Tormek users began sharpening knives.
While developing the kenjig technique, I learned that the SVM knife jigs were modified in 1992 to have shorter handles. I don't know when the first Tormek knife jigs were introduced. However, by 1992, thirty two years ago, they were modified. I do not consider thirty two years "an afterthought". In those thirty two years we have seen several versions of the SVM jigs and an entirely new series of KJ jigs.
Ken
Not meaning to be rude, disrespectful or anything, but I'm not sure any of that matters. It may be true that the original concept for Tormek was not knives and I do not get how, when or why there were modifications to the knife jig matters hoot. The brilliance of the Tormek is that is supremely excellent platform for a wide range of sharpening applications. The original concept of sharpening edged tools on a rotating cylinder of stone was not Tormek's and it may not be known who, when or where to credit it. However, I suspect that it was NOT for wood turners...
I'll go get some coffee now... ;D
The Tormek 4000...
T-4000.jpg
...proved the other versions were not really knife sharpeners. ;)
I would love to come across a used Tormek T4000, that gap between the two wheels makes a world of difference for knife sharpening. It seems to me though that if you could buy the stainless frame and an extended stainless EZYlock mainshaft as parts from Tormek then you could probably build one yourself using a T7 for the other doner parts...... maybe ! 😎
Please Tormek, make a small batch of T4000's I'm sure they would sell like hotcakes, I would definitely buy one instantly ! 👍 🙏
Did the 4000 prove that the other versions were not really knife sharpeners?
If so, how?
Looking at the photo, there is an AWT-250 water trough.I am not sure if this was part of the original T4000. It is possible; however, it was also included with T7s starting some time around 2010 and has always been part of the T8.
(My original T7 from August 2009 had the original, smaller water trough. After it was stolen, the replacement I purchased had the AWT-250.)
The SG-250 and leather honing wheel shown were also standard issue on all T7s and now on the T8 Original.
The US-400 support bar shown was never standard issue with the T8, although an improved version, the US-430, has been available as an optional extra for several years.(The US-430 has the same longer bar. the two legs are 50mm longer for sharpenng cleavers.)
The frame of the T4000 was stainless steel and longer, both desirable features.
However, the machined zinc frames and EZYlock shafts of today's Tormeks have essentially eliminated the advantage of stainless and provide more precise alignment. Using a FVB and US-430, I can easily sharpen and hone my longest knife, a ten inch chef's knife, even with my T4.
Tormek has developed some remarkable jigs for woodworking and turning tools. However, there are no specialty machines for these tools. By contrast, the Tormek lineup now includes two specialty machines for different segments of the knife sharpening market. Tormek has added the self centering KJ knife jigs and a new setting jig is in the development pipeline.
Tormek put heavy research and development in the T2 for the restaurant market. This included working with the Swedish Culinary Team and customers in Sweden before announcing it globally. making the frame longer would not have been a major issue for the design team. I have to believe the design team had sound technical reasons for not using a longer frame. The T2 has a knife jig specially designed for it and comes with a diamond wheel and composite honing wheel, both Tormek's latest innovations. I have no doubt that Tormek will eventually introduce modifications and relacement models for the zt2, as they have for their entire lineup. I have already seen this with my T7 and most of the jigs and accessories I originally purchased. The old ones still work as well as ever; the new ones just work better.
Ken
Quote from: Andy1066 on February 18, 2024, 10:14:10 AMI would love to come across a used Tormek T4000...
Not sure where you are in the world but I noticed one for sale in France at the moment.
https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipements_pour_restaurants_hotels/2490215248.htm
equipped with a new coarse diamond wheel and two SVM knife jigs. They are asking 800 euros for it.
It is on the other side of France from me. I have no connection, BTW. I just saw it a few days ago and your post reminded me.
Danny
I'm in the middle of the UK Danny (Derbyshire) but it does look in really good condition with very little use by the looks of it !
Andy,
If you are able to procure it, please post your usage thoughts,
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on February 18, 2024, 10:44:50 AMTormek has developed some remarkable jigs for woodworking and turning tools. However, there are no specialty machines for these tools. By contrast, the Tormek lineup now includes two specialty machines for different segments of the knife sharpening market.
Yes, exactly that. There is no need for specialty machines for woodworking tools because that's exactly what the Tormek T-8 and T-4 are. There is a need for "knives-only" machines because the Tormek T-8/T-4 is not intended to quickly sharpen a random knife. And even those knives-only machines will require a lengthy initial sharpening to set the angle.
Don't take me wrong though, I love the Tormek and the edges they produce on my knives. It just takes much longer than a belt sander, and customers who will be able to tell both apart are a minority. Plus being able to quickly resharpen a knife means that it has already been sharpened once on the Tormek at a known angle.
My opinion is still that, for an knives-only sharpening business targeting everyday cooks who want sharp knives at a reasonable cost, the Tormek is not the best suited tool (and the T-1 and T-2 aren't either, as discussed at length in several other posts). For a versatile sharpening business targeting customers willing to pay a premium for scary sharp knives, I think the T-8 is the weapon of choice.
TGB,
I agree that the T8 is "the weapon of choice" for heavy duty use and versatility.
That stated, I also believe that recent introductions of the 200mm diamond wheels, FVBs (especially the MB-102), and the US-430 extended support bar have somewhat lessened that gap.
I also believe that the "blue machines" (as stated in the onlineclass on comparing the Tormek lineup) are primarily "the woodworking machines". Please note that I say "primarily" and not "exclusively".
Although the situation is already changing, in my opinion jig development for knives has also lagged behind woodworking and wood turning jigs. Recently we now have the self centering KJ knife jigs. In development, Tormek has a new knife setting jig which is much more advanced than the Anglemaster for knives. (This was introduced on the forum perhaps a year ago.)
Setting the bevel angle on knives reminds me of flattening and polishing the back on chisels. Both can be laborious and time consuming. However, both are one time procedures. Also, with setting bevel angles, there are always the options of matching the existing angles using the black marker and changing the angle gradually over several sharpening sessions. If used by Tormek's intentions, the home cook with a T1 might have a longer session with the first sharpening followed by very quick resharpening sessions. A restaurant staff sharpener would have a similar possibly longer initial sharpening session followed by faster touch up resharpenings.
Any Tormek is certainly not the low cost coice for sharpening.
I don't know the marketing statistics. I believe the vast majority of Tormek users are home users, as opposed to professional sharpeners. I compare these users to home woodworkers who prefer Lie-Nielsen tools to well worn Stanley tools. In the hands of a skilled worker, a properly tuned century old Stanley tool will come very close to a Lie-Nielsen. i suspect most premium tool users know this, but are happy to use more expensive premium tools. I sharpened my basement workshop tools for decades with oil and water stones and could do so today. I just prefer ouse my less laborious Tormek.
Ken
Yes ?
So for someone such as the OP on the thread where I mentioned the T-8 not being primarily designed for their use, who does only knives, who does that for a living as opposed to most of us home users, for whom each knife will essentially be a bevel-setting job or a sharpie-trick job, and who probably won't chase sub-80 BESS, we agree a Tormek is not really the best-suited tool ?
No.
I do not agree with that at all. You state:
"Don't take me wrong though, I love the Tormek and the edges they produce on my knives. It just takes much longer than a belt sander, and customers who will be able to tell both apart are a minority."
If most of your customers feel that way, you have not educated them. I had the same problem with some customers years ago with my custom processing photographic darkroom business. Most people don't know the difference between an archivally processed fiber print and a mass produced drug store print. I would politely explain the difference to them. At that point, they would either appreciate quality work or they wouldn't. I was happy to serve those who did.
Part of the education process could be sharpening one of their knives at no charge and explaining the process to them. The process should be made as efficient as possible without cutting back on the quality.
Ken
"
Quote from: Ken S on February 20, 2024, 12:49:42 AMI had the same problem with some customers years ago with my custom processing photographic darkroom business
Exactly. The Tormek is ideal for the knife sharpening equivalent of your custom processing darkroom, whether as a hobby or as a business.
To serve those who aren't ready to pay the premium that goes with that kind of standards, and who might not be ready/willing to get "educated" a faster solution is key.
Quote from: Ken S on February 18, 2024, 10:44:50 AMDid the 4000 prove that the other versions were not really knife sharpeners?
If so, how?
Looking at the photo, there is an AWT-250 water trough.I am not sure if this was part of the original T4000. It is possible; however, it was also included with T7s starting some time around 2010 and has always been part of the T8.
(My original T7 from August 2009 had the original, smaller water trough. After it was stolen, the replacement I purchased had the AWT-250.)
The SG-250 and leather honing wheel shown were also standard issue on all T7s and now on the T8 Original.
The US-400 support bar shown was never standard issue with the T8, although an improved version, the US-430, has been available as an optional extra for several years.(The US-430 has the same longer bar. the two legs are 50mm longer for sharpenng cleavers.)
The frame of the T4000 was stainless steel and longer, both desirable features.
However, the machined zinc frames and EZYlock shafts of today's Tormeks have essentially eliminated the advantage of stainless and provide more precise alignment. Using a FVB and US-430, I can easily sharpen and hone my longest knife, a ten inch chef's knife, even with my T4.
Tormek has developed some remarkable jigs for woodworking and turning tools. However, there are no specialty machines for these tools. By contrast, the Tormek lineup now includes two specialty machines for different segments of the knife sharpening market. Tormek has added the self centering KJ knife jigs and a new setting jig is in the development pipeline.
Tormek put heavy research and development in the T2 for the restaurant market. This included working with the Swedish Culinary Team and customers in Sweden before announcing it globally. making the frame longer would not have been a major issue for the design team. I have to believe the design team had sound technical reasons for not using a longer frame. The T2 has a knife jig specially designed for it and comes with a diamond wheel and composite honing wheel, both Tormek's latest innovations. I have no doubt that Tormek will eventually introduce modifications and relacement models for the zt2, as they have for their entire lineup. I have already seen this with my T7 and most of the jigs and accessories I originally purchased. The old ones still work as well as ever; the new ones just work better.
Ken
For starters it was labeled as a "knife grinder"...
IMG_0128.jpg
... and while the T-4000 does share parts that the T-8 does... the design itself (that you dismiss in a single sentence) is what makes the difference. Mainly, the added distance between wheels means you don't have to add/remove wheels to get knives to fit, or angle knives to avoid hitting the opposite wheel, etc. Two vertical USB supports add versatility (although even that part would need tweaking.) Your comparison is akin to saying a car is as good as a pickup for hauling supplies... since they both share a lot of the same features.
It would be interesting to learn why it was discontinued. I suspect that it was ahead of its time... many years ago, based on the old Yahoo Tormek group, knives were seldom mentioned. It's what led one member to write a post way back in 2005 (https://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/womack.htm), to inspire more Tormek users to use it to sharpen knives. ;)
As for the T-2, I'm pretty sure it was primarily designed for ease of use, and for use in the commercial kitchen, not for a professional knife sharpener. It's more of a maintenance sharpener, vs what the T-4 or T-8 is capable of.
Quote from: cbwx34 on February 20, 2024, 04:15:46 PMIt would be interesting to learn why it was discontinued.
Maybe, maybe because even without the hassle of removing the wheel to hone, without having to buy a supplemental USB, etc. etc., only few knife-only sharpeners would buy a machine that required much more time to set an edge than a belt sander. Even if it could produce hair-splitting edges. So making it a profitable product even at (or more so because of) a high price point would be a challenge. I don't know if this is true, but the link given by @Dan mentions an initial price of 1500 EUR (1600+ USD) with the DC stone.
I think the "crazy sharp" knife sharpeners market is much tinier than the "push cut tomato" one. So having only one lineup for very sharp edges, even if sharpening knives requires a bit of contorsion, seems a more sensible approach. And for 1600+ bucks one could easily buy a standard T-8 for grinding and custom one for honing. AMHIK :grin:
Quote from: Ken S on February 17, 2024, 08:58:48 AM"The Tormek was not created as a knife-sharpening equipment. Knives are kind of an afterthought."
While this may or may not be true, it is true that the primary motivation was to create a machine for easily sharpening woodworking tools. The concept of a natural grinding wheel rotating in a water bath is as old as the hills and goes back to antiquity, possibly to the bronze or iron age. There were even powered machines pre Tormek. These were mostly general purpose machines and designed for sharpening in general, not specifically "wood working" tools. The Tormek was not a new concept but, like most good inventions, an evolution on the wet stone sharpening wheel. Whether or not it was intended to sharpen edges on non-woodworking tools it was certainly based on a universal natural stone grinder.
Further to the point there is a sticker on the 1982 model, SA250, illustrating the direction of grind and hone showing a picture of a kinife being sharpened. So from very early on the idea that it could be used to sharpen knives was clear.
John,
Unfortunately, anyone reading what you quote from me out of context might think it reflected my opinion. I was just stating that I had read this on the forum. I would hope that any on our members reading that statement would be diligent enough to learn the full story.
Ken
Quote from: tgbto on February 20, 2024, 04:42:17 PMQuote from: cbwx34 on February 20, 2024, 04:15:46 PMIt would be interesting to learn why it was discontinued.
Maybe, maybe because even without the hassle of removing the wheel to hone, without having to buy a supplemental USB, etc. etc., only few knife-only sharpeners would buy a machine that required much more time to set an edge than a belt sander. Even if it could produce hair-splitting edges. So making it a profitable product even at (or more so because of) a high price point would be a challenge. I don't know if this is true, but the link given by @Dan mentions an initial price of 1500 EUR (1600+ USD) with the DC stone.
I think the "crazy sharp" knife sharpeners market is much tinier than the "push cut tomato" one. So having only one lineup for very sharp edges, even if sharpening knives requires a bit of contorsion, seems a more sensible approach. And for 1600+ bucks one could easily buy a standard T-8 for grinding and custom one for honing. AMHIK :grin:
There is a lot which we do not know. Why was the T4000 discontinued? From the design time of the T4000 and the present, what advances and changes have occurred?
The stainless steel frame of the T4000 certainly looks impressive. At the time of its design, rust was a problem. While this was in part caused by the materialsof the day, the worst cases were also due to carelessness by the users.
With today's machined zinc housings and improved coatings, stainless no longer offers such a great advantage.
Tormek specifically designed the T2 for use by restaurant staff as opposed to professional sharpeners. The T2 is designed to be used and kept in a restaurant. Part of the design is the convenience of not having to deal with water, ACC, or honing paste. Another part is not having to fiddle with jigs. The T2 is designed to maintain sharpness. Very dull knives slow efficiency and put extra physical stress on the user. A well managed professional kitchen would have its knives regularly sharpened and woul not have nearly the problems f abuse encountered by he professional sharpener.
If professional kitchen users had the chance f side by side demonstrations with the T4000 and the T2, ow would they choose?
I realize this is a group of sharpeners, not restaurant staff. Several factors should be included in the conversation. An important factor is the Tormek philosophy of sharpening. Until the introduction of the T2 and T1, this has been exclusively water cooled. Minimal steel removed is a Tormek hallmark. Jig controlled grinding. And, the preferred honing technique is hand held. A key factor is "no Tormek left behind".
Another real world factor is how to price work done. A dedicated professional sharpener should make a reasonable business profit. This can be complicated by what the customer is willing to pay. A sharpener is not a charity. Some abused, neglected knives re not worth the expense of sharpening. On the other hand, the sharpener's technique and workflow should be efficient and geared toward a realistic amount of sharpness.
Ken
Ken, all of those are very fair points, but if you take another look at the quote which is the subject of this post and seems to have ruffled a few feathers, it is not :
"The Tormek is bad at sharpening knives"
I wouldn't own two if that was the case. Yet I'm not a professional sharpener, I don't care how much time goes into getting the edge I want on a $200 knife and whether my investment is paid for. The quote is rather
QuoteThe Tormek was not created as a knife-sharpening equipment. Knives are kind of an afterthought.
That looks like a fact to me, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong if the Tormek was indeed created as a knife sharpening equipment. It seems to me though that it was created with woodworking tools in mind.
Is that so bad a thing to say that it justifies its own thread going into the T1, T2, charity, darkroom and the way knives were sharpened by the romans ?
Does it mean the Tormek is a bad knife sharpener ? Certainly not. To me it only means that its wider usage domain requires that a few compromises be made for knife sharpening, like accepting that increased precision and superior heat management come at the expense of throughput and portability.
TGB,
You and I are in agreement on the important areas. Let's just say that although the original Tormek was primarily designed to sharpen woodworking tools, it also functions very well for sharpening knives. Innovation is ongoing. I believe that the next year or two will see some major changes in knife sharpenng.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on February 21, 2024, 03:07:12 AMUnfortunately, anyone reading what you quote from me out of context might think it reflected my opinion
Sorry, that was not my intent, hence the quotes. I was making an observation on the design of the Tormek that it in and of its very nature was a general purpose machine evolved from previous powered and unpowered machines.