Hi
I'm new here! I'm interested in making knives and straight razors and sharpening them. From what I have read the T3 might serve my purpose as a hobby machine. My question is - will the standard grindstone be okay for metal forming (carbon tool steel) as well as sharpening/honing? Or would I need a lower grit stone for this?
Thanks!
The T3 will not stand up to continuos use as would be found in actually making a tool. It is not rated for continuous use as the T7 is. You can run the T7 24/7 but the T3 is for 30 minute cycles and then cool off time. I may be wrong on the run time of the T3 but it is still not up to your needs.
Thanks for the input, Jeff!
Anyone else care to give me the benefit of their experiences? I'd very much appreciate it.
I agree with Jeff. Your requirements are that of a professional and so you will need piece of kit that can live up to it. I had a 1200 (T3) and found it was good but quite cramped - knife handle hindered by the honing wheel (and vice versa) in some freehand situations. I think you would quickly regret buying a T3. For people coming from high speed dry grinders, the Tormeks feel slow going when it comes to metal removal/shaping, the 50/50 duty cycle on the T3 will just hinder you further.
If you plan to grind a lot, the cost of the T7 grindstone is also cheaper per usable cubic inch (or cubic centimeter). The T3 grindstone is smaller and narrower but not proportionally cheaper.
On another note, I had a chef's knife that I used to chop lobster. I nicked a half dime piece of metal off the edge chopping a big lobster for fun. It took me a whole afternoon to regrind the blade. Based on this experience, I would guess that if I used the T7 to grind a primary bevel on a square blank piece of metal, it will take some time.
Now I use a Gransfor axe for lobsters.
I must say whilst never wanting to put the dampers on anyone wishing to enter the Tormek world, I also agree that using the T any model to shape large metal blanks is gunna cost you time and blisters!
For major shaping operations like you suggest you would be better off with something much more aggressive. The Tormek is excellent for occasional big shaping and then fast and fine sharpening. For example I re ground a finger nail gouge yesterday. New shape, probably took 20 minutes. Now to sharpen, it takes twenty seconds. But after the shaping my arms were aching, fingers a little worn etc. I'm not a big fan of dry grinders but for fast steel removal, that's the appropriate direction.
Rob
I have never used a T3, so I really can't comment either way.
Regarding shaping metal, I would use a belt grinder. Changing grits is easy. You need to exercise some care in not overheating the metal. A good and very inexpensive alternative would be several hand files. (different degrees of roughness). You may be surprised how quickly a good file works when used properly.
Ken
The T7 is not really a machine dedicated to the task of shaping metal, although it can be used for that purpose on occasion. I would imagine the T3 would be even worse.
As an example, consider the task of maintaining power mower blades. They require a lot of shaping when they've been abused, and it would be very time consuming to do that with the T7. I shape them on a dry grinder and then use the Tormek to sharpen them.
Herman,
You mentioned mower blades, you have a lot more patience than I do to be using the Tormek to sharpen them! Around here I have too many rocks to hit to consider taking time to use it, for some reason those rocks don't care whether that blade has seen a Tormek or not! An abrasive flap wheel on an angle grinder does a great job of polishing mower blades to a fine edge if a person wants them very sharp. I imagine if a person would check to see how sharp a mower blade is after mowing his yard once, that he would find that the "Tormek sharp" would be gone and just a normal sharp remained even though the blade contacted only grass.
Elden
Quote from: kb0rvo on February 06, 2013, 08:59:49 PM
I imagine if a person would check to see how sharp a mower blade is after mowing his yard once, that he would find that the "Tormek sharp" would be gone and just a normal sharp remained even though the blade contacted only grass.
We don't have many rocks around here. The blade remains sharp for several mowings. I can tell by looking at the tops of the blades of grass after mowing. They are ragged if the blade is not sharp, but a sharp blade will slice them off leaving a smooth cut.
Here's a thread on mower blade sharpening:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=930.msg2503#msg2503
Very interesting thread Herman. I might have to give it a try.
One of the difficulties with the T3 is lack of good information. Justin has worked with an earlier version of the T3. However, most of us use variations of the T7. I have only seen a demonstrator once at a tool fair. He was using only a T7.
Jeff, you did a lot of demo work over the years. Are the demo guys showing both the T7 and T3 now, or just the T7?
Ken
I agree re the lack of information. It's almost like the T3 is the "guilty secret" of Tormek that everyone is so embarrassed about they don't want to be associated with :-)
Probably conceived in response to competitive pressure from copying manufacturers, but no one wants to go there. Thus no one really invests in developing collateral around it
Rob
Quote from: Ken S on February 11, 2013, 11:27:26 AM
One of the difficulties with the T3 is lack of good information. Justin has worked with an earlier version of the T3. However, most of us use variations of the T7. I have only seen a demonstrator once at a tool fair. He was using only a T7.
Jeff, you did a lot of demo work over the years. Are the demo guys showing both the T7 and T3 now, or just the T7?
Ken
That depends on the market. The T3 is very popular in certain European markets. Some people buy a T3, find they love the system and graduate up to a T7, while some others are completely satisfied with the T3.
The differences are simple. The T3 frame is plastic. The motor is smaller and not continuous-duty rated. The grindstone is approximately half the total volume of the T7 grindstone (being both smaller in diameter and thickness).
The T3 was not (nor its predecessor the 1600) on the U.S. market until 2007 or 2008, which is why it hasn't gained a lot of traction here. I don't have a lot to say about it, because its introduction to the U.S. market coincided with my taking a less direct part in Tormek marketing.
Thanks for all the replies guys!
I guess I'll need to build a dedicated hollow grinding two-wheel set-up and perhaps use the Tormek for sharpening purposes only.
Trevor,
Welcome to the forum. You post a very good question. When considering whether to choose a T7 or T3, it is important to factor in the cost of the stone grader and diamond wheel dresser. These are included in the initial cost of the T7. They are not with the T3. They are really not "optional extras". The necessity of occasionally truing the wheel or removing glazing is just a fact of life with grinding. It would be possible to get by without a stone grader. However, not being able to switch stone grits with the Tormek would necessitate purchasing another form of finer grit abrasive.
For a hobbyist woodworker sharpening planes and chisels, I'm sure the T3 would be a good machine. Adding in the cost of the diamond dresser and stone grader, I'm not convinced it is really a better bargain.
I would not use a Tormek alone for making knives. My first suggestion for you would be to purchase a copy of Ron Hock's sharpening book. Do a google on "Ron Hock". Ron has a very informative website. I consider his book a must have part of every sharpener's library. While you are at it, look into Leonard Lee's book and DVD, as well at Tom Lie-Nielsen's book.
We don't expect to turn with only one chisel. We don't expect one hammer to do it all. Even a highly tuned jack plane with multiple blades is no real substitute for individual tools. We should not expect the Tormek to be the tool for all seasons. It's great for many kinds of sharpening and minor shaping. Expecting it to handle major shaping on a regular basis is like expecting your car to haul lumber.
Joel Moskowitz has written an excellent article on using a dry grinder more effectively. You should be able to find it with a google or on the Fine Woodworking site. I use a very coarse Norton 3X wheel on my old dry grinder. I once had to remove decades of mushrooming on some wood splitting wedges. With the mass of metal as a heat synch, I wasn't worried about overheating the metal. The coarse stone did the job in very acceptable time. If I did not have the Tormek, I would also dress the wheel with a crown (instead of flat) as recommended in the article.
For knife shaping and hollow grinding, I would use a belt grinder. Mine is an old Dayton factory grinder which I found in need of TLC for $25. For a nicer version, check out the Multitool on sharptoolsusa.
Do keep us posted.
Ken
Serious knife makers usually lust after one of these.
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/KMG_Belt_Grinder.html
I agree. For me, it's super easy to use it for more than 30 minutes! I would find the 30 minute duty cycle very problematic.
Two words, F Dick. Hollow grinding sharpeners.
Jeff, I'm sure the F Dick tools are professional quality. A quick google search shows them starting at about two grand. That kind of money would buy a T7, a Baldor dry grinder and a nice belt grinder.
Look at the Multitool on the sharptoolsusa site. Mounted on a good dry grinder, it should do the job at a much more hobby compatible price.
Ken
Do you think the T3 has an identity crisis?
For me at least, it's the old adage, "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap tools".
I'm not saying the T-3 is junk or anything, but...
Over the years I've learned that trying to save a few bucks when it comes to buying tools almost never pans out. They either break and then you need to buy them again, or they do kind of a crappy job or are limited in some way. Or worse, they screw up and damage or break what you are working on, like a cheapo wrench stripping a bolt head.
If it does not outright break, I end up hating using it cuz it's kind of crappy, and I always end up wishing I had sprung for the better one. And many times I end up doing just that, wasting the $$ I had spent on the first cheapo one..
Fine tools, on the other hand, bring happiness, joy and fulfilment with each use.
The tools in one's lilfe should bring happiness. :)
That's actually a staggeringly true statement that functions on many levels. A lot of people joke about it as a means to justify an expensive tool purchase. I have two specific examples to counter that, one of which is economic in nature and the other more philosophical.
The first is just as you say.....you buy cheap, it doesn't work you replace with the more costly one you should have got first time out. I've done that with table saw, Planar thicknesser (jointer/planar in the US) and bandsaw. The wasted cost on the cheapys was still over a thousand.
The second predicament is the issue of unhappiness. This is going to sound really eccentric and esoteric but....it's also true
You engineer your mood into the work you're doing! There it is. Lets deconstruct that a little. In order to produce top quality work you need to achieve a certain state of mind. It's akin to being in "the zone" for exercise folks. When you're in the zone you're sort of at one with the material, you're grooving with it. If the grain presents a problem when you're planing you change direction, or you stop and sharpen or go with a low angle plane, whatever, the point is you gel with the changing nature of the material. In turning if going uphill on a bowl outside (normal) still tears grain you might just sharpen then try down hill or a sheer scrape. Again your point of focus is at one with the material. It's a very dynamic thought process. The sense of presence is overwhelming, delightful even. You're so in the moment you don't hear minor distractions like being called for dinner etc!
It requires patience and a comfortable work environment. All decent craftsmen and mechanics, engineers I know are rather quiet reserved people, I think that quality zone thing helps to generate that over time. It's that feeling you get when you take a two thou shaving with a freshly sharpened plane.....total harmony between, material, tool and operator. It's what us blokes are really all in it for...that peace of mind.
The antithesis of that is the radio blaring as the 18 year old mechanic strips the threads on that crankcase screw!! Unlike my craftsman, he doesn't care, he has his mind on everything but the material, the filly in the hot pants, his pay-check, beer.....he has no patience and no quality. What happens? He engineers his mood or lack of care into the job, the poor quality environment and mind combine to thwart any chance of a decent outcome.
So in order to produce quality in the work, YOU need quality within you to begin with! The quality isn't already in the work, it comes from you. You can do things to improve your chances of reaching a quality approach, correct environment, not too cold, scuffed knuckles do not make for good moods. Avoid hunger or any other basic need. Be comfortable. I'm a big fan of space. I personally can't bear the shop all cluttered because it distracts my mind from remaining focused on the tools acting on the material. So before anything big I have a good tidy up. My goal is always to start the work as contented as I can be so I engineer " good" into the work and not "bad"
Looping back to the cheapys issue, if the tool simply isn't fit for purpose, it will just thwart you, no amount of good vibes can overcome it and the result can't possibly be good quality. That was what was behind my frustration with the planar knives....the original stone did not have the right qualities for the purpose. I think the reason I got so angry is partly I don't like to fail and partly Tormeks marketing has never "lied" to me before. This time it was misleading at best. Hopefully I will discover the opposite in respect of the blackstone.
So cheap tools, or incorrectly specified for the purpose are "gumption traps". You need all the gumption you can get when tackling tricky work. Quality, mood, care, respect, enthusiasm are almost synonyms in this context
So your post showed great wisdom and humility in my opinion.
Rob,
Yours was a wise utterance indeed.
I believe that of which you speak is Zen. Zen and the Art of the Tormek. :)
Or, "An ancient pond. A frog jumps in. Plop. Oh! The sound of water!"
Mark
Robert Pirsig is my favourite author :-)
A popular marketing strategy is to offer a low-cost option in a line of products that's just a bit more than half the cost its next-highest cousin. It allows the consumer to ponder the cost in steps. Let's see, $500 dollars is too much money for that home theater receiver. There's a cheaper one at $275 that seems more my style. I ponder it for a while until I realize that for just an additional $225 I can have the one I really want.
Don't get me started on marketing or it could be a long night :-)
One of the things I like about this forum is its honesty strong and marketing weak. I accept its original design was a commercial decision ie to provide support and value to facilitate the Tormek community. Happy customers buy more stuff, new prospects get vibed up and go through the price barrier to entry, I get all that.
The fundamental issue is the balance between problem solving with openness about the jigs and sheer product promotion. I think the balance is right here.
We're a community of end-users, so it's only right that we provide that balance. That's what we're here for.
And of course a wealth of knowledge and experience Herman. I'd love to tot up the man years of all contributors combined.....it would be thousands of man years of experience
So hear goes...
If you go to the members tab there are 73 pages of members at 30 records per page so that makes 2190 members
Assuming each member has an average 20 years wood working (and therefore sharpening) experience then:
2190 x 20 = 43,800 man years knowledge and experience is accessible through this one site
That's bound to be an exaggeration, but say its only half that, maybe only 1/10th? It's tons of creative solutions and different perspectives on Tormek related challenges.
Did the rest of you receive the emails from sharptoolsusa and advanced machinery today advertising the Multitool? .....Great timing; maybe someone does read this forum.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on February 27, 2013, 08:06:48 PM
Did the rest of you receive the emails from sharptoolsusa and advanced machinery today advertising the Multitool?
No, hopefully I can remain under the radar.
???
Interestingly, it had nothing to do with the forum. Hanns told me a couple weeks ago that he was going to put a bit more effort into the MultiTool.
Quote from: Ken S on February 27, 2013, 08:06:48 PM
Did the rest of you receive the emails from sharptoolsusa and advanced machinery today advertising the Multitool?
Yup. Caught my attention until I saw the price. I'm sure it'd be worth it if I had a need, and I know I'd use it if I had it, but there's nothing that jumps out at me and says, "I could do that if
only I had the Multitool".
I happened to visit my former local Tormek dealer last weekend. (I moved out of the area last summer.)
The dealer now has a new huge store facility (six or seven acres of store). For the first time I saw a T3 in their small Tormek display. The T3 was still in the box on a lower shelf, but at least it has made it to the shelf.
Ken
I saw one on display a few years ago at the store where I went to buy a new grindstone. It was on display next to the T7 and some other unit. Of the three the T7 was the most expensive and definitely the sturdiest.
I'd love to know what the numbers by market are for T3 vs T7 revenues?