Looks like Wootz is carrying some new products:
1) a 250mm x 50mm rock-hard felt wheel with diamond emulsion. Looks to be a bargain price, as I was quoted $55 USD for shipping from the US to Canada by another supplier.
2) a device that, "DISCLAIMER: This is not a Tormek part, and use has not been evaluated by Tormek. If your Tormek machine fails for whatever reason, telling that you used it with the "RPM increaser" may void the warranty.
Still no kangaroo strops. Perhaps Wootz should also start raising kangaroos? (Ok, just kidding).
That is very interesting and a little bit exciting. I'm very glad to see it. Nice that Wootz is providing a "package", particularly that it has a 12mm arbor bore. The price converts to about $146 US at current exchange rates. If this includes shipping from AU to the US, that is a good price.
DuroFelt (http://www.durofelt.com/image_38.html) is the only place I've found that offers a 2" wide x 10" rock hard felt wheel, but it has a 1" arbor bore. They do provide some bushings, but likely not an exact fit for 12mm and some futzing would be required. $150 US and would have some shipping.
Durofelt also offers a 1" wide x 10" rock hard felt wheel, for $71 US, which, for a more cost conscious person might be more attractive. I am using a 1" wide x 10" dia. rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond paste and really like it. I no longer use the leather honing wheel for knives, but my first stage of honing is the SJ wheel. It has a 1" arbor bore that I had to make an arbor bushing for and flange washers.
If Knife Grinders' price includes shipping, it is a better deal on several levels - total cost, OD diameter, bore ID, and included diamond spray.
Rick
Quote from: BeSharp on June 23, 2020, 04:41:50 PM
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2) a device that, "DISCLAIMER: This is not a Tormek part, and use has not been evaluated by Tormek. If your Tormek machine fails for whatever reason, telling that you used it with the "RPM increaser" may void the warranty.
...
Ah... the "speed 'er up" device. :)
I'm still rockin' the same piece of Blue Painter's Tape (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4093.msg30254#msg30254) that's in the picture! ;) :o
(Has held up way better than I expected. YMMV).p.s. Haven't tried this one (yet), but there's an interesting alternative to buying an entire felt wheel here (http://www.rpwoodwork.com/blog/2019/10/19/felt-honing-wheel-for-the-tormek/).
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 23, 2020, 06:07:21 PM...snip...
p.s. Haven't tried this one (yet), but there's an interesting alternative to buying an entire felt wheel here (http://www.rpwoodwork.com/blog/2019/10/19/felt-honing-wheel-for-the-tormek/).
Interesting alternative to a whole wheel. Checked it out. I do not mean to "trash" CB's idea, just a comparison and an "analysis".
One would need a 36"x36" sheet of felt to fit around the 8" leather wheel "bare" wheel. Even at the thinnest, that is $136, plus shipping (McMaster-Carr (https://www.mcmaster.com/felt) and click on "Hard Felt". And then there would be the adhesive and "gluing process". Seems like a toss up on cost/effort and one would only have an 8" honing wheel. Only way I see it as being better on cost is to get the 12"x12" piece of felt and "piece" it together around the 8" wheel ($20 plus shipping) and that would leave the wheel with three "joints", if that is any sort of an issue (probably not).
Still, it is a viable option, either way and allows one to proceed with a more "stock" honing system, one where the honing wheel stays on the machine and one doesn't have to switch out the grinding wheel to do the honing (although I always took off the grinding wheel to allow full access to the leather honing wheel, so that is moot, in my view).
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on June 23, 2020, 06:27:01 PM
...
Only way I see it as being better on cost is to get the 12"x12" piece of felt and "piece" it together around the 8" wheel ($20 plus shipping) and that would leave the wheel with three "joints", if that is any sort of an issue (probably not).
...
From reading it... that's what he did. ;)
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 23, 2020, 06:48:10 PM
Quote from: RickKrung on June 23, 2020, 06:27:01 PM
...
Only way I see it as being better on cost is to get the 12"x12" piece of felt and "piece" it together around the 8" wheel ($20 plus shipping) and that would leave the wheel with three "joints", if that is any sort of an issue (probably not).
...
From reading it... that's what he did. ;)
My Bad... I didn't read that far in it...
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on June 23, 2020, 06:50:16 PM
My Bad... I didn't read that far in it...
Rick
Cool that you both came to the same conclusion though... 8)
Thoughts on the new KG felt wheel:
I think the 12mm bore makes sense. Actually, the KG felt wheels will work with any Tormek. As planned, it will work with the T7 or T8. It will also work with the T4 or T2. Since the felt wheel works without water, the water trough can be left off, allowing the 250mm wheel to clear the frame.
I wanted to verify that the threaded end of the shaft was long enough for a 50mm thick wheel with no indentation to be secured. The T4 shaft measured 55mm beyond the spacer washer. I was doubtful, until I measured the same shaft area on my T8. It measured the same 55mm length. I am quite sure Wootz would have checked the felt wheel on his T8. No more doubt; it will work with the T4 or T2.
Choosing a T4 as a second Tormek for the felt wheel has some advantages: The shaft on the T4 revolves at 120 RPM, as compared with 100 RPM with the T8. That's a 20% speed increase, with no possibility of voiding the warranty.
Ken
You can save yourself a lot of money by making your own comparable wheels using 3/4" MDF particle board or 3/4" Melamine board which is used in cabinet making. Use a circle cutter jig to rough cut to a diameter of 255 mm then glue pieces together to make whatever thickness you desire. Rotate rough wheel on a wood lathe at 400 to 600 rpm and, while rotating, use an angle grinder to smooth and reduce the diameter to 250 mm. Drill a 12 mm (31/64") hole in center for mounting on Tormek. Dress with whatever honing, cutting or polishing compound is needed. I use one of these wheels, which is 3/4" thick with a raised rounded edge, for sharpening fluted or hollow edge knives. Some of my wheels are over 20 years old (used on 8" grinder running at 3,450 rpm) and they have not shown any appreciable wear. They hold the dressing compound perfectly. If you are using melamine, lightly grind away about 5 mm on the outside edge so there is no plastic that touches blades as you are honing.
The nice thing about these wheels, other than low cost, is they run perfectly true at low or high speeds. The same cannot be said for many felt wheels.
Quote from: Bryan D on June 24, 2020, 06:50:36 AM
You can save yourself a lot of money by making your own comparable wheels using 3/4" MDF particle board or 3/4" Melamine board which is used in cabinet making. Use a circle cutter jig to rough cut to a diameter of 255 mm then glue pieces together to make whatever thickness you desire. Rotate rough wheel on a wood lathe at 400 to 600 rpm and, while rotating, use an angle grinder to smooth and reduce the diameter to 250 mm. Drill a 12 mm (31/64") hole in center for mounting on Tormek. Dress with whatever honing, cutting or polishing compound is needed. I use one of these wheels, which is 3/4" thick with a raised rounded edge, for sharpening fluted or hollow edge knives. Some of my wheels are over 20 years old (used on 8" grinder running at 3,450 rpm) and they have not shown any appreciable wear. They hold the dressing compound perfectly. If you are using melamine, lightly grind away about 5 mm on the outside edge so there is no plastic that touches blades as you are honing.
The nice thing about these wheels, other than low cost, is they run perfectly true at low or high speeds. The same cannot be said for many felt wheels.
The argument to be made of course is that felt works better. ;) (And there is some validity to that).
I'm just not sure it needs to be made in a size only for the reason to fit on the Tormek? Guess one question would be... how much they wear down... so you get some use/longevity that way? Might be worth it, vs. having to remvoe and reglue strips on a wheel... depending on how long they last.
Quote from: Ken S on June 24, 2020, 03:16:47 AM
...
I wanted to verify that the threaded end of the shaft was long enough for a 50mm thick wheel with no indentation to be secured. The T4 shaft measured 55mm beyond the spacer washer. I was doubtful, until I measured the same shaft area on my T8. It measured the same 55mm length. I am quite sure Wootz would have checked the felt wheel on his T8. No more doubt; it will work with the T4 or T2.
...
Plus the fact that a (used) stone from a T-8 will fit... ;)
Quote from: Bryan D on June 24, 2020, 06:50:36 AM
You can save yourself a lot of money by making your own comparable wheels using 3/4" MDF particle board or 3/4" Melamine board which is used in cabinet making.
I've read somewhere that MDF could break off. So, one can make such wheels for their own use, but I think such possibility would discourage anyone from selling such items due to possible liabilitu.
In addition, Wootz has concluded that felt can hold diamond particles up to 10 microns. Might as well deal with one product which can carry a wide range of grits.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 24, 2020, 03:33:47 PM
Quote from: Ken S on June 24, 2020, 03:16:47 AM
...
I wanted to verify that the threaded end of the shaft was long enough for a 50mm thick wheel with no indentation to be secured. The T4 shaft measured 55mm beyond the spacer washer. I was doubtful, until I measured the same shaft area on my T8. It measured the same 55mm length. I am quite sure Wootz would have checked the felt wheel on his T8. No more doubt; it will work with the T4 or T2.
...
Plus the fact that a (used) stone from a T-8 will fit... ;)
CB, You are correct that a wheel from a T8 worn to 200mm will fit the T4. (This was a forum debate a while back. The "will fit" proponents won the debate.
Out of curiosity, I measured the recess amounts in the 200 mm and 250.. wheels. The 250mm wheels are recessed 2mm more than the 200mm wheels. That and plenty of thread length explains why my SG-250 fits on my T8. This has no practical value, as the SG-250 only fits with the water trough removed.
Ken
Quote from: BeSharp on June 24, 2020, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: Bryan D on June 24, 2020, 06:50:36 AM
You can save yourself a lot of money by making your own comparable wheels using 3/4" MDF particle board or 3/4" Melamine board which is used in cabinet making.
I've read somewhere that MDF could break off. So, one can make such wheels for their own use, but I think such possibility would discourage anyone from selling such items due to possible liabilitu.
In addition, Wootz has concluded that felt can hold diamond particles up to 10 microns. Might as well deal with one product which can carry a wide range of grits.
Besharp,
I don't mean to be critical or take sides in this. However, I don't think we have enough information to dismiss MDF wheels. If Wootz says that felt wheels can hold diamond particles up to 10 microns, I believe him. Wootz is an established sharpener and sharpening researcher. I do not recall a comparable sharpener establishing a micron size range for MDF.
I also don't know how large a micron is needed for real world sharpening. Do we need 10 microns? I ask this only because I don't know.
I am not comfortable with your statement that you read somewhere that MDF could break off. Maybe I watch too many television court room dramas. That statement sounds like it would be here say evidence from an unidentified source. You may actually be correct; I would just like some more supporting evidence and a good source person.
I have never used MDF for sharpening. I don't know how it might compare with felt. Costwise, MDF is very inexpensive. I could see using both materials. We are in an exciting time of expanding scope for the Tormek.
Ken
I read it somewhere whilst doing my sharpening research. It might have been on Blade Forums. It might have been by the inventor of the Razor Sharp paper wheels. As I can't recall exactly, that's why I worded what I said very carefully :). Otherwise I would have given the source.
That's also why I said it's probably OK if someone makes it and uses it themselves. But all commercial grinder wheels have a RPM rating. Has MDF ever been tested at high RPMs? Not that I'm aware of.
It's just my mechanical engineering training kicking in. Most people only ask, "will it work"? We are trained to ask, "It might work, but how might it fail"?
Points well made. Trained engineering minds have benefitted the forum.
Ken
You know that we've been using felt wheels in deburring/honing on Tormek for years, since 2016, checking the results with the sharpness tester.
For the best results, the felt must be rock-hard - if the felt density is just "hard", "firm" or "medium", it will round the edge and drop sharpness.
I am telling you this not to promote our rock-hard felt wheel, but to save your time and effort in experimenting with the felt on Tormek.
My first idea was to use a strip of felt glued to an MDF wheel, but when we tried flexing a rock-hard felt strip on the wheel, the strip broke. Maybe this is the reason why no one produces rock-hard felt strips - they are too dense and break on flexing.
In production of our rock-hard felt wheels, for precise centering of the 12mm arbor hole it is moulded, not drilled. QA checks that the wheel circumference is flat and square.
(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/felt_logo.jpg)
Testing video: https://youtu.be/-HBpsQn7frY (https://youtu.be/-HBpsQn7frY)
The price that you see on our website includes world-wide delivery.
***
We needed the "RPM-increaser" not only to grind faster, but to unleash the CBN and diamond wheels advantage.
You've heard that CBN and diamond wheels grind better than stone wheels, but that is given that the pressure on the blade is the same. Since the pressure on CBN and diamond wheels must be light, less than on the stone wheel, to see their grinding advantage we need higher RPM.
And it does "unleash" - video: https://youtu.be/c-q_AI0BD6A (https://youtu.be/c-q_AI0BD6A)
Initially, we also went the "tape on the motor shaft", but with the tape we cannot as easily decrease the RPM back when we need Tormek run slow for precision grinding.
With our device, we simply unscrew the set screw and remove it.
Unfortunately, we could not find stainless steel round bars of the right diameter, and every part must be turned to meet the specs. We have it done by CNC machining to keep the costs to the minimum. The 1st batch of 100 ea. is being made, and the price will become clear as it is ready for shipment.
***
We ship world-wide at the same flat rate, no matter which country our customers live, and this is my vision of fair go for everyone.
Quote from: wootz on June 25, 2020, 10:22:22 PM
You know that we've been using felt wheels in deburring/honing on Tormek for years, since 2016, checking the results with the sharpness tester.
For the best results, the felt must be rock-hard - if the felt density is just "hard", "firm" or "medium", it will round the edge and drop sharpness.
I am telling you this not to promote our rock-hard felt wheel, but to save your time and effort in experimenting with the felt on Tormek.
My first idea was to use a strip of felt glued to an MDF wheel, but when we tried flexing a rock-hard felt strip on the wheel, the strip broke. Maybe this is the reason why no one produces rock-hard felt strips - they are too dense and break on flexing.
In production of our rock-hard felt wheels, for precise centering of the 12mm arbor hole it is moulded, not drilled. QA checks that the wheel circumference is flat and square.
Testing video: https://youtu.be/-HBpsQn7frY (https://youtu.be/-HBpsQn7frY)
The price that you see on our website includes world-wide delivery.
***
We needed the "RPM-increaser" not only to grind faster, but to unleash the CBN and diamond wheels advantage.
You've heard that CBN and diamond wheels grind better than stone wheels, but that is given that the pressure on the blade is the same. Since the pressure on CBN and diamond wheels must be light, less than on the stone wheel, to see their grinding advantage we need higher RPM.
And it does "unleash" - video: https://youtu.be/c-q_AI0BD6A (https://youtu.be/c-q_AI0BD6A)
Initially, we also went the "tape on the motor shaft", but with the tape we cannot as easily decrease the RPM back when we need Tormek run slow for precision grinding.
With our device, we simply unscrew the set screw and remove it.
Unfortunately, we could not find stainless steel round bars of the right diameter, and every part must be turned to meet the specs. We have it done by CNC machining to keep the costs to the minimum. The 1st batch of 100 ea. is being made, and the price will become clear as it is ready for shipment.
***
We ship world-wide at the same flat rate, no matter which country our customers live, and this is my vision of fair go for everyone.
Good info.
What's an example of needing to remove the "RPM-increaser"? I haven't seen the need... and can't think of one where the faster Tormek needs to be slowed back down... it's still slower than most other methods. (I still think you should call it the "speeder upper"). ;)
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 26, 2020, 01:59:12 AM
What's an example of needing to remove the "RPM-increaser"? I haven't seen the need... and can't think of one where the faster Tormek needs to be slowed back down... it's still slower than most other methods. (I still think you should call it the "speeder upper"). ;)
We get nicer bevels by grinding at low RPM pocket knives, delicate folders, and complex edge shapes like recurve blades.
We get sharper and stronger edges by finishing the grinding on fine wheels at low RPM, thanks to the low grinding speed producing a smaller burr.
Looks like Knife Grinder's new rock hard felt wheel and second batch of CBN wheels are now available:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop.htm
IMO, nobody raises the bar as high, or as often as Wootz and Knifegrinders.
We're lucky to have him here, and his willingness to develop limited market ancillary products for the Tormek in order to provide new and/or better experiences while sharpening is deserving of much credit.
I use a T-4, so there is lots I can't use (like the felt wheel, and the new "speeder upper"), but the products and books I have purchased from Knifegrinders have made me a much better sharpener.
Quote from: Roger M. on July 08, 2020, 05:06:05 PM
IMO, nobody raises the bar as high, or as often as Wootz and Knifegrinders.
We're lucky to have him here, and his willingness to develop limited market ancillary products for the Tormek in order to provide new and/or better experiences while sharpening is deserving of much credit.
I use a T-4, so there is lots I can't use (like the felt wheel, and the new "speeder upper"), but the products and books I have purchased from Knifegrinders have made me a much better sharpener.
I agree, we are lucky.
But, you CAN avail yourself of a felt wheel that fits the T4 and you can make a bushing for speeding up you T4. There are two suppliers of 8" dia, 1" wide rock hard felt wheels. Both have 1" bores, but bushings can be made easily to adapt them to the 12mm Tormek shaft:
http://durofelt.com/image_38.html (http://durofelt.com/image_38.html)
https://supergrit.com/WoolFeltPolishingWheels (https://supergrit.com/WoolFeltPolishingWheels)
Also, it should be possible to make something to do the speeding up. CB has used tape, perhaps the blue painter's tape. I think you should be able to make a plastic bushing, maybe from Sch 40 PVC pipe, IF you can drill a hole tight enough to make it a firm press fit over the 12mm shaft. That would be somewhat long term, UNLESS you are able to drill and tap it for a set screw.
Wait, doesn't Knife Grinders offer the speeder-upper busing, stainless steel with set screw? Yes, they offer it, but it is in production and not available for another few weeks. http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop.htm (http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop.htm)
Rick
I ordered a felt wheel from Knife Grinders. The felt wheel has no indent, like the Tormek grinding wheels. The 50mm thick wheel with no indent looked like very few of the EZYlock threads made contact. Vadim, to his credit, realized the same thing and changed the thickness to 45mm for future orders. He refunded my payment and advised me of the problem.
Regarding the situation with the T4, I measured the shafts on my T4 and T8. The part of the shaft which holds the wheel is the same length on both. Also, for the felt wheel, the 250mm felt wheel will fit with the water trough removed. It's overkill if you are using the T4 for grinding. 200mm felt wheels are available.
Ken
RPM increaser is something I am looking at buying but cannot find this on the www.knifegrinders.com.au
Anybody know where I can find one of these?
Quote from: Thy Will Be Done on April 11, 2023, 01:57:29 PMRPM increaser is something I am looking at buying but cannot find this on the www.knifegrinders.com.au
Anybody know where I can find one of these?
Except for the few items in this post (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5023), (which note that it hasn't been updated in almost a year), I think Knifegrinders is pretty much out of business. There's a contact email in that post you might try.
Schleifjunkies (https://schleifjunkies.de/?lang=en) is the only one I can think of that sells some of these items.
I purchased a speed increaser several years ago from Knife Grinders. It works well. I also tried slipping a piece of 5/8" Outside Diameter plastic water pipe on the shaft with no locking screw. It also works very well. (friction fit) (I needed to drill out the Inside Diameter to a tiny bit over 12 mm.)
While drilling out the plastic pipe, make up several extra pieces in various lengths. I have found these useful for spacers and bushing reducers for grinding wheels.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on April 11, 2023, 04:01:25 PMI purchased a speed increaser several years ago from Knife Grinders. It works well. I also tried slipping a piece of 5/8" Outside Diameter plastic water pipe on the shaft with no locking screw. It also works very well. (friction fit) (I needed to drill out the Inside Diameter to a tiny bit over 12 mm.)
While drilling out the plastic pipe, make up several extra pieces in various lengths. I have found these useful for spacers and bushing reducers for grinding wheels.
Ken
Awesome, if you ever decide you don't need the KG RPM increaser then let me know and I'd buy it from you at a good price for you. I don't know that I'd want to make my own though, don't want to jimmy up my Tormek and ruin it. How does this affect the longevity of the machine anytime you increase RPM?
If you want a cheap way to try it... I did it with blue painters tape...
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4093.0;attach=4350)
... lasted a couple of years before it finally wore off.
p.s. No other tape I tried worked.
Quote from: Thy Will Be Done on April 12, 2023, 08:04:33 PMQuote from: Ken S on April 11, 2023, 04:01:25 PMI purchased a speed increaser several years ago from Knife Grinders. It works well. I also tried slipping a piece of 5/8" Outside Diameter plastic water pipe on the shaft with no locking screw. It also works very well. (friction fit) (I needed to drill out the Inside Diameter to a tiny bit over 12 mm.)
While drilling out the plastic pipe, make up several extra pieces in various lengths. I have found these useful for spacers and bushing reducers for grinding wheels.
Ken
Awesome, if you ever decide you don't need the KG RPM increaser then let me know and I'd buy it from you at a good price for you. I don't know that I'd want to make my own though, don't want to jimmy up my Tormek and ruin it. How does this affect the longevity of the machine anytime you increase RPM?
Otherwise a similar to the KG version can be found here:
https://schleifjunkies.de/en/product/speed-up-adapter-tormek-ready/
There is no magic in the "speed increaser". Surface Feet per Minute is merely the product of RPM x circumference. Adding the sleeve to the shaft increases the circumference. It does not effect the RPM of the motor.
I believe the T4000 had a larger motor shaft, either as standard or as an option.
Tormek could easily increase the diameter of the motor shaft. I suspect the reason they have not done that it to avoid more water spillage complaints due to the higher RPM.
I doubt using a speed increaser would ruin a Tormek.
Ken