Messages

Thanks jvh, looking forward to see these links, very helpful. I myself have been a bit obsessive with burr removal but I just wanted to say something about microscopes, I bought a 7 dollar scope on the recommendation of someone here and I dont think I will be looking any further. I tried to take a picture with my phone but it wont focus, the image itself looking through the Loupe is crystal and in focus. Ive run this knife along my SJ-250 about four times per side at the original angle and this loupe tells me it hasnt yet removed all the burr, its pretty clean though. I best not post a link but its a Kingmass 60x Loupe. I will leave it upto those that are thinking of buying a scope to decide if this is what they want to see. For anyone who wants to take nice pic this isnt for you, its not designed for that but its a great little handheld thing that I find comes in very handy.
Alan

Alan,

As a dedicated film photographer of many decades, accustomed to working with a 4x5 view camera, I have been dubious of cel phone cameras. In both film and digital, there is no shortage of mediocre work. However, your photograph is outstanding. I could not do any better with my expensive specialized Nikon close up equipment.

You are obviously a very competent photographer. I wish I knew the answer to your question. I don't, but I encourage you to keep asking.

Ken

Very high praise thank you Ken, I used to have a Panasonic G7 with a couple of grands worth of lenses but I never really used it much so I dabbled and sold it for my other other hobby, HiFi. About the only thing its taught me is I hate pictures that are not detailed and in focus, camera phones are so good now, if they have enough light they can really take good pictures with little effort as seen by my knife pic. To be fair even in lower light conditions its a great camera, it has an F1.5 - 2.4 aperture, something you know would cost more than my entire phone on a half decent camera. (I know its not a fair comparison) But also see the latest CCTV cameras, you can now buy one that has an F1.0 and it does not slip into black and white at night, the difference in the image at night is jaw dropping. Even if these cameras dont have enough light they have a supplemental LED to keep them in colour. The price for such technology, a mere £130. Trust me thats cheap for an IP camera but im getting off topic.....
I think the none polished parts of the edge are caused by inexperience, I suspect I am causing small troughs through not keeping the blade perfectly parallel during sweeps and its taking a lot more work with the finer stone to flatten it off again. 

An "off topic" question
With what tools did you get this photo?
Thanks
[/quote]

Just my phone, Samsung Galaxy S9+.

Alan,

In my earlier replies with this topic, I stated that although I feel discussing grits is an appropriate topic, recommending non Tormek products by name, including a website is not appropriate. Please delete the last part of your last reply. If this doesn't happen, as forum moderator, I will delete the topic.

Ken

Done.

Just thought I would update, the CBN wheels arrived yesterday and ive had a little play, I absolutely love these things! Both wheels are the same size measured with my micrometer so theirs no need for me to faff about changing bar heights and the only thing I would say is I wish I had purchased the 1000grit too, compared to going from 160 to 400, it takes an age going from the 400 to my 1000g SG wheel. I have decided to go from the 400 straight to deburring until I can get the next CBN. Quality seems to be exceptional and I am so glad I took the plunge,

ATB
Alan

I got mine from Germany so there is still availability to the UK, quite a bit cheaper too.

To all the rock hard felt people, how much pressure do you use? I have the "proper" RHF and use the 1 micron spray...but for some reason I don't have the kind of results I read about on this forum. I use a very light pressure, basically just the weight of the knife itself. I have  BESS tested and usually see a decrease in sharpness. For information I might go from cbn 400 to 1000 and then debur on the 250 mm leather wheel from Hanns. Usually 1 degree higher. At that point I'm happy with the results. BUT if I decide to get sharper on the RGF...it's worse??

There is evidence found by Knife Grinders that you deburr at exact angle on the leather wheel then increase the angle on the felt wheel, this takes a little trial and error, I've used a microscope and found the final burr only removed by increasing the angle, this depends on a positive or negative burr I think, knife Grinders have some vids on youtube showing the same issue you have had.
Do give all the info Rick mentioned though as you dont mention anything like using FVB etc.

Alan.

"That's the thing- anybody can do standard sharpening, I'd like to be the above and beyond person who they go to for supreme sharpness and ease of use." There was/is  a person on this forum that said they only used the SG 250 graded coarse in their business.

There is also another guy here who runs a business and his customers prefer the finish of the SJ, forget who, he may join in but he admits the edge does not hold as long, not sure if he has tried felt though to de root....

Not an expert here but I would say get the SJ and a bare T8, its Christmas!

Toothy and shiny is something Ive been exploring in other threads over the last couple of days. To be honest if your totally removing the burr with the leather honing wheel which according to Vadim you cant do and your customers are happy with the results then giving them the shiny finish is only going to impress them more and shouldn't make your knives perform any less. I think it will give you the extra mile it sounds like your looking for. The only thing to take into consideration is running costs, maybe you could polish one knife for free and let them decide if they want to pay slightly more for the added running cost to your business. I have used mine a fair bit and its still in perfect condition polishing into the edge with no probs but it had dropped a few mm because it needs regular cleaning, I have never trued this one.




Good luck, I am certain there will be way more informed replies.

Alan

Mr. ABall-

If it helps, all the microscope images in the following post were taken with the scope I mentioned.  Lighting is everything, and I spent a lot of time getting it right.  Used diffused side lighting and it took a bit of messing around.  Shiny steel is difficult to photograph with just top lighting due to reflection.

http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=68&pid=510#pid510



Many thanks Grepper, I read the thread this morning, it was very enlightening.

Alan

Alan,
When I was reviewing CBN wheels for the forum several years ago (pre diamond wheel days), I tried sharpening a chisel going directly from the 80 grit wheel to the leather honing wheel. The result surprised me. BESS was not bad, somewhere in the high 100s as I vaguely recall. The scratch pattern left on the bevel was not bad, either. As a placebo test, I then sharpened an identical chisel using the traditional three step Tormek technique with the SG-250. The result was noticeably better, both visually and BESS wise, the BESS reading being 100. (My BESS readings were handheld and somewhat primitive.

Since then, I always use the middle, SG graded fine step. It was a good learning experiment. Incidentally, right off the 80 grit wheel alone, a chisel ground with the wheel turning into the edge cut faster, but left a BESS around 450. The chisel with the wheel trailing the edge cut slower, but left a BESS about 100 points better.

Ken

This morning I read a thread on Bessex that Grepper kindly linked to regarding microscopes, he went into great effort to explain his reason for preferring a toothy grind to a smooth grind. He suggests this isnt the best way for certain tools, IE chisels for one. This is what I have managed to glean from all the experts here so far.

-staying with a lower grit size will yield an edge that rips through soft skin for longer but will not produce the highest BESS score. (note: there is an ideal margin, seems to be between 120-220)
-push tools are exempt from above. (sushi blades etc)
-the leather honing wheel is not the tool for de-rooting, felt is the tool for this.
-if the edge is properly de-rooted it should last as long if not longer so there is no need for a toothy grind, we can have our cake....... (there is no evidence to prove this yet but it makes sense)

De-rooting seems to be a term invented by Vadim and it appears to to be an important step beyond deburring, or is he just trying to sell felt wheels...... (I dont believe he is) Of course their will be people who disagree, maybe they will comment.

Alan

Incredibly helpful,  thank you for such an imformative contribution.

I hope there will be others like me who will find all of this very useful and I think there will be a few people happy to see you pop your head in, I'm sure someone said you no longer post here, apologies if I've got you mixed up.

All the best.
Alan.

I think we can all agree felt is the way to go if you want to completely remove the burr/wire edge, certainly for a novice like me anyway. I just sharpened one of my Globals, I didnt bother with grading to 1000grit, just wanted a quick sharp job. I wasnt going to bother with the felt and I thought I had completely removed the burr with the leather honing wheel, the knife felt extremely sharp on my fingers. Then I checked it with the Kingmass and I was surprised to see bits of wire on the edge still, a couple of days ago I would of stopped there but I thought, to hell with it lets see if the felt does the job..... I tried on 1.6 higher, still a little wire, 2.4 higher and bingo, completely clean along the full length. I will probably adopt this for all my kitchen knives for now, no need for the SJ or re grading the SG, I think the Felt wheel and little Loupe has given new life to the Tormek!

Alan.

...snip... Rick when you say "diamond paste" is that different to the alcohol suspension one? If so what is it?

I learned of the diamond paste from Wootz, ala Knife Grinders.  It is quite different from the spray, in that it is a past that must be rubbed onto the felt wheels with fingers or a small spatula.  It is shown on the Knife Grinders page here (way down the page, just above the kangaroo tail strop), but not listed specifically, so I think they do not sell it.  I'm not at home at the moment but from memory the logo "THK" is in the label.  I found the website here.  Again, working from memory, I think I have 15, 5, 3.5, 1, 0.5 and maybe 0.25µ pastes, but I only ever use the 1µ one. 

My honing process is simple, SJ at the sharpened angle then 1µ diamond paste on the rock hard felt wheel, from 0.5 to 2.5° above the angle, depending on the steel.    This usually gets me around 100-105 BESS.  I'm not after the final 5% of sharpness that some are.

Rick

Brilliant thanks, I just ordered 2 pots of the 1 micron, 2 dollars shipping to the UK, £13! wow I should look at some of this other stuff they sell, cheap as chips!

In 2018 Knife Grinders I recommend using this sequence on Tormek leather wheels:
- leather wheel with Tormek paste composite
- 1 micron composite leather wheel (with angle increment)
- leather wheel with chromium oxide composite + 0.25 micron
using THK diamond pastes (which I still use)
Next, he recommended using the rock hard felt wheel with diamond spray and an alcohol based suspension as you can see on his site, and it's for sale.

Van, maybe he owes you some royalties.....