Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I cannot get my chisels or plane irons straight when using the SE-76 on my T-4 machine.
I have the older Supergrind 2000 that I was using and it had the same issue and I thought it was the universal support arm that may have been bent or something so I bought a T-4 machine to remedy the problem...... wrong. I have the exact same problem. I upgraded the Square Edge jig to a newer one thinking that would fix it but again..... no.
I used the trueing tool to make sure the stone is square to the sides and sharpened two chisels and both are not even close to being square as the photos show. Two machines and two jigs and watching the videos numerous times would suggest that I"m missing something and it couldn't be the tools.
Any ideas what I'm not doing correctly?
Kevin
Kevin,
You are asking one of the favorite forum questions. Actually, you are off to a very good start. Having your grinding wheel properly trued is always the best way to begin. You are using a combination square, a very good idea.
I think you are waiting too long before checking and correcting course. Using a marker on the bevel may help. Looking at your bevel with the square, note which is the high side. (It may help to add a little tick mark with a marker, possibly with a second color.) Grind for just a very few seconds. Your new grinding should only be on the high end of your bevel. If not, loosen your jig tightening screw ever so slightly and gently tap the far end of the chisel or plane blade toward the high side. Retighten and grind some more. Once you are grinding square, complete your sharpening.
Do not be in a hurry. With practice, this will go more quickly. Plus, you will have very little corrective grinding.
Jeff Farris used to recommend varying the finger pressure to correct for squareness. I think that is an excellent final technique for after aligning the tool as close as possible.
Ken
Thanks for the reply Ken.
Well.... I had no idea I had to "course correct" when using that jig. It doesn't seem to be clear in any of the how-to videos that it's an important process. I thought you just had to register the side of the chisel to the edge of the jig and it would automatically square it up.
Once it is square, I assume it is as easy as using the side of the jig after that?
I guess I have some practicing to do :-)
Thanks for the info Ken.... cheers
Kevin
Ken, are most chisels not square new and out of the box? I have done a few but never seen them this far off.
Interesting, I didn't even know there is a SE-76. It's the predecessor of the SE-77, right?
The main difference seem to be the two adjustment screws. I found that using these is very helpful when you have to correct an angle or a skewed bevel.
Micha,
The SE-76 replaced the SVH-60 straight edge jig. Unlike the SE-77, you cannot adjust the camber with the other two.
But, I've found that the SVH-60 accommodates shorter chisels than the SE-76 or SE-77. This is because the SVH-60 doesn't raise the chisel as high above the universal bar. So it is easier to get a smaller bevel angle on tools where the projection is short.
Given the choice, I'd rather use the SE-76 or SE-77. But it's good to keep the SVH-60 around in case you have an older, shorter chisel.
Good luck,
Rich
Very good question, John. I would say it depends.... I would expect premium chisels like Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or Blue Spruce to be excellent right out of the box. Frankly, I would be reluctant to stray too far from these.
I think part of the problem is the desire to have a "compleat" set of chisels. I think we would be better off with a few well chosen chisel sizes of superior quality than a full set with rarely used sizes.
Ken
Quote from: RichColvin on September 15, 2019, 08:08:32 PM
Micha,
The SE-76 replaced the SVH-60 straight edge jig. Unlike the SE-77, you cannot adjust the camber with the other two.
Thanks, Rich. I wasn't aware of an SVH-60, either. :) But looking at the picture above I see the advantage for short chisels.
I just wanted to point out that the adjustment knobs on SE-77 are not necessarily for allowing some camber, but also allow for easy and very precise correction of the work angle.
Micha
Good observation, Micha. Tormek markets the squareness adjustment for chisels more than plane blade camber. Personally, as a plane user, I love the controlled camber feature. I think use of blade camber is more of a sophisticated technique, and would appeal to fewer users. The squareness adjustment is nice, too.
Ken
Good morning 10 Fingers
You are not alone getting up this learning curve; there's plenty previous advice on this forum about getting chisels or plane blades square.
I would suggest that you stay with the bevel edge chill and use that one solely until to get the square process understood - ie there's tweaks required which are to overcome the live situation you are in. Don't keep changing chisels as you are starting afresh. One of your photos, the non-bevel chisel, is like one of mine, and the blade as some minor twist and bend in the other plane that no matter what I try it will never be square at the sharpened end.
When mounting the bevel chisel in the SE-76, with say a 45 - 50mm projection, turn the chisel so that you are looking at the end about to be sharpened. Look up the blade of the chisel, ensure that the moving surface of the Se-76 is clamped - not too tight, only enough to hold the blade in place - and that the surface of the moving part of the SE-76 is flush across the chisel. If it clamps to the chisel at an angle, it will introduce a small annoying twist.
There are angular issues, in two planes, involved in trying to chisels square at the end - see the link below where I have tried to explain this in drawing form.
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3992.0 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3992.0)
The main thing I would suggest you do initially, is ignore your measuring square and use a marker pen and eye ball, and make small amounts of grinding with very frequent visual inspection, and with subtle small adjustments to finger pressure, mounting of blade in the SE-76, until you understand how to correct for off-square grinding.
Good thoughts, Robin.
Ken
What a coincidence... I just came here to ask for advice on where to buy a SE-76, because my T-8 came with the SE-77, and I was hoping the SE76 would make for less muss and fuss to get my chisels square. Don't get me wrong, I like the SE-77 for cambering plane irons, etc, but it seems like I spend an inordinate amount of time fussing with the adjustment screws on the SE-77 the grind my chisels square. Of course the Se-76 is discontinued, so I'm having a hard time finding one, even on ebay.
But, based in this discussion, maybe the SE-76 isn't quite the "automatically square" time saver I was hoping for.
Chay,
Consider getting an SVH-60. May be on eBay. Really useful for shorter tools.
Kind regards,
Rich
Looking at the four photos Kevin posted, the second photo appears to show both square edge jigs. The one on top is the SVH-60. Notice that it holds chisels using the top surface of the jig. The design does allow sharpening of shorter chisels, as Rich correctly notes. The top holding design also allows holding of very thick traditional "pig sticker" mortise chisels. Today these are rarely used but useful tools. Most modern mortise chisels are lighter sash mortise chisels, which fit is the SE-76 and SE-77 jigs.
Kevin's fourth photo shows an out of square chisel. If the bevel is blackened, the initial corrected grinding pattern should show only grinding at the high end of the bevel. If correctly set, further grinding will spread across the entire bevel, eventually leaving the bevel square.
Jeff Farris used to talk about using "English", varying finger pressure from side to side for minor correction. With diligent practice, your edges will soon be consistently square. Patience and persistence will be rewarded.
Keep posting
Ken
So now you've got me thinking about how to use the SE-77 for non-cambered, square edges like chisels. My approach has been to use the jig with the two adjustment knobs tightened firm, so it won't allow any angular deviation. The challenge with this technique is the initial setting of the two knobs... the index mark on the jig isn't nearly fine enough (for me) to hit dead square on first (or second, or third) try.
Now you've got me thinking that another approach might be to leave the adjustment knobs a touch loose to allow for some play, and just grind for square based on feel / muscle memory.
Does that make sense? How to you guys do it?
Quote from: chaywesley on October 02, 2019, 05:19:20 PM
Now you've got me thinking that another approach might be to leave the adjustment knobs a touch loose to allow for some play, and just grind for square based on feel / muscle memory.
Does that make sense? How to you guys do it?
I used to think jigs should be graunched down tight, however I now tend to just go with lightly held with a bit of fineness in the muscle memory. For me it works better BUT I mostly sharpen woodturning tools and as I have said before in this forum that is a different sort of sharp! my expertise in any other tool is limited as I don't use them so much.
Alan Holtham uses a word I really like, "fiddly", meaning something which requires a lot of adjustment. Assuming your chisels are properly ground during manufacture, after your first fiddly chisel setting, the rest should align easily.
First order of business: following the Tips and Techniques anchored as the first topic, order two 3/4" Irwin Blue Chip chisels. These are learning and sharpening practice tools. They are well made and priced very reasonably. Do not purchase a set; purchase two of the same width. Dedicate a sharpening session to just these two chisels. Work on the first chisel until you are satisfied that it is sharp and square. Do not short cut this process. Do not use it as just a prelude before sharpening other tools.
Having more than one identical chisel lets you compare the effects of different steps of grinding. (For the record, I have around a dozen of these identical chisels and have found them invaluable for comparing different grinding wheels.)
More soon, end of the day.
Ken
ps Regarding the SVD-60, I bought one so that I could sharpen a pig sticker mortise chisel if I ever acquired one. I do not regret the purchase, although after almost ten years, the jig remains ready to use, but never used.
I would sharpen short chisels using just the USB as a platform. Working carefully, you should be able to achieve acceptable angle control.
Quote from: chaywesley on October 02, 2019, 05:19:20 PM
So now you've got me thinking about how to use the SE-77 for non-cambered, square edges like chisels. My approach has been to use the jig with the two adjustment knobs tightened firm, so it won't allow any angular deviation. The challenge with this technique is the initial setting of the two knobs... the index mark on the jig isn't nearly fine enough (for me) to hit dead square on first (or second, or third) try.
Now you've got me thinking that another approach might be to leave the adjustment knobs a touch loose to allow for some play, and just grind for square based on feel / muscle memory.
Does that make sense? How to you guys do it?
Although it took me a few attempts to figure it out, I like the SE-77 jig for establishing the primary bevel on my chisels and plane irons. Here is my procedure for establishing a 25-degree bevel on a chisel using the T8 and the SE-77.
1. Set the USB 9mm above the grinding wheel. I use a wooden spacer and adjust the height of the USB until it just contacts the spacer that is resting on the wheel. This assumes the wheel and USB are parallel, but minor differences can be eliminated during the grind since the SE-77 can be adjusted.
2. For the 25-degree bevel, I set the projection of the chisel to 38mm from the front edge of the SE-77.
3. Completely blacken the bevel area with a permanent marker so any fresh grinds are readily visible. This will be important to determine the direction to rotate the adjustment knobs to ensure a square grind.
4. Start with the SE-77 index marks aligned and the adjustment knobs tightened. I always keep all of the knobs tightened.
5. Make one or two passes on the wheel and inspect the quality of the grind. If you are lucky, the fresh grind will be uniform across the width of the chisel. If not, make small adjustments with the two small knobs. I loosen one about an eighth of a turn and tighten the other until it is snug. You can blacken the bevel area again between adjustments as required to see the effects of the changes.
Trial and error will tell you which knobs to loosen to square the chisel in the jig, but it's important to do this early in the process while only a little area of metal is being removed.
The next time I grind a chisel, I'll document the process and post the images.
Hi!
I am new here. Based in Norway, got my T8 on Black Friday sale from ClasOhlson (if your are in the nordic contries you know the stores).
Anyway, the tormek is GREAT!!! but I am having trouble grinding a square edge. I have the one jig that comes with machine (SE-77). I have ground a few chisels and 4 planes. I am having consistent problems with squareness (if that is a word). The first was a blunder, the adjustment screws were thight but the setting was to the side (or squwed or how you say it). Then I ran in to the same problem twice, the blades are slightly narrower at the back than at the edge. It was difficult to see but when I checked the newly sharpened edge it was not square to the centerline. The plane had an adjustment lever so with that to one side (max setting) I am OK, but the question is;
I there a general procedure to grind a square edge on a chisel or plane blade that does not assume that the edge is square to begin with and take into account that the item may not have parallel sides?
Regards,
MagneO
Welcome to the forum, MagneO.
Unfortunately, we live in a world which is not always square, plumb, level, or parallel. I installed a vanity sink in my bathroom only to find that the corner on the walls were not square. I had a cap installed in my truck and learned that the cab and bed of the truck were out of alignment. The carpenter who installed new windows in my home informed me that if he installed one of the windows level, the window would not be parallel with the ceiling. With chisels, as with these, we must compensate and fool the eye. There is no magic bullet to make an unsquare tool square.
That statement is not quite true. If the chisel is new, I would return it. If your primary desire is to use chisels to make things, a strong case can be made that your tool dollars are spent more efficiently purchasing fewer chisels of high quality than in spending hours trying to correct many poorly made chisels. You can correct improperly made chisels, however, it is a lot of work. I did this once with a nice old Buck Brothers chisel. It has an especially feel in my hand. I do not regret the hard labor, but I would not work so hard and long on ordinary chisels. Better to buy one half inch Lie-Nielsen chisel than a set of hardware store chisels.
Before writing this, I carefully reread the previous replies. It is time well spent; I recommend you do the same. i would pay particular attention to Robin W's advice to stick with one chisel until you have it right. Be kind to yourself and let that first chisel be around 3/4" (19mm) width. Narrow chisels can be quite frustrating for beginning sharpeners.
Sharpen the bevel last. First flatten and polish the back of the chisel. Start with the chisels you will actually use for cutting dovetails and finish paring. Get the backs right before you even think of touching the bevel. Fortunately, flattening the back is a one time job.
Go slow, check often. Once you get the hang of it, your chisel sharpening will become much more efficient.
Do not become discouraged.
Ken,
thanks for your reply. No chance of me becoming discouaged. The results even if not perferctly square was MUCH better than anything I have acomplished before. It is the other way around, since I am not good at sharpening I really never did much of it. Now I feel that I am in control of the situation. The Tormek is easy to use, and I feel that I have learnt a lot from the few items I have sharpend already. Buying new tools is not on the agenda (not currently anyway :-)) since the point of buying the Tormek in the first place was to get what I and my father already have laying around back into working order. I think I will try get my hand on one of these small machinists squares, it seem to be possibly quite useful.
Regards, Magne
MagneO,
Learning to use a Tormek is like learning to play a musical instrument; you have to train your fingers, ears, eyes and mind through practice.
I think a small square is essential. Use it as a "second opinion". Train your eyes to be your first "square". It takes only seconds to evaluate the squareness of your grind with your eyes. After you do this, reach for your square. You will be surprised with how accurate your eyes can be.
Ken
I find that when it is easy & fast to resharpen, I do so often. And that makes my woodturning ever so much easier, better, & produces far better results.
Kind regards,
Rich