Tormek Community Forum

I see the value for the DWC wheel immediately, especially for harder metals like HSS, & especially carbide. 

Questions for those wiser than I :   

• What will be your criteria for choosing the DWF & DWE wheels ?
• And how do you see the SJ stone fitting into that ?

And, what do you see as the process you will use ?

• DWC for shaping & really hard metals ?
• DWC -> DWF -> DWE ... -> SJ ?
• DWC -> DWE -> SJ ?

Rich,

I agree with you about the DWC and harder metals. For planar and jointer blades, it seems the cat's meow, continued consistent cutting without having to stop to use the stone grader or adjust for wheel wear.

I have only used my DWF-200 with knives. I am guessing that the DWF might be very nice for a particular production turner who sharpens frequently to maintain tip top sharpness. For a turner anxious to get back to the lathe, I think the DWC would quickly become his go to wheel. Used with a light touch (as Tormek recommends for all diamond and SB grinding), The DWC leaves a surprisingly fine finish. For a turner like you, who sharpens enough to wear out SG and SB wheels, I think at least one grit of diamond wheel would be a substantial saving over the years.

I can see the DWE being a good choice for a carving school or anyone doing a lot of delicate sharpening.

I see the diamond wheel market with two main groups. The first will be professions who compare the extra cost of a diamond wheel with its added longevity and productivity from not needing to dress the wheel. The second group is the sharpening fans. In the automotive world, these are the guys with a four wheel drive Jeep for that rugged half mile commute across town. In the woodworking world, these are the guys with a Stanley or Lie-Nielsen number one bench plane on display. I describe them lovingly, as I am not too distantly related. An older four cylinder Equinox and century old Stanley planes, but thirteen grinding wheels for my Tormeks.

Sadly, I see a third group, those who are hesitant to learn how to use the truing tool and the stone grader. It took me a while to work up the courage to true my precious grinding wheel. I trust that no student of a good Tormek instructor like Robin Bailey or Wootz leaves class without becoming comfortable with the truing tool.

For those of us who are not comfortable with the truing tool, spend an hour learning how to use it. Dedicate the time to learning. Go through the process slowly and lightly until you are comfortable with it. True lightly and frequently. Make your decision about diamond wheels based on skill rather than doubt.

The old reliable SG has stood by us well for over forty years, and will serve the home shop or small business as well as ever.

Ken

Quote from: RichColvin on March 06, 2018, 03:59:43 AM
I see the value for the DWC wheel immediately, especially for harder metals like HSS, & especially carbide. 

Questions for those wiser than I :   

• What will be your criteria for choosing the DWF & DWE wheels ?
• And how do you see the SJ stone fitting into that ?

And, what do you see as the process you will use ?

• DWC for shaping & really hard metals ?
• DWC -> DWF -> DWE ... -> SJ ?
• DWC -> DWE -> SJ ?

My comment, since you asked about progression is... there is no right answer.  ::)  It depends on the finish you desire.  For example, you can go from a DWC to the SJ wheel, leaving what some call a "toothy polished" edge.  If you're seeking a true polish, then you'd want to go thru all the steps... DWC -> DWF -> DWE -> SJ ... for as much scratch removal as possible.

If the DWE leaves as fine a finish as Tormek is claiming, I could see eliminating the SJ wheel altogether, unless you really need a mirror polish for some reason.  My .02.  8)

CB,

When I was testing the CBN wheels, I was surprised with the somewhat respectable finish going right from an 80 or 180 grit CBN wheel to the leather honing wheel produced. Quick and dirty, but better than I expected. No match for the traditional three step Tormek method, but not too shabby.

I believe we are witnessing the beginning of some major changes. I am pleased that Tormek is taking the lead.

Ken

I an being lazy and not researching out the answer to my question.

   What has changed in the world of diamond wheel usage enabling them to be used on steel? As some of you know, I have been involved sharpening in the past (circular saw blades, handsaws, chainsaws, etc.). The circular saw blades included carbide tipped blades as well as those of steel. All these were done on high speed dry grinders although more expensive equipment at times utilized flood cooling.

   At the Foley Belsaw school (a 5 day class) I attended, carbide tipped saw blades were covered. This utilized a diamond grinding wheel. We were taught to never contact anything but the carbide tip with the diamond wheel. As I recall, that was due to the fact that the diamond wheel would "load up" when contacting the steel. To remove the "loaded up" steel, the diamond grinding band would be compromised quickly. Other kinds of grinding wheels such as resin, vitrified, or cbn were used for steel.

   I realize that some knives are made of hardened steel, high speed steel is hardened etc, but will the the water bath of the Tormek be sufficient to keep diamond wheel from "loading up"? What has changed in the diamond wheel manufacturing over the years? Will it handle softer steel?

   I am just curious.

As I understand it, the problem with high speed diamond wheels and steel is the carbon atoms in the diamonds will combine with the alloy atoms in the steel turning the diamonds into something that is not pure carbon, destroying the diamonds. With the Tormek's slow speed, that shouldn't be a problem.

http://www.optigrind.com/page_2538178.html (http://www.optigrind.com/page_2538178.html)

Mike

   That is interesting, thanks Mike.

   I do know from using DMT diamond stones for hand sharpening, that they do "load up" when sharpening knives. However, a cleaner such as Comet will clean the diamond stones. It seems to me that they have been losing their abrasive effectiveness after quite a bit of use. The coarser stones seem to lose their bite more quickly than the finer stones.

   It will be interesting to hear the reports from the users after long term usage of the diamond wheels.

Elden and Mike,

You raise an interesting question. All too often we encounter what I call "high speed dry grinder" thinking. I see this all the time in the instructions for other wet grinders and in so many articles. The lawyers and would be writers get their information from the dangers and environment of the high speed grinder. Yes, at 3450 or 1725 RPM, there is real danger of a cracked wheel flying apart or dust and sparks, as well as overheating. Tormek is one of the very few companies which thinks in slow speed wet grinding.

The CBN wheelmakers are also high speed dry grinding thinkers. Their target market is woodturners. In fact, at least one is also a very involved turner. CBN wheels work very well with high speed dry grinders. One vender has voided his warranty if his wheels are used wet. Another had no problem with customers using his wheels wet with a Tormek, however, he made no mention to me of needing to use a rust inhibitor to keep the steel reducing bushing from rusting. I have found that his reducing bushing (same bushing for both size Tormeks) is plug and play with both size Tormeks. It fits both sizes exactly. The wheels cut very well wet or dry. However, if the manufacturer was really thinking in wet grinding mode, he would have made the bushings out of stainless steel and put an anti corrosion finish over the drilled balancing holes (or made the wheels themselves out of stainless). On a practical level, a rust inhibitor solves this problem.

One vendor I contacted was unaware of the size requirements of a T4, although, in fairness, he offered to make up a custom size if I provided dimensions. I do not mean to speak poorly of the vendors. They seem like good and knowledgeable people to me; they are just not Tormek users.

I do not completely understand the pure carbon argument, so I will tentatively accept it on faith. I do know that the two diamond wheels for the T2/4 are very cool cutting. I am quite sure that the Tormek engineers had good reasons for choosing diamond over CBN for use with the Tormek. I also believe that Tormek must reeducate its users to use diamond wheels effectively. The handbook barely mentions the SB and SJ. From what I gather, proper technique is critical to the longevity of the diamond wheels. Tormek technique, as understood by the users, is still in the SG mode where lots of grinding pressure works well.

I essentially ruined a two hundred dollar DMT flattening plate with one bench stone. These plates work nicely with waterstones and India stones. A carborumdum stone ruined it. I do not expect either CBN or diamond wheels to last forever. On a practical level, if a diamond wheel might cost say twice that an SB costs, if the diamond wheel lasts more than twice as long it becomes the better value. I suspect it will be working much longer than that.

As Tormek users, those of us interested in diamond wheels also have a learning curve. We are on the cusp of an amazing technology.

Ken

Another Facebook quote from Tormek...

Quote from: TormekDiamond is the world's hardest material and almost twice as hard as cubic boron nitride (CBN). The diamond's extreme hardness and durability make it the optimal material for sharpening, and it can be used on a Tormek thanks to the low speed on our machines. If you were to use diamond on a bench grinder, the diamonds would be destroyed due to the high speed. Our Diamond Wheels can also be used in water, thanks to our newly developed ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate, which is included in the package. You can also sharpen dry, but we always recommend to sharpen with water as it prolongs the life of the wheel and gives a better result. Regarding your question whether it is better for sharpening drill bits and tools there is no "right" answer, it depends what you prefer as a user. If you want to have an easy set up and save time by not having to true your wheel, a Diamond Wheel is perfect. They'll come in three different grades, where the DC-250 Coarse with 360 grit is perfect if you want to rapidly repair or shape a tool, and DF-250 Fine (600 grit) is a good all-round wheel and the DE-250 Extra Fine (1200 grit) gives an extra fine finish. If you want to be able to change the grit size during the sharpening, the Original Grindstone is the best option. Let us know if you have an further questions and we'll gladly answer them :) / Kind regards, Marie - Marketing Manager

Interesting post.

I have used my DBS-22, but only a little. I would ask both Tormek and those who regularly sharpen drill bits how often sharpeners use more than one grit when sharpening one bit.

As a home sharpener, only a few bits to sharpen, I have found the SG quite satisfactory. As a Tormek perfectionist, I have used the stone grader and the leather honing wheel. However, if I was sharpening drill bits professionally and/or in large numbers, I would have a diamond wheel as soon as I felt the revenue would justify the extra cost. Based on my tests with the DWC-200 and chisels, I think the results with the correct light touch are very smooth.  Except for a quick touch with the round faced leather honing wheel to remove any burr, I don't think I would go beyond the original wheel if I had twenty bits to sharpen. My initial test was with a dry wheel, I would expect at least a slight improvement using the wheel wet.

Drill bits are often only sharpened when they become deadly dull. My inclination would be to acquire the DWC first. However, I would want to base that decision on more than just my thoughts.

Our member, Grinder of Sweden, uses a T4 and DBS-22 successfully. I would be interested to know his thoughts.

Ken

ps I need to spend more time viditing Tormek's facebook and instagram sites.

Quote from: Ken S on March 07, 2018, 05:00:56 PM
...
ps I need to spend more time viditing Tormek's facebook and instagram sites.

If you want any info from Tormek... pretty much the route to take.  :P

CB,

Unfortunately, I must agree with you again. When facebook arrived, so many people dropped off the planet with email. I already spend too much time online with the forum. I hate to spend any more time with facebook and instagram. However, that seems the way to keep current...grumble, grumble.

Ken

Hi,
There is many platforms to keep information going all the time.  Tormek has dedicated staff to work on the social media platforms, with the exception of this forum at this time.

This forum should be a Tormek forum, used by users and not with to much influence by Tormek. Also, this Forum is more advanced than the social media where is not allowed to use to many letters or streaming.

When it comes to dedicated questions, please use support@tormek.se as we will be able to set more time to answer an e-mail than to keep track of all questions that are in a topic.
Since I am basically the man to answer Tormek questions here and I am travelling intensively during several periods a year, an email will be answered faster from received by e-mail mail than on the forum.

Sincerely,
Stig

Quote from: Ken S on March 08, 2018, 11:10:31 AM
CB,

Unfortunately, I must agree with you again. When facebook arrived, so many people dropped off the planet with email. I already spend too much time online with the forum. I hate to spend any more time with facebook and instagram. However, that seems the way to keep current...grumble, grumble.

Ken

The reality is, the social media platforms are also replacing the forums.  (This has nothing to do with Tormek, it has happened elsewhere).  You might have to "rebudget" your time. ;)

I for one hope that this forum is the main source for information. I don't subscribe to social media and rely on this forum for everything Tormek.

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 08, 2018, 03:20:28 PM

Quote from: Ken S on March 08, 2018, 11:10:31 AM
CB,

Unfortunately, I must agree with you again. When facebook arrived, so many people dropped off the planet with email. I already spend too much time online with the forum. I hate to spend any more time with facebook and instagram. However, that seems the way to keep current...grumble, grumble.

Ken

The reality is, the social media platforms are also replacing the forums.  (This has nothing to do with Tormek, it has happened elsewhere).  You might have to "rebudget" your time. ;)

I let my wife answer that.....  :o

This Forum has had a steady growth the last years and I believe its becasue of you users with a higher wish of understanding how things work.
For many user this forum is to advanced for what they need to know and they are ok by getting info from our handbook, DVD, Web-page or easier social medias.

Sincerely,
Stig

I was going to add this to my last post... but you guys are quick. ;)

Even Tormek's recommendation for info....

Quote from: marie on December 01, 2017, 08:33:33 AM
Good morning from Sweden!

First of all, I hope everyone is well! From what I read, you all seem to be staying really sharp! Great to see! :)
For those of you who don't know who I am, my name is Marie and I am working with Marketing Communications at Tormek.

Today, I just want to check in and encourage you all to follow us on Instagram, which is a social networking app made for sharing photos and videos.
If you are using the app, you can follow us directly at tormek_sharpening and get our features in your feed.
You can also see our feed in your browser by following this link: https://www.instagram.com/tormek_sharpening

We use Instagram to keep everyone updated on Tormek news and other tips and tricks. We hope to see you there!
Wishing you all a great day!

Kind regards,
Marie

We need to be as versatile in our sources, as we are in our sharpening. ;)

I can understand that many of the forum topics may be beyond the knowledge or interest of many Tormek users. They were certainly above my Tormek knowledge when I first joined in 2009. They were not above my interest, or the interest of many of us.

I can certainly understand that Tormek, like any business, must concentrate its marketing resources where they will produce the best return.

I understand that the present fashion for communication has become facebook and instagram.  And, yes, I am well aware that I must adapt to the present fashion in communication. I will do that.

I do receive press releases from Tormek and a couple dealers, which I appreciate. I share this information with the forum and encourage other members to do the same.

I have long felt that support has been the best place for authoritative answers. There are many areas where we are lean on expertise. We always try to help, but often a solid answer from support would be more useful.  I suggest we all make better use of support and share that knowledge, when applicable, with the forum. There is a lot of expertise in Sweden which, while not confidential, has not entered into the handbook yet. The Tormek is a very versatile tool in skilled hands; I want go make every effort to make our members more skilled.

I have had more pleasant contact with Tormek personnel than most of the members. I want to share those good feelings and what I have learned with the membership.

Ken

I haven't been on the forum in a while, life has a way of getting in the way.  (been working 12 to 14 hour days, so when I am off, I am exhausted)
I am looking forward to the course wheel, and due to my long hours, when I saw the email, I tried to find one online to order (missed the coming in June part).  I like refurbishing tools and such and can see this for things like dressing screwdrivers, chipped plane blades, shaping lathe tools, etc.  Then I could use either my black wheel or my SG stone, and of course vary the grinding a bit (pressure, stone use, etc).
I think the SJ stone has a place certainly in certain types of eastern restaurants (spelling, sishimi knife).  The E series diamond stone, might give it a run for its money in cost, durability, and edge for those that don't already have one.  But most knifes I think the thoughts on the forum are, should have a bit of a toothy edge.
So I would think if you were consistently touching up the same types of tools, the F diamond stone, might be as fine as you want.

Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on March 11, 2018, 05:56:35 AM
I think the SJ stone has a place certainly in certain types of eastern restaurants (spelling, sishimi knife). 

So, my curiosity was aroused... anyone have an example of the SJ wheel actually being used on a Japanese knife?  ???

(A sashimi knife in particular... I think you'd be hard pressed to find one being sharpened on a Tormek... but would be interested in seeing it done).

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 11, 2018, 03:00:49 PM

Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on March 11, 2018, 05:56:35 AM
I think the SJ stone has a place certainly in certain types of eastern restaurants (spelling, sishimi knife). 

So, my curiosity was aroused... anyone have an example of the SJ wheel actually being used on a Japanese knife?  ???

(A sashimi knife in particular... I think you'd be hard pressed to find one being sharpened on a Tormek... but would be interested in seeing it done).

I have no idea where I saw it.  Before the T2 was available for commercial use in the USA, there was a video (seems like it dealt with other issues) where during it, they shown their T7 and their SJ stone that they used regularly on their knives.
This is why I think someone would choose the SJ stone over the diamond stone, current user and no reason to spend more money.

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 11, 2018, 03:00:49 PMSo, my curiosity was aroused... anyone have an example of the SJ wheel actually being used on a Japanese knife?  ???

(A sashimi knife in particular... I think you'd be hard pressed to find one being sharpened on a Tormek... but would be interested in seeing it done).

CB,

I've used the SJ stone on a Japanese marking knife, & it worked wonderfully. 

Rich

I think the SJ will remain popular. It has the ultimate edge mystique of 4000 grit. While the SG will continue to serve the majority of sharpeners day in and day out, some sharpeners will require, or at least believe that they require, the ultimate edges. While the SG does trooper service for my urility and dovetail chisels, a highly polished edge on a Japanese marking knife is certainly tempting for precise layout work.

I like having choices.

Ken

Quote from: RichColvin on March 13, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
CB,

I've used the SJ stone on a Japanese marking knife, & it worked wonderfully. 

Rich

Thanks.  I was thinking more of the "traditional" Japanese kitchen knives, (and probably asked it a bit "tongue in cheek"). ;)

I've used the SJ stone, but not on my jap knives yet. gotta get a little better before I try that.

We should remember the function of the SJ. It is a polishing tool; it is not designed to remove metal ( to any appreciable amount). Also, while I know that some of wear out SG and SB grinding wheels, I have never read of anyone wearing out an SJ.

Ken

According to a support request I sent this morning: Using the Sj-250 after DWE-250 will still make a better edge than only the DWE wheel.

Ken

Quote from: Ken S on March 15, 2018, 11:54:05 AM
According to a support request I sent this morning: Using the Sj-250 after DWE-250 will still make a better edge than only the DWE wheel.

Ken

I would say "more refined" edge... not a "better" edge.  ;)

The reason... depending on how the knife/tool is used, a 1200g finish off the DE-250 might perform better than a 4000g edge off the SJ wheel.

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 15, 2018, 01:55:28 PM

Quote from: Ken S on March 15, 2018, 11:54:05 AM
According to a support request I sent this morning: Using the Sj-250 after DWE-250 will still make a better edge than only the DWE wheel.

Ken

I would say "more refined" edge... not a "better" edge.  ;)

The reason... depending on how the knife/tool is used, a 1200g finish off the DE-250 might perform better than a 4000g edge off the SJ wheel.

I know that some prefers to have some "burr" left on the edge. A honed edge stays sharp longer than an edge with some burr left on it.
Also something to take into consideration.


Stig

Quote from: Stickan on March 15, 2018, 02:14:22 PM
I know that some prefers to have some "burr" left on the edge. A honed edge stays sharp longer than an edge with some burr left on it.
Also something to take into consideration.

Stig

True... but are you saying that an edge can't be "de-burred" on the DE-250 (or other) stone?

My experience, (and I've posted it before), is that you'll get a better edge if it's as burr free as possible, prior to any type of honing.

The gold standard of kitchen cutlery use seems to be slicing tomatoes. With tomatoes, the oft quoted term is "toothiness". Among the ways to obtain this toothy quality is to begin with a very sharp knife and use a ceramic rod to add the toothiness (degrade the edge slightly).

The Tormek demonstration of cutting a tomato into very thin slices without touching it makes me think this issue may have more than meets the eye.I would be curious to see this demonstration (performed with both sharprning methods) on the twentieth tomato.

I believe we may have some confusion with word usage. To me, toothiness means a slightly unpolished edge designed to snag things like tomato skins. While they may be close cousins, I think of burr as the mostly ground surface of an edge which should be removed, either in the sharpening process or in eating the food if it is left on the knife. (not the most pleasant thought) 

I would expect a very expert (and priced accordingly) sharpener to be able to vary his sharpening to meed the individual customer's expectations, if the customer desired that. I see these questions as part of the learning process which will make all of us more skilled sharpeners.

Ken

[/quote]

True... but are you saying that an edge can't be "de-burred" on the DE-250 (or other) stone?

My experience, (and I've posted it before), is that you'll get a better edge if it's as burr free as possible, prior to any type of honing.
[/quote]

Good question and I would like to use more time answering it, but I am a bit "on the clock" so a short answer which I hope will do for today.

There will be burr left on an edge with the DE-250 wheel which you likely would remove.
You can, by using light pressure the last passes over the wheel, get less burr butt it will still be in need of honing .
The closest to a "de-burred" edge is on the SJ stones.
Personally, I hone all tools but the only thing I would not hone is regular scissors, as they should have burr left. Well, I don't hone drillbits either to be honest.
This needs practice especially on chisels/plane blades but easily described in the handbook (p.122 on the latest edition) but when you get the feel for it it's pretty interesting to feel the difference on those tools. I hone knifes the same way.
I do understand why you have your opinion regarding this, as honing might round the edge a little.
Using a stone with it's hard surface, will keep the edge on a tool more "straight" than on a more soft leather-wheel. But with experience, honing will get close to the same sharpness as the SJ stones.

Quote from: Ken S on March 15, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
To me, toothiness means a slightly unpolished edge designed to snag things like tomato skins.

My .02... "toothiness" can be achieved even with a polished edge, as long as you don't round or otherwise remove the "teeth".  (But like most things in sharpening... it's a pretty subjective definition).

Quote from: Stickan on March 15, 2018, 04:02:47 PM

Good question and I would like to use more time answering it, but I am a bit "on the clock" so a short answer which I hope will do for today.

There will be burr left on an edge with the DE-250 wheel which you likely would remove.
You can, by using light pressure the last passes over the wheel, get less burr butt it will still be in need of honing .
The closest to a "de-burred" edge is on the SJ stones.
Personally, I hone all tools but the only thing I would not hone is regular scissors, as they should have burr left. Well, I don't hone drillbits either to be honest.
This needs practice especially on chisels/plane blades but easily described in the handbook (p.122 on the latest edition) but when you get the feel for it it's pretty interesting to feel the difference on those tools. I hone knifes the same way.
I do understand why you have your opinion regarding this, as honing might round the edge a little.
Using a stone with it's hard surface, will keep the edge on a tool more "straight" than on a more soft leather-wheel. But with experience, honing will get close to the same sharpness as the SJ stones.

I'm missing the point of p.122 (or maybe I'm trying too hard)... do you "prehone" all the manufacturer scratches out of a knife?

I think a knife can be deburred on a wheel without further honing... light pressure (as you stated) combined with a higher angle, will often do it.  (Or at least deburred enough that it's hard to detect in use).  Probably also depends on the level of sharpness one is trying to achieve.  On the Tormek it can be harder.. one reason I'd like to see the finer diamond wheel.

"
I'm missing the point of p.122 (or maybe I'm trying too hard)... do you "prehone" all the manufacturer scratches out of a knife?

I think a knife can be deburred on a wheel without further honing... light pressure (as you stated) combined with a higher angle, will often do it.  (Or at least deburred enough that it's hard to detect in use).  Probably also depends on the level of sharpness one is trying to achieve.  On the Tormek it can be harder.. one reason I'd like to see the finer diamond wheel."

Page 122 in the handbook shows how you hone a chisel freehand. I hone my knifes the same way.
I got a new Japanese knife some years ago, known to be sharp "out of the box". 5 days later my wife told me that I had to sharpen it. I honed it and it stayed sharp for weeks.
I told this to my friend who import these knifes and got the answer that all knifes has a little burr when new and honing will get them sharper.
I sharpen my knifes 1-2 times each year but hone them 3-5 times each year depending on quality of steel and angle I've played with.

Some month ago I got in contact with an Australian woodcarver who purchased a Tormek and was not very satisfied with the edge he got.
We had long discussions via Instagram and after a few weeks he really learned and had the time to test and play around so he got the edge he wanted and slightly more. When he purchased the SJ stone, I gave him the tip, same as your wrote, to put an extra degree on the angle-master when he was using the Japanese wheel.
He is a very talented spooncarver, you can follow him on Instagram,  spoon_carving_with _tom where he also share his view of sharpening in a honest way.

Sincerely,
Stig

Quote from: Stickan on March 16, 2018, 09:42:23 AM
Page 122 in the handbook shows how you hone a chisel freehand. I hone my knifes the same way.
I got a new Japanese knife some years ago, known to be sharp "out of the box". 5 days later my wife told me that I had to sharpen it. I honed it and it stayed sharp for weeks.
I told this to my friend who import these knifes and got the answer that all knifes has a little burr when new and honing will get them sharper.
I sharpen my knifes 1-2 times each year but hone them 3-5 times each year depending on quality of steel and angle I've played with.

Some month ago I got in contact with an Australian woodcarver who purchased a Tormek and was not very satisfied with the edge he got.
We had long discussions via Instagram and after a few weeks he really learned and had the time to test and play around so he got the edge he wanted and slightly more. When he purchased the SJ stone, I gave him the tip, same as your wrote, to put an extra degree on the angle-master when he was using the Japanese wheel.
He is a very talented spooncarver, you can follow him on Instagram,  spoon_carving_with _tom where he also share his view of sharpening in a honest way.

Sincerely,
Stig

Ah, OK.  Guess I was trying too hard. :)

I have seen that Instagram feed.  (Unfortunately, he's another guy who thinks "Instagram Live" is a good idea).  :-\  He seems like he's into stropping quite a bit (considering he evens sells strops).... do you recall anything specific on the leather honing wheel (not the SJ stone) that differed from stropping on a regular strop, that was different?

Thanks.

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 16, 2018, 02:35:41 PM

Quote from: Stickan on March 16, 2018, 09:42:23 AM
Page 122 in the handbook shows how you hone a chisel freehand. I hone my knifes the same way.
I got a new Japanese knife some years ago, known to be sharp "out of the box". 5 days later my wife told me that I had to sharpen it. I honed it and it stayed sharp for weeks.
I told this to my friend who import these knifes and got the answer that all knifes has a little burr when new and honing will get them sharper.
I sharpen my knifes 1-2 times each year but hone them 3-5 times each year depending on quality of steel and angle I've played with.

Some month ago I got in contact with an Australian woodcarver who purchased a Tormek and was not very satisfied with the edge he got.
We had long discussions via Instagram and after a few weeks he really learned and had the time to test and play around so he got the edge he wanted and slightly more. When he purchased the SJ stone, I gave him the tip, same as your wrote, to put an extra degree on the angle-master when he was using the Japanese wheel.
He is a very talented spooncarver, you can follow him on Instagram,  spoon_carving_with _tom where he also share his view of sharpening in a honest way.

Sincerely,
Stig

Ah, OK.  Guess I was trying too hard. :)

I have seen that Instagram feed.  (Unfortunately, he's another guy who thinks "Instagram Live" is a good idea).  :-\  He seems like he's into stropping quite a bit (considering he evens sells strops).... do you recall anything specific on the leather honing wheel (not the SJ stone) that differed from stropping on a regular strop, that was different?

Thanks.

Send a message to him on Insta, he always answers. He is also a new member of the Forum so who knows, he might answer here.

Best,
Stig

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 16, 2018, 02:35:41 PM

Quote from: Stickan on March 16, 2018, 09:42:23 AM
Page 122 in the handbook shows how you hone a chisel freehand. I hone my knifes the same way.
I got a new Japanese knife some years ago, known to be sharp "out of the box". 5 days later my wife told me that I had to sharpen it. I honed it and it stayed sharp for weeks.
I told this to my friend who import these knifes and got the answer that all knifes has a little burr when new and honing will get them sharper.
I sharpen my knifes 1-2 times each year but hone them 3-5 times each year depending on quality of steel and angle I've played with.

Some month ago I got in contact with an Australian woodcarver who purchased a Tormek and was not very satisfied with the edge he got.
We had long discussions via Instagram and after a few weeks he really learned and had the time to test and play around so he got the edge he wanted and slightly more. When he purchased the SJ stone, I gave him the tip, same as your wrote, to put an extra degree on the angle-master when he was using the Japanese wheel.
He is a very talented spooncarver, you can follow him on Instagram,  spoon_carving_with _tom where he also share his view of sharpening in a honest way.

Sincerely,
Stig

Ah, OK.  Guess I was trying too hard. :)

I have seen that Instagram feed.  (Unfortunately, he's another guy who thinks "Instagram Live" is a good idea).  :-\  He seems like he's into stropping quite a bit (considering he evens sells strops).... do you recall anything specific on the leather honing wheel (not the SJ stone) that differed from stropping on a regular strop, that was different?

Thanks.

Hi,
Stropping is essential to keeping any tool sharp. Depending on which medium you use will depend on the results you will achieve.

Using flat strops with PA70 and a thick suede will give you a wonderful "draw" affect, a beautiful polish and a very sharp blade(so long as you have sharpened it correctly before) but will always put a micro-convexed edge on your tool - not good for scandi edged green wood working tools. It's fine for kitchen knives, EDC blades and any other blade with a secondary bevel.

Using very thin leather with high tensile strength (kangaroo) like I do for my strops ensures no micro-convexion will ever occur regardless of the pressure you apply and the amount of times you strop, with all the advantages stated above about the important draw affect associated with leather as well as a beautiful polish and of course a surgically sharp edge.

Stropping on wood works, but poorly when compared to the above two other methods. After the first pass or two, the wood becomes very slippery due to the inability of the wood to hold the compound. This - like applying too much oil to your honing wheel makes wood a pretty poor choice.

Cardboard again will work, but with similar affects of the wood and will soon tear.

Then you have the Tormek wheel which of course will polish a hollow ground bevel. It does a great job, and although its a thick leather and will cause micro convexion if you press too hard, with light pressure and the correct angle, you can get a great finish and can reduce the micro-convexion.

Once again, microconvexion on a secondary beveled knife isn't a problem... the bevel is so small that when you grind / sharpen again, it wont affect the tool and won't be noticeable.

Micro convecion is only a real issue on scandi grinds where a massive bevel and subsequently lots of metal, must be removed to get it back to a true flat grind...

Another point worth mentioning is you can strop a hollow ground tool on a flat surface, but the results of stropping a flat scandi tool on a wheel is less than ideal.

As for the Tormek wheels. The 220/1000 wheel isn't fine enough grit for the finish I aim for in carving - i never sand my work so the finish left by the tool has to be flawless. Since purchasing the 4k stone, my blades have never been sharper. I have spent over one and a half decades learning the skill of freehand sharpening and perfecting my technique. I have tried pretty much all mediums from Wet / Dry sandpaper through to Japanese waterstones. It is something I am very passionate about (and of course stropping) and it is something I have taught to people on many occasions, not to mention thousands on youtube. The results I get are beyond functional - an example (also shown on youtube) is cutting 1 single unsupported hair with a mora 106 after using sandpaper, 6k stone and strops.

This being said, frustratingly the Tormek gives me slightly better results after only a few months of use. By being able to apply more pressure to the 4k stone and in a more concentrated and direct fashion, it leaves a better mirror polish straight off the 4k stone...

The key question though is, is there a functionally noticeable difference when both blades are used for carving wood? No... 

It pops the hairs off my arms a little easier and I can feel that, when I pull my thumb across the edge it gives me that sensation that its removing (cleanly) microsopic layres of skin cells (did I say I'm obsessive?)

That being said, I use the tormek for the vast majority of my sharpening now days. The results are incredible, it's fast, effective, easy to learn (easier than freehand sharpening) the results are repeatable (with practice) and as mentioned above, I get a better finish off the stones. However I do use my Kangaroo strops over the wheel the vast majority of the time for the reasons mentioned above. I say vast majority of the time, because my kitchen knives get stropped on the wheel without a second thought (as mentioned, secondary bevel knives don't have this issue)

As for how often to strop, little and often is my advise... I went months between sharpening my carving axe and weeks with my knives between taking them back to the stones because stropping keeps that edge keen. The key is little and often! Don't let the blade lose that hair popping edge, strop before this happens. For carving, this means every 30-40 mins for me!

The key here is, I think we all have a missconception that the Tormek sharpens our knives for us, but as I have always said, the machine takes skill to use, especially for knives. I have messed up about 4 mora knives over the months through mistakes, but it's a learning curve for everyone! The guides that hold the tools are exactly that, guides, they will guide you but won't do the work for you. Maybe with the plane iron jig it might, but for knives and some other tools like bowl gouges with a variable profile etc, the user will have to control the positions. It will take time.

I can tell you now, there isn't anything wrong with the Tormek machines or Jigs I don't think, but we always blame the machine and jig before we blame ourselves..
I read another post about the SVM-45 jig and its "problems". I'll share my thoughts over there too.

Another thing, scandi bevels like that on the mora 106's are a whole lot harder than the small secondary bevels to sharpen well. Couple the large scandi bevel, the SVM-00 and the SVM-45 jigs and you need much more practise than you do just sharpening a kitchen knife, secondary bevel  and one svm-45 jig.
Things take time to learn, I bet a new learner driver wouldn't blame the car for not driving properly?
The Tormek works beautifully, it's the user that lets it down sadly (as much as we hate to admit it!)
The car will drive, but you have to practise how to do it, and it will drive beautifully if you can drive beautifully.

I wanted to pick the machine up and throw it across the room during the first few days through frustration, but the darn thing is just too friggin heavy. The next few days I continued to practise, each time I learn't something I didn't know before, It started to become an enjoyable process and even more rewarding and exciting. Then I couldn't stop myself sharpening every knife I could find!

Anyway this is my experience and two cents.. Lastly whats wrong with Instagram live?!  :o Maybe join me in the next video and I can show you how to use your Tormek, you may learn some tips and realise live videos are useful after all ;)

Welcome, Tom.

Thank you for a thoughtful post. It will take me a while to digest.  :)

Ken

Quote from: tomo2090 on March 16, 2018, 04:32:54 PM
Hi,
Stropping is essential to keeping any tool sharp. Depending on which medium you use will depend on the results you will achieve.

Using flat strops with PA70 and a thick suede will give you a wonderful "draw" affect, a beautiful polish and a very sharp blade(so long as you have sharpened it correctly before) but will always put a micro-convexed edge on your tool - not good for scandi edged green wood working tools. It's fine for kitchen knives, EDC blades and any other blade with a secondary bevel.

Using very thin leather with high tensile strength (kangaroo) like I do for my strops ensures no micro-convexion will ever occur regardless of the pressure you apply and the amount of times you strop, with all the advantages stated above about the important draw affect associated with leather as well as a beautiful polish and of course a surgically sharp edge.

Stropping on wood works, but poorly when compared to the above two other methods. After the first pass or two, the wood becomes very slippery due to the inability of the wood to hold the compound. This - like applying too much oil to your honing wheel makes wood a pretty poor choice.

Cardboard again will work, but with similar affects of the wood and will soon tear.

Then you have the Tormek wheel which of course will polish a hollow ground bevel. It does a great job, and although its a thick leather and will cause micro convexion if you press too hard, with light pressure and the correct angle, you can get a great finish and can reduce the micro-convexion.

Once again, microconvexion on a secondary beveled knife isn't a problem... the bevel is so small that when you grind / sharpen again, it wont affect the tool and won't be noticeable.

Micro convecion is only a real issue on scandi grinds where a massive bevel and subsequently lots of metal, must be removed to get it back to a true flat grind...

Another point worth mentioning is you can strop a hollow ground tool on a flat surface, but the results of stropping a flat scandi tool on a wheel is less than ideal.

As for the Tormek wheels. The 220/1000 wheel isn't fine enough grit for the finish I aim for in carving - i never sand my work so the finish left by the tool has to be flawless. Since purchasing the 4k stone, my blades have never been sharper. I have spent over one and a half decades learning the skill of freehand sharpening and perfecting my technique. I have tried pretty much all mediums from Wet / Dry sandpaper through to Japanese waterstones. It is something I am very passionate about (and of course stropping) and it is something I have taught to people on many occasions, not to mention thousands on youtube. The results I get are beyond functional - an example (also shown on youtube) is cutting 1 single unsupported hair with a mora 106 after using sandpaper, 6k stone and strops.

This being said, frustratingly the Tormek gives me slightly better results after only a few months of use. By being able to apply more pressure to the 4k stone and in a more concentrated and direct fashion, it leaves a better mirror polish straight off the 4k stone...

The key question though is, is there a functionally noticeable difference when both blades are used for carving wood? No... 

It pops the hairs off my arms a little easier and I can feel that, when I pull my thumb across the edge it gives me that sensation that its removing (cleanly) microsopic layres of skin cells (did I say I'm obsessive?)

That being said, I use the tormek for the vast majority of my sharpening now days. The results are incredible, it's fast, effective, easy to learn (easier than freehand sharpening) the results are repeatable (with practice) and as mentioned above, I get a better finish off the stones. However I do use my Kangaroo strops over the wheel the vast majority of the time for the reasons mentioned above. I say vast majority of the time, because my kitchen knives get stropped on the wheel without a second thought (as mentioned, secondary bevel knives don't have this issue)

As for how often to strop, little and often is my advise... I went months between sharpening my carving axe and weeks with my knives between taking them back to the stones because stropping keeps that edge keen. The key is little and often! Don't let the blade lose that hair popping edge, strop before this happens. For carving, this means every 30-40 mins for me!

The key here is, I think we all have a missconception that the Tormek sharpens our knives for us, but as I have always said, the machine takes skill to use, especially for knives. I have messed up about 4 mora knives over the months through mistakes, but it's a learning curve for everyone! The guides that hold the tools are exactly that, guides, they will guide you but won't do the work for you. Maybe with the plane iron jig it might, but for knives and some other tools like bowl gouges with a variable profile etc, the user will have to control the positions. It will take time.

I can tell you now, there isn't anything wrong with the Tormek machines or Jigs I don't think, but we always blame the machine and jig before we blame ourselves..
I read another post about the SVM-45 jig and its "problems". I'll share my thoughts over there too.

Another thing, scandi bevels like that on the mora 106's are a whole lot harder than the small secondary bevels to sharpen well. Couple the large scandi bevel, the SVM-00 and the SVM-45 jigs and you need much more practise than you do just sharpening a kitchen knife, secondary bevel  and one svm-45 jig.
Things take time to learn, I bet a new learner driver wouldn't blame the car for not driving properly?
The Tormek works beautifully, it's the user that lets it down sadly (as much as we hate to admit it!)
The car will drive, but you have to practise how to do it, and it will drive beautifully if you can drive beautifully.

I wanted to pick the machine up and throw it across the room during the first few days through frustration, but the darn thing is just too friggin heavy. The next few days I continued to practise, each time I learn't something I didn't know before, It started to become an enjoyable process and even more rewarding and exciting. Then I couldn't stop myself sharpening every knife I could find!

Anyway this is my experience and two cents.. Lastly whats wrong with Instagram live?!  :o Maybe join me in the next video and I can show you how to use your Tormek, you may learn some tips and realise live videos are useful after all ;)

Thanks for the reply... some good info.

Instagram Live... Biggest gripe is it 'disappears'.  Other things I don't like especially for a training video... very little control (for example you can't pause to see something), most of the time it's inconvenient, etc.  I think it's great for showing something noone will care about in 24 hours anyway... but for a training video... throw a copy up on YouTube, and I'd get more out of it.  (Doesn't have to be edited, etc. like you said in an IG post... content to me is more important).  My .02... I'm sure it would be beneficial and I'd learn something if I saw one... it just seems a bit of a waste for training video stuff.

One thing I thought of in going thru this thread again... I guess there's different levels of honing or stropping that might make it somewhat confusing.  For me, I often "hone" just enough to remove a burr, and maybe refine the edge just a tad... which, while it can be done on a strop, I also may do on the sharpening stone itself, or something like a ceramic rod.  More stropping or honing further refines the edge, this is often done on leather or other items mentioned (SJ wheel for example)... and then you get to "polishing" where the effort is to remove the grind marks of the previous stone(s), and refine the edge as much as possible to the level it's being honed at.  All have their place.

And you're right about the Tormek... it's not "plug and play" like some think it should be... but it's fun to use, and gives great results once a person gets the hang of it. 👍

I would like to begin to add my two cents to a few of the many good areas this topic addresses.

First, instagram videos. I confess total ingorance concerning instagram (and facebook). That's my problem. I have a big problem with useful videos which disappear. There was supposedly a one day wonder video on instagram about the new Tormek diamond wheels and multi base. Not being an instagram user, I missed it. I have heard that it was very informative, more so than the material posted on the Tormek website. I have no problem with posting videos on instagram or facebook, however, why must this be an either or situation? I continue learning from you tubes made by Jeff Farris in the SuperGrind era. If a training video disappears after a day, why bother?

Incidentally, if you could pm me a link where I could watch your videos, I would enjoy watching them.

Now that I am off of my soapbox, I would like to mention hollow grinding. Many years ago, I used my six inch dry grinder to create hollow grinds and switched to stones with the two contact points and microbevels. The small grinder creates very visible hollows. In theory, the larger Tormek wheels do,  also. However, in my opinion, the amount of hollow from the large diameter wheels is negligable.  I mention this in the spirit of conversation, not debate. I would welcome your thoughts on this.

Duty calls; I must close for now.

Ken

a number of years ago I bought a Delta Sharpening Center

(https://i.imgur.com/AlRWWaU.png)

some what the same Idea as the work sharp,
I had a few bench grinders, but for the wood working tools I have found this a nice tool to have, I have sharpened planer knives, jointer knives, chainsaws, chisels and other on it, and reserve it for sharpening only, the white wheel is to fine for heavy removal of stock,

I would want a bench grinder as well, possibly if it was just the wood shop the sharpening center (https://wisepick.org/best-chainsaw-sharpener/) would do and a 4" grinder for the occasional other things one would get into,

but I have a few 6 bench grinders for various wheels, and I have a buffing station for "honing" I use a polishing compound on the buffing wheel and after bringing things to a sharp point one can put a razor edge on them with the buffer,

I have a grinder with the normal coarse and fine wheels and wire brush etc,

for planer or jointer knives I think you need some thing like the work sharp or the delta sharpening center and some type of guide system for accuracy

Quote from: Ken S on March 15, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
The gold standard of kitchen cutlery use seems to be slicing tomatoes. With tomatoes, the oft quoted term is "toothiness". Among the ways to obtain this toothy quality is to begin with a very sharp knife and use a ceramic rod to add the toothiness (degrade the edge slightly).

The Tormek demonstration of cutting a tomato into very thin slices without touching it makes me think this issue may have more than meets the eye.I would be curious to see this demonstration (performed with both sharprning methods) on the twentieth tomato.

I believe we may have some confusion with word usage. To me, toothiness means a slightly unpolished edge designed to snag things like tomato skins. While they may be close cousins, I think of burr as the mostly ground surface of an edge which should be removed, either in the sharpening process or in eating the food if it is left on the knife. (not the most pleasant thought) 

I would expect a very expert (and priced accordingly) sharpener to be able to vary his sharpening to meed the individual customer's expectations, if the customer desired that. I see these questions as part of the learning process which will make all of us more skilled sharpeners.

Ken

I think cutting a tomato horizontally is demonstrating something no one will ever does in actual usage. Edges having a tooth is also one of the myths that is debunked in Wootz's book on deburring. I have found that knives sharpened and properly deburred using Wootz's technique glide through tomatoes with almost no force and probably more importantly retain their edge longer. I have an Italian chef as a customer and she cuts more tomatoes than most. She has told me that in all her years on the line she has never had knives that are so sharp and that stay so sharp using her smooth steel. To me this means more than watching people cut a tomato or pieces of paper of various thicknesses. This can be achieved using the standard wheel and leather hone as demonstrated in this thread:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3936.0

Having seen the results of proper deburring I will continue to use these practices on all the knives I sharpen.

I have been amazed with the innovations and advances in Tormek sharpening in the ten years I have owned a Tormek. These advances in both technique and equipment have come both from Tormek and from members of this forum.

I have noticed an increased interest in things like diamond and CBN wheels; SJ wheels; paper wheels; various honing compounds; and VFBs. While these are all useful, none of them is a magic bullet. If you study carefully the you tubes of members Wootz and Sharpco, you will see careful, practiced technique.

Nor do any of these advances in technique and equipment diminish the value of the basic Tormek technique and equipment. Whether for home use or a sharpening business, the bulk of knife sharpening is still being done in the traditional Tormek manner. A very well established sharpener may be able to command premium prices for premium knives, however, few customers appreciate the extra time and skill involved in top shelf sharpening, nor are most customers willing to pay enough to justify a lot of special sharpening equipment.

I believe the percentage of sharpening with high tech will increase over the years. I do not see it replacing the standard technique or gear.

Ken

Quote from: Ken S on June 03, 2019, 11:50:27 PM
A very well established sharpener may be able to command premium prices for premium knives, however, few customers appreciate the extra time and skill involved in top shelf sharpening, nor are most customers willing to pay enough to justify a lot of special sharpening equipment.

I believe the percentage of sharpening with high tech will increase over the years. I do not see it replacing the standard technique or gear.

Ken

I just wanted to chime in on what Ken said. Where I live at least it seems like most people aren't appreciative of a premium edge. Maybe its due to their lack of knowledge on the subject, but they seem to rather pay someone 5 bucks to sharpen and polish their knives on a belt sander with subpar results rather than paying a small premium for a tormek finished knife. So far I'm the only one on our island offering this service so perhaps word will spread and people will come around to the idea of better quality knife sharpening.

Quote from: Antz on June 04, 2019, 04:23:05 AM
... I'm the only one on our island offering this service ...

Which island?

Kind regards,
Rich

Big island of Hawaii. Our population is about 190,000 on the island.

Antz

I remember hearing years ago that Hawaii received federal funds for snow removal. (Our tax dollars at work  :o
I trust snow removal is not a major problem for you.

Ken

That's weird as we literally get NO snow  :o . Only snow is on the summits and don't see a reason for clearing that. Any way sorry for hijacking your thread for a minute Rich.

Antz

Quote from: Antz on June 05, 2019, 08:35:28 PM
That's weird as we literally get NO snow  :o . Only snow is on the summits and don't see a reason for clearing that. Any way sorry for hijacking your thread for a minute Rich.

Antz

That is to keep the states allocations fair, goes along with Colorado's coastal erosion defense fund a Alaska's drought reserves.

I did quite fancy a diamond wheel at one point, however I primarily maintain a sharp edge on HSS wood turning tools, and occasionally resharpen the kitchen knives, I don't sharpen things for other people or have a great range of things to work on, Very occasionally I will get a new tool and want to change it from a 45 degree to a 55 degree and will moan about the slowness of the standard wheel, but once done it stays as 55 forever, and it's back to polishing up to sharpness again.

TT,

I too mostly sharpen turning tools.  I've found that reshaping the tool is fastest done on the traditional bench grinder with a BGM-100 attachment.  The HSS will tolerate the heat well (still have to manage it, but it isn't as critical as with knives).

I just inherited a bunch of my grandfather's old Buck steel wood turning tools.  I reshaped them to my liking on the bench grinder, being VERY cautious to manage the heat.  Then I was able to immediately jump over to the Tormek using the same jig and get to work.

I have an old Tormek T-2000, and I'd upgraded to the USB with the micro adjust, so I have a second USB.  The old one is used on the bench grinder with the BGM-100.

By the way, I find that the SVD-110 makes a great platform for the bench grinder.  It is what I use when re-sharpening my scrapers as they have carbide inserts.  Works fast & gives a great burr!

So, my approach is

• Shape:  bench grinder with BGM-100 & whatever jig is appropriate
• Sharpen:  Tormek & whatever jig is appropriate
• Hone:  Paper wheels, or Tormek with SJ grindstone (& whatever jig is appropriate)

You can get more information on my SharpeningHandbook.  (The process information for each type of tool is available via the icons which are little circles with an "i" in the middle of the circle.)  But, for your convenience, here is a direct link to the page :  http://www.sharpeninghandbook.info/Info-WoodLatheTools.html

Kind regards,
Rich


P.S., Antz, please don't worry.  I'm not offended — there are plenty of worse things you could do to me.

So here's a question for those of us on a budget. If you could only have one tormek diamond wheel, which wheel would cover the most ground and be the most useful as a stand-alone wheel? Would it be the course followed my SG wheel then stropping? Or fine diamond wheel followed directly by stropping or the extra fine then strop? I'm wondering if there is a consensus on which wheel would be the best if you could only afford one.

Thanks,
Antz

Antz,

I recently had a conversation about this very topic with one of Tormek's top knife sharpening experts.
He has access to all of Tormek's grinding wheels, so his answer had no budgetary constraints. His answer was very clear, The SG. He recommends using plenty of pressure and plenty of PA-70 honing compound with the leather honing wheel.

I would add that he has plenty of Tormek knife sharpening experience.

From prior correspondence I know that he usesthe SG graded on the fine side and that he finishes his grinding with very light pressure.

I believe you will find almost all items in farmers market sharpening fall within the range of the SG. Steve Bottorff has used eight worn out wheels to weight down his shade cover. How many times have those wheels paid for themselves?

Ken

Antz,

Ken is spot on. 

Also, I stand behind what I wrote in this post :  https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3805.0 

Kind regards,
Rich

Antz, I have been lusting after Diamond Wheels since they were announced. Luckily for me I discovered Wootz's deburring techniques discussed here:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Knife_Deburring_book.pdf

I have been achieving incredible sharpness without ever having to change a wheel. I do think my investment and use of Wootz's FVB has taken honing to another level. Being able to accurately control the honing angle is a great improvement. You can hone without it but your results will not be as accurate or repeatable. Also if you are doing a lot of knives most can be done at one USB setting if you control the knife placement in the jig. See threads on kenjig and USB software.

My sites are now shifted to an additional leather wheel and 1 micron honing paste. To be honest this is not at the top of my list. I am considering a Viel belt grinder https://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/belt.htm

In addition to blade repair this will make quick work finishing replacement or custom scales. I can see many other uses for this in the shop.

John, Ken, Rich

Thank you for the responses. I don't think I'll be getting a diamond wheel anytime soon. Not at least before I get a Veil belt sander. I was just thinking for those of us who just "must have" something just to have it the 600 grit fine diamond wheel would be a good middle ground if you could only have one. 

Also I do have a kindle version of Wootz book and that's the exact system I'm trying to accomplish. I've been skipping the leather honing wheel and going straight to paper wheels after the SG stone and I've never hade knives so sharp. I am only using the supplied white compound that comes with the razor sharp system but I plan on getting a second slotted wheel to use .25 micron diamond paste for the final honing pass to take things to another level.

John,
so when you say you have your sights set on a second leather honing wheel do you mean you will be swapping out honing wheels on the t8? For instance initial deburring on one leather wheel with tormek compound, then swap it out for final deburring on a second leather wheel with diamond paste?

I see that you want a Viel belt sander. Why? Is that brand special? Thanx

Jeff,
For me it's because it's affordable, can be used horizontal or vertical, and can be converted to variable speed which will help not over heat whatever it is your grinding. I'm sure someone else can add more. At first I was looking at getting a Kalamazoo until a few more experienced forum members pointed me towards the Veil.

Antz

Antz,

"I was just thinking for those of us who just "must have" something just to have it the 600 grit fine diamond wheel would be a good middle ground if you could only have one."

For anyone who wants to sharpen knives, especially anyone on a tight budget, here is what is "must have" in my opinion:
A Tormek, any model, with the Original SG grinding wheel.
The standard Tormek knife jig.
The TT-50 truing tool and stone grader

Very close to must have:
Tormek long knife jig
Tormek small blade tool

Close to must have:
Sharpening School DVD from sharpeningmadeeasy.com
homemade small platform based on the platform of the scissors jig

Extra grinding wheels only if your desire to spend money outweighs you budget thoughts.

I do not mean to be blunt; I do mean to be plainspoken.

Ken

Ken,

You are absolutely correct about everything you said. No offense taken whatsoever. I'm just speaking for myself. Sometimes I get ahead of myself and buy things just for the "want" factor and not the need factor. I technically don't "need" anything else for knife sharpening. It comes down to basically just wanting something. It's good that you post your honest opinions, gives people like myself a reason to stop and think about if I should really buy something I don't necessarily need to accomplish the task at hand. I'm not that financially well off that I should be buying a set of diamond wheels just to have them. I already went overboard and have all the jigs (hand tool kit, wood turners kit, drill big jig, planer blade jig) So thank you for your comments, sometimes I need to be kept in check. Keep them coming.

Thanks,
Antz

Antz, I am glad you are not offended; that was never my intention. I am certainly not "holier than thou" when it comes to purchasing Tormek gear. (By last count, I have something like  nineteen wheels for my Tormeks, much more than anyone needs.)  ???

I recognize the symptoms of need versus want.

My only defense for so many wheels is researching things for the forum.

Ken

Antz, I researched the Viel and as shipped the motor is not variable speed. Further, the folks at the dealer wrote that they could not find a variable speed motor for a good price. They also indicated that a more powerful motor would not perform better. The motor is 1/4 horsepower. Shipping to GA USA was $20, may be more to you in HI.

Jeff,

The Viel is essentially sold without a motor. The variable speed motor is from Penn State Industries. It is primarily designed for small lathes, however, it works very well with the Viel, but only if the Viel is modified. Here is a link to one of the discussions covering this on bessex.com.

http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=310

Viel, or any dealer except sharpeningmadeeasy.com does not have any information about the modified Viel. The bore diameter of the Viel pulleys is half inch (slightly larger than 12 mm). The diameter of the PSI motor shaft is 15 mm. A machine shop can either bore out the pulley or reduce the shaft diameter.
The Viel comes with a six inch diameter drive pulley. Viel also sells a 3 3/4" pulley as a part. (I believe this is the standard pulley for their smaller belt grinder.) The smaller pulley works more efficiently with variable speed.
A custom mounting bracket is required.

I have done a couple conversions "from scratch". I do not recommend doing it this way. It was difficult, frustrating, and expensive. Steve Bottorff at sharpeningmadeeasy.com is a Viel dealer. He has made an arrangement with Viel to provide units with the smaller pulley bored out to 15mm for a very modest surcharge. He also sells the custom mounting plates designed by the bessex group.

Steve's modified Viel and mounting plates have changed conversion from a machine shop project to something easily done in a home shop with an electric drill at much lower cost.

Antz, just before writing this post, I checked the sharpeningmadeeasy website. The Viel conversion page was not there. Nor was an explanation. I will be emailing Steve for clarification. At this point, I would strongly recommend postponing purchasing a Viel until we are certain that the components are available from Steve.

The unmodified Viel is a useful tool as is. In my opinion, the modified version is much more versatile and a useful complement to the Tormek. Using a Scotch Brite extra fine belt on the Viel makes quick work of removing rust and staining in preparation for sharpening with the Tormek.

The modified version is worth the wait.There are several related topics on bessex. I suggest you study them.

Ken

PS Full disclosure: Although I was not the first bessex member to use a modified Viel, I was actively involved in the conversion process and wrote up the conversion to share with the group. I have no financial interest in the project. I have always regarded the Viel as a complement to the Tormek, as does Steve. As such, I do not mind briefly mentioning it on the Tormek forum. As it is not a Tormek profuct, I would prefer that any further discusdion be moved to bessex.com.

Quote from: Antz on June 11, 2019, 08:54:35 PM
John, Ken, Rich

Thank you for the responses. I don't think I'll be getting a diamond wheel anytime soon. Not at least before I get a Veil belt sander. I was just thinking for those of us who just "must have" something just to have it the 600 grit fine diamond wheel would be a good middle ground if you could only have one. 

Also I do have a kindle version of Wootz book and that's the exact system I'm trying to accomplish. I've been skipping the leather honing wheel and going straight to paper wheels after the SG stone and I've never hade knives so sharp. I am only using the supplied white compound that comes with the razor sharp system but I plan on getting a second slotted wheel to use .25 micron diamond paste for the final honing pass to take things to another level.

John,
so when you say you have your sights set on a second leather honing wheel do you mean you will be swapping out honing wheels on the t8? For instance initial deburring on one leather wheel with tormek compound, then swap it out for final deburring on a second leather wheel with diamond paste?

I was thinking about swapping out the honing wheels to utilize the fine honing compound. Lately I have been questioning this as the knives I do for customers are amazingly sharp. No one has asked if I can get them even sharper. I wonder if it is an exercise without much benefit. I do not have a BESS tester so there is really no easy way of even demonstrating the difference. Customers have told me slicing food has gone from a chore to a joy, especially tomatoes.

Good point, John.

We should be aware of the expectation levels of the people whose knives we sharpen. Using Knife Grinders as an example, Vadim sharpens knives for professional meat cutters, who probably use their knives more in a work shift than most of us do in multiple years. He also sharpens expensive knives for very particular customers who demand that their drawer queen knives be sharpened to supersonic BESS numbers before probably returning to the drawer.

Vadim's trailblazing work, like a riding tide, has floated all boats. However, the farmers market sharpener who sharpens a hundred knives on a Saturday morning still exceeds his customers' expectations. I would suggest doing a yeoman job sharpening your customers' knives while being aware of more advanced techniques when needed. I suspect this is also the most common way the SJ wheel is used.

Ken

Jeff,

Sorry I should have been more clear on my answer. The variable speed Veil is a custom machine that you would have to put together yourself as Ken stated. Steve's sight at sharpeningmadeeasy.com is the only place that sells the mounting plate and pulley for the modified Veil and you would have to order the motor and controller separately. But the cost is not extravagant. Ken just posted that the link on sharpening made easy sight was missing but lucky for me I bookmarked it https://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/belt.htm

The variable speed version is listed under "DIY sander specials"

You might want to send Steve Botoroff an e-mail to check if he has the parts in stock as that could be why he took the link down.

Antz

Quote from: Ken S on June 12, 2019, 05:02:13 PM
... We should be aware of the expectation levels of the people whose knives we sharpen ...

Ken's comment warrants further consideration.  I'm a manager of a group which provides IT "services" to "customers".  Some of my customers are willing to pay for gold level service; others want only the basics (iron level).  But we think in terms of 3 levels:  Gold, Silver, and Bronze (like the Olympic medals).

For sharpening, maybe it could be:

• GOLD - Sharpened to a BESS rating <100, and BESS results provided.  This would have to be done in a manner where the customer leaves the item with the sharpener, and the commitment is to get it back in a week (or more).
• SILVER - Sharpened to a really good level of sharpness, typically shown to be something in the level of BESS level of 100-200.  BESS results not provided — rely only on the good reputation of the sharpener.  Possibly, this would be done offsite (if the sharpener is collecting work at a farmer's market).
• BRONZE - Sharpened to a decent level, and sharpening would happen whilst the customer waits.  I'd envision this to be for pocket knives or similar.

The benefit to this approach is that the customer would pay for the level of service they want, and the cost would be based on the cost to the sharpener and the time commitment of the sharpener. 

So, if all of your target market want SILVER or BRONZE level sharpening, then the sharpener need not invest in the tools req'd to provide GOLD level service.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

Kind regards,
Rich

Ken,
Yes farmers market work should be a balance between quality and speed (bronze level). Higher end sharpening for particular people I would probably do on a weekend or at home. But thanks to Wootz work (and others) we can all have that premium level available at a premium price.

Rich,
I love the way you laid out the gold/silver/bronze service comparison. Now if I could only fit that all on a business card...

Thanks,
Antz