Here is a chef knife that has never been sharpened by Tormek and has minor chipping (abt 0.5mm). How much time do you need to completely sharpen it with Tormek?
I love Tormek but not satisfied with the grinding speed. I ask this question to find out whether this is due to my lack of skills or the limitations of Tormek. I will take 6-8 minutes.(From shaping to honing)
In my opinion the time needed to sharpen a knife depends among other things on the steel hardness, its grindability and also on the type and state of your grindstone. Some additional time is necessary for correct mounting of the blade into the knife jig.
If the steel has an average hardness (some 55 HRC) I will need approximately the same time as you. However if the steel is really hard (60 HRC and more), than my time would be significantly longer.
In doubts about steel hardness I use Hardness Testing File Set which enables rough estimate of the Rockwell hardness from 40 HRC to 65 HRC.
Jan
5 minutes is not unreasonable to make a repair of this magnitude. 0.5 mm along a full blade is a lot of metal tp remove. But at 6 to 8 minutes I would say you were not pressing hard enough. That takes practice and confidence, but it is the secret of faster grinding on a Tormek.
Jan and Steve,
Excellent comments.
Ken
Quote from: sharpco on November 13, 2017, 09:48:17 AM
Here is a chef knife that has never been sharpened by Tormek and has minor chipping (abt 0.5mm). How much time do you need to completely sharpen it with Tormek?
I love Tormek but not satisfied with the grinding speed. I ask this question to find out whether this is due to my lack of skills or the limitations of Tormek. I will take 6-8 minutes.(From shaping to honing)
On average, I try and use 5 minutes as a goal, no matter how I sharpen. (Obviously, some knives need a little more, some less). If it starts taking longer than that, I look at what can I do to different.
In the case of the Tormek, a few suggestions (as usual, in no particular order)...
- Keep the stone graded "coarse" or in its "natural state"... don't grade it fine.
- Use an alternative to the leather wheel. On most knives, I use a ceramic rod... it's quick and very efficient.
- Learn to freehand sharpen. Much quicker than using the jig.
- If using the jig, use the top support (wheel turning into the edge), and maybe use a bit more pressure.
- Make repairs at a higher angle than sharpening. Especially grinding out chips or tip repairs, I'll freehand grind between 45-90 deg. to make the repair, then sharpen.
Also, evaluate what you're doing the most of, and consider alternate equipment if needed. For example, if most knives you get need some type of repair, it might be worth it to invest in a belt sander. Some use a paper wheel to finish an edge. Steve (sharpeningmadeeasy.com), has a lot of ideas along this line in his "Sharpening School in a Box" (http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/video.htm) package. If all you're sharpening is cheap kitchen knives that are abused... might be better to just use a belt sander for that.
Finally, (and this is just a suggestion, since I don't know your situation)... consider emphasizing the fact that you use a slow water cooled sharpener... and maybe charge a bit more to offset the difference?
Just some ideas to consider.
I agree with CB about charging a bit more. The damage to the knife, at .5mm is obvious to the naked eye. More time is required to repair this damage than for regular sharpening. I would think most customers would understand this situation and be willing to pay a reasonable surcharge. (Keep it reasonable to keep the customer.) They have probably saved more than the surcharge by not being more regular with sharpening.
Ken
Quote from: stevebot on November 13, 2017, 03:08:47 PM
5 minutes is not unreasonable to make a repair of this magnitude. 0.5 mm along a full blade is a lot of metal tp remove. But at 6 to 8 minutes I would say you were not pressing hard enough. That takes practice and confidence, but it is the secret of faster grinding on a Tormek.
You are right. Pressing harder allows faster repair. In this case, can I use Black stone instead of Original stone to save time?
Quote from: cbwx34 on November 13, 2017, 03:20:19 PM
Also, evaluate what you're doing the most of, and consider alternate equipment if needed. For example, if most knives you get need some type of repair, it might be worth it to invest in a belt sander. Some use a paper wheel to finish an edge. Steve (sharpeningmadeeasy.com), has a lot of ideas along this line in his "Sharpening School in a Box" (http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/video.htm) package. If all you're sharpening is cheap kitchen knives that are abused... might be better to just use a belt sander for that.
Finally, (and this is just a suggestion, since I don't know your situation)... consider emphasizing the fact that you use a slow water cooled sharpener... and maybe charge a bit more to offset the difference?
You're right. It would be better if I could use a belt sander. But I chose Tormek because I work in a small space and I hate dust. So I would like to use only Tormek if possible. But if it can be done in 5 minutes, it does not seem bad.
The extra charge seems to be a good idea. However, it would be better to charge an additional cost for repair than to use Tormek.
Quote from: sharpco on November 13, 2017, 11:02:44 PM
You're right. It would be better if I could use a belt sander. But I chose Tormek because I work in a small space and I hate dust. So I would like to use only Tormek if possible. But if it can be done in 5 minutes, it does not seem bad.
The extra charge seems to be a good idea. However, it would be better to charge an additional cost for repair than to use Tormek.
Lack of dust is definitely a plus... one of the main advantages of the Tormek that is often overlooked.
I think we are spending too much time discussing one knife. Let's imagine a "typical" sharpening job. For ease of calculating, let's say you sharpen ten knives. Included is the chef's knife with the minor damage. Chances are that the other nine will be at various stages of dullness. Assuming that you are using a kenjig of Wootz' computer program, set up will be fast. You will probably use only one bevel angle, or at most two. The wheel diameter will remain constant. You already have your grinding wheel trued and graded.
Some of the ten knives may sharpen very quickly. Some will need an "average" time. Some, like this chef's knife will take longer. If ten knives take half an hour, your average time is three minutes. I believe most customers would think a surcharge would be reasonable for something obvious, like a broken tip or major grinding time due to poor sharpening in the past. If the other knives look average or better, a customer would appreciate a very modest or, even better, foregoing a charge. You could tell the customer that since he brought several knives, or is a regular customer, you will forego the extra repair charge. You will make up the time/cost on the easier knives. Even better, this customer may become a repeat customer. Be sure to politely share some knife care suggestions to help prevent future damage and make his knives cut better and last longer.
I have never sharpened professionally. I have served customers for thirty five years as a telephone installation/repair technician. As a customer, I am a loyal repeat customer to business people who are competent and treat me well. If I get quality workmanship at a fair price, I am reluctant to go across the street for a cheaper price.
You have asked a pertinent question. Keep up the good work.
Ken
ps Like you, I also appreciate the Tormek's dust free environment.
Quote from: Ken S on November 14, 2017, 11:07:39 AM
I think we are spending too much time discussing one knife. Let's imagine a "typical" sharpening job. For ease of calculating, let's say you sharpen ten knives. Included is the chef's knife with the minor damage. Chances are that the other nine will be at various stages of dullness. Assuming that you are using a kenjig of Wootz' computer program, set up will be fast. You will probably use only one bevel angle, or at most two. The wheel diameter will remain constant. You already have your grinding wheel trued and graded.
Some of the ten knives may sharpen very quickly. Some will need an "average" time. Some, like this chef's knife will take longer. If ten knives take half an hour, your average time is three minutes. I believe most customers would think a surcharge would be reasonable for something obvious, like a broken tip or major grinding time due to poor sharpening in the past. If the other knives look average or better, a customer would appreciate a very modest or, even better, foregoing a charge. You could tell the customer that since he brought several knives, or is a regular customer, you will forego the extra repair charge. You will make up the time/cost on the easier knives. Even better, this customer may become a repeat customer. Be sure to politely share some knife care suggestions to help prevent future damage and make his knives cut better and last longer.
I have never sharpened professionally. I have served customers for thirty five years as a telephone installation/repair technician. As a customer, I am a loyal repeat customer to business people who are competent and treat me well. If I get quality workmanship at a fair price, I am reluctant to go across the street for a cheaper price.
You have asked a pertinent question. Keep up the good work.
Ken
ps Like you, I also appreciate the Tormek's dust free environment.
Very good point. I think pricing is one of the biggest hurdle in commercial sharpening, especially if you're not running a "knife rental" type business. Most do seem to settle in on a "law of averages" pricing structure.
Quote from: Ken S on November 14, 2017, 11:07:39 AM
I think we are spending too much time discussing one knife. Let's imagine a "typical" sharpening job. For ease of calculating, let's say you sharpen ten knives. Included is the chef's knife with the minor damage. Chances are that the other nine will be at various stages of dullness. Assuming that you are using a kenjig of Wootz' computer program, set up will be fast. You will probably use only one bevel angle, or at most two. The wheel diameter will remain constant. You already have your grinding wheel trued and graded.
Some of the ten knives may sharpen very quickly. Some will need an "average" time. Some, like this chef's knife will take longer. If ten knives take half an hour, your average time is three minutes. I believe most customers would think a surcharge would be reasonable for something obvious, like a broken tip or major grinding time due to poor sharpening in the past. If the other knives look average or better, a customer would appreciate a very modest or, even better, foregoing a charge. You could tell the customer that since he brought several knives, or is a regular customer, you will forego the extra repair charge. You will make up the time/cost on the easier knives. Even better, this customer may become a repeat customer. Be sure to politely share some knife care suggestions to help prevent future damage and make his knives cut better and last longer.
I have never sharpened professionally. I have served customers for thirty five years as a telephone installation/repair technician. As a customer, I am a loyal repeat customer to business people who are competent and treat me well. If I get quality workmanship at a fair price, I am reluctant to go across the street for a cheaper price.
You have asked a pertinent question. Keep up the good work.
Ken
ps Like you, I also appreciate the Tormek's dust free environment.
Careful Ken. Go sharpen 10 different brand chef's knives, and you will find not all their blades are identical in width. That does affect the angle on the stone and where freehand makes speed easier.
I found out that sharpening knives for my friends restaurant. Granted, I typically pick them up at the end of their business day, and sharpen them that night, returning them the next morning, so a few more minutes to set up doesn't bother me. (nor do the free meals)
Similarly to Ken I am not sharpening professionally. My reward for sharpening a set of six chef's knives are two bottles of good French vine. :)
When sharpening for traditional domestic pig slaughter I require some meat products – white pudding and blood sausage. ;)
Jan
Jan,
I like your compensation. :)
Ken
Today I had the honor of sharpening for Cleveland's premier test cook and food stylist. I'm retired but make exceptions for family and friends, especially one as pretty and talented as Heidi. Her knives are never in bad shape and the 4 took about 10 min while we listened to my wife practice Gershwin's Blue Lullaby.
Quote from: stevebot on November 15, 2017, 03:56:30 AM
Today I had the honor of sharpening for Cleveland's premier test cook and food stylist. I'm retired but make exceptions for family and friends, especially one as pretty and talented as Heidi. Her knives are never in bad shape and the 4 took about 10 min while we listened to my wife practice Gershwin's Blue Lullaby.
Steve, thanks for sharing this nice story of enviable compliance. :)
The tempos of lullabies are usually slow, but your sharpening tempo was brisk.
Jan