From time to time the issue of forum rules pops up. I have never seen any forum rules spelled out. In fact, I do not believe we have any rules.
We seem to have an unwritten gentlemen's agreement that disagreements will be handled in a courteous manner, which I like.
I believe it was Herman who made the comment that we are guests (of Tormek AB) on this forum. Well stated. I do not interpret that to mean that no mention of non Tormek products is allowed. Nor do I think that might mean that any critical comments about Tormek or its products are allowed. I have made comments critical of both Tormek and some of its products. I have always tried to state these in a constructive and fair way. I have also made positive comments when questions were posted about competitors' products, when I feel that those products deserve positive comments. That, to me, is the meaning of being a good guest.
I also feel that as a good guest, I should feel free to be honest with the host. I have on occasion expressed concerns about Tormek and its products privately with Stig. I would not do anything which I felt would embarrass him with corporate Tormek. That would not be fair to him. Those of you who have followed my posts know that I have occasionally been very critical of Tormek's marketing department and corporate for what I consider insufficient training aids.
Personally I feel more discussion of non Tormek products would benefit both the forum members and Tormek itself. I tried to get a topic going where members would describe a tool they felt was useful in sharpening. I described a set of diamond hones. Another member described a special plane iron screwdriver from Lee Valley. I have recommended mill files from time to time.
More recently I have mentioned my use of valve grinding compound as an adjunct to honing compound. i did this with the full knowledge of Tormek (Tormek provided the extra leather honing wheel.) I feel this is a useful addition to the traditional Tormek technique. It is not an alternative; it is complementary.
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I believe Tormek deserves to read these comments. The comments should be constructive and courteous, however, Tormek will grow stronger from listening to its loyal critics.
The issue with Jeff Farris and Herman's jig was not the jig itself. Herman dubbed it the "HK-50". I thought it was a clever designation. Jeff thought it might be confused with an official Tormek jig name. Several members asked Herman to make jigs for them. As far as I know, Herman has chosen to post instructions and let each member make his own.
Robin Bailey devised a taller universal support bar. He did this for his own use to assist in sharpening cleavers. He offered to have some made up for forum members if he could get ten orders. He only had one taker (me). I felt this was an unfortunate loss of a useful tool. i interpreted Robin's efforts as a desire to share a good idea with the forum.
In the same sentiment, I feel Steve's posting of a tool to verify sharpness as a service to the forum. True, he happens to sell them. However, I do not think his motives were blatantly commercial. He is a true expert knife sharpener, the most experienced knife man I have ever met. My impression of him, based on actual meeting, is that he is an honest, straight shooter. If he recommends a product, it is because it is of value to the forum. I was saddened that he felt the need to pull his post.
I, for one, am in favor of having no formal rules. We have operated as gentlemen (and ladies) for many years, and i hope we will continue to do so.
Ken
I'm a member of a number of more generic woodworking forums than this. I like and value the "village" atmosphere here. On the bigger forums, they all have the same rules more or less. Prima facia is the rule of no one "pitching" commercial messages, no matter how well meaning are their motives. So the smart ones just contribute to the content and when natural discussion moves in the direction of a solution they might have, their expertise becomes known. What they don't do is lead with the chin with a veritable billboard of their product catalogue!!
In fact, not even signatures are allowed to feature links to commercial real estate like web sites etc
I feel this is absolutely appropriate because otherwise it's the thin end of the wedge and before you can blink every other post is a rhetorical sales message. That's not what I come to forums for. It's YOUR opinion I want......real users......real people......warts n all. I also value our hosts input and wish they would contribute more. If 3rd parties have knowledge and content to offer then let them take part in the discussion. From where I looked, your man was making a clear and unambiguous sales pitch to a highly targeted group of prospects without making any contribution to either the forums costs or its content. If we ever felt the need to have just one hard and fast rule then banning that, in my view, would be it
Thank you for your comments Ken.
I agree polite behaviour is necessary on any forum, even if it is polite disagreement. I was unaware of any ban on advertising and of course have to good manners not to promote competitors nor products that would detract from the Tormek. Also, if I advertise, I give a heads up with [ADV] in my subject so purists do not have to read it.
However, there are products that compliment our use of the Tormek, and when I find one I like to promote it. If I will sell it if I can, but in many cases I just promote it on my website to help others. That helpfulness has kept sharpeningmadeeasy.com a top Google site for over 10 years. My suppliers page lists 43 vendors, I sell products from only 6 of them.
For example, some grinding operations are better done on bench grinders or belt sanders. I used to think that if Jeff were building a house he would use only his Tormek. He was fiercely loyal to Tormek and only added the Durasol polishing compound and the MultiTool sander to his offerings after he was demoted from US distributor to dealer.
Off topic,
Steve, I find your suppliers consolidation page very useful.
Thanks.
FL
Quote from: Rob on May 20, 2015, 09:06:33 PM
In fact, not even signatures are allowed to feature links to commercial real estate like web sites etc
I feel this is absolutely appropriate because otherwise it's the thin end of the wedge and before you can blink every other post is a rhetorical sales message.
Absolutely true and well stated Rob. Allow any of it, "and before you can blink", forums degrade to simply being host to copious, insidiously crafted opportunism.
This forum is small and vertical with well meaning, considerate and respectful posters. The larger forums with more public exposure know the story all too well, and sadly, in order to support their mission must be willing to shoulder the added burden of moderating and have heavier regulations. Let's keep things simple be respectful of our gracious host.
Conversely, ads for a few related products can provide information that is actually useful and interesting. The problem is that in the context of a "discussion" forum it doesn't work, it never works, and ultimately overwhelms and degrades or kills the forum.
Some forums have a vendors area, but I can see why that may not be appropriate for this small, vertical, low maintenance forum.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with the issue of size and scale of this forum versus the larger generic ones. In terms of vendors, it's like I said before, in my view the smart ones recognise the value of the audience to their businesses and they take time and consideration to contribute at the discussion level. Their knowledge and expertise is acknowledged if it has genuine worth and capability in the shape of service or product gets discussed in a natural, problem solving context.
If they don't want to "engage" with their possible customers then they must surely expect to fund their access to specialist target audiences through the advertising rate cards of media owners like specialist knife magazines, woodworking press etc ad nauseum
Steve hasn't done anything "wrong" by promoting his business here because there are no rules! I'm just saying that what this case is highlighting to me is that this is perhaps the only rule we genuinely require on what is otherwise a delightful place to be
Slippery slope conspiracists need not get alarmed. I am fully aware of the need to have honest opinions discussed and will disclose whenever I have a possibly conflicting interest. Just because a salesman likes his product does not mean his support is deceitful of dishonest. Stig, Jeff and I are here to sell Tormeks and improve your use of them. We start with that commercial bias and accept it.
As for what kills forums, there was once a very successful Tormek users forum with nearly 1800 members. It had the type of rules you would approve and a strict moderator. Conversation dried up. The last post was in February. Another forum of professional sharpeners nearly failed because it had no rules and it became clogged with posts by members complaining about other members. Once the handful of complainers were banned the forum thrived.
Confused.....so both rules and absence of rules kill forums?
Steve,
I'm pleased that being ambushed by the Rules Police did not make you leave. It should be noted that you started posting at my request (not for profit). I was familiar with your website and had purchased a copy of your book before we met in Hartville. Talking with you and watching you work, I quickly realized you have a lot of expertise lacking on this forum.
For those who no longer believe the Tormek world is flat, we will do better to also follow your website.
Ken
My hope is not that anyone "leaves" Ken. This isn't a binary proposition. Neither black nor white, simply that content evolves through discussion because it may surprise you to know that the vast majority of people don't want to be bathed in selling messages. I count myself amongst them. Steve has had stacks of AirPlay now so we're all aware of his service and I for one have it bookmarked as yet another useful resource from a knowledgable source
If Steve wants to join in detail discussion to help us all benefit from his experience then great.... Bring it on..... Most welcome. I guess I just don't have quite the "hero worship" thing going on. Celebrity status in my world is earned, not bestowed. My respect for an individual or a legal entity grows as I perceive the efficacy and relevance of the contribution
I'm sure Steve will be just such a chap. But it won't be overnight and it won't be because you tell me so and it won't be because he has some collateral to market. My respect is harder won than that I'm afraid. Nuff said.
The rules are not enforced, IMHE. For example I asked here: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2099.0 about this "sticky" (not stuck): http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1314.0
Which if used would stop a lot of the spammers that we still get, as they use their company/usernames twice.
Unenforced rules, are certainly not clear rules. This place seems to be more self regulating (treat others as you want to be treated), and that can still fall apart when personalities clash, IMHE.
I brought up Herm's jig, in another post, for a couple of reasons:
It was a MODIFIED jig (might cause issues for Tormek)
OUR name for it, could be misconstrued as a Tormek name.
The situations weren't quite the same.
I totally agree they're not enforced. Nor are they documented anywhere to my knowledge But contrary to the bordering on insulting epithet of "rules police" I'm really not in favour of censorship as a rule. I think the culture if this place is kinda cool. It's a bit old school, a bit Old fashioned. I think it is a staggeringly courteous place when compared to pretty much all other Internet chat rooms I've ever encountered in fact
So not rules per say..... No. I'm not a generalist. I am rather fussy about one specifically which is open access to vendors. I think underneath all this I just prefer engineers to sales people. It's no more complicated than that. I think they're more genuinely honest and I trust their perspectives more. Sorry to all people selling, that's just my take based on life experience to date.
The only rules I will accept are those adopted by Tormek AB and posted in full on the forum by the moderator. If someone has a problem with a post, he should private message the moderator and complain.
I believe our self governance has worked well, and I don't care about how unnamed other forums choose to govern themselves.
if we have unenforced rules, I would like to see them.
What does the vast majority of the forum want? I haven't a clue, because the vast majority of the forum does not post.
I know Stig is a very busy person. Whenever I see spam on the forum, I email him and he takes care of it. I encourage others to do the same.
Hero worship? I recognize when others know much more about something than I do and are willing to share that knowledge.
Salesmen? Jeff Farris was the premier Tormek salesman in the United States for many years. No one has questioned his honesty. I certainly don't, nor do I question Steve's integrity. I realize the rest of you are at a disadvantage because you have not had the opportunity to see what I saw in Hartville. Steve's depth of sharpening knowledge is very impressive. We do not have anyone with comparable knowledge active on the forum in other areas. Most of the turning knowledge left with Jeff. I appear to be the only one who has actually used the DBS-22 drill bit sharpener. That's sad, because my experience with it is very little. I know of no outstanding active members in woodcarving. No one seems to have been able to make the planer jig work well. We need expertise, and Steve has this with knives. I noticed the ADV he posted with the topic. He happens to sell the product. So what? Jeff sold a lot of Tormeks and Multitools, as well as Sorby turning tools in the old days. Based on my feelings of trust for Jeff, I did business with his company, sharptoolsusa. I felt well treated, and it never entered my mind to complain about violating any rules.
Ken
Quote from: stevebot on May 21, 2015, 05:50:15 PM
As for what kills forums, there was once a very successful Tormek users forum with nearly 1800 members. It had the type of rules you would approve and a strict moderator. Conversation dried up. The last post was in February. Another forum of professional sharpeners nearly failed because it had no rules and it became clogged with posts by members complaining about other members. Once the handful of complainers were banned the forum thrived.
Are you talking about the Yahoo Tormek users group? I joined it before this, because I found it first. I liked the fact that they have some files there (like the knife guards), but wish they were allowed to post things like the current manual (not a fan of the email address thing), but I am not much of a fan of email based forums. Webpage based are more easily search-able, from anywhere, without having to sign up/in (risking passwords, etc. to keystroke loggers, etc).
Ken, if you check the links I posted, the rule was BY Jeff. When I posted that question, Jeff was still moderating this forum, and not going by his own rule (why I questioned it). A few posts were deleted, in which I and a few others, joked with/about the spammers and that rule and no more was said.
The only way to really see what rules there are, that I can find, is to go through the registration process.
I've been through this forum, and still go through old posts, looking for information. Not always real searchable and the easiest thing to do sometimes, is go page by page, starting with the last page, from when the forum was created and had one section only. Doing that, I have seen what I thought was a little more openness, then when I saw the back and forth arguing, because a member preferred a belt sanding system over the Tormek, for some stuff. We seemed to swing from one extreme to another in that argument (from person going into detail about why they liked that system, to others saying we shouldn't say things about competing systems at all, because Tormek sponsors this forum). I don't remember any moderator chiming in there on any rules OR violation, there of.
If rules were more CLEARLY posted, then I think there would be less of this, here and we could get back to the important stuff.
Well there it is Ken. You trust him. I don't. Pretty straightforward really isn't it? I might end up trusting when it's been earned but it won't be bestowed. I confess to being both a little uncertain and a little uneasy as to why you seem so adamant we ( or perhaps just I) "should" give up that trust so easily. Can't I/we just make up our own minds over time? If his contribution is so worthy then presumably we'll all reach the same conclusion as you won't we?
I just don't get what all the drama is about. We can agree to have different views about this without getting our knickers in a twist
I'll be amazed quite frankly if Tormek change anything with respect to the rules but I for one am firmly in the camp if no commercial messaging. I've seen what it does in other places and it's a negative influence. Expert contribution yes. Open advertising no. But like I say Tormek won't implement it so it's a little academic really
SADW Jeff did jump on posts that mentioned competing product pretty much all the time (I fell foul of that numerous times myself in my search for a faster grind). He quite often pm'd to warn off the offender rather than publicly embarrass because he was a good custodian of the culture of this forum. Frankly I would contend it was Jeff's loyalty to Tormek coupled with is extremely engaging personality that built the very thing we hold dear
He certainly "earned" the right by answering thousands of questions and investing a decade of his life to build this site. It's culture is entirely attributable to his very hard work. He's probably the only "salesman" that earned my respect as an engineer :-). Because he walked his talk. He never overly pushed product either. He just responded to questions and offered solutions. It's completely different to advertising in my view. A heck of a lot more subtle for one thing
I have spoken my mind plainly on this issue. I will speak no more about it.
Ken