A message poster on Reddit submitted the following photograph in the Reddit sharpening forum -
https://ibb.co/6WQCcRT
He says that you need to replace the "knop" on the knife jig with a bolt in order to bypass an obstruction.
What do you think ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/sharpening/comments/xbw3sw/tormek_question/
Quote from: Ken98660 on September 14, 2022, 03:24:23 AM
A message poster on Reddish submitted the following photograph in the Reddit sharpening forum -
https://ibb.co/6WQCcRT
He says that you need to replace the "knop" on the knife jig with a bolt in order to bypass an obstruction.
What do you think ?
That's correct. If you want to hone in the horizontal position (without an FVB), you need to replace the black knob with a screw, otherwise the knob will hit the supports. (Ken mentions it occasionally. (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4931.msg35306#msg35306)) :)
I'm not sure what "FVB" stands for.
Quote from: Ken98660 on September 14, 2022, 04:38:43 AM
I'm not sure what "FVP" stands for.
FVB = Front Vertical Base... it changes the support from a horizontal to vertical position. (Talked about HERE (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2635.0))
For quite awhile, I was bothered that the T4 (including earlier versions such as the T3) supposedly could not sharpen longer knives or hone knives held in the SVM-45 jig. With some experimenting, I learned that neither of these limitations were correct with some very minor modifications.
The length issue, with both the T4 and T8, was easily solved with the longer US-430 support bar. I have long recommended this longer support bar as a second support bar for knife sharpeners.
Tormek designed its knife jigs to work with its traditional knife sharpening technique. Sharpening (grinding) is done in the vertical position (edge leading) using the jig. Honing is done handheld edge trailing. The locking screws with large plastic knobs eliminate the need for tools. This system works very well, as designed. The problems begin when users want to hone with the knife held in the jig, something outside of the original design parameters.
Replacing the locking screw on the knife jig is a good start, but only the start. You will need to replace the jig locking screw and both of the horizontal sleeve locking screws. These screws are all the same M6 thread. (6mm outside diameter and 1mm pitch between threads) The easiest replacements are "socket set screws" also known as "grub" screws. These are available in different lengths. The exact length is not critical; around 10mm works well. A good local hardware store should carry them. You will need three socket set screws. If you don't already have them, purchase a small set of metric Allen wrenches. These are a hardware store staple and should be part of your tool kit. You will find many uses for them. Total cost for the Allen wrenches and socket set screws is around $20 USD.
Once you have replaced the three screws, you are almost done. There is one high spot on the SVM-45 which requires just a little metal removal. This in no way interferes with the functioning of the jig. You will find this high spot the first time you slide the jig with knife mounted across the support bar. Your Tormek wheel will make quick work of it.
I needed to file a rough spot on the weld of my US-430, not a big problem and one which I believe Tormek has corrected.
Using the socket set screws is completely reversible by just reinserting the original screws. It is not as convenient as using a FVB, although for occasional users, it accomplishes the same task at much lower cost.
Ken
You should post some pics of your setup alterations... (one thing that's always missing in these posts). :)
Quote from: Ken S on September 14, 2022, 12:03:15 PMUsing the socket set screws is completely reversible by just reinserting the original screws. It is not as convenient as using a FVB, although for occasional users, it accomplishes the same task at much lower cost.
Ken
I read in a different thread somewhere that it's possible to purchase an FVB. As someone who plans to use the machine on a regular basis, as the heart of my knife sharpening business, I want to use a jig for honing because the freehand method is too erratic and imprecise. You don't happen to know where I can go to purchase an FVB ?
Rich Colvin (https://www.colvintools.com/index-Sharpening.html)
" I want to use a jig for honing because the freehand method is too erratic and imprecise."
I have personally observed an expert Tormek sharpener precisely hone knives and chisels freehand, as well as watching Wolfgang do the same in the online class videos. Their skill did not happen overnight. I am not opposed to using FVBs; I have actually purchased two of them. (They have other uses in set ups.) However, I believe you short circuit your sharpening if you do not master freehand honing.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on September 15, 2022, 03:58:29 PM
" I want to use a jig for honing because the freehand method is too erratic and imprecise."
I have personally observed an expert Tormek sharpener precisely hone knives and chisels freehand, as well as watching Wolfgang do the same in the online class videos. Their skill did not happen overnight. I am not opposed to using FVBs; I have actually purchased two of them. (They have other uses in set ups.) However, I believe you short circuit your sharpening if you do not master freehand honing.
Ken
There is something to that. When I learned to sharpen chisels 52 years ago, we were not allowed to use an attachment. It had to be freehand.
Not because it was better, but to train a steady hand.
So in our carpentry textbook was the phrase, "it is the craftsman's honor to do it without attachments." Expensive words that we as adolescents did not understand
Yes this is an interesting discussion. I came to Tormek after a few years hand sharpening knives on bench stones. I would say that I am competent on the bench stones and it's something I still love doing from time to time when time and money is not an issue. When these things are an issue and precision is an issue then Tormek wins for me. I have tried free hand honing on Tormek and like other contributors had mixed results. Using an FVB took the guess work AND the skill out of it but for me the results are much better and under my control.
I am also aware that in the 'free hand sharpening' community there is a great deal of elitism associated with 'gitting bud' on the bench stones. Please let's not let that creep in with this excellent community where sharing information on so many levels is so useful for all contributing.
So if you want to use a FVB you can discover how and the pros and cons.
If you want to free hand hone on the Tormek leather wheel you can discover how and the pros and cons......
Wise posts, Wim and Sir Amwell. I did not mean to stir up controversy with my last reply. One of the things which fascinates me about the Tormek is that it is versatile enough to incorporate many techniques. Use whatever honing technique works for you, although I believe a well rounded sharpening background should include being skilled in both techniques. I do not consider either technique more elite than the other.
Ken
Quote from: Sir Amwell on September 15, 2022, 09:38:37 PM
So if you want to use a FVB you can discover how and the pros and cons.
If you want to free hand hone on the Tormek leather wheel you can discover how and the pros and cons......
I would second that line of thought. Guided sharpening allows for excellent results with much less time and effort than would be required to sharpen everything handeld on the Tormek. Why then would guided honing degrade (short circuit ?) your honing skills, more than guided sharpening degrades your sharpening skills ?
I would anyway bet a few bucks on a new set of vertical sleeves on the T-9 or whatever it will be called.
Cheers,
Nick.
I found this video on YouTube .... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UckPmizllk0 The guy in the video shows how to use an FVB in conjunction with the FVB software. While the video is very enlightening in some ways I can't really say that I understand what he's doing exactly in order to arrive at the correct sharpening angle. He sure makes it look extremely complicated !! This guy is obviously a professional and I like the end result that he's able to achieve toward the end of the video. It's kind of discouraging in a way because I don't really understand the software and all of the high-falutin' mathematical computations.
Ken,
"The guy in the video" is the late Vadim Kriachuk, better known here as "wootz" a highly regarded, longtime member. Wootz was the inventor of the FVB. You can learn a lot about his techniques by studying his Knife Grinders you tubes on his channel of that name. Once you understand and work with it, the math is not "high-falutin'".
Ken
PS you should be aware that Vadim passed away earlier this year. Knife Grinders web site has not been updated to indicate that they no longer sell most of their products, including their FVB. Their software is still available; however, they claim it only works with their products. As much as I liked wootz, at this point, I would look for another source for an FVB and software.
Quote from: Ken98660 on September 17, 2022, 06:06:21 PM
I found this video on YouTube .... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UckPmizllk0 The guy in the video shows how to use an FVB in conjunction with the FVB software. While the video is very enlightening in some ways I can't really say that I understand what he's doing exactly in order to arrive at the correct sharpening angle. He sure makes it look extremely complicated !! This guy is obviously a professional and I like the end result that he's able to achieve toward the end of the video. It's kind of discouraging in a way because I don't really understand the software and all of the high-falutin' mathematical computations.
Keep it simple... there's no need to understand the math involved. Measure the wheel, measure the distance between the Stop Collar and the blade edge, plug it and the angle into one of several calculators available (see links in my signature), and set the USB height based on the answer. (And don't get caught up trying to take measurements in the hundredths...) ::)
If you do want to see the math, download Dutchman's book on the subject (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1849). You don't need to understand it all to use it... but it will give you an idea where all this came from.
Thanks you guys ... I really appreciate the help !
I know how to put a fairly decent edge on a knife using the freehand method on a bench stone, but the Tormek is something that's totally new and different. I never paid a great deal of attention to the honing stage of knife sharpening until now. It was my usual practice to simply grind a burr on a coarse stone and then to finish by swiping a couple of passes on a fine stone. It has always been my experience that the more that I would run my knife on a fine stone, the duller it would become. It never occurred to me that honing on a strop or on a fine stone is the key to getting a really sharp edge.
Ken,
Here is a link to a good learning reference about honing:
https://youtu.be/40AoJ8UBprI
Enjoy.
Ken
If it sounds complicated then it is. The purpose of software is to help you, not to confuse you.
There are basically two ways to approach the sharpening angle computation via software :
- measurement to some reference on the machine (and you need accurate measurement of some dimensions)
- measurement to the wheel itself (and it works with or without FVB, it would even work in a snap with Wolfgang's dual-MB-100 "spaceship" setup).
You can look at @cbwx34's signature or This thread (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4181.0) for more.
Cheers,
Nick.
Forum member RichColvin has a page on his website, that, along with a picture, is a good example of how a calculator works (measuring directly to the wheel)...
https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexCalcProj.html
(Just note that this calculator measures to the bottom of the support bar, while most (like Calcapp) measure to the top).
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5094.0;attach=6761)
I don't understand something. The gentleman in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNQR9vMCXac appears to be honing a chisel on the Tormek model T-8 with a sharpening jig and with the universal support in the horizontal position, however, he doesn't appear to be using a Front Vertical Base. Can someone please explain this to me ? I was operating under the assumption that an FVB is necessary when honing with a jig with the universal support in the horizontal position.
Good question, Ken.
The Front Vertical Base is designed to provide clearance between the support bar and the locking screw on the knife jig. This is only a problem when working on the bevel where the locking screw is under the jig. It is also only a problem when the jig travels far enough for the locking screw to bump into the horizontal support bar.
Unlike knives, a chisel only has one bevel. The locking screws are always above the jig and well clear of the support bar. The FVB offers no advantage with sharpening chisels. In fact, the Anglemaster works very well setting the angle with the flat backs of chisels.
The FVB is a convenient accessory for setting bevel angles for honing knives.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on September 26, 2022, 06:05:10 AM
Good question, Ken.
The Front Vertical Base is designed to provide clearance between the support bar and the locking screw on the knife jig. This is only a problem when working on the bevel where the locking screw is under the jig. It is also only a problem when the jig travels far enough for the locking screw to bump into the horizontal support bar.
Unlike knives, a chisel only has one bevel. The locking screws are always above the jig and well clear of the support bar. The FVB offers no advantage with sharpening chisels. In fact, the Anglemaster works very well setting the angle with the flat backs of chisels.
The FVB is a convenient accessory for setting bevel angles for honing knives.
Ken
Thank you, Ken, for answering my question. I have another one for you, if that's alright ....
Let's say that I'm using the T-8 machine with the FVB setup. Is there any reason why I can't simply use my angle master to locate the correct sharpening angle ?
Ken, another very good question, and one with strongly felt differing opinions. I do not feel that I am the best person to answer it. My knife sharpening is limited to my personal (mostly kitchen) knives. I use these knives as my learning laboratory. I have slightly more than a rational person would have; however, I do not sharpen professionally or in high volume.
I have developed my own method of setting my knife jigs. An online search for "kenjig instructions" will bring up the PDF I wrote several years ago. I need to update it. Recently, I have found that my T1 and T2 satisfy my everyday knife sharpening requirements. We have more active (and vocal!)knife sharpeners on the forum. I am certain you will receive more replies.
Ken
Quote from: Ken98660 on September 27, 2022, 12:21:18 AM
...
Let's say that I'm using the T-8 machine with the FVB setup. Is there any reason why I can't simply use my angle master to locate the correct sharpening angle ?
On a knife or are you now talking chisels?
If knives... just keep in mind that the AngleMaster doesn't account for blade taper from spine to edge. So, depending on the knife, you can be off several degrees. Using something like a calculator or the Kenjig eliminates this error, and also is more accurate and just as important, more consistent. You can also better match the angle between sharpening and honing.
After a short use, I also found using an app/calculator easier than dealing with the Anglemaster.
It just depends on the results you want.