When I purchased my first Tormek in 2009, the T7 was essentially the only choice in the US. At the time, I wanted to sharpen my woodworking tools and was not especially interested in sharpening knives. I have no complaints; the T7 is a fine machine and continues to serve me well. A chance opportunity to study with Tormek knife guru, Steve Bottorff, opened my mind to the possibility of sharpening knives.
In August, during my visit to Tormek in Sweden, I had the opportunity of watching Johan Englund, Tormek's worldwide manager for the T2, demonstrate the T2. From Johan, I learned that the T2 is a specialty machine, not a machine "just" for knives. It deftly sharpens specialty non knife kitchen blades as well as cutlery. Some of these blades would be difficult to sharpen with a traditional Tormek.
I have been using my T2 more recently. As a senior citizen, my health issues make it difficult to use the stairs to reach my basement workshop. I am very grateful to have my T2 on my dining room table.
My thinking has changed to believing that a new Tormek sharpener specializing in knives might be better served by starting with a T2 instead of the tradition T8. I do not mean to discourage anyone from purchasing a T8, only to say that I believe for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.
Attached is a link to the online class Johan does with Sebastien:
https://www.youtube.com/live/dCe3bKc5Ym8?si=cnhnC3HWRK07Lu2z
Ken
I couldn't agree more with your comments. I have two T8's and struggle with the setup and adjustment of the support bar for proper angle alignment. Started using the T2 with a black magic marker and results were outstanding. Purchased the coarse and fine grit wheels to compliment the 600 grit supplied wheel and now use it as my go to sharpener for bulk or house knifes where I want to get a nice edge quickly.
Well said Ken, if you haven't been using your T2, honestly give it a try, you'll be impressed.
Ken,
Quote from: Ken S on October 09, 2023, 10:47:50 AM[...] for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.[...]
I am not sure I follow you there: what would said sharpener do with the T-2 once they have the T-8
especially if their workshop is not downstairs ? The only advantage I see with the T-2 is that it requires less of a learning curve. Aside from that, it is almost as pricey, almost as big, much less flexible.
To elaborate abit on the last point, countless discussions have arisen here on how the bevel will widen at the tip if you keep a constant angle, and a professional sharpener will not want to change the look of their customers' knives. The T-2 forces you to use a constant angle. The T-2 generates dust when you do heavy work, such as reprofiling a knife. Not to mention the fact that it will do just knives.
I believe Tormek advertise the T-2 as targeting restaurant chefs who want to maintain their knives. I'm at a loss as to how the T-8 would be supplemental and not the primary sharpening tool of a pro sharpener.
I wonder : why didn't you install your T-8 Black edition on your dining room table, with no water in the trough ? I think it makes for an even more impressive display of sharpening prowess...
Quote from: Stovepipe on October 09, 2023, 04:37:22 PMI have two T8's and struggle with the setup and adjustment of the support bar for proper angle alignment.
I guess that may lead to a sound an advice for aspiring professional sharpeners (as that was the OP's intended audience) : Wait before you no longer struggle with the sharpie trick on your first T-8 before you purchase the second one.
The T-8 angle adjustment mechanism with the MicroAdjust nut allows for minute adjustments to the sharpening angle, so much so that one can decide where on a 1mm-wide bevel they want to remove the ink (as can be necessary on a rather convex bevel). It is much coarser on the T-2.
If it is just knife sharpening that one desires/requires then isn't the T-1 a better/less expensive option?
When I decided to post this topic, I was not trying to stir up controversy. I expected and welcome other points of view. The ideas I put forth in this topic seem to work for my requirements. They may or may not work for others. As such, I offer them as suggestions.
Over the years, I have read many complaints about how long it takes to sharpen knives with a Tormek. This delay can be caused by many sources. I detect a common thread of wanting to decrease time per knife in order to increase profit. That's fair enough, as long as the increase in productivity does not come at serious decrease in quality.
The T2 can handle the majority of kitchen and pocket knives with little or no adjustments. Even cleavers are easily done with a modicum of practice. It really shines with steak knives.
I think a skillfully used T2 can easily meet most sharpening needs, especially in a farmers market environment where speed counts. I will concede that a customer with a several hundred dollar knife might want a more polished job, probably wanting to include the 4000 grit SJ-250. He should be exp cited to be charged for this extra service. The typical customer is probably delighted to have his Victorinox knives razor sharp, sharpened as the Swedish Culinary Team knives are sharpened.
Ken
Quote from: GeoBoy on October 10, 2023, 02:57:58 AMIf it is just knife sharpening that one desires/requires then isn't the T-1 a better/less expensive option?
Geoboy, the T1 is another workable option. I would study them both; each has pros and cons.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 09, 2023, 10:47:50 AM...
My thinking has changed to believing that a new Tormek sharpener specializing in knives might be better served by starting with a T2 instead of the tradition T8. I do not mean to discourage anyone from purchasing a T8, only to say that I believe for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.
...
Might be worth pointing out that, (depending on how you interpret this), there's a significant reduction in the T-2 warranty used for a business...
Quote from: https://tormek.com/en/support/warranty8-year warranty*, 5 years + 3 years, upon registration within 90 days from purchase.
Applies to all Tormek T-2 with purchase date December 1st, 2020, or later (regardless of what is written on the package).
* When used for a professional sharpening service the warranty of Tormek T-2 Pro Kitchen Knife Sharpener is 2 years.
Clue? ???
CB,
For me, the real issue is do I have faith in Tormek to manufacture quality, long lasting product and to stand by it.
I realize we live in an era with many unscrupulous manufacturers and vendors. "Lifetime warranty" frequently becomes whatever the vendor chooses to make the lifetime of the product instead of the buyer. In Ohio, the legal definition of a "lifetime" is seven years, which I think is shameful.
I also realize that I have had more direct experience with Tormek than most of the forum. Frankly, I value my faith in Tormek much more than a piece of paper. I expect my T2 to last ten to fifteen years, at least. I do not use it professionally, although I would have the same longevity expectations even if I did. I felt the same even before I visited Tormek. My visit reaffirmed my belief in Tormek.
I sent a screen shot of your post to Johan in Sweden. I asked him to investigate the number of T2s now defective due to professional overuse.with his travel schedule, it may take several days to receive an answer, which I will post. Let the facts decide the issue.
Ken
- Single purpose, no scissors or woodworking tools sharpening ever.
- Pivoting only, no way to implement the "lifting" action that is advised with the T-8/T-4.
- No 4000-grit.
- No precise angle setting.
- More heterogeneous scratch pattern.
- Warranty limitation for professional sharpening businesses
Are those not facts ?
All this for saving a professional sharpener a few hours on training ? It makes no sense to me. Kind of saying a professional housekeeper would be better off buying a Roomba instead of a traditional vacuum cleaner.
Quote from: Ken S on October 10, 2023, 06:03:22 PM...
Frankly, I value my faith in Tormek much more than a piece of paper.
...
I've concluded you're a Mythbusters fan...
Quote from: Adam SavageI reject your reality, and substitute my own.
(Or maybe a Dr. Who fan?) Quote from: Ken S on October 10, 2023, 06:03:22 PM...
I sent a screen shot of your post to Johan in Sweden. I asked him to investigate the number of T2s now defective due to professional overuse.with his travel schedule, it may take several days to receive an answer, which I will post. Let the facts decide the issue.
...
So, my T-2 breaks, and I realize that if I tell Tormek I used it in a business, it voids the warranty... ::)
Quote from: cbwx34 on October 11, 2023, 02:08:39 PMSo, my T-2 breaks, and I realize that if I tell Tormek I used it in a business, it voids the warranty... ::)
But no worries, you'll have your backup T-8 up and running in no time ;) !
Johan sent a prompt, thorough reply to my email. In fairness to him, I want to verify that I have his permission to post it on this public forum. I will keep you all posted.
Part of the Tormek museum is a collection of almost every model manufactured by Tormek. The "T2 Concept" of a machine for specialized restaurant use sharpening goes way back with Tormek, back through several models. Even the present generation, the T2, was thoroughly test marketed long trusted restaurant affiliates locally in Sweden before the testing and marketing was expanded.
I have no idea whether or not there is an internationally or nationally accepted standard of bevel angle accuracy for kitchen knives. I doubt that most chefs know or care. A chef knows if his knife is cutting like it should. If these trusted, known Swedish chefs had not agreed that their knife sharpness was up to standard, I honestly believe that Tormek would have gone back to the draft board or scrapped the project.
I will post more information as I receive it.
ken
I'm not sure the question was "can a knife be kept sharp enough for a restaurant chef with a T-2", but rather "is it a good idea for a professional knife sharpener to start with a T-2 to get a head start, and have a supplemental T-8".
Those are two very different questions.
I understand the T-2 market as precisely being those chefs who want to *not* use the services of a professional sharpener.
As promised, here is my email from Johan Englund, Tormek's T2 Manager. As a courtesy to Johan, I have waited to post until I received his permission. The emai is not edited:
Hello Ken,
Thanks for your mail.
Answer to your question is actually none. We have had zero Tormek T-2 coming back that have been overused and worn out.
Yes , we have had few machines coming back, less than 8, that had motor problem and few machines with problem with the switch.
Otherwise, we have had people wearing out the diamond or honing wheel and the plastic clip on the jig. These items are consumables, so it is not under warranty.
Since the Tormek T-2 Pro Kitchen is based on our T-4 model it has the same industrial motor that is tested for 10000 hours, so if you are a chef and sharpen 2 hours a week it´s 96 years or if you sharpen 5 hours a day/7 days a week it is 5,5 years. These machines have all the certification for Intertec and other similar institutions regarding tests for use in damp/wet environment plus that we here at Tormek does long tests of our machines, so we know that they are good.
So, Tormek T-2 is a longlasting machine and for our environment this is good, less articles that will go in the bin because of poor quality.
As you know we are a company that does the opposite of other companies and build machines that shall last for a long time instead of selling new, plus you can repair our machines.
We think of our environment.
Have a great day.
Best regards,
Johan Englund
Marketing Manager T-2
I suspect one would find similar very low return figures with any of the Tormek models, or products from other high end companies.
Ken
It doesn't address your original post though. So now, "screenshot" this and ask him what he thinks of the original advice...
Quote from: Ken S on October 09, 2023, 10:47:50 AM...
My thinking has changed to believing that a new Tormek sharpener specializing in knives might be better served by starting with a T2 instead of the tradition T8. I do not mean to discourage anyone from purchasing a T8, only to say that I believe for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.
...
... specifically, buying a T-2 for a knife sharpening business over a T-8. That's what this is about.
No. The idea was mine. If you don't like it, which is your right, I will take the FLAK. It obviously is not a good fit for all users; I never thought it would be. I still believe it would be useful for some of our members. How many of our members are "knife only", and how many of them wish they could cut down their sharpening time per knife?
Ken
I would like to examine the complaints against the T2. I do this to approach a better understanding, not to try to prove a point.
First, I would like to examine what we call a "pro sharpener". would a pro sharpener be expected to sharpen essentially everything in the scope of the Tormek? Including 22mm drill bits; molding cutters; and things like long thickness planer blades seems like a very constraining definition. In this case, the T8 is the logical choice as the primary machine. I would also choose the T8 (or T4) for a sharpener whose bag of tricks included chisels, bench plane blades, and knives. depending upon the percentage of sharpening was knives, I might lean toward the T4/8 or the T2.
The T2 is almost as pricey, almost as large, and much less flexible. I won't comment on "pricey". Admittedly, all Tormek products are priced as the high quality item they are. the T2, like the T4, comes in at about half the weight of the T8. and, flexibility depends on how one defines it.
Admittedly, the T2 will not sharpen chisels. However, it will handily sharpen knife and kitchen related items. It can make quick work of protruding bolsters andXXXXXX (sorry, I can't remember the name of non steel knives)knives. It also sharpens such kitchen items as curved food processor knives and mandolin knives. It is flexible within its intended design parameters.
• Single purpose, no scissors or woodworking tools sharpening ever.
• Pivoting only, no way to implement the "lifting" action that is advised with the T-8/T-4.
• No 4000-grit.
• No precise angle setting.
• More heterogeneous scratch pattern.
• Warranty limitation for professional sharpening businesses
I leave it up to you to evaluate how important these factors are for you and your sharpening. I am not saying do not purchase a T8 or T4. If your sharpening needs requires sharpening scissors and/or woodworking tools, this is a no brainer.
Pivoting only? I can not believe that the Tormek design team would have casually glossed over this. still, I believe this is a question worthy of a future discussion. The discussion should include the intended purpose of the knives being sharpened. Are they professional knives designed for working or knife block princesses designed to look pretty?
No 4000 grit? The SJ caused quite a stir when it was first introduced. I wonder how many early devotees are still using it in a time means money environment?
No precise angle measurement: among my collection of machinist's tools, I have a set of small plates precisely ground to varying degrees of surface polish. Often the blueprints call for a part to be ground to one of these established surfaces. this serves two purposes, making sure the part is sufficiently polished AND that the machinist does not built excessive cost into the part by overbuilding it. I have heard forum chatter about trying to achieve "tenth of a degree" bevel accuracy. What is the purpose of this, except to inflate the sharpener's ego?
This reply is already too long.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 12, 2023, 05:20:23 PMNo. The idea was mine. If you don't like it, which is your right, I will take the FLAK. It obviously is not a good fit for all users; I never thought it would be. I still believe it would be useful for some of our members. How many of our members are "knife only", and how many of them wish they could cut down their sharpening time per knife?
Ken
I'll exit with a post directly from a Tormek rep...
Quote from: Stickan on September 28, 2017, 09:35:10 AM...
For a sharpening business, we don't recommend the T-2.
A T-8 with the jig system with SVM-00/45/140 can sharpen way more models of knifes. A knife sharpened and honed with the leather wheel gives a sharper knife than most common new knifes.
This is why we recommend the T-2 to restaurants and chefs, who wanted a fast and reliable machine, that gives them sharp knifes 24/7 in the kitchen.
...
(The whole post is probably worth a read.)
CB,
You have chosen a good exit point. Yes, that quote was typical of Stig in 2017. However, Stig has been evolving since then. He has been influenced by the reactions of the Swedish Culinary Team to the T2. Admittedly, these are working, Michelin quality working chefs. while I don't know how they would do sharpening pretty princess knives, they certainly know their way around working knives.
I think Stig has made a giant step forward.
i believe we have squeezed as much useful juice as this issue has to offer. Let's move on.
Ken
With your permission, I'd like to comment on a few issues you raised during your long post, as it feels a bit strange to me to rebutt arguments in bulk and then ask to move on.
Quote from: Ken S on October 12, 2023, 05:59:24 PMI would like to examine the complaints against the T2.
No complaints, really, just reacting to the advice in the initial post which I honestly think could mislead an aspiring pro sharpener.
QuoteFirst, I would like to examine what we call a "pro sharpener". would a pro sharpener be expected to sharpen essentially everything in the scope of the Tormek? Including 22mm drill bits; molding cutters; and things like long thickness planer blades seems like a very constraining definition. In this case, the T8 is the logical choice as the primary machine.
I fail to see why someone would have to need "everything" the T-8 does to warrant buying a T-8. I'm not sure many people even on this forum sharpen "everything" the T-8 can sharpen. So, "Everything" ? Most probably not. Scissors ? Chisels ? I'd say...probably ?
QuoteI won't comment on "pricey".
I'm not sure I said the T-8 was pricey as an absolute statement. I'm saying the price difference does not appear to me as a real deterrent for the T-8 option, especially in the context of a "pro sharpener". Especially is one has to keep in mind that they might need a "supplemental" T-8.
QuoteAre they professional knives designed for working or knife block princesses designed to look pretty?
Then if the "pro sharpener"'s target market is "kitchen knifes and rotary blades only, where the customer doesn't really care about how the edge looks in the end", I have no objections anymore.
QuoteNo precise angle measurement [snip] I have heard forum chatter about trying to achieve "tenth of a degree" bevel accuracy. What is the purpose of this, except to inflate the sharpener's ego?
Not trying to judge the sharpener's (or anyone's) character or ego. Precise angle setting (not measurement, I agree no one really cares what the actual angle is to a 10th of a degree) allows to more quickly find the setting that allows to reproduce an existing angle with the sharpie method. Which in turn is key for sharpening speed because there is minimal material removal.
I am all for constructive questioning; that's how we grow. I have purchased two FVB's, one from Knife Grinders and one from Colvin Tools. I have nothing but good comments about either of them. I do not remember reading any tolerance specifications or tests with either of them. I have confidence in Rich, as I did in Vadim. I also have confidence in Tormek.
I will be curious to read the posted forum thoughts about the MB-102 in a year or two.
Ken