I would be very interested to know member's experiences and thoughts on the use of a rock hard felt wheel to deburr knives.
I am asking because I have had very limited success with it following Wootz's guidance and protocols.
So I'm wondering if others have had problems and any tips to iron out those problems.
Thanks in advance.
That is very interesting. A rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste is the only angle-controlled step in my honing process, followed by stropping on a hanging leather strop. Angles used are always higher than the grind angle, by 1-2º. Many use a spray diamond solution, but I started in way back when Vadim recommended diamond paste and I've stayed with it.
It might help others understand what you are doing and what sorts of issues you're having if you described your honing process in more detail. Maybe even some photos.
Thanks for the reply Rick.
As an example. Today I tried using Vadims protocol for a Swibo knife.
Edge set at 15 degrees/side on CBN 1000.
Initial honing on paper wheel at +0.4 degrees. Bess 169 ( inline with Vadims predicted Bess 150 at this stage for 12 degrees/side).
Rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond spray at +1.6 degrees. Bess 177 (way off Vadims predicted Bess 85 at this stage).
Final honing on paper wheel with chromox and 0.25 diamond paste at exact. Bess 154 (again way of predicted 30-50 Bess.
Now whilst I'm not concerned at the exact Bess scores ( I gave up chasing sub 50) what is worrying is that this felt wheel stage invariably lowers the initial honing sharpness which suggests to me that the edge is being rounded slightly at this stage?
All measurements are bar to stone using calcapp and as accurate as I can make them.
Using very light pressure on the felt wheel.
As an aside I usually get sub 100 Bess by honing mainstream steels at +2 degrees and then exact on a leather strop on a worksharp. And there is some guess work in that as to the flexibility of the belt.
You will notice that the paper wheels don't seem to be the problem here but the felt wheel stage.
The only real success I've had is for global knives for which Vadims protocol does work for me. All others for different mainstream knives keep failing for me at the felt wheel stage.
Any ideas?
With the following protocol I get 2-digit BESS readings with my Victorinox (Swibo) knives:
Setting the edge 15 degrees/side on CBN 1000.
Honing on Tormek leather wheel loaded with 5 µm diamond paste at 15 degrees/side.
Three passes each side on the rock hard felt (density 0,65 g/cm3
wheel loaded with monocrystallin 1 µm diamonds.
Final pass on chromium oxide bonded with linseed oil varnish on the leather wheel.
Typical readings 60 to 80 BESS.
When I started this protocol I used a felt wheel with 90 gcm-1. Never reached <120 BESS.
With the paper wheels I got results with very high variation in BESS values.
All these steps I learned from Vadim (RIP).
Best regards,
Drilon
Of course 90 gcm-3
Thanks Drilon. Just a query, what angle on the felt wheel?
I've also not had much luck with the felt wheel. I rarely use it nowadays unless I have a particularly stubborn burr. I'm wondering if it's because I use a 90 gcm felt instead of the lower density that Wootz recommended for common steels?
I also don't love the paper wheels as I think they heat the steel to quickly.
My typical process for German-type kitchen knives is: 400 CBN --> 1 micron on leather belt @ +2°, PA-70 on leather belt at edge angle.
Sometimes I use .5 or .25 micron instead of 1 micron and it doesn't seem to make much difference.
Result with this protocol is a BESS score in the 85-110 range. Comes down 10-15 points if I go to the 1000 CBN wheel before hitting the belts.
I can't say I've had much improvement in my BESS scores when using my 90 gcm felt wheel with 1 micron diamond spray. I have noticed it's good for polishing up the side of the knife though.. :D
Quote from: Sir Amwell on May 14, 2023, 10:22:06 PMThanks Drilon. Just a query, what angle on the felt wheel?
17,5 degrees for the Victorinox knives.
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I'll keep trying with it for a little while before I give up on it completely.
Don't give it up completely. Set it aside for the present. As your experience level changes, you may think differently.
ken
Yes Ken of course you are right. And from what others have said it maybe that the paper wheels are the real issue here as the results using them appear very random also. The protocol that does work for me using the felt wheel, for global knives does not involve using paper wheels. So again thanks all for input, it's given me fresh ideas to mull over in the small hours!
With my limited technique and experience, BESS measurements only show an improvement after the felt wheel for hard and brittle steel, not for common ductile steel. Global knives seem to fall somewhere in the middle.
As for the Chromox honing, even using light pressure and a FVB, in the best case there is no degradation of the BESS score, and usually I lose about 40-50 BESS.
My guess is there was a lot to Vadim's technique that went way beyond wheel material, compounds and angles. He probably had a way of holding the knives, applying pressure, keeping things constant, and some kind of a more fundamental understanding of how the edge was transforming while he worked. His BESS scores were the compound results of this and muscle memory built after sharpening thousands of knives.
I remember when Vadim ("Wootz") first joined the forum. Although he may best remembered for areas like felt and paper wheels or CBN wheels, his use of these evolved from a mastery of basic Tormek technique. This video he did is one of my favorites:
https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0
It demonstrates the possibilities of standard Tormek technique. All of my knives are "common knives", quality knives made of either high carbon or stainless steel. Those of us wishing to start a knife sharpening business will probably spend most of their time sharpening this kind of knives. I hope we thoroughly master basic technique before venturing into techniques for more cotillion knives.
Ken
The video demonstrates the possibilities of standard Tormek technique... with a FVB ;)
That's correct. As Vadim demonstrates using his Tormek with the SG-250, leather honing wheel and PA-70, I can overlook a little commercialism with the FVB.
Ken
I have been trying the rock hard wheel and my experience has been mediocre. I now use 2 leather wheels, I finish with a .1 paste and my results are getting much better, at 15deg I can frequently get below 100 BESS. I set my honing angle about 1 to 1.5 deg higher than my grind angle.
Well done!
Ken
Thanks again everyone. Lots to think about.
It seems that the jury is out on the felt wheel then.
Perhaps it is best left for harder steel or quality knives ( as Vadim termed them).
The interesting thing with that is that many of Vadims protocols for these types of steel forgo the felt wheel and rely on exact or sometimes a very slight reduction in angle. These steels fall into the negative burr category I think?