https://youtu.be/PrRwBTil1l8
The long awaited Tormek advances knife sharpening online class
Coming June 2, 9:30 AM eastern time.
Don't miss it! (If you do, it will be posted on Tormek's you tube channel.)
Ken
4 hours to go !
This was a very good class. Worth watching a second time to listen fo little bits of knowledge.
I think we could use another hour or more actually showing sharpening of different knife styles we may come across. A lot of fine points tp learn.
It is very detailed and very interesting.
Still, they sometimes can't seem to get to acknowledge that "hey, sometimes we don't come up with the best idea". What they are saying with knife tilting and pivoting one way or the other makes sense, essentially: try with the sharpie and see what looks better. But then they say "some computer programs are more precise than our angle master but in the end that doesn't matter because of all the 3D movements". [Edited for the typo]
Yes it does : errors compound themselves, and using a precise software will make sure that not only are you better off for the part of the blade that is parallel to the USB, but also you will be able to replicate the same inital position on different stones. So whatever deviation you introduce with the lifting/pivoting combined action will not come on top of an already biased initial position. And the angle master is indeed a pain in the butt for most knives. I say either use TormekCalc or the sharpie, dont bother with the Angle master for knives. It's OK for standard chisels though.
Quote from: tgbto on June 02, 2021, 05:53:44 PM
It is very detailed and very interesting.
Still, they sometimes can't seem to get to acknowledge that "hey, sometimes we don't come up with the best idea". What they are saying with knife tilting and pivoting one way or the other makes sense, essentially: try with the sharpie and see what looks better. But then they say "some computer programs are more precise than our angle master but in the end that doesn't matter beca".
Yes it does : errors compound themselves, and using a precise software will make sure that not only are you better off for the part of the blade that is parallel to the USB, but also you will be able to replicate the same inital position on different stones. So whatever deviation you introduce with the lifting/pivoting combined action will not come on top of an already biased initial position. And the angle master is indeed a pain in the butt for most knives. I say either use TormekCalc or the sharpie, dont bother with the Angle master for knives. It's OK for standard chisels though.
My .02... Tormek misses the point with the "calculators" in regards to knives... the Angle Master (WM200) simply can't account for the taper most knives have from spine to edge... that varies and can be several degrees in some cases. The calculator eliminates this.
Overall an excellent video. I got a bit worried when they started out with 'edge leading vs edge trailing' as to me that's not really an 'advanced' topic. But the remainder was very good... I finally got a bit of clarity on Wolfgang's unusual (to me) clamping style with the SVM-45.
Gentlemen,
I do not disagree with your comments. However, if you write off the class based on those thoughts, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. (an English language idiom for missing the most important points)
Brad, while using edge leading or edge trailing can be a basic concept, I would suggest that a more sophisticated understanding of matching the grinding direction to the choice of grinding wheels and material to be ground qualifies as a more advanced topic.
TGB and CB, I think it is well documented that I am not a devotee of the Anglemaster, especially for knives. I have found the TTS-100 a more useful tool for my uses with chisels and plane blades and the kenjig for knives. I do have occasional needs for my Anglemaster. I am a frequent user of the black marker.
I found that the class covered many subtle techniques, techniques which have evolved over fifty years of Tormek use.
I am not able to absorb all of these from only watching the class once. I will be watching it numerous times, as I have done (and continue doing) with the other classes. I keep learning and have not been disappointed.
The Tormek lends itself to different levels of learning. The typical user will soon feel confident. The more serious student will find no lack of challenge.
John, I agree with you, as I believe do Sebastien and Wolfgang, that one hour is not enough time to fully cover advanced knife sharpening. As Wolfgang said at the end of the class, "We could go on all night". I hope that they will next season.
Ken
I totally enjoyed the video. It gives a lot of food for thought, and I'm not dismissing it in its entirety, at all.
I just disagree with their evaluation of the respective benefits of the Angle Master for knives and the computer programs. I think they'd be better off saying "go with the sharpie, google what a kenjig is, or download one of these nifty computer programs", instead of dismissing it on shaky grounds that would cast a doubt on the rest of their reasoning, however good the latter is. I loved the half-moon jigs idea, it was quite illustrative. And I also need to watch it a few more times.
Cheers,
Nick.
Nick, I am not going to defend the Anglemaster. I have seen it used skillfully with both knives and chisels. It is used by a couple sharpeners whose skills I respect. I used it to originally set up my automated bevel procedure for chisels and plane blades. I also invented the kenjig because I was having difficulty with the Anglemaster with knives. So, I give it mixed reviews.
The kenjig and those nifty computer programs are all "third party products". I would not expect any company to happily endorse third products, even if they are available at no cost. Black markers are actually third party; however, they are universally available.
I understand your feelings; however, is you allow them to cast a doubt on the rest of Tormek technique, you will not come out ahead.
Ken
Ken you're right they don't have to endorse any third party product. And I'd be fine with that.
They don't have to say "in the end it doesn't matter" when in fact it does, either. When they do that they - in my opinion - stray from the image they deserve of a company that strives for continuous improvement.
As for the Angle Master, I dare anyone, Tormek guru or not, to successfully use it on say, a standard , spot-on-15dps Fibrox knife. The only knife I can think of that would measure okay for the angle master is a traditional japanese blade such as a usuba. But that's probably a very bad idea to sharpen it on a tormek.
But don't get me wrong, my intent is just to share whatever few reservations I has watching this video with other Tormek enthusiasts because I think debating is in the best common interest. I've been proven blatantly wrong on more than a few misconceptions I had, and I feel that has sped up my learning curve a lot. Not using the AngleMaster for knives would have spared me quite some time messing up knives then putting them back where I wanted them.
Again, I feel the rest of the video is VERY interesting. It has me thinking a lot on whether or not I should try sharpening hawkbills on my T8, and with what jig. I'm not convinced it's a good idea yet, but I will certainly give it a try with a cheap opinel one.
Cheers,
Nick.
Nick,
Sebastien and Wolfgang have said numerous times throught the online classes that there are no right or wrong ways to use the Tormek. I think the issues of the Anglemaster and the computer programs fall in that group. Wolfgang and Sebastien teach the method they know, the traditional Tormek method. It is solid and tested over a long time.
Is it as precise as a computer program? No. there is the issue of knife tapers. However, there is also the inherent inaccuracy of measuring tools. This effects the accuracy of vernier, dial, and electronic calipers as well as the Anglemaster to varying degrees.
One of the major factors effecting how much accuracy you require is the kind of sharpening you do. High end sharpening like Knife Grinders offers can be and should be very demanding. Someone paying to have an expensive knife sharpened is entitled to that. Someone paying five dollars to have his knife sharpened at the local farmers market should receive a workmanlike job but probably no frills. The traditional Tormek method is more than accurate enough for this job.
Absorb what benefits you from the classes. For the parts which don't suit you, chart your own course. The Tormek will serve you regardless.
Ken
Quote from: tgbto on June 04, 2021, 05:32:11 PM
I totally enjoyed the video. It gives a lot of food for thought, and I'm not dismissing it in its entirety, at all.
I just disagree with their evaluation of the respective benefits of the Angle Master for knives and the computer programs. I think they'd be better off saying "go with the sharpie, google what a kenjig is, or download one of these nifty computer programs", instead of dismissing it on shaky grounds that would cast a doubt on the rest of their reasoning, however good the latter is. I loved the half-moon jigs idea, it was quite illustrative. And I also need to watch it a few more times.
Cheers,
Nick.
Is that "half-moon" jig downloadable? Or can someone please give a hint how to make them, guess it is really simple when you know ???
Hi Urban,
it should not be too complicated to construct a similar template.
Basically it consists of two circles around the pivot points of the jig collar. The circle's radius should (approximately) match the usual projection length of the Jig with knife, usually something around 140mm.
I hope the attached files make it clear enough.
Mike
I believe the Tormek is versatile enough to adapt to many working methods. I use the Anglemaster only very occasionally to set up the tool (a modified TTS-100) I use for setting chisels and plane blades. I do not use it with knives. I do not mean to imply that the Anglemaster will not work with knives, only that I have not successfully used it. That is a skill I hope to learn it eventually; however, it is a low priority for me as other methods serve me well.
I think it is unfortunate that the Anglemaster has become so prominent in the way we evaluate the online class. I suggest we put the Anglemaster on the back burner if we don't like it and concentrate on the many other parts of the class. It may be something we return to later, or we may just move on with other methods. As the old saying goes, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
Ken
Quote from: micha on July 18, 2021, 02:03:01 PM
Hi Urban,
it should not be too complicated to construct a similar template.
Basically it consists of two circles around the pivot points of the jig collar. The circle's radius should (approximately) match the usual projection length of the Jig with knife, usually something around 140mm.
I hope the attached files make it clear enough.
Mike
Well, that was easy, almost embarrassingly easy :-[ ;D
Thanks :D
Hi,
Somewhat surprised reading that the angle master would not work when used on knives and especially standard kitchen knives.
This is my main method when I set new knives up, and after that, I use the marker method. After I set knives up at a wanted angle, and sharpened them, I used the CATRA Laser goniometer which showed that I achieved my goal.
Best,
Stig
Quote from: Stickan on July 19, 2021, 06:56:53 PM
Hi,
Somewhat surprised reading that the angle master would not work when used on knives and especially standard kitchen knives.
This is my main method when I set new knives up, and after that, I use the marker method. After I set knives up at a wanted angle, and sharpened them, I used the CATRA Laser goniometer which showed that I achieved my goal.
Best,
Stig
It's only been talked about many times since I've been here... not sure why you're "somewhat surprised".
In fact, as I typed this, I recalled having this conversation with you at least once....
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4236.0
... and I know I've brought it up before, for example...
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3777.0
... as have others.
The AngleMaster does not compensate for blade taper from spine to edge. Works OK on kitchen knives, cause they're isn't that much taper... and the CATRA device isn't accurate enough to catch the difference.
I didn't feel like bringing it up, but since it's up...
I think everything works when you set up a blade, even eyeballing it. In the videos they mostly use it as a rough estimate then end up checking with the sharpie. The kenjig or spreadsheet method is both more accurate and faster when you want a given angle. Which probably only matters if you change stones or want a controlled honing method.
cbwx34,
Happy that you can use other ways of measurements that give you the result you need for your knives.
tgbto,
Most times when we do demos or sharpens knives on a tradeshow, we replicate the original edge mostly. Using the marker method is a great way to replicate most edges.
Best,
Stig
Quote from: Stickan on July 20, 2021, 04:06:45 PM
Most times when we do demos or sharpens knives on a tradeshow, we replicate the original edge mostly. Using the marker method is a great way to replicate most edges.
It seems to me that's about the only thing that works when you want to replicate the edge from heel to tip.
As for the debate with the anglemaster, the concern I have is that it introduces a systematic error. Not a random one related to the precision of the measurement scale or the vernier or some roundings here and there, but one that is here because the taper angle of the blade is not taken into account by the process. Even with kitchen knives, something that will offset your angle each time by 2° is problematic when on the other hand one talks about "12° is a bit acute, 15 is OK and 20 is too much". Because then it translates to "with the angle master 10° is a bit sharp, 12° is on the daring side of OK, and 15 is on the safe side of OK".
When I purchased my first T7 in 2009, the only good online video instructions were those made by Jeff Farris, who was the US Tormek rep. Jeff was a very experienced, expert Tormek user. Among Jeff's teachers was Torgny Janssen, the inventor of the Tormek. Jeff's videos are well done and demonstrate what I consider traditional Tormek technique. They are designed to produce very sharp edges with essentially the equipment included in the original box. (Admittedly, for the knife video, one needs to purchase the SVM-45 knife jig.)
Fast forward, I have watched Stig skillfully sharpen chisels and knives using the same traditional Tormek technique used by Jeff almost twenty years ago. Black markers and Anglemasters have worked for many years.
Those earlier days were much simpler. The SG-250 was the only Tormek wheel in the US.
Today we have more choices. The extra cost can be modest or quite expensive if one opts to start with a set of CBN or diamond wheels. As always, the Tormek is a versatile machine. For me, the Tormek is a sharpening machine for woodworking tools, which also works very well for knives. Knife people may feel differently.
Until knife designers finally make flat knives, the Anglesmaster will work more easily with more advanced tools like chisels and plane blades. :)
Ken
Just to be sure : I certainly don't pretend I can get my knives as sharp as most Tormek enthusiasts, let alone consummate professionals such as Jeff or Stig.
It may just be a question of what we mean by "the anglemaster has worked for many years". If this tool is used for setting the edge angle, well at 15° it will set a 14° angle on knife A, a 13° angle on knife B, and a 13.5° angle on knife C, plus/minus a random error due to eyesight and tolerances. A method based on Dutchman's calculations and a stone-to-usb measurement may put a 15.3° angle, or a 14.7° angle, or a 14.9° angle, due to eyesight and tolerances.
The anglemaster may give you a very sharp knife, no doubt, just not one set at the angle you desire, even on very simple geometries such as a paring knife or a thick santoku. I bought a Tormek and am very happy with it because it allows me to increase my sharpening precision and consistency. I will continue to favor methods that help with that, which is the reason I'm so passionate about a statement that "in the end it doesn't matter".
Cheers,
Nick.
Quote from: tgbto on July 21, 2021, 08:25:45 AM
...
It may just be a question of what we mean by "the anglemaster has worked for many years". If this tool is used for setting the edge angle, well at 15° it will set a 14° angle on knife A, a 13° angle on knife B, and a 13.5° angle on knife C, plus/minus a random error due to eyesight and tolerances. A method based on Dutchman's calculations and a stone-to-usb measurement may put a 15.3° angle, or a 14.7° angle, or a 14.9° angle, due to eyesight and tolerances.
...
Problem is... on some knives the spine to edge taper can be 4-5° on each side. So, imagine if you think you're putting a 15° edge on, and you're putting a 10-11° edge on it? Sometimes it does matter...
I don't have a problem with the AngleMaster itself... the problem is, Tormek doesn't acknowledge this and just tell people how to deal with it. Like I said in the earlier thread I referenced... when they had the opportunity, instead they swapped out the knife. It's an obvious issue that is inexplicably ignored.