Tormek Community Forum

Hello all!

Long time forum lurker and professional sharpener here. I%u2019ve been running a moderate to high traffic sharpening business for the last year and a half or so, using the t4 and the standard SG-200 stone. I sharpen scissors, plane blades, chisels, and turning tools, but most of my business comes from local family's chef knives- not super high quality, but high volume and returning customers. I recently got an opening with a high quality catering business, and was realizing that my sharpening game needed to be upped.
A little background- I love the strop and honing compound for most woodcarving edge tools- I find the microscopic rounding and polishing to be extremely beneficial to longevity and smoothness of finish. However, when sharpening kitchen knives, the microscopic smoothing and rounding over caused by the strop can be detrimental. In my experience, you need flat or concave mirror polished surfaces for a supremely efficient edge. My current technique is to use the fine side of the sg200 on the t4 for sharpening, then take 1 verrrry light stroke on either side of the blade to remove the burr. This leaves a relatively decent, slightly sawtoothed edge, perfect for slicing vegetables and cutting meat. My ideal edge would be %u201Ctoothy polished,%u201D as it would last longer then the standard 1k grit edge but still slice through fibers with ease.
   Back to the question. For the most part, the t4 has served me well. Occasionally I have to take a break due to the duty cycle, and I find the smaller size impedes sharpening of larger turning tools, but on the whole, it%u2019s been decent. The price of the SJ-200 is almost the difference between the cost of the t4 and the stripped version of the t8. I%u2019d like to upgrade to a t8, but I%u2019m not sure about the stones.
      Should I get the SJ-250 in addition to the standard? I%u2019ve read some criticisms about the 2j-250 being too soft, catching knives and taking chunks out of a $$260 stone. Not ideal. In addition, with the volume of work I do, I worry about longevity. In a year I%u2019ve gone through the normal 2G200 and started on the next. Would the sj necessitate an intermediate stone? Or would the standard sg250 at maximum polish still work?
      Alternatively, I%u2019ve seen some interesting results with rock hard felt/paper. Any and all recommendations are welcome. 

May you be the sharpest knife in the drawer, and not a dull tool.  ;D

Surely you know that anyone taking "chunks" out of the SJ250 is sharpening into the stone as opposed to with the stone. I don't see why you would need to go with it anyway. The standard SG 250 will do a more than adequate job of sharpening. Its larger radius may even preclude using the side of the stone for you. It may not win a "Bess" test but the average Joe will never know. I have no experience with either diamond or CBN wheels. As for buying a stripped down T8, I think you should look carefully at one with a stone and truing tool or even more included. Package deals are often/usually more cost effective.

Thank you Jeff-

Ah, that makes sense. Sharpening direction would be crucial. Agreed- the sg200 is definitely nice for standard sharpening. That's the thing- anybody can do standard sharpening, I'd like to be the above and beyond person who they go to for supreme sharpness and ease of use. I think either the SJ250 or the xf diamond wheel can do that. These people are not looking for the "average joe" sharpening. Thank you for the suggestion about the package deal- do you think it would be worthwhile to get duplicates of the turning tool? I already have one from the t4, which is why I was looking at the stripped version. I'm in touch from Wolfgang from advanced machinery- an excellent human who is very reasonable with regards to the stripped t8 pricing.

If you're running a business... I'd put the money towards a T-8. 

p.s.  You can keep the T-4... when the stone gets too small on the T-8, you can move it to the T-4 and get more use out of it.

That's my vote.

Great idea, thank you. Any input on the sj250 vs diamond?

The Tormek Diamond Wheel is 1200g not 12,000... and leaves a finish around the same as the SG graded "fine".

Whoops, good catch. Thank you.

Not an expert here but I would say get the SJ and a bare T8, its Christmas!

Toothy and shiny is something Ive been exploring in other threads over the last couple of days. To be honest if your totally removing the burr with the leather honing wheel which according to Vadim you cant do and your customers are happy with the results then giving them the shiny finish is only going to impress them more and shouldn't make your knives perform any less. I think it will give you the extra mile it sounds like your looking for. The only thing to take into consideration is running costs, maybe you could polish one knife for free and let them decide if they want to pay slightly more for the added running cost to your business. I have used mine a fair bit and its still in perfect condition polishing into the edge with no probs but it had dropped a few mm because it needs regular cleaning, I have never trued this one.

(https://i.imgur.com/561sO5hh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EAOsYBZh.jpg)

Good luck, I am certain there will be way more informed replies.

Alan

"That's the thing- anybody can do standard sharpening, I'd like to be the above and beyond person who they go to for supreme sharpness and ease of use." There was/is  a person on this forum that said they only used the SG 250 graded coarse in their business.

Quote from: jeffs55 on January 01, 2021, 04:29:38 PM
Surely you know that anyone taking "chunks" out of the SJ250 is sharpening into the stone as opposed to with the stone. I don't see why you would need to go with it anyway. ...snip...

I take a little bit of issue with the blanket statement about not grinding into the SJ stone.  I've been doing just that for 100% of my SJ use over 2 1/2 years without ever taking a chunk out of it, and that is even after severly damaging it in a fall and putting huge cracks in it (that have closed up) and sustains truiing without issue.  I say that anyone taking chunks out is using too much pressure.  I think all SJ stones should have radiuses put on both edges to reduce chip-out as the truing tool exits (and yes, I know some say "Do Not Exit" the truing tool or else you willl chip it out, but I do it all the time without issue.  It is a matter of speed).

Quote from: cbwx34 on January 01, 2021, 04:56:13 PM
If you're running a business... I'd put the money towards a T-8. 

p.s.  You can keep the T-4... when the stone gets too small on the T-8, you can move it to the T-4 and get more use out of it.

That's my vote.

I'm with CB here.  Sounds like you need to invest in a T8 for several reasons and doesn't even need to be justified by it being Christmas. 

Quote from: cbwx34 on January 01, 2021, 05:01:53 PM
The Tormek Diamond Wheel is 1200g not 12,000... and leaves a finish around the same as the SG graded "fine".

Definitely, the Tormek Extra Fine Diamond wheel (DE-250) is around 1200 grit whereas the Tormek SJ stone is around 4,000 grit and are for totally different functions.  In my process, the DE is the final grinding step and the SJ is the first deburring/polishing step.  The DE actually grinds whereas the SJ polishes much more than it grinds. 

Rick

Quote from: jeffs55 on January 01, 2021, 05:53:25 PM
"That's the thing- anybody can do standard sharpening, I'd like to be the above and beyond person who they go to for supreme sharpness and ease of use." There was/is  a person on this forum that said they only used the SG 250 graded coarse in their business.

Not sure who that was/is, but I only use the SG graded fine (using a 1000 grit diamond plate for grading), along with the Blackstone (SB) (without grading, only truing) when I use these matrix stones.  SB provides the coarse step, SG the fine step, followed by either honing on the leather wheel or SJ/felt w/1µ diamond paste. 

Rick

Quote from: jeffs55 on January 01, 2021, 05:53:25 PM
"That's the thing- anybody can do standard sharpening, I'd like to be the above and beyond person who they go to for supreme sharpness and ease of use." There was/is  a person on this forum that said they only used the SG 250 graded coarse in their business.

There is also another guy here who runs a business and his customers prefer the finish of the SJ, forget who, he may join in but he admits the edge does not hold as long, not sure if he has tried felt though to de root....

A thought on having both a T8 and a T4: I recently purchased a ten inch rock hard felt wheel. With the water trough removed, it fits perfectly in my T4. The 120 RPM motor of the T4 is slightly faster than the 100 RPM motor of the T8.
The T4 is also lighter and more compact; it is a useful complement with the T8, especially since you already have the T4.

Think creatively; the Tormek is a very versatile machine in skilled hands.

Ken

Quote from: RickKrung on January 01, 2021, 06:02:55 PM
Not sure who that was/is, but I only use the SG graded fine (using a 1000 grit diamond plate for grading), along with the Blackstone (SB) (without grading, only truing) when I use these matrix stones.  SB provides the coarse step, SG the fine step, followed by either honing on the leather wheel or SJ/felt w/1µ diamond paste. 

Rick

Rick, do you use a process of:


      SB, then
      SG (graded to 1,000 grit), then
      SJ (or felt) ?


Rich

Hi Jesse,

My $0.02

-as others have said, I would definitely go for the T8 if for no other reason than run time.

-if I were in your shoes, to add 'something extra' for your customers, my first investment would be a frontal support mount (several options) with the associated software.  That way you can get into controlled-angle honing which in my opinion will give a performance boost to the longevity of the edges you create.

-in a straight choice between SJ and the DE wheel I would go for SJ.  I think a well-graded SG will give you a result close to the DE anyways, but the SJ will bring new options and opportunities for what you can do...

All the best,

Brad

Thanks for all the info everybody!

Good to know about the grinding pressure/direction, Rick. What's a good source for felt wheels? I can't seem to find any decent ones the right size. In tandem with the SJ, would you use diamond paste? If so, what grit? I've worked with pretty much every kind of hand stone- arkansas, japanese water stone, diamond, silicon, etc, but I've never used felt wheels before. I assume they're essentially very hard honing wheels? The hardness sounds great- I've always found that squishier/more padded materials like leather never left as good an edge as bare MDF or float glass/sandpaper.

"I take a little bit of issue with the blanket statement about not grinding into the SJ stone. " What I meant was that I would bet that if any chunks were taken out of the SJ stone it was because of grinding into the stone. I did not say not to grind into the stone but that if there were chunks removed, that was why. I too, grind into and away from the rotation direction.

Copy, Jeff. Understood. Thank you for clarifying.

Quote from: RichColvin on January 01, 2021, 06:37:16 PM

Quote from: RickKrung on January 01, 2021, 06:02:55 PM
Not sure who that was/is, but I only use the SG graded fine (using a 1000 grit diamond plate for grading), along with the Blackstone (SB) (without grading, only truing) when I use these matrix stones.  SB provides the coarse step, SG the fine step, followed by either honing on the leather wheel or SJ/felt w/1µ diamond paste. 

Rick

Rick, do you use a process of:

      SB, then
      SG (graded to 1,000 grit), then
      SJ (or felt) ?

Rich

Rich,

It varies, depending on several things, including how much effort I want to put in. 

1) SB>SG @1000 > leather with Tormek compound,
2) SB>SG @1000 > SJ > rock hard felt w/ 1µ diamond paste, or
3) Tormek Diamond wheels DC>DF>DE > SJ > rock hard felt w/ 1µ diamond paste.

If an edge is very dull, before any of the above is either

1) A Norton 3X 64 grit 8" traditional grinding wheel on the T8 in the water bath.  More recently, I received a 10" traditional grinding stone as a gift, which I've set up with an appropriate sized bushing to run similarly as the Norton 3X.  Very nice to have similar sized wheels even though there isn't the same consistency as with the three diamond wheels.  The Norton 3x setup has been documented here in previous posts.  (First photo below is of the Norton 3x, second the newer 10" no-name wheel), or

2) A Veil 1x42 belt sander, using Tormek jigs for angle control (extensive modifications and setup to make possible, previously documented here and on the BESSEX).  Very important features are the variable speed controller that has been further slowed to a crawl AND a reversing (DPDT) switch installed, in addition to the physical configuration and setups. 

Rick

Quote from: jeffs55 on January 01, 2021, 07:16:52 PM
"I take a little bit of issue with the blanket statement about not grinding into the SJ stone. " What I meant was that I would bet that if any chunks were taken out of the SJ stone it was because of grinding into the stone. I did not say not to grind into the stone but that if there were chunks removed, that was why. I too, grind into and away from the rotation direction.

Quote from: sharpening_by_jesse on January 01, 2021, 07:19:14 PM
Copy, Jeff. Understood. Thank you for clarifying.

Ah, good clarification, Jeff.

Rick

Thank you so much Rick! Very good to know. For the sake of the wallet- is the SB necessary? Or would the SG->SJ->felt work?

Quote from: sharpening_by_jesse on January 01, 2021, 07:16:22 PM
...snip...
Good to know about the grinding pressure/direction, Rick. What's a good source for felt wheels? I can't seem to find any decent ones the right size. In tandem with the SJ, would you use diamond paste? If so, what grit? I've worked with pretty much every kind of hand stone- arkansas, japanese water stone, diamond, silicon, etc, but I've never used felt wheels before. I assume they're essentially very hard honing wheels? The hardness sounds great- I've always found that squishier/more padded materials like leather never left as good an edge as bare MDF or float glass/sandpaper.

Below are sources of felt wheels, only one of which I have used. 

Posts #10 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4572.msg32806#msg32806) and #18 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4572.msg32817#msg32817) (above) in this thread what I use is mentioned, 1µ diamond paste, same kind as Knife Grinders shows on their web page about felt wheels, but I think they don't sell it.  THK Diamond Tools (https://www.thk.hk/online-cart.php?cid=38) is where I got mine.  I got several grits, but only use the 1µ. 

Knife Grinders (http://knifegrinders.com.au/05Equipment_FeltWheels.htm)
Rock-hard felt wheel for Tormek + diamond spray + extension shaft
250x45x12 mm

Duro-Felt (http://durofelt.com/image_38.html)
FW1011RHB 10" 1" 1" Rock Hard - 0.80 gm/c3   $76.00 each + Pop-Up Bushing

Supergrit (https://supergrit.com/WoolFeltPolishingWheels)
10" X 1" X 1" WOOL FELT POLISHING WHEEL (USA)  Rock Hard $95.00

Quote from: sharpening_by_jesse on January 01, 2021, 07:47:23 PM
Thank you so much Rick! Very good to know. For the sake of the wallet- is the SB necessary? Or would the SG->SJ->felt work?

The SB wheel is not at all necessary.  Using the SG trued/graded coarse then graded fine followed by whatever deburring/honing you use works just fine.  I use the SB because I have it and I can use it as the coarse first step and keep the SG at 1000.

In all of this "basic" stuff, to me, the most valuable next addition would be something coarser than the SG or SB, meaning either a traditional grinding wheel mounted to your Tormek or a variable speed belt grinder, as discussed in Post #18, mentioned/linked above. 

Rick

Quote from: BradGE on January 01, 2021, 06:58:42 PM
...snip...
-if I were in your shoes, to add 'something extra' for your customers, my first investment would be a frontal support mount (several options) with the associated software.  That way you can get into controlled-angle honing which in my opinion will give a performance boost to the longevity of the edges you create.
...snip...
Brad

I think not enough has been made of Brad's suggestion about controlled angle deburring and honing.  This is accomplished best with the use of a "Frontal Vertical Base (http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop.htm)" (FVB) and associated angle computation software.  Wootz of Knife Grinders first developed the FVB and a software app.  The FVB can be made by many themselves, but KG sells them and his software for setting it using the horizontal USB position.  Other free or near free versions of angle computation apps are available and work well.  Most are oriented to using the height of the USB bar from the top of the case, but, like CB, I've found using the distance from the USB to the grinding wheel the fastest, easiest and most accurage method.  At least two of the apps support this method. 

Along with the FVB and software, you should buy a copy (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NQ48WG7) of Wootz's deburring book (http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop.htm) and study it deeply (not just read it). 

And also do a lot of reading of past posts on these and many other related topics, accessed from the main forum menu.  I see that you first registered in Sept. of 2020, only five months ago.  If you have lurked and only viewed posts in the time frame since you registered, I highly recommend delving back into the archives.  There is a wealth of information to be had. 

Rick

Thank you again Rick. I'm yet again blown away by the kindness of those on this forum- thank you all for taking time out of your new years day to discuss sharpening minutiae in great detail, for a random stranger on the internet. Thanks everybody- I'll check out everything recommended. Cheers from cold new england, and best wishes for the new year.

You are very welcome, Jesse and welcome to the forum.  You have hit upon one the greatest benefits of this forum.  It has been this way since I joined and I have benefited from it greatly.

Rick

One of my favorite quotes keeps coming to mind: "Man is the only animal with the one true religion, all seven of them". (Mark Twain) Knife sharpening with the Tormek seems that way to many of us.

Over the years, I have had the opportunity of knowing several Tormek knife sharpeners that I regard as experts. They have all developed working methods which suit their particular requirements. They all work differently. The farmers market sharpener who must sharpen over a hundred knives during a Saturday morning has certain technical needs. A very high end sharpener who caters to very expensive knife owners, professional chefs and meat packing plants will have different priorities. The home sharpener who sharpens kitchen knives for his family with a basic Tormek will have different expectations than the same sharpener who is willing and financially able to invest several thousand dollars. While I realize that all of these priorities are different, I do not feel that any particular set of priorities is "better" than the others.

I am primarily a woodworking tool sharpener. I think 2021 is a good time to focus more intensely on my true sharpening passion and concentrate on woodworking tools.

Ken

Thank you Rick... FVB was the name I was trying to 'say without saying'... I wasn't sure if it was OK to mention specific brands.   But I certainly like the FVB - so much so that I've got two, even though I only have one T8.  That's because unfortunately KG no longer ships to the UK, but if/when I add another Tormek to my workshop the FVB is the first accessory I'd want...

I got mine from Germany so there is still availability to the UK, quite a bit cheaper too.

Hello again- thanks again for all the info. The book everybody mentioned is on the way. I've posted a poll about the best course of action. From what I've gathered the final option seems to be the consensus from knife grinders AG and various other people, but I've also seen everything else. Any input is always massively appreciated.